newyorknewyork wrote:Also Ty Lawson has been the best player on that team for the last 3yrs not Gallo.

not really...

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2013.html

newyorknewyork wrote:Also Ty Lawson has been the best player on that team for the last 3yrs not Gallo.

newyorknewyork wrote:

martin wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

martin wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:I will say I really overrated the value of our package for Melo. I was wrong about that. We really did trade spare parts and low level picks.

TFK.. you always talk about what a tragedy it is to pay Melo $20mm a year plus, but the reality is $20mm a year is much better spent on Melo then a combined Gallo/Chandler/Mosgov.

That right there is the gist of it. You can stick spare parts around Melo.. guys like Toney Douglas, Landry Fields, Copeland, bla bla bla and you make the playoffs. Stick the same spare parts around Chandler/Gallo/Mosgov and they are a lottery team.

I dont love Melo here, we cant build this thing right to get the most out of his talent with this retarded owner so its pointless, but in terms of value? I once thought the Knicks got fleeced. We didnt. we made out just fine. Its the moves after we totally yacked up

Yet when Denver replaced Melo with those three, they starting winning far more games.

that's it, right? Straight 1-for-1 and no other thought on other parts on team? Can we go deeper?

Can we? Yes, I'm sure if you look deep enough you'll find plenty of irrelevant distractions.

pretty sure we can find some very relevant ones too. Your look into things is very shallow man.

Exactly! Landry Fields was viewed as an asset during this time. He ended up being let go for nothing. If Fields became a player the way or was moved for another piece that became a player. Same with Toney Douglas. In hind sight, Amare is amnestied, Billups contract is allowed to expire and we have major cap space this past off season for guys like Paul, Howard, Al Jefferson, Josh Smith, Tyreke Evans, Oj Mayo, Monta Ellis, Kevin Martin, Iggy, Jack etc.

I like Gallo and Chandler but they haven't accomplished much in the nba to be put on the pedestal that TKF seems to put them on. If they were doing things like Curry, George, Harden I could understand. There playoff numbers are pretty bad, Gallo is starting to come off as injury prone. Portland, Minny, Golden State, LAC, Houston all seem to have surpassed them and younger more talented players then them are entering the NBA every yr.

Yeah it gets more evident every year that the deal wasn't bad at all, we traded a lot, but nothing compared to what was originally thought. Definitely signifantly less than the deal Denver had with the Nets if Melo had agreed to an extension. Its all the moves around it that hurt us.

Gsus wrote:

tkf wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

Vmart wrote:

MSG3 wrote:Problem is we are screwed if he leaves. We'll have a lot of cap space, but who do we build around? If we preserve cap space, we will have given away a sure lottery pick. What a mess. My preference in order from most to least is:

1) This team figures it out and makes a SMART move with Shumpert (I'm resigned to the fact he's as good as gone)
2) If the team struggles all year and gets bounced in the first round Melo still decides to stay and we build around him.
3) Trade Melo if he doesn't commit to staying and rebuild starting this coming off season. Hopefully we can get a lottery pick in return, but unless he opts in with the team he's traded to I don't think we'll be getting a lottery pick.
4) Melo walks, we have to rebuild, we learn another tough lesson by having given away an almost sure lottery pick in the original deal that brought him here.

It is what it is at this point. Just keeping Melo at a max out deal will guarantee the Knicks go no where. At this point does it really matter between making playoffs to get bounced and rebuilding towards something that will last, and result in something that might be more special.

There's always the possibility that Melo will opt out and take less money with the Knicks if they think they can bring along some other pieces. I think this is HIGHLY unlikely, but don't think it's out of the realm of possibility since he's already been on the record as wanting to win here in NY.

If Melo leaves NY his brand will take a hit and he will have even more pressure to win. If he goes to LA and doesn't win his brand takes another hit. Smart thing for him to do is resign with a plan to help the Knicks improve, which obviously involves taking less money. Maybe he won't do that, but i won't judge him on it until i see what happens. He brought respectable basketball back to NY last season so most fans appreciate that, lets see if he takes it a step further and takes less money to get support here.

