KEEPCAMBYNY wrote:One other point that ticks me off a bit with the Bargnani hate train is that when someone posts up the highlights of his 40 point game against the Knicks during a time when the Knicks had the best PF in the NBA (Amare) on the hottest team in the NBA at the time that eventually made the playoffs, you guys have every excuse in the damn book. Yet Scola has a good game against a scrub ass Nets team that was trash, and yet you guys are in awe of that. Am I missing something?

nixluva claimed scola has never put up points....thus i posted the video to show his career high which i think is higher than bargnani's.

maybe that clears up a little for you.

but yeah in both circumstances both opponents defense was trash.

here is the difference though....no one questions bargs talent, we just know his highlight videos is not what we expect.

KEEPCAMBYNY wrote:

knickscity wrote:

KEEPCAMBYNY wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:Scola has absolutely ZERO chance of dominating a game. When AB is on his game he can go for 40 pts. Don't even try to bring up Scola as if he would make a huge difference for this team. Scola gets a lot of garbage points. He's not the focus of any defense. When the payoffs come a guy like Scola will disappear and no one will be worried about him. If AB gets hot trust me teams will have problems. It's not just the day to day production that matters but the higher levels a player can take his game to. Scola doesn't have another level he can take his game too. Bargnani does.

You have to have players who can win a game for you practically by themselves if they get it going. Despite the hate people put on AB he's a guy with a ton of upside and talent. He's never been on a team like this where he's got so much talent around him. Scola isn't a primary scoring option and even if he was he wouldn't put any fear in an opposing team. It can be easier for some guys to be efficient when less attention is being paid to them and they don't carry the scoring load for their team. Guys like Scola play it safe and stay under the radar. He's a great role player.

That great role player is better than Bargnani all day every day...he knows what he is capable of and stays with it, and puts up the consistent stats to show it.

Call me when Bargnani has any season equal to Scola's average...Scola is a career 50% shooter....and actually rebounds the basketball which Bargnani is self admitted lazy.

By your words, if we gotta wait for him to get "hot" we're so doomed.

I honestly cant believe Bargnani can get so much defense when his entire career he's been underforming and garbage.

I'll give him his props when he actually does something when it matters...in the playoffs.

Show me some video on that.

But since you are so addicted to video...watch this one...and it aint bargnani...

Holla at me when bargnani shoots 20-25 from the field like Scola did.

I've told you before, there is a video for everything.

Yeah, Scola has been a far better NBA player than Bargnani.

Keywords there are "has been", which is what Scola is. He is a 2nd or 3rd stringer at this stage of his career. There is a reason the Pacers got him for the price that they did. Plus I find it funny that the same posters giving all these props for the Pacers getting him would be killing Grunwald for giving up that same package for him.

The funny part is it wouldnt have taken that package to get him...he only makes 4 mil....it didnt take that package to get bargnani either.

You gotta be seriously joking to think he'd be a 3rd stringer....on this Knicks team he'd be the starting pf and watching him score like a pf should, at a solid clip and rebound? Thats is what we missed last year....exactly what Bargnani is not.

by the praise that Bargnani is getting I'm sure scola would be crowned mvp around here....

You obviously didn't watch many Phoenix Suns games last year.

But i do know Scola has contributed to more wins than bargnani has ever.

knickscity wrote:

KEEPCAMBYNY wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:Scola has absolutely ZERO chance of dominating a game. When AB is on his game he can go for 40 pts. Don't even try to bring up Scola as if he would make a huge difference for this team. Scola gets a lot of garbage points. He's not the focus of any defense. When the payoffs come a guy like Scola will disappear and no one will be worried about him. If AB gets hot trust me teams will have problems. It's not just the day to day production that matters but the higher levels a player can take his game to. Scola doesn't have another level he can take his game too. Bargnani does.

You have to have players who can win a game for you practically by themselves if they get it going. Despite the hate people put on AB he's a guy with a ton of upside and talent. He's never been on a team like this where he's got so much talent around him. Scola isn't a primary scoring option and even if he was he wouldn't put any fear in an opposing team. It can be easier for some guys to be efficient when less attention is being paid to them and they don't carry the scoring load for their team. Guys like Scola play it safe and stay under the radar. He's a great role player.

