GustavBahler wrote:

tkf wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

tkf wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

tkf wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:C'mon guys comparing Melo to Gallo? I believe Gallo was speaking of the mindset that any owner would have to allow a sexual harasser, a failure as an executive on pretty much every level, and someone who threw his own daughter under the bus to clear his name, to return to any organization.

I agree with him 100 percent on that but we haven't reached that point...yet. I don't agree with anyone comparing Melo to someone who has yet to prove that he is more than a borderline starter. Gallo might turn out to be something special but until he's shown that he is close to the player that Melo is, the comparisons should end. Not that it will.

And don't forget, coupled with the power of Wilson and Moz, and second round draft picks, the Nuggets as a franchise now make us look like a high school basketball team, talent-wise.

Also stay tuned to Raptorville for that first ballot HOF'er, that "pretty darned good player", Landry Fields!

Welcome to tkf world. LOL...LMAO...ROFL

Most of those guys are going to be trivia questions in a few years. I understand Melo getting some flack but not this much.

yea they will be, the question will be, who are the young players the knicks traded in which turned out to be the worst trade not only in knick history, but the NBA? you are 100% correct

I'm sorry TKF, the correct answer was "Who are the mostly inconsequential players who were traded for one of the best scorers in NBA history".

I want to thank you for playing, but you're not going empty handed. You are taking home a month supply of Rice a Roni, the San Francisco treat, a gift certificate from Botany 500, and a version of our home game! Thanks for playing.

more propaganda... LOL in order for carmelo to crack the top 20 all time he is going to need to score another 8k plus points, let me ask, do you think as he gets older he is going to score more, or less points.... I think it is safe to assume less points... to crack the top 10 he will need to score damn near 12k points.. LOL.. good luck... therefore how in the heck can he be considered one of the best scorers in NBA history, unless one of the best for you means top 30? right now carmelo is at 95...

I guess this goes along the lines as "best pures scorer" and the guy has never won a scoring title and finished second only once.....

only knick fans make greatness where it never existed.....

I'm talking about his ability to light up the scoreboard in short order. When Melo gets on a roll few people can stop him. I've heard guys like Magic and other HOFers refer to Melo that way. If he does play the way you want him to and exceeds your expectations of him will you admit it?

ok, so he is a very good streaky scorer.. listen no one called the guy a scrub, I just don't think as a "ball player" he is anywhere close to what many believe and there is pretty much a good amount of proof to back that up, if you are intent on not making excuses...

this league was full of great scorers, the problem is, carmelo is not so much a GREAT scorer, there is really no proof of that whatsoever.. now we can make that argument for guys like durant at this point, but carmelo has shown that he can be a GREAT streak scorer, one of the better STREAK players... his career 45% shooting, and the fact that he never won a scoring title, never averaged over 30ppg and only finished second once pretty much backs that up..

When Melo gets on a roll few people can stop him.

but come on, that can be said for a lot of players.... can you stop joe johnson when he gets on a roll? heck we all have witnessed jamal crawford 25 straight points vs the heat when he was with the knicks, there are a lot of players in the history of this game that can get rolling and not be stopped... most of them were never really GREAT players... too much emphasis on scoring... all I ask you, how is that helping us, or any team he has been on when it comes to contending.. it hasn't so far... that is all I am saying... It doesn't make for a good argument...

Melo's ability to score it in a variety of ways is also what sets him apart from most. As a jump shooter, as a post player, off the dribble, you name it. I'm surprised that you don't see that. Crawford was a great scorer but he was in a class by himself in taking ill advised shots and he couldn't post up like Melo can. Its that versatility which makes him so rare.