Let's not kid ourselves Kidd and Wallace brought respectable basketball back to NY. They were the main reason for the fast start. They were the ones who provided leadership. It was Amare who brought the Knicks back initially. Melo had a part in last year I will not deny that.

oh he did have a part, but the problem is, most believe that he dragged us to 54 wins.... I said early last season that kidd was team mvp for the first month or so..

LMAO...riiighht...because an 82 game season is one month long. So wtf happened after Kidd fell off after that month? Oh yeah, we lost a few games..but Melo missed some games too. So did Tyson. So you give credit for Kidd being MVP the first month, but totally forget the monster April Melo had, the 30 40 50 point games, that 13 game winning streak. Oh that's right..I'm sorry, it was Pablo Prigioni.

LMAO...you make very good points, and are one of the smarter posters here, but you muck it up with your bias and tunnel vision.

thought experiment:

had kidd remained fresh would the knicks have been more effective in the playoffs?

rhetorical question:

have you seen the team play this season?

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Also Ty Lawson has been the best player on that team for the last 3yrs not Gallo.

not really...

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2013.html

He is more efficient, gets a higher combination of ast, rebs, stls then Gallo. But forget all that.

Lawson playoff stats for that last 3 yrs, 21-8 44%, 19-6 51%, 16-4 50%. Gallo playoff stats, injured, 13-5 36%, 12-3 43%.

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Also Ty Lawson has been the best player on that team for the last 3yrs not Gallo.

not really...

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2013.html

He is more efficient, gets a higher combination of ast, rebs, stls then Gallo. But forget all that.

Lawson playoff stats for that last 3 yrs, 21-8 44%, 19-6 51%, 16-4 50%. Gallo playoff stats, injured, 13-5 36%, 12-3 43%.

so you didn't look at the list i provided? sounds like you have been hollingered.

this list it has to do with the effect the player has on the team on both ends of the floor and how much of a difference he makes when on the floor and off the floor. according to the formula, lawson last regular season is far closer to a zero-sum player and gallinari is ranked up there with nowitzki, pierce, aldridge as a positive-sum player.

both lawson and gallinari make around 10.5 million a season. who provides better value at this point in time? mind you i really like lawson, but he remains undeveloped as an orchestrator. it would help if he were able to work on his off hand and maintain his dribble. gallinari meanwhile has to rediscover his 3-point shot and he becomes an all-star. that and as you noted remain healthy.

martin wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

martin wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:I will say I really overrated the value of our package for Melo. I was wrong about that. We really did trade spare parts and low level picks.

TFK.. you always talk about what a tragedy it is to pay Melo $20mm a year plus, but the reality is $20mm a year is much better spent on Melo then a combined Gallo/Chandler/Mosgov.

That right there is the gist of it. You can stick spare parts around Melo.. guys like Toney Douglas, Landry Fields, Copeland, bla bla bla and you make the playoffs. Stick the same spare parts around Chandler/Gallo/Mosgov and they are a lottery team.

I dont love Melo here, we cant build this thing right to get the most out of his talent with this retarded owner so its pointless, but in terms of value? I once thought the Knicks got fleeced. We didnt. we made out just fine. Its the moves after we totally yacked up

Yet when Denver replaced Melo with those three, they starting winning far more games.

that's it, right? Straight 1-for-1 and no other thought on other parts on team? Can we go deeper?

Can we? Yes, I'm sure if you look deep enough you'll find plenty of irrelevant distractions.

pretty sure we can find some very relevant ones too. Your look into things is very shallow man.

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

martin wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

martin wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:I will say I really overrated the value of our package for Melo. I was wrong about that. We really did trade spare parts and low level picks.

TFK.. you always talk about what a tragedy it is to pay Melo $20mm a year plus, but the reality is $20mm a year is much better spent on Melo then a combined Gallo/Chandler/Mosgov.

That right there is the gist of it. You can stick spare parts around Melo.. guys like Toney Douglas, Landry Fields, Copeland, bla bla bla and you make the playoffs. Stick the same spare parts around Chandler/Gallo/Mosgov and they are a lottery team.

