NYKMentality wrote:

tkf wrote: He also said that he wouldn't be making scoring his priority.. yet he still takes a lot of shots and is avg more PPG than last year..

How about defense? does he plan on playing any of that consistently?

passing?

How about keeping cool, being poised and being a leader? that is part of helping your team win, yet he stands outside the celtics bus, and is near the top of the league in tech fouls..

carmelo is not being mocked.. many of us have seen this from him before... scoring especially.... I think the knicks hot start had a lot to do with a lot of guys playing and shooting well above their averages.... now that has tapered our record has not been so good.. yet carmelo still scores, still rebounds... right? so tell me, what is missing , maybe he should be doing something else?

just saying...

What a freaking hypocritical hypocrite you are. You talk up your little boy lover in Gallo and bash Melo 24/7.

You talk about Melo's scoring? Melo's at 29.4 points per game when compared to Gallo's 16.8.

You talk about Melo's shooting? Melo's FG% is at .452% when compared to Gallo's .418.

You talk about Melo's defense? Melo's been our strongest Knick defender here in 2012-2013 while Gallo is a laughing stock joke on defense.

You talk about Melo's passing? Melo's averaging 2.6 assists per game when compared to Gallo's 2.4.

You talk about Melo's rebounding? Melo's averaging 6.2 boards per game when compared to Gallo's 5.3.

You talk about the Knicks record under Melo? Melo's 24-11 while Gallo's only 28-17.

So yea, Melo's 2nd amongst all NBA players in scoring while featuring the NBA's 7th strongest Player Efficiency Rating. Why has Melo has to score in order for our Knicks to win ball games? Because our guards rank dead last in shooting percentage and Jason Kidd missed 4 games, without Raymond Felton for 12 games, without Kurt Thomas for 15 games, without Rasheed Wallace for 22 games, without Marcus Camby for 28 games, without Amar'e Stoudemire for 30 games and without Iman Shumpert for 37 games.

But yet, we're still 24-11 with Melo leading the way. A winning percentage of .686% during games in which Melo has led the way as the NBA's 2nd leading scorer. And only the Spurs, Thunder and Clippers have a winning percentage greater than .686%. Keep scoring Melo. Because that's all the Knicks do is win under Melo's scoring ability.

THE Biggest flaw with your argument is that it is all on emotion.. You start by bringing up gallo... Have I even mentioned gallo in any of these threads other than the thread for other teams? YOu are so transparent..... You can't hold a reasonable debate when your emotions are all over the place.. forget gallo and stick to the point at hand.. then come back to me..

dk7th wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:

tkf wrote: He also said that he wouldn't be making scoring his priority.. yet he still takes a lot of shots and is avg more PPG than last year..

How about defense? does he plan on playing any of that consistently?

passing?

How about keeping cool, being poised and being a leader? that is part of helping your team win, yet he stands outside the celtics bus, and is near the top of the league in tech fouls..

carmelo is not being mocked.. many of us have seen this from him before... scoring especially.... I think the knicks hot start had a lot to do with a lot of guys playing and shooting well above their averages.... now that has tapered our record has not been so good.. yet carmelo still scores, still rebounds... right? so tell me, what is missing , maybe he should be doing something else?

just saying...

What a freaking hypocritical hypocrite you are. You talk up your little boy lover in Gallo and bash Melo 24/7.

You talk about Melo's scoring? Melo's at 29.4 points per game when compared to Gallo's 16.8.

You talk about Melo's shooting? Melo's FG% is at .452% when compared to Gallo's .418.

You talk about Melo's defense? Melo's been our strongest Knick defender here in 2012-2013 while Gallo is a laughing stock joke on defense.

You talk about Melo's passing? Melo's averaging 2.6 assists per game when compared to Gallo's 2.4.

You talk about Melo's rebounding? Melo's averaging 6.2 boards per game when compared to Gallo's 5.3.

You talk about the Knicks record under Melo? Melo's 24-11 while Gallo's only 28-17.

So yea, Melo's 2nd amongst all NBA players in scoring while featuring the NBA's 7th strongest Player Efficiency Rating. Why has Melo has to score in order for our Knicks to win ball games? Because our guards rank dead last in shooting percentage and Jason Kidd missed 4 games, without Raymond Felton for 12 games, without Kurt Thomas for 15 games, without Rasheed Wallace for 22 games, without Marcus Camby for 28 games, without Amar'e Stoudemire for 30 games and without Iman Shumpert for 37 games.