I'm not a poster who doesn't see Melo's flaws and I've pointed them out, so this isn't homerism. If you're going to point out the Knicks track record since he joined and leave out all the other factors like the roster, coaching, injuries etc you aren't being an honest broker. Not to metion that you haven't answered my question about this season. If Melo does play hard on both ends of the court, is instrumental in the Knicks contending, will you admit it?

it is doubtful the knicks are going on a long and deep, competitive playoff run. the reason is pretty straightforward: melo is not a number one player on a championship team. neither is stoudemire. both were paid as such, and in melo's case it wan't just money but human assets. say what you want about gallo, chandler, mozgov, and a relatively in-shape felton. it doesn't matter. you don't trade that many players away for a fair number two which is all melo really is. "but we got billups in the trade and we converted billups into chandler!" yeah so what. you still have two number twos who don't make others better or mesh with each other.

they are only fair number twos but they'd both be good to great number twos if only they could be great defenders. but together as they are they just don't add up to title contention.

dk7th wrote:supporters of anthony like to use the "he made it to the playoffs every year" canard. the underlying issue is not the making the playoffs but the seed. the nuggets almost always were in the lower bracket. in the bloated stern-nba the top 3 maybe 4 teams in either conference are the only legitimate contenders. the rest are really just cannon fodder and revenue streams for gullible fans who merely seek entertainment.

it is fair to say that when your best player doesn't make others around him better and does not lead by example defensively that the team will underachieve in the regular season and be exposed in the playoffs by having to play on the road. not only that but if he is not a true leader then the team will likely play down to the competition and lose to lesser teams, which should really never happen. and then finally there is the issue of devotion to fitness. no getting around that the dude has not been in supreme basketball shape for almost all of his pro career.

2004 8th seed
2005 7th seed
2006 3rd seed lost only 16 road games
2007 6th seed lost only 15 road games
2008 8th seed
2009 2nd seed 19-15 road record when he was in the lineup, played in 66 games
2010 4th seed

if carmelo was worth it he would have always helped his teams to the top 2 or 3 seeds in the conference every year.

great point dk, but of course there is the excuse of him not having anyone to play with and we know that isn't the truth.

also good point about melo and amare being "twos"... I agree and you just can't max out your payroll with twos... you need a team with depth, talent and cohesion if you can't get that true #1 player.....

dk7th wrote:supporters of anthony like to use the "he made it to the playoffs every year" canard. the underlying issue is not the making the playoffs but the seed. the nuggets almost always were in the lower bracket. in the bloated stern-nba the top 3 maybe 4 teams in either conference are the only legitimate contenders. the rest are really just cannon fodder and revenue streams for gullible fans who merely seek entertainment.

it is fair to say that when your best player doesn't make others around him better and does not lead by example defensively that the team will underachieve in the regular season and be exposed in the playoffs by having to play on the road. not only that but if he is not a true leader then the team will likely play down to the competition and lose to lesser teams, which should really never happen. and then finally there is the issue of devotion to fitness. no getting around that the dude has not been in supreme basketball shape for almost all of his pro career.

2004 8th seed
2005 7th seed
2006 3rd seed lost only 16 road games
2007 6th seed lost only 15 road games
2008 8th seed
2009 2nd seed 19-15 road record when he was in the lineup, played in 66 games
2010 4th seed

if carmelo was worth it he would have always helped his teams to the top 2 or 3 seeds in the conference every year.

This is another typical black-n-white blanket statement that does not peek beneath the surface. How can you say that Melo should have willed his teams to top 2-3 seeds every year in a very tough western conference without considering the competition. Since you refused to mention it, I'll do it for you.

2004 In Melo's rookie year, the Nuggs were the 8th seed. The top teams in the west were: The TWolves (KG, Spree, Cassell, etc) Spurs, Mavs, Sac, and the Lakers. Was a rookie suppoded to lead his team past those already established powerhouses?

2005 Second year in the league, the Nuggs were the 7th seed. The top teams out west were: A loaded Suns team who won 62 games, Spurs won 59, the Mavs 58, Sac 50, Seattle and Yao and Tmac's Rockets. Which one of those teams were a second year player supposed to beat out for a top 2-3 seed?

2007 The Mavs won 67 games, the Suns won 61, Spurs 58, the Rockets won 52. All of those teams were better all around than the Nuggs were.

2008 The Nuggets won 50 games and ended up as the 8th seed. 50 wins would have placed them 4th in the East ahead of Lebron and the Cavs who only won 45.