I dont love Melo here, we cant build this thing right to get the most out of his talent with this retarded owner so its pointless, but in terms of value? I once thought the Knicks got fleeced. We didnt. we made out just fine. Its the moves after we totally yacked up

Yet when Denver replaced Melo with those three, they starting winning far more games.

that's it, right? Straight 1-for-1 and no other thought on other parts on team? Can we go deeper?

Can we? Yes, I'm sure if you look deep enough you'll find plenty of irrelevant distractions.

pretty sure we can find some very relevant ones too. Your look into things is very shallow man.

Exactly! Landry Fields was viewed as an asset during this time. He ended up being let go for nothing. If Fields became a player the way or was moved for another piece that became a player. Same with Toney Douglas. In hind sight, Amare is amnestied, Billups contract is allowed to expire and we have major cap space this past off season for guys like Paul, Howard, Al Jefferson, Josh Smith, Tyreke Evans, Oj Mayo, Monta Ellis, Kevin Martin, Iggy, Jack etc.

The topic Martin and I were discussing is that Denver started playing better once they replaced Melo with Gallo, Chandler, and Mozgov. So I don't see how Fields, Douglas, Amare, or any of those other players are relevant.

I didn't feel like looking up Fish original post so I just replied quoting martin. My comment wasn't really apart of you and Martin's convo which is y I highlighted the part I wanted to comment on. Sorry bout that.

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Yeah, it's only been 3+ years of disappointment in this era

Is every yr without a title a disappointment? We won 54 games last year. 2 games from the ECF. Bad ending, but a fun year.

for what we gave up and the price we paid.. yea, we should expect a heck of a lot more..

A 2nd round exit is disappointing yet a first round exit would have been great under the gallo led Knicks because of the perceived upside. That's the mentality for some.

it is a process, something you don't understand.. what good is a second round exit if that is pretty much your ceiling?

that knick team had a potentially higher ceiling.. and it seems as if you and others can't move along without mentioning gallo, but get upset when I do... and for the record, it would have been the amare led knicks.. heck for all we know it could have been the CP3 led knicks.. but we will never know that now will we?

enjoy carmelo and this 3-6 record and the toxic environment led by bustmelo and " I want to test free agency after wrecking this team to get here" drama...

have fun.. LOL

Amare is not capable of leading a team. We have seen what CP3, Harden, and Dwight got for return packages. Stop acting like we had a chance at those guys. You don't like Melo, but you are barking up the wrong tree. If you really wanted to rebuild properly, you would be arguing that trading resources to clear max cap space for 2 free agents was the wrong move. We misfired on the 2009 draft then traded it to unload players. Then only used that space on 1 max player. Today, we have zero production to show for that 2010 free agent period, while letting go of Lee who has been playing at an all-star level ever since. Melo was the icing on the cake, but far from the problem. If anything, he has helped to offset the main problem this team has. He was able to make a potentially tragic situation (after seeing what Amare is now) and still keep us competitive and moderately successful. Did we have an outside chance of landing another top player if we continued the "process", i don't know maybe, but it was a long shot if you are realistic about it. What you seem to miss is the most likely scenario was we resigned Gallo, W Chandler, still had all this money tied up with amare with no one to offset that, and used any and all resources to land a miscast like Monta Ellis, Rudy Gay, or OJ Mayo. You tend to see things as "the grass is always greener" but for once take a step back, let go of the Melo bias, look at how this organization functions, and understand where we would really be right now if we didn't complete that trade for Melo. Not what you would have done, but what this franchise would have done had they not traded for Melo. If you honestly think that is a better situation with better upside, then there is no hope for you. You think Melo wrecked this team to get here. He didn't make the trade. The real wrecking was the Knicks making the moves they made and misfiring on a plan far before that trade was ever thought up.

first of all, the knicks were a more exciting team with amare and the kids... period!!

Next, I was not for getting two free agents.. i was for getting LEBRON!! Big difference. I never was for this two max cats crap....