That great role player is better than Bargnani all day every day...he knows what he is capable of and stays with it, and puts up the consistent stats to show it.

Call me when Bargnani has any season equal to Scola's average...Scola is a career 50% shooter....and actually rebounds the basketball which Bargnani is self admitted lazy.

By your words, if we gotta wait for him to get "hot" we're so doomed.

I honestly cant believe Bargnani can get so much defense when his entire career he's been underforming and garbage.

I'll give him his props when he actually does something when it matters...in the playoffs.

Show me some video on that.

But since you are so addicted to video...watch this one...and it aint bargnani...

Holla at me when bargnani shoots 20-25 from the field like Scola did.

I've told you before, there is a video for everything.

Yeah, Scola has been a far better NBA player than Bargnani.

Keywords there are "has been", which is what Scola is. He is a 2nd or 3rd stringer at this stage of his career. There is a reason the Pacers got him for the price that they did. Plus I find it funny that the same posters giving all these props for the Pacers getting him would be killing Grunwald for giving up that same package for him.

The funny part is it wouldnt have taken that package to get him...he only makes 4 mil....it didnt take that package to get bargnani either.

You gotta be seriously joking to think he'd be a 3rd stringer....on this Knicks team he'd be the starting pf and watching him score like a pf should, at a solid clip and rebound? Thats is what we missed last year....exactly what Bargnani is not.

by the praise that Bargnani is getting I'm sure scola would be crowned mvp around here....

nixluva wrote:The level of hate for Melo is unreal. All we did was get further in the playoffs than we have in more than a decade. If Melo had any help in the Pacers series we could've won 2 more games. The Knicks offense was abysmal in the playoffs. The defense wasn't perfect but it wasn't bad. What killed this team was really bad offense, poor rebounding and part of that had to do with players wearing down. But that was last year!!!

This roster has been improved despite the naysayers around here. This roster has more talent and depth. This roster is younger. I think we have a good mix of experience and skill. With reference to Bargnani, the guy has skills we haven't seen in a front line player on this team in a long time. We need that threat to help keep defenses honest. It's easy to just kick dirt on AB but if you look at how he plays and what he does best, it's easy to see how he can help this team.

Bargnani is a 50% shooter from 20' in towards the basket. He's 50% off PnP and he's got some post skills as well. Bargnani can move extremely well for a 7'er and he's a great catch and shoot player too. What brings his % down is the 3pt shots, which he doesn't have to do on this team. I think Woody will look to get him closer to the basket more often.

Just watch how hard it is for PF's to defend him away from the basket and how quick his release is. Look at his agility and skill with the ball. Even against good defensive teams:

AB frustrates Noah and the Bulls

We didn't have player who could do all of these things last year. Worry about his 3pt shooting % and stuff like that is missing the point. Just the threat of him being on the floor will help this team. AB is not like Novak who just stands there. AB is always moving and in the mix of the offense. Just pay attention to him in the videos.

This is what happens when bigs don't guard him at the 3pt line

Luis Scola can't do that. You have to have a few players that can raise their game to another level. If Melo had AB in game 6 against the Pacers we win that game.

Great post. While Scola isn't garbage and is very effiecient, I agree AB's upside is higher. He was the #1 pick in the entire draft for a reason, and he has had pretty good seasons averaging close to 20 pts or more. He will not need to be the main guy here and I think the fit here is much better for him than Toronto was.He complements Melo, the personell, and the system quite well. Further Woodson is a better coach than any Toronto had and also has shown a knack for adapting his system to fit players strengths. I think we will find out pretty quickly just how good he can be playing in a better situation once the season (heck even preseason) starts up.

knickscity wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

knickscity wrote:

KEEPCAMBYNY wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:Scola has absolutely ZERO chance of dominating a game. When AB is on his game he can go for 40 pts. Don't even try to bring up Scola as if he would make a huge difference for this team. Scola gets a lot of garbage points. He's not the focus of any defense. When the payoffs come a guy like Scola will disappear and no one will be worried about him. If AB gets hot trust me teams will have problems. It's not just the day to day production that matters but the higher levels a player can take his game to. Scola doesn't have another level he can take his game too. Bargnani does.