But yet, we're still 24-11 with Melo leading the way. A winning percentage of .686% during games in which Melo has led the way as the NBA's 2nd leading scorer. And only the Spurs, Thunder and Clippers have a winning percentage greater than .686%. Keep scoring Melo. Because that's all the Knicks do is win under Melo's scoring ability.

the problem with the stats you use to make your case is that they are being used to the exclusion of other stats that are perhaps a bit more reflective of the fluidness of the game. in other words, many of the stats you are using are relatively "static."

take the easiest one:

1)field goal percentage. since the advent of the 3-point line FG% is basically obsolete for all positions but center and the occasional power forward. i think you understand why this must be: it's because almost all positions but center shoot the 3 ball.

for that we use the eFG%. here gallinari is shooting a slightly below average 49.4 but he is slowly climbing to his career average. meanwhile melo is above his career average of 48.0-- he is at 51.4 but has been slowly regressing. eventually their averages will cross paths.

additionally, there is the ability to draw fouls and get to the line. this is a talent and the better players in the league tend to draw more fouls. agreed?

the stat for this is true shooting percentage or TS%. look at gallinari, who at present is below his career average of 57.7-- he is at 55.7 and climbing. and melo, again, is above his career average of 54.5% and is at an almost elite 57% but has been regressing there as well. really elite scorers are at 58% or higher. interestingly is for his career closer to elite than melo, but melo is considered the vastly better scorer. does this invalidate the TS%? i don't think so but it is pretty clear you do.

now lets look at something a little more esoteric, namely

2)usage rate as it relates to assist rate usg/ast-- this ratio represents how often the ball is in a player's hands as a play is made as it relates to how often that play ends up as an assist. the higher the ratio is above 1 the more we can see that the player is an isolation player who does not really share the ball and create cohesion. the further below the number is below 1 the more unselfish the player is and creates more offensive cohesion.

melo started the season at a way too high 3:1 and has since lessened that ratio to 2.50:1-- which is still too high. the raw numbers are 34.7 to 14.6. so he controls the ball on more than a third of the possessions in a five-man team game but the possession ends up with an assist only 14.6% of the time. gallinari meanwhile has a ratio of 1.91:1 with raw figures of 21.8 to 11.4. notice that he has the ball almost exactly one-fifth of the time in a five-man game. his 11.4 assist percentage is lower than melo's in terms of raw numbers, but if you have the ball a fifth of the time as opposed to a third of the time then of course the chance to assist will be lower too.

basketball being a game of motion and fluidity is more like calculus and these deeper metrics are superior representations of this fluidity. the stats you are using are more suitable for baseball, which is by nature a static game.

great post dk.. there is an article I found in a denver publication.. i wish I still had it, but the writer went into the numbers pretty much the same way you did and he was talking about gallo.. He was saying that if you look at gallo numbers on the surface, there is nothing spectacular about it, but looking deeper into the numbers using these metrics it really highlighted how good of a all around player, and the affect gallo has on denver... interesting stuff.. i will try to find it for you...

Honestly, this was good work on your part, but I don't see why this poster brings up gallo when this thread was about carmelo and his promises... again, the same guys that accuse me of hyping up gallo mention him more than anyone else on this board.. go figure..

nixluva wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Not a Dantoni fan at all but fair is fair

I've never said MDA is the best NBA coach myself. I defend him cuz so many people just don't understand what he's about. His offensive principles are sound but so few players actually buy in. In PHX that team bought in. Before the Melo trade that group of Knicks bought in. During Linsanity the role players bought in before Melo came back. Now in LA due to Kobe buying in that team is starting to understand and buy in. Some think they aren't playing MDA ball but that's cuz they have a narrow view of what his game is all about.

MDA doesn't care who the primary passer is as long as the ball is moving, players are moving and there is great spacing! Those things never change!!!

exactly.. if you are a player that just wants to stand there, be given the ball while you pound it for 20 seconds before shooting. You won't work in this offense.... actually i don't see how that works anywhere, and any offense geared around that is pretty much gearing around flawed players and eventually will fail as we have seen in many cases....

Deconstructionism is fine, when we're watching (or listening to) 23 and 29 win teams who can't smell playoffs. Where the only time there's any general interest in the Knicks is when we get to discuss the latest embarrassing back page story.

But those days are over, right? IT is gone. Marbles is running China. Nobody's posted a Dolan thread in what seems like months.

Perhaps Knick fans don't know how to handle success of any kind. Dolasnake bittern for so long, there's no happy medium.

Is pining for what we aren't all that's left to us? Bus chasing? JR's off color tweets? Missing draft picks? Does that really compare to the nightmare years we just exited from?

I don't know about you, but beating the hapless Magic by 16 with Novak actually hitting a three off of what sounded like really nice ball movement was a good thing. To me.