2010 Lakers won 57, Suns 54, Mavs 55 and the Spurs 50. All were better teams than the Nuggs that year.

Dude, basketball is a team sport, this aint tennis. How did Kobe do the year when Shaq was traded? 45 wins, 7th seed in the playoffs and a first round exit to a Suns team that had all around better players. When Shaq left the Heat, how did Wade do when he didn't have much help? Missed the playoffs, and knocked out of the 1st round the following 2 years. KG never did a damn thing with the T-Wolves, but then he's traded to the Celts, formed a big 3 and now he's looked at as a winner. Speaking of the big 3, Pierce and the Celts were just as bad as us during the Isiah years until, again, he got some help with Allen and KG.

Uptown wrote:

dk7th wrote:supporters of anthony like to use the "he made it to the playoffs every year" canard. the underlying issue is not the making the playoffs but the seed. the nuggets almost always were in the lower bracket. in the bloated stern-nba the top 3 maybe 4 teams in either conference are the only legitimate contenders. the rest are really just cannon fodder and revenue streams for gullible fans who merely seek entertainment.

it is fair to say that when your best player doesn't make others around him better and does not lead by example defensively that the team will underachieve in the regular season and be exposed in the playoffs by having to play on the road. not only that but if he is not a true leader then the team will likely play down to the competition and lose to lesser teams, which should really never happen. and then finally there is the issue of devotion to fitness. no getting around that the dude has not been in supreme basketball shape for almost all of his pro career.

2004 8th seed
2005 7th seed
2006 3rd seed lost only 16 road games
2007 6th seed lost only 15 road games
2008 8th seed
2009 2nd seed 19-15 road record when he was in the lineup, played in 66 games
2010 4th seed

if carmelo was worth it he would have always helped his teams to the top 2 or 3 seeds in the conference every year.

This is another typical black-n-white blanket statement that does not peek beneath the surface. How can you say that Melo should have willed his teams to top 2-3 seeds every year in a very tough western conference without considering the competition. Since you refused to mention it, I'll do it for you.

2004 In Melo's rookie year, the Nuggs were the 8th seed. The top teams in the west were: The TWolves (KG, Spree, Cassell, etc) Spurs, Mavs, Sac, and the Lakers. Was a rookie suppoded to lead his team past those already established powerhouses?

2005 Second year in the league, the Nuggs were the 7th seed. The top teams out west were: A loaded Suns team who won 62 games, Spurs won 59, the Mavs 58, Sac 50, Seattle and Yao and Tmac's Rockets. Which one of those teams were a second year player supposed to beat out for a top 2-3 seed?

2007 The Mavs won 67 games, the Suns won 61, Spurs 58, the Rockets won 52. All of those teams were better all around than the Nuggs were.

2008 The Nuggets won 50 games and ended up as the 8th seed. 50 wins would have placed them 4th in the East ahead of Lebron and the Cavs who only won 45.

2010 Lakers won 57, Suns 54, Mavs 55 and the Spurs 50. All were better teams than the Nuggs that year.

Dude, basketball is a team sport, this aint tennis. How did Kobe do the year when Shaq was traded? 45 wins, 7th seed in the playoffs and a first round exit to a Suns team that had all around better players. When Shaq left the Heat, how did Wade do when he didn't have much help? Missed the playoffs, and knocked out of the 1st round the following 2 years. KG never did a damn thing with the T-Wolves, but then he's traded to the Celts, formed a big 3 and now he's looked at as a winner. Speaking of the big 3, Pierce and the Celts were just as bad as us during the Isiah years until, again, he got some help with Allen and KG.

what i am taking away from your post is that carmelo anthony is not a true number one player. suns had nash who makes people better. duncan the same. lakers got gasol to help bryant who was dry after shaq. garnett and spree were pretty good number twos compared to melo. macgrady and ming pretty good number twos.

my point is that carmelo is not a number one player. he's a number two player, and a pretty good two player at that. too bad that he is mismatched with stat who is also a good number two player.

you don't play max money AND trade away human assets for a good number two player.

the underlying issue concerning gallinari being traded for carmelo is that gallinari's ceiling is as a number two player and if he reaches that plateau at 10 million per he is well worth it. instead we are stuck with a number two player who is costing twice as much in salary alone AND who we traded a good chunk of our rotation for, including gallo.