And you can't sit here and say we had no chance at Harden, or Paul.. really? we had no chance at them? I bet anything we would have probably gotten one of them or howard, especially with the picks, players and cap space we were sitting on... and at worse, we don't get them and still have, playes, picks and cap space.. sounds like a win-win to me..

Today, we have zero production to show for that 2010 free agent period, while letting go of Lee who has been playing at an all-star level ever since. Melo was the icing on the cake, but far from the problem.

I am not putting this on amare.. I think we should not have given him an non-guaranteed deal for that many years, but no one expected his knees to give out this soon. I miss david lee and wish we had kept him.. but lee had his flaws defensively and I thought we could have used that money in other areas.. in the end. we could have amnestied amare, but instead we wasted that on billups, which was part of the dreaded carmelo trade.. carmelo wasn't icing on the cake, he was the shyt that hit the fan....

What you seem to miss is the most likely scenario was we resigned Gallo, W Chandler, still had all this money tied up with amare with no one to offset that, and used any and all resources to land a miscast like Monta Ellis, Rudy Gay, or OJ Mayo.

Oh, so that was the most likely scenario? ok, I would take a resinged gallo and chandler, and still had moz, felton would have been off the books, and we still would have had our picks.. and honestly we didn't have to resign either one of chandler or gallo.. we had plenty of options. i love how you present the worst case scenario, but even then, we would still be better off than we are now..I would take OJ mayo who is far from a miscast..

you paint this picture as if our only hope was to do this ass backwards trade....

it is like telling your girlfriend to marry you, although you are lazy, with no job and you are a cheater.... because the other options is that she can marry a ax murderer with 10 baby mommas.. LOL..

The knicks were not a sign carmelo or be in bad shape situation.. dude I am going to just say this loud and clear.. CAMRELO IS A CLOWN... a franchise cancer, a overpaid one dimensional chucker... all of this he needs a running mate, he has no helo is utter bullcrap.... the knicks made a huge mistake with this trade, like they did getting bargnani, resigning JR smith and his brother, adding kenyon martin, letting lin go for nothing after he fell in our laps.... and the list goes on and one..

your defense of carmelo is becoming criminal.....it is so bad...

All of this talk, yet no sustainable proof to back it up. No indication the Knicks team before Melo was ever going to be more than a 1st round team, never going to win 54 games or win the atlantic. On top of that, if you honestly look at the trades for Dwight, Harden, and Paul and honestly think we could have beat those packages, you are more mistaken and delusional than you seem. Your judgment has nothing to do with this team, it is all about any option is better than Melo, because you hate him so much. It severly clouds your judgment and makes you seem unreasonable.

But the grass is always greener, we could traded for any other available star and outbid every other NBA team, with zero guaranteed lotto picks (such as in the Harden trade), zero projected stars (such as Gordon in the CP3 trade), etc smh. Keep living in your world.

Ah, let me see... the rockets traded kevin martin, lamb and two first roudn picks for harden..

knicks traded gallo, chandler, moz, felton, cap space from curry, two first round picks, two second round picks, anthony randolph...

ah.. HELL yea we could have beat that deal, are you kidding me????? jeezus christ!!! dude!!! rofl..

[

Dude, i don't even know where to start. OKC got a guarenteed lottery pick. They got Lamb, who will be on a rookie contract for a long time. They let go of Martin because they aren't in position to pay him. Now listen carefully, they would have zero interest in Gallo and Chandler because of their contract situtions. Let that sink in. OKC would have zero use for our package of players. They want players on rookie contracts for the longest, and draft picks that are the highest. They don't want players who are due to get paid after a season. We could not beat Houston in either of those areas. You thinking we can outbid them considering those factors is laughable.

so now you are speaking of what okc would have wanted? OKC could have asked us for curry's expiring contract and shipped us more dead weight, we were willing to take some on obviously... and they are not losing harden to get a rookie deal just to let him go.. they wanted talent in return, just not at hardens salary, gallo and chandler fill that, plus moz would have been a bonus on that team.. I am sorry, but you don't seem to grasp what OKC wanted.. they want a talent off the bench, they wanted to keep kevin martin, they didn't have to keep chandler, they could have kept gallo, and moz, they wanted a big to play with ibaka, and from what I read would have dealt perkins to save money...