You have to have players who can win a game for you practically by themselves if they get it going. Despite the hate people put on AB he's a guy with a ton of upside and talent. He's never been on a team like this where he's got so much talent around him. Scola isn't a primary scoring option and even if he was he wouldn't put any fear in an opposing team. It can be easier for some guys to be efficient when less attention is being paid to them and they don't carry the scoring load for their team. Guys like Scola play it safe and stay under the radar. He's a great role player.

That great role player is better than Bargnani all day every day...he knows what he is capable of and stays with it, and puts up the consistent stats to show it.

Call me when Bargnani has any season equal to Scola's average...Scola is a career 50% shooter....and actually rebounds the basketball which Bargnani is self admitted lazy.

By your words, if we gotta wait for him to get "hot" we're so doomed.

I honestly cant believe Bargnani can get so much defense when his entire career he's been underforming and garbage.

I'll give him his props when he actually does something when it matters...in the playoffs.

Show me some video on that.

But since you are so addicted to video...watch this one...and it aint bargnani...

Holla at me when bargnani shoots 20-25 from the field like Scola did.

I've told you before, there is a video for everything.

Yeah, Scola has been a far better NBA player than Bargnani.

Keywords there are "has been", which is what Scola is. He is a 2nd or 3rd stringer at this stage of his career. There is a reason the Pacers got him for the price that they did. Plus I find it funny that the same posters giving all these props for the Pacers getting him would be killing Grunwald for giving up that same package for him.

The funny part is it wouldnt have taken that package to get him...he only makes 4 mil....it didnt take that package to get bargnani either.

You gotta be seriously joking to think he'd be a 3rd stringer....on this Knicks team he'd be the starting pf and watching him score like a pf should, at a solid clip and rebound? Thats is what we missed last year....exactly what Bargnani is not.

by the praise that Bargnani is getting I'm sure scola would be crowned mvp around here....

Scola is a good player but I am curious to see how this deal works out for the Suns. I thought Plumlee was a reach when the Pacers drafted him but he looked great in the summer league. I would think similar to Scola last year he will need to play because of the health of all Phoenix's big men. Also, a 2014 first round pick is a nice pick up for a rebuilding team. I think some of Indy's motivation in the deal was to move Green.

indy's motivation was to improve their offense on the bench...they had none.

Pyscho T, Green and DJ wasnt exactly solid. CJ replaces DJ, Cope is a better Gerald Green and Scola actually can play.

From the Suns end, when they bidded on Scola, they didnt have any intention of sucking, and i really believe they did this deal as a "thanks" to Scola for dealing with wasting a year of his career and traded him to the Pacers as a "thank you".

knickscity wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

knickscity wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

knickscity wrote:

KEEPCAMBYNY wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:Scola has absolutely ZERO chance of dominating a game. When AB is on his game he can go for 40 pts. Don't even try to bring up Scola as if he would make a huge difference for this team. Scola gets a lot of garbage points. He's not the focus of any defense. When the payoffs come a guy like Scola will disappear and no one will be worried about him. If AB gets hot trust me teams will have problems. It's not just the day to day production that matters but the higher levels a player can take his game to. Scola doesn't have another level he can take his game too. Bargnani does.

You have to have players who can win a game for you practically by themselves if they get it going. Despite the hate people put on AB he's a guy with a ton of upside and talent. He's never been on a team like this where he's got so much talent around him. Scola isn't a primary scoring option and even if he was he wouldn't put any fear in an opposing team. It can be easier for some guys to be efficient when less attention is being paid to them and they don't carry the scoring load for their team. Guys like Scola play it safe and stay under the radar. He's a great role player.

That great role player is better than Bargnani all day every day...he knows what he is capable of and stays with it, and puts up the consistent stats to show it.

Call me when Bargnani has any season equal to Scola's average...Scola is a career 50% shooter....and actually rebounds the basketball which Bargnani is self admitted lazy.

By your words, if we gotta wait for him to get "hot" we're so doomed.

I honestly cant believe Bargnani can get so much defense when his entire career he's been underforming and garbage.