Being happy with a top tier star who scores like you pee, and smiles and talks about having fun setting franchise records would seem to be a good reason to change that negative outlook that's become second nature for "some" who "follow" this "team". Enjoying the Walshian/Grunnie sunshine would not really be that bad of a thing, would it?

jrodmc wrote:Has this board always been this way? Carping back and forth endlessly over our own player(s) on a winning team?

Deconstructionism is fine, when we're watching (or listening to) 23 and 29 win teams who can't smell playoffs. Where the only time there's any general interest in the Knicks is when we get to discuss the latest embarrassing back page story.

But those days are over, right? IT is gone. Marbles is running China. Nobody's posted a Dolan thread in what seems like months.

Perhaps Knick fans don't know how to handle success of any kind. Dolasnake bittern for so long, there's no happy medium.

Is pining for what we aren't all that's left to us? Bus chasing? JR's off color tweets? Missing draft picks? Does that really compare to the nightmare years we just exited from?

I don't know about you, but beating the hapless Magic by 16 with Novak actually hitting a three off of what sounded like really nice ball movement was a good thing. To me.

Being happy with a top tier star who scores like you pee, and smiles and talks about having fun setting franchise records would seem to be a good reason to change that negative outlook that's become second nature for "some" who "follow" this "team". Enjoying the Walshian/Grunnie sunshine would not really be that bad of a thing, would it?

We have not had a team this good to root for.

It becomes more about being right than talking hoop.

For the StarMoobians they think we would not have made the playoffs if we did not make the trade for Melo even though we were over .500. Making the playoffs and winning one game in two years to me is no big accomplishment.

Denver is winning about the same with and without melo. Im convinced the team would not be froozen in time as it was but we would have made some kind of trade or "trades". Its abstract and subjective so why argue it?

Defending ones point of view becomes a priority for many posters. Proving another wrong is also great "Sport".

Then there is "lumping". NYMental thinks there are legions of melo haters on the forum but does not realize there might be only 3.

We end up discussing the same thing over and over so the "ignore" button is a must.

Im sure IM as guilty as anyone.

Melo did not put himself in the conversation or chant "MVP", its the fans that "Moob-itize" his status into the starphuch stratosphere.

If you just turn on the game and forget about measuring him to Durant and Lebron or the legend of Bernard King its all really quite a good show.

tkf wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:You gotta make it to the playoffs to have a playoff record right?

Knicks weren't even doing that before Melo.

they also weren't doing it before amare either...

The Playoff failure is not on Melo but the organizational roster construction. Starphuchs have a price and we paid it with a thin roster last season.

This year we are better constructed and with a coach better suited.

Everyone has "blame" when the organization fails. Melo has his share but so does Amare and Chandler.

Amare went 7/7 in last nites "Scrimmage" against the Magic. AMare is the wild card here. If he can regain his health and use his new toys he got from Hakeem but with greater efficency then it has great potential.

1+1 needs to equal 3!

tkf wrote: THE Biggest flaw with your argument is that it is all on emotion.. You start by bringing up gallo... Have I even mentioned gallo in any of these threads other than the thread for other teams? YOu are so transparent..... You can't hold a reasonable debate when your emotions are all over the place.. forget gallo and stick to the point at hand.. then come back to me..

I'm not going to hold off anymore. You're nothing but a troll and a little lying son of a bitch.

tkf wrote:LOL funny you say that fans voted gallo their best player... Not sure how anyone can talk denvers best players and not include gallo.. only here in knick land where they must knock down former players to validate current ones... i guess knick best players are amare, chandler and kidd.... right?

Answer me you little troll. Was this post above not inside of this thread? You little lying son of a bitch.

Oh yea, the Knicks are 25-11 during games in which Melo has played. Deal with it you little troll.

DurzoBlint wrote:

Nalod wrote:

tkf wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:You gotta make it to the playoffs to have a playoff record right?

Knicks weren't even doing that before Melo.

they also weren't doing it before amare either...

The Playoff failure is not on Melo but the organizational roster construction. Starphuchs have a price and we paid it with a thin roster last season.

This year we are better constructed and with a coach better suited.

Everyone has "blame" when the organization fails. Melo has his share but so does Amare and Chandler.

Amare went 7/7 in last nites "Scrimmage" against the Magic. AMare is the wild card here. If he can regain his health and use his new toys he got from Hakeem but with greater efficency then it has great potential.

1+1 needs to equal 3!

And not a single thread about how good Amare looked or how fun it was to watch this win. Guys are just too fuking much with the negativity.