as you said it's a team game. shouldn't your best player be the best at making teammates better? for all his failings the one thing gallo is good at is playing the team game and meshing with others. you don't expect much more than that from a number two. ginobili and pippen are the rare exceptions. carmelo? for all his talent he just isn't good at meshing with others let alone making others better. that is the achilles heel for melo and the key to his underachieving.

there is a good reason why nba fans, let alone knick fans, are so divided over carmelo anthony.

holfresh wrote:Don't be silly...Melo is a number one no question...He is one of the best if not the best scorer of the basketball from anyplace on the court in today's NBA...He is one of two guys you want with the ball in their hands with 5 seconds left...If LeBron was a Knick, I want Melo with the ball with 5 seconds left...If Wade was a Knick, I want Melo with the ball with 5 seconds left...He rebounding is one of the best at the position, he can rebound with PFs...He can play multiple positions...He has played decent defense as a Knick...You have to divorce yourself from the hate to be objective...

none of the end-game heroics you are listing or his alleged scoring prowess make him a number one player.

Dude is making 10 million per and is still inconsistent. Did I mention his epic choking against the Lakers in the playoffs.

dk7th wrote:

Uptown wrote:

dk7th wrote:supporters of anthony like to use the "he made it to the playoffs every year" canard. the underlying issue is not the making the playoffs but the seed. the nuggets almost always were in the lower bracket. in the bloated stern-nba the top 3 maybe 4 teams in either conference are the only legitimate contenders. the rest are really just cannon fodder and revenue streams for gullible fans who merely seek entertainment.

it is fair to say that when your best player doesn't make others around him better and does not lead by example defensively that the team will underachieve in the regular season and be exposed in the playoffs by having to play on the road. not only that but if he is not a true leader then the team will likely play down to the competition and lose to lesser teams, which should really never happen. and then finally there is the issue of devotion to fitness. no getting around that the dude has not been in supreme basketball shape for almost all of his pro career.

2004 8th seed
2005 7th seed
2006 3rd seed lost only 16 road games
2007 6th seed lost only 15 road games
2008 8th seed
2009 2nd seed 19-15 road record when he was in the lineup, played in 66 games
2010 4th seed

if carmelo was worth it he would have always helped his teams to the top 2 or 3 seeds in the conference every year.

This is another typical black-n-white blanket statement that does not peek beneath the surface. How can you say that Melo should have willed his teams to top 2-3 seeds every year in a very tough western conference without considering the competition. Since you refused to mention it, I'll do it for you.

2004 In Melo's rookie year, the Nuggs were the 8th seed. The top teams in the west were: The TWolves (KG, Spree, Cassell, etc) Spurs, Mavs, Sac, and the Lakers. Was a rookie suppoded to lead his team past those already established powerhouses?

2005 Second year in the league, the Nuggs were the 7th seed. The top teams out west were: A loaded Suns team who won 62 games, Spurs won 59, the Mavs 58, Sac 50, Seattle and Yao and Tmac's Rockets. Which one of those teams were a second year player supposed to beat out for a top 2-3 seed?

2007 The Mavs won 67 games, the Suns won 61, Spurs 58, the Rockets won 52. All of those teams were better all around than the Nuggs were.

2008 The Nuggets won 50 games and ended up as the 8th seed. 50 wins would have placed them 4th in the East ahead of Lebron and the Cavs who only won 45.

2010 Lakers won 57, Suns 54, Mavs 55 and the Spurs 50. All were better teams than the Nuggs that year.

Dude, basketball is a team sport, this aint tennis. How did Kobe do the year when Shaq was traded? 45 wins, 7th seed in the playoffs and a first round exit to a Suns team that had all around better players. When Shaq left the Heat, how did Wade do when he didn't have much help? Missed the playoffs, and knocked out of the 1st round the following 2 years. KG never did a damn thing with the T-Wolves, but then he's traded to the Celts, formed a big 3 and now he's looked at as a winner. Speaking of the big 3, Pierce and the Celts were just as bad as us during the Isiah years until, again, he got some help with Allen and KG.

what i am taking away from your post is that carmelo anthony is not a true number one player. suns had nash who makes people better. duncan the same. lakers got gasol to help bryant who was dry after shaq. garnett and spree were pretty good number twos compared to melo. macgrady and ming pretty good number twos.