again, there was so much room for these teams to make a deal....there is no way in the world you are going to tell me that OKC would not like having a player like gallo off their bench instead of lamb right now.. LOL.. come on man...

in the end, had the knicks done nothing.. AGAIN.. we would be no worse than 3-6, but would still have cap space and picks... and what the hell, maybe amare gets hurt and we are in the lottery this year.. like we may be anyway.. but instead we have a real shot at a top tier player... see how that works out..

so OKC would pay $16mm for Gallo and Mosgov but not the same for Harden? Talk about spewing garbage. Just cause you made it up doesnt make it true lol

nah, you miss the point, I said they could offset that with moving perkins....and moz was not under the deal he is right now.. OKC was considering moving perkins, but they didn't have a lot of bigs.. perk makes 8 mil. .bring in moz to play those minutes and they save money....

did you even follow that situation fish? I know you are jumping in late, but you may want to hold that "lol"

OKC was open to moving a number of pieces... especially perkins...Houston didn't want any parts of that.. the knicks we know love taking on garbage deals... plus the knicks could have used perkins honestly... either way they get their man...

but this is just one of many scenarios... maybe they just ask for gallo and all the picks we traded...

maybe you need to do some research on what happened....

OKC has been unable to trade Perkins. You have looked at the entire scenario upside down. Consider OKC letting go of Martin, they had no interest in anyone about to get paid. If they wanted to spend 10+ mil they would have resigned Harden. Consider Denver only accepted our deal because he refused to go to Brooklyn. You are fighting a losing battle with this one and make no sense...

of course they have, because they haven't dealt with the knicks.. if the knicks wanted harden that bad, they would take on perkins, look at our history.. again you are ignoring HISTORY.. history dicatates knicks would have taken on perkins.. heck we took on billups..

10+ mil is not the same as 14 mil which would put them over the luxury tax...

Consider Denver only accepted our deal because he refused to go to Brooklyn. You are fighting a losing battle with this one and make no sense...

think that if you want.. denver considered our deal becasue they were able to rape us in this deal.. believe me, if the deal was just chandler and curry's expiring deal, denver would not have done it...
if you believe that they would have, then you don't know anything about their GM..

they did it because they suckered dolan into giving up waaaaay too much..

the proof is in the pudding... we suck...we have no assets, and we are a mess...

that is the bottom line..

the only one making no sense is you.. I asked you, how are we better now, than if we not had made the trade..

your only answer has been to tell me what other teams would have done, which is contrary to what they did, and that we had no other choice but to make this trade.. LOL..

you are not built for this bro..

Yes we are better now. 54-28 Atlantic Division title, 2nd round playoffs. A tiny sample size of 3-6 during an 82-game season does not override that. So there you go, that settles that.

And since you clearly need a friendly reminder, here....

Carmelo Anthony Trade To New Jersey Nets Reportedly Approved By Both Teams; Melo Still Must Agree

According to reports on Friday, the Denver Nuggets and New Jersey Nets have tentatively agreed to a deal involving Carmelo Anthony. At this point, the only thing holding up the trade is Melo's willingness to sign a contract extension in New Jersey.

The Bergen Record cites multiple anonymous NBA sources in reporting that the two teams have both accepted to the terms of a trade that would send Anthony, Chauncey Billups, Sheldon Williams, Melvin Ely and Renaldo Balkman to New Jersey in exchange for Devin Harris, Derrick Favors, Troy Murphy, Ben Uzoh and four first-round picks.

The Nets, however, will only execute the trade if Anthony agrees to sign a long-term extension with the Nets, something he has not yet expressed willingness to do. Adrian Wojnarowski of Yahoo Sports reported on Thursday that Nets owner Mikhail Prokhorov has scheduled a meeting with Anthony in Los Angeles this All-Star weekend, presumably to sell the all-star forward on the idea of playing in New Jersey.

On Friday, Anthony told the AP that reports of a meeting between he and Nets leadership were "news to him."