Check the game thread

or My Start Amare Now thread

Also don't know if you are referring to this thread being negative but it was created after getting blown out by the Sixers. Not lastnight. Melo played a flawless game last night

NYKMentality wrote:

tkf wrote: THE Biggest flaw with your argument is that it is all on emotion.. You start by bringing up gallo... Have I even mentioned gallo in any of these threads other than the thread for other teams? YOu are so transparent..... You can't hold a reasonable debate when your emotions are all over the place.. forget gallo and stick to the point at hand.. then come back to me..

I'm not going to hold off anymore. You're nothing but a troll and a little lying son of a bitch.

tkf wrote:LOL funny you say that fans voted gallo their best player... Not sure how anyone can talk denvers best players and not include gallo.. only here in knick land where they must knock down former players to validate current ones... i guess knick best players are amare, chandler and kidd.... right?

Answer me you little troll. Was this post above not inside of this thread? You little lying son of a bitch.

Oh yea, the Knicks are 25-11 during games in which Melo has played. Deal with it you little troll.

Ah ...

you can't take it when someone calls you Nixluva's little sister and threaten to leave the sight but THIS is OK?

tkf wrote:great post dk.. there is an article I found in a denver publication.. i wish I still had it, but the writer went into the numbers pretty much the same way you did and he was talking about gallo.. He was saying that if you look at gallo numbers on the surface, there is nothing spectacular about it, but looking deeper into the numbers using these metrics it really highlighted how good of a all around player, and the affect gallo has on denver... interesting stuff.. i will try to find it for you...

Honestly, this was good work on your part, but I don't see why this poster brings up gallo when this thread was about carmelo and his promises... again, the same guys that accuse me of hyping up gallo mention him more than anyone else on this board.. go figure..

"Great post dk".

Oh shut up already you little internet troll. "I found a Denver publication"... "I wish I still had it". You little liar.

Melo: .453 FG%. (.416 3PT%). 29.1 points, 1.6 offensive boards, 4.6 defensive boards, 6.2 overall boards, 2.7 assists, 0.9 steals and 0.6 blocks per game. 7.47 free throws attempted and 6.19 free throws made per game. Record of 25-11.

Gallo: .423 FG% (.372 3PT%), 17.0 points, 1.0 offensive boards, 4.3 defensive boards, 5.3 overall boards, 2.4 assists, 0.8 steals and 0.5 blocks per game. 4.95 free throws attempted and 4.02 free throws made per game. Record of 29-17.

Is this where we should congratulate Gallo for a better free throw percentage? Your little agenda in regards to talking up Gallo while harping all over Melo is getting old. You did it over on RealGM and you're doing it here. Troll.

gunsnewing wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

Nalod wrote:

tkf wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:You gotta make it to the playoffs to have a playoff record right?

Knicks weren't even doing that before Melo.

they also weren't doing it before amare either...

The Playoff failure is not on Melo but the organizational roster construction. Starphuchs have a price and we paid it with a thin roster last season.

This year we are better constructed and with a coach better suited.

Everyone has "blame" when the organization fails. Melo has his share but so does Amare and Chandler.

Amare went 7/7 in last nites "Scrimmage" against the Magic. AMare is the wild card here. If he can regain his health and use his new toys he got from Hakeem but with greater efficency then it has great potential.

1+1 needs to equal 3!

And not a single thread about how good Amare looked or how fun it was to watch this win. Guys are just too fuking much with the negativity.

Check the game thread

or My Start Amare Now thread

Also don't know if you are referring to this thread being negative but it was created after getting blown out by the Sixers. Not lastnight. Melo played a flawless game last night

Melo played a great game on offense last night and this is exactly how he has to play.... ON OFFENSE. But lets also be realistic that he played like this against a team that had lost 17 of their last 19 games coming in.

Until we started hitting the 3 ball last night, we couldn't pull away in the 4th against the Magic? really? How many times did they hit 3s on screens, far too many times.

Both Melo and Amare have to graduate at least to come close to the passing abilities of Lebron and Kobe. It's not who they have been their careers so far, but neither has Kobe. To beat the best, you have to become the best. Nothing new there and it does start with your best players.

Even after a 7 of 7 outing against the Magic, I do not understand why Amare is not getting the ball more. Woodson is so STUBBORN. Run some plays for Amare out of timeouts dammit!! How is he being rewarded for his effort off the bench, by JR taking ill-advised shots? Why is Woodson so much in JR's corner? His performance was the best last night in what has seemed like a month and I hope it continues, but I wouldn't be surprised if Woodson keeps "hoping" JR becomes his go to guy off the bench as opposed to riding his studs (Melo and Amare).