I'll give him his props when he actually does something when it matters...in the playoffs.

Show me some video on that.

But since you are so addicted to video...watch this one...and it aint bargnani...

Holla at me when bargnani shoots 20-25 from the field like Scola did.

I've told you before, there is a video for everything.

Yeah, Scola has been a far better NBA player than Bargnani.

Keywords there are "has been", which is what Scola is. He is a 2nd or 3rd stringer at this stage of his career. There is a reason the Pacers got him for the price that they did. Plus I find it funny that the same posters giving all these props for the Pacers getting him would be killing Grunwald for giving up that same package for him.

The funny part is it wouldnt have taken that package to get him...he only makes 4 mil....it didnt take that package to get bargnani either.

You gotta be seriously joking to think he'd be a 3rd stringer....on this Knicks team he'd be the starting pf and watching him score like a pf should, at a solid clip and rebound? Thats is what we missed last year....exactly what Bargnani is not.

by the praise that Bargnani is getting I'm sure scola would be crowned mvp around here....

Scola is a good player but I am curious to see how this deal works out for the Suns. I thought Plumlee was a reach when the Pacers drafted him but he looked great in the summer league. I would think similar to Scola last year he will need to play because of the health of all Phoenix's big men. Also, a 2014 first round pick is a nice pick up for a rebuilding team. I think some of Indy's motivation in the deal was to move Green.

indy's motivation was to improve their offense on the bench...they had none.

Pyscho T, Green and DJ wasnt exactly solid. CJ replaces DJ, Cope is a better Gerald Green and Scola actually can play.

From the Suns end, when they bidded on Scola, they didnt have any intention of sucking, and i really believe they did this deal as a "thanks" to Scola for dealing with wasting a year of his career and traded him to the Pacers as a "thank you".

Green was signed to a bad contract and they wanted to clear cap space. Scola improves the team and is on a one year deal. I think Indy gave more then a fair package to get Scola and I believe it was partially to get out of Green's contract. Personally not a fan of Augustine's and really didn't like any of the moves Walsh made in his one year back in Indy.

indy could have stretched Greens deal to the tune of a vet min contract each year if they chose, his deal wasnt a factor...it was similar to what the knicks could have done with Novak.

3 mil for a player isnt bad in this CBA, no matter what talent they have....that stretch provision essentially wipes them clean and frees up a roster spot.

VCoug wrote:I don't know where you're getting Bargnani's PnP numbers from but I can tell you that he definitely isn't a 50% shooter from 20' in. Here is a spreadsheet I just made up based on the shooting numbers from http://NBA.com/stats broken into 5' increments. As you can see, he's shot over 50% from within 20' once in his career, 2009-10.

I stand corrected. I didn't use the NBA shot chart. I was looking at the %'s and coming up with my own perception of the numbers. I'm glad you made that chart because it's easier to disprove this idea that he's a bad shooter. When you look at his shooting without the 3pt'ers it puts things in perspective.

Using your chart actually makes it easier to see than my "guesstimation". The very shots I suggest Woody should have Bargnani take are in evidence in your chart. Bargnani's best years are the ones where he takes the bulk of his shots in the post or in the 15-19 foot PnP area you can see in the videos I posted.

	2011-12		
Less than 5 feet	66	113	58.41%
5-9 feet	        16	42	38.10%
10-14 feet	        24	52	46.15%
15-19 feet	        48	109	44.04%
Total	               154	316	48.73%
	2010-11		
Less than 5 feet	140	250	56.00%
5-9 feet	         77	179	43.02%
10-14 feet	         69	161	42.86%
15-19 feet	        121	262	46.18%
Total	                407	852	47.77%
	2009-10		
Less than 5 feet	169	257	65.76%
5-9 feet	         65	138	47.10%
10-14 feet	         57	123	46.34%
15-19 feet	         95	207	45.89%
Total	                386	725	53.24%

Thanks to your chart it's easy to see that aside from last year which we know he had elbow and wrist issues, Bargnani when used right can be a serious weapon. It's up to Woody to get this guy back to being more of a post up player. People are paying too much attention to the 3's he takes and not enough attention to what he can do closer to the basket.

nixluva wrote:

VCoug wrote:I don't know where you're getting Bargnani's PnP numbers from but I can tell you that he definitely isn't a 50% shooter from 20' in. Here is a spreadsheet I just made up based on the shooting numbers from http://NBA.com/stats broken into 5' increments. As you can see, he's shot over 50% from within 20' once in his career, 2009-10.