my point is that carmelo is not a number one player. he's a number two player, and a pretty good two player at that. too bad that he is mismatched with stat who is also a good number two player.

you don't play max money AND trade away human assets for a good number two player.

the underlying issue concerning gallinari being traded for carmelo is that gallinari's ceiling is as a number two player and if he reaches that plateau at 10 million per he is well worth it. instead we are stuck with a number two player who is costing twice as much in salary alone AND who we traded a good chunk of our rotation for, including gallo.

as you said it's a team game. shouldn't your best player be the best at making teammates better? for all his failings the one thing gallo is good at is playing the team game and meshing with others. you don't expect much more than that from a number two. ginobili and pippen are the rare exceptions. carmelo? for all his talent he just isn't good at meshing with others let alone making others better. that is the achilles heel for melo and the key to his underachieving.

there is a good reason why nba fans, let alone knick fans, are so divided over carmelo anthony.

First, Gallo does not belong in this particular convo, so I dont understand why he was brought up. He's a role player; not even close to a number 2 player so lets leave him out of this discussion.

Melo is a pure scoring SF. We all knew that before and after the trade. He's not a point forward similar to Lebron or Bird. He's a scorer, from the same bloodlines of Bernard King, Adrian Dantley, George Gervin, etc. There are ways to make players around you better, other than throwing no-look Magic Johnson pass. His presence on the floor, draws the attention of the defenders and opens it up for everyone else. He draws double teams, and often times his pass out of the double team will lead to another assisted pass for a score as the ball moves around the horn. Doesn't count in the score-books (it would in hockey) but this is an example of opening up the floor for others.

Melo did average a career high in assists this year and his career average for assists are on par with Bernard Kings career average. Keep in mind, it's alot easier to make really good to exceptional players (Magics Lakers, Stockton had Malone, Bird had the great Celts teams) better, than it is to make average to above average players better. Best 5 usually wins....

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:Don't be silly...Melo is a number one no question...He is one of the best if not the best scorer of the basketball from anyplace on the court in today's NBA...He is one of two guys you want with the ball in their hands with 5 seconds left...If LeBron was a Knick, I want Melo with the ball with 5 seconds left...If Wade was a Knick, I want Melo with the ball with 5 seconds left...He rebounding is one of the best at the position, he can rebound with PFs...He can play multiple positions...He has played decent defense as a Knick...You have to divorce yourself from the hate to be objective...

none of the end-game heroics you are listing or his alleged scoring prowess make him a number one player.

Question..Did he play like a number one player the last 24 games of last season?

no he didn't. he merely "beasted" and "put the team on his back." that's not the same as playing winning, successful basketball. it's a team game. this is woodson's fault too. the proof is he was smothered in the playoffs. number ones have other ways of contributing to winning, both in the regular season but especially in the playoffs. they adapt. they get their own and play for others. dirk is the most recent paradigm for carmelo to follow.

the problem with players like carmelo and stoudemire is that they don't make the right decisions with the ball most of the time. and having them play together merely compounds the problem.

So in your line of thinking...Woodson and Melo should have sacrificed the balance of the season to foster the attitude of playing "team" basketball with the remaining players who wasn't injured even if it meant losing games and not making the playoffs?

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:Don't be silly...Melo is a number one no question...He is one of the best if not the best scorer of the basketball from anyplace on the court in today's NBA...He is one of two guys you want with the ball in their hands with 5 seconds left...If LeBron was a Knick, I want Melo with the ball with 5 seconds left...If Wade was a Knick, I want Melo with the ball with 5 seconds left...He rebounding is one of the best at the position, he can rebound with PFs...He can play multiple positions...He has played decent defense as a Knick...You have to divorce yourself from the hate to be objective...

none of the end-game heroics you are listing or his alleged scoring prowess make him a number one player.

Question..Did he play like a number one player the last 24 games of last season?

no he didn't. he merely "beasted" and "put the team on his back." that's not the same as playing winning, successful basketball. it's a team game. this is woodson's fault too. the proof is he was smothered in the playoffs. number ones have other ways of contributing to winning, both in the regular season but especially in the playoffs. they adapt. they get their own and play for others. dirk is the most recent paradigm for carmelo to follow.

the problem with players like carmelo and stoudemire is that they don't make the right decisions with the ball most of the time. and having them play together merely compounds the problem.