In January, Prokhorov pulled the plug on a similar trade, telling the press that negotiations has worn on too long, and were taking a toll on the team.

The Nuggets and Nets have been in talks over Anthony on-and-off since the summer, when Anthony declined a 3-year, $65 million extension with Denver.

The Record also reported that the Nuggets would look to package Murphy and a draft pick in a deal with another team.

---------------------------------------------

4 FIRST ROUND PICKS, FOUR!!!. And #3 pick Favors. Dude look at that package, we were not competing with that lol. Are you crazy? Get over it, you are wrong!!!

Treat this as an eye-opener for you, that was the going rate for Carmelo's services. 4 first round draft picks and one of the top picks from the most recent draft, who many viewed as having DPOY and all-star potential.

LMAO

Gsus wrote:

tkf wrote:

Vmart wrote:If Melo leave he leaves not a big deal. More cap space to get other players.

exactly, we could easily fill his slot with a player who plays both ends of the floor, get a rebounder and a PG and be a team much better built for the playoffs...

time to get rid of this relic.. his game is old, the league has passed that by...time to move on..

So enlighten us, since you say we can easily do this...who is this player you would fill his slot with that plays both ends of the floor, this rebounder and a pg who will make this team a contender. Easy to pull **** out of your ass when it's at the tip of your anus..like these words that are at the tip of your tongue.

dude you are late.. I won't even bother..

Gsus wrote:

tkf wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

Vmart wrote:

MSG3 wrote:Problem is we are screwed if he leaves. We'll have a lot of cap space, but who do we build around? If we preserve cap space, we will have given away a sure lottery pick. What a mess. My preference in order from most to least is:

1) This team figures it out and makes a SMART move with Shumpert (I'm resigned to the fact he's as good as gone)
2) If the team struggles all year and gets bounced in the first round Melo still decides to stay and we build around him.
3) Trade Melo if he doesn't commit to staying and rebuild starting this coming off season. Hopefully we can get a lottery pick in return, but unless he opts in with the team he's traded to I don't think we'll be getting a lottery pick.
4) Melo walks, we have to rebuild, we learn another tough lesson by having given away an almost sure lottery pick in the original deal that brought him here.

It is what it is at this point. Just keeping Melo at a max out deal will guarantee the Knicks go no where. At this point does it really matter between making playoffs to get bounced and rebuilding towards something that will last, and result in something that might be more special.

There's always the possibility that Melo will opt out and take less money with the Knicks if they think they can bring along some other pieces. I think this is HIGHLY unlikely, but don't think it's out of the realm of possibility since he's already been on the record as wanting to win here in NY.

If Melo leaves NY his brand will take a hit and he will have even more pressure to win. If he goes to LA and doesn't win his brand takes another hit. Smart thing for him to do is resign with a plan to help the Knicks improve, which obviously involves taking less money. Maybe he won't do that, but i won't judge him on it until i see what happens. He brought respectable basketball back to NY last season so most fans appreciate that, lets see if he takes it a step further and takes less money to get support here.

Let's not kid ourselves Kidd and Wallace brought respectable basketball back to NY. They were the main reason for the fast start. They were the ones who provided leadership. It was Amare who brought the Knicks back initially. Melo had a part in last year I will not deny that.

oh he did have a part, but the problem is, most believe that he dragged us to 54 wins.... I said early last season that kidd was team mvp for the first month or so..

LMAO...riiighht...because an 82 game season is one month long. So wtf happened after Kidd fell off after that month? Oh yeah, we lost a few games..but Melo missed some games too. So did Tyson. So you give credit for Kidd being MVP the first month, but totally forget the monster April Melo had, the 30 40 50 point games, that 13 game winning streak. Oh that's right..I'm sorry, it was Pablo Prigioni.

LMAO...you make very good points, and are one of the smarter posters here, but you muck it up with your bias and tunnel vision.

no there is no tunnel vision here.. we suck, and i said we would... I am spot on so far.. do you like what you see right now? I would trade places with any team in the league right now.. including the utah jazz....