I stand corrected. I didn't use the NBA shot chart. I was looking at the %'s and coming up with my own perception of the numbers. I'm glad you made that chart because it's easier to disprove this idea that he's a bad shooter. When you look at his shooting without the 3pt'ers it puts things in perspective.

Using your chart actually makes it easier to see than my "guesstimation". The very shots I suggest Woody should have Bargnani take are in evidence in your chart. Bargnani's best years are the ones where he takes the bulk of his shots in the post or in the 15-19 foot PnP area you can see in the videos I posted.

	2011-12		
Less than 5 feet	66	113	58.41%
5-9 feet	        16	42	38.10%
10-14 feet	        24	52	46.15%
15-19 feet	        48	109	44.04%
Total	               154	316	48.73%
	2010-11		
Less than 5 feet	140	250	56.00%
5-9 feet	         77	179	43.02%
10-14 feet	         69	161	42.86%
15-19 feet	        121	262	46.18%
Total	                407	852	47.77%
	2009-10		
Less than 5 feet	169	257	65.76%
5-9 feet	         65	138	47.10%
10-14 feet	         57	123	46.34%
15-19 feet	         95	207	45.89%
Total	                386	725	53.24%

For his career he's at 48% inside the 3pt line.
his best recent years:
2011-12 48.73%
2010-11 47.77%
2009-10 53.24%

Thanks to your chart it's easy to see that aside from last year which we know he had elbow and wrist issues, Bargnani when used right can be a serious weapon. It's up to Woody to get this guy back to being more of a post up player. People are paying too much attention to the 3's he takes and not enough attention to what he can do closer to the basket.

TO add here are some PnR numbers posted on knickerblogger a while back

http://knickerblogger.net/has-the-win-now-window-already-closed/#comment-441247

ruruland
July 3, 2013 at 11:33 pm

A lot has been made about Andrea Bargnani’s shooting struggles, but here are some interesting facts.

Over the last four years, via Synergy, Bargnani has shot a higher percentage from 3-pt range than Dirk Nowitzki (39 to 36 %) on pick and rolls. Imagine the double pnr opportunities with Bargs fading to 3-pt line and Chandler sprinting to rim…

As Frank posted earlier, Bargs is also capable of slipping screens or rolling to basket to get size mismatch for a post-up. He’s extremely versatile in pick and roll, and the Knicks are built for and accustomed to a lot of pnr action.

Check out how Bargnani compares to other floor spreading big men in terms of spot-ups. AB=Bargnani, KG=Garnett, CB= Bosh

2010
Player, play attempt #, points per possession
AB: 512 , 1.11 ppp,
KG: 259, .93 ppp
CB: 155, .88 ppp

2011
AB 310, .93
KG 211, .91
CB 330, 1

2012
AB 138, 1.04
KG 268, .93
CB 267, .9

2013
AB 182, .92
KG 200, 1.01
CB 182, .92

Bargnani has historically struggled shooting in isolations and transition, but he is much better when he runs wing instead of trails.

it's a point blank shot thats either a layup, dunk or and-1...and fouls dont even count as an attempt if missed.

You may wanna look at his actually attempts....

http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Andrea%20Bargnani

Just to emphasize how 60% is not good, recall Shump as a rookie seemed like he couldnt convert anything? he shot 60% on rim shots.

Now I will give him some credit, his mid range is actually pretty good, but I hate that shot for any player unless they mix it up.

I want hype Bargnani but I want dismiss the possibilities of success. I don't dismiss the possibilities of failure either.

yellowboy90 wrote:I guess this guy sucks too. I am not comparing the two but just isolating rim FG%

http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Roy%20Hibbert

This is his at rim FG% from basketball-reference.

08/09-------.512

09/10-------.609

10/11-------.651

11/12-------.575

12/13-------.552