The two times the Knicks made the playoffs, the roster was decimated by injuries. Kobe Bryant in his prime would not have willed the Knicks past the Celts or Heat with the MASH unit the Knicks trotted out in the playoffs.

Beasting and putting a team on his back is and always has been Kobe's M.O. * Disclaimer, no I'm not comparing Melo to Kobe. Just pointing out that Melo can get a team to the finals, but he needs the right pieces around him. I think we finally have the right formula (defense first) but I still believe we need to upgrade our backcourt a bit if we seriously want to challenge the Heat.

Uptown wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:Don't be silly...Melo is a number one no question...He is one of the best if not the best scorer of the basketball from anyplace on the court in today's NBA...He is one of two guys you want with the ball in their hands with 5 seconds left...If LeBron was a Knick, I want Melo with the ball with 5 seconds left...If Wade was a Knick, I want Melo with the ball with 5 seconds left...He rebounding is one of the best at the position, he can rebound with PFs...He can play multiple positions...He has played decent defense as a Knick...You have to divorce yourself from the hate to be objective...

none of the end-game heroics you are listing or his alleged scoring prowess make him a number one player.

Question..Did he play like a number one player the last 24 games of last season?

no he didn't. he merely "beasted" and "put the team on his back." that's not the same as playing winning, successful basketball. it's a team game. this is woodson's fault too. the proof is he was smothered in the playoffs. number ones have other ways of contributing to winning, both in the regular season but especially in the playoffs. they adapt. they get their own and play for others. dirk is the most recent paradigm for carmelo to follow.

the problem with players like carmelo and stoudemire is that they don't make the right decisions with the ball most of the time. and having them play together merely compounds the problem.

The two times the Knicks made the playoffs, the roster was decimated by injuries. Kobe Bryant in his prime would not have willed the Knicks past the Celts or Heat with the MASH unit the Knicks trotted out in the playoffs.

Beasting and putting a team on his back is and always has been Kobe's M.O. * Disclaimer, no I'm not comparing Melo to Kobe. Just pointing out that Melo can get a team to the finals, but he needs the right pieces around him. I think we finally have the right formula (defense first) but I still believe we need to upgrade our backcourt a bit if we seriously want to challenge the Heat.

All players need help.

don't recall LeBron winning it all prior to teaming up with fellow all-stars, and he's the best player in the league.

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:Don't be silly...Melo is a number one no question...He is one of the best if not the best scorer of the basketball from anyplace on the court in today's NBA...He is one of two guys you want with the ball in their hands with 5 seconds left...If LeBron was a Knick, I want Melo with the ball with 5 seconds left...If Wade was a Knick, I want Melo with the ball with 5 seconds left...He rebounding is one of the best at the position, he can rebound with PFs...He can play multiple positions...He has played decent defense as a Knick...You have to divorce yourself from the hate to be objective...

none of the end-game heroics you are listing or his alleged scoring prowess make him a number one player.

Question..Did he play like a number one player the last 24 games of last season?

no he didn't. he merely "beasted" and "put the team on his back." that's not the same as playing winning, successful basketball. it's a team game. this is woodson's fault too. the proof is he was smothered in the playoffs. number ones have other ways of contributing to winning, both in the regular season but especially in the playoffs. they adapt. they get their own and play for others. dirk is the most recent paradigm for carmelo to follow.

the problem with players like carmelo and stoudemire is that they don't make the right decisions with the ball most of the time. and having them play together merely compounds the problem.

So in your line of thinking...Woodson and Melo should have sacrificed the balance of the season to foster the attitude of playing "team" basketball with the remaining players who wasn't injured even if it meant losing games and not making the playoffs?

YES! if reasonable people like walsh were running the knicks that is what you do, both with the first half-season of 2010-2011 and again last season. but hysterical, greedy people are running the knicks. they prefer fool's gold results to patiently building a winner. carmelo and stoudemire are perfect at fulfilling the former as they have demonstrated.