newyorknewyork wrote:MDA so focused on making Melo a cough role player cough I mean "complete player". Yet had Amare for like 85% of his career and never cared about Amare developing a back to basket game, or passing ability out of the post.

You think that MDA should've tried to transform STAT into more of a post player or have him work on Post moves in order for him to be excel as a player? You do realize that Amar'e playing most of his career in MDA's system is one of the most efficient players in NBA HISTORY!!! Not just this current generation but of ALL TIME!!!

It simply can't be argued that MDA used STAT the wrong way. IN fact he couldn't have been used BETTER than how MDA decided to use him. STAT says he didn't like playing C, but his greatest success has come at the C position for much the same reason that Melo is proving to be best at PF. Mismatches!!! With a spread floor, good PG and shooters Amare has been virtually unstoppable in MDA's offense. In the previous year with Felton and STAT the team was the #5 most efficient offensive team in the league. All they needed was more defensive help. By the way it really doesn't preclude Amar'e from adding post moves in that offense either.

Now what happened is that the Knicks as a team have moved away from that and put together a team with Tyson and Melo on it and very little shooting and thus no room for STAT to play the way he's always played and been an All Star. NOW STAT has to change what he's been great at but it's only because of the change in the roster. We don't really know how successful Woody will be with this new style.

One really strange thing is that we've seen proof that Melo actually plays best when he's the focal point in a MDA style spread offense. When you take STAT off the floor and put Melo in that role as the main guy with shooters around him, he's much more effective. We saw that last year and to a certain extent Melo's shown this with the Olympic team when he's played as a PF and been successful. Thus MDA is not wrong in how he chooses to implement players on offense.

nixluva wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:MDA so focused on making Melo a cough role player cough I mean "complete player". Yet had Amare for like 85% of his career and never cared about Amare developing a back to basket game, or passing ability out of the post.

You think that MDA should've tried to transform STAT into more of a post player or have him work on Post moves in order for him to be excel as a player? You do realize that Amar'e playing most of his career in MDA's system is one of the most efficient players in NBA HISTORY!!! Not just this current generation but of ALL TIME!!!

It simply can't be argued that MDA used STAT the wrong way. IN fact he couldn't have been used BETTER than how MDA decided to use him. STAT says he didn't like playing C, but his greatest success has come at the C position for much the same reason that Melo is proving to be best at PF. Mismatches!!! With a spread floor, good PG and shooters Amare has been virtually unstoppable in MDA's offense. In the previous year with Felton and STAT the team was the #5 most efficient offensive team in the league. All they needed was more defensive help. By the way it really doesn't preclude Amar'e from adding post moves in that offense either.

Now what happened is that the Knicks as a team have moved away from that and put together a team with Tyson and Melo on it and very little shooting and thus no room for STAT to play the way he's always played and been an All Star. NOW STAT has to change what he's been great at but it's only because of the change in the roster. We don't really know how successful Woody will be with this new style.

One really strange thing is that we've seen proof that Melo actually plays best when he's the focal point in a MDA style spread offense. When you take STAT off the floor and put Melo in that role as the main guy with shooters around him, he's much more effective. We saw that last year and to a certain extent Melo's shown this with the Olympic team when he's played as a PF and been successful. Thus MDA is not wrong in how he chooses to implement players on offense.

Yet when Steve Nash went down with any injuries I don't think they ever won a game in Pheniox. Excelling as a player would come with it but its more about adding more dimensions and balance to your team so you don't have to rely on one player most likley a superstar PG to have consistent high levels of success. All that NBA efficiency didn't lead to any NBA championships or Amare being able to create shots for others himself and not relying on the PG. Because when good teams like the Spurs were able to slow the game down in crunch time and had the disipline to guard the PNR Suns had no other options to turn to. Or when the PG isn't Steve Nash or Raymond Felton and instead is Tony Douglas and Mike Bibby we are upset because they can't create easy buckets for Amare when Amare should be the one create open shots on the perimeter for them out of the post. It would also allow the PG to avoid having to take the physical toal he does under MDA instead he and Amare could take turns creating for each other and others either on the PNR or out of the post. There is absolutely no downside to Amare developing a post game.

Spacing is a problem with Tyson because on the PNR you would be bringing the PG inside the paint so someone like Tyson would need to camp around the perimeter to give him room. Amare with his back to the basket the PG gets to stay out on the perimeter. Tyson standing 15 ft away wouldn't be an hinderance and would probably lead to many dunks and layups for Tyson if his man has to double. If Amare developed a back to basket in his yrs with MDA then we would be versitile enough today to play Melo-Amare-Chandler without worrying about spacing issues.

newyorknewyork wrote:

nixluva wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:MDA so focused on making Melo a cough role player cough I mean "complete player". Yet had Amare for like 85% of his career and never cared about Amare developing a back to basket game, or passing ability out of the post.

You think that MDA should've tried to transform STAT into more of a post player or have him work on Post moves in order for him to be excel as a player? You do realize that Amar'e playing most of his career in MDA's system is one of the most efficient players in NBA HISTORY!!! Not just this current generation but of ALL TIME!!!

It simply can't be argued that MDA used STAT the wrong way. IN fact he couldn't have been used BETTER than how MDA decided to use him. STAT says he didn't like playing C, but his greatest success has come at the C position for much the same reason that Melo is proving to be best at PF. Mismatches!!! With a spread floor, good PG and shooters Amare has been virtually unstoppable in MDA's offense. In the previous year with Felton and STAT the team was the #5 most efficient offensive team in the league. All they needed was more defensive help. By the way it really doesn't preclude Amar'e from adding post moves in that offense either.

Now what happened is that the Knicks as a team have moved away from that and put together a team with Tyson and Melo on it and very little shooting and thus no room for STAT to play the way he's always played and been an All Star. NOW STAT has to change what he's been great at but it's only because of the change in the roster. We don't really know how successful Woody will be with this new style.

One really strange thing is that we've seen proof that Melo actually plays best when he's the focal point in a MDA style spread offense. When you take STAT off the floor and put Melo in that role as the main guy with shooters around him, he's much more effective. We saw that last year and to a certain extent Melo's shown this with the Olympic team when he's played as a PF and been successful. Thus MDA is not wrong in how he chooses to implement players on offense.

Yet when Steve Nash went down with any injuries I don't think they ever won a game in Pheniox. Excelling as a player would come with it but its more about adding more dimensions and balance to your team so you don't have to rely on one player most likley a superstar PG to have consistent high levels of success. All that NBA efficiency didn't lead to any NBA championships or Amare being able to create shots for others himself and not relying on the PG. Because when good teams like the Spurs were able to slow the game down in crunch time and had the disipline to guard the PNR Suns had no other options to turn to. Or when the PG isn't Steve Nash or Raymond Felton and instead is Tony Douglas and Mike Bibby we are upset because they can't create easy buckets for Amare when Amare should be the one create open shots on the perimeter for them out of the post. It would also allow the PG to avoid having to take the physical toal he does under MDA instead he and Amare could take turns creating for each other and others either on the PNR or out of the post. There is absolutely no downside to Amare developing a post game.

I've never felt that the PHX teams were perfect and I find it funny how others try to paint those teams as some kind of super teams when in fact they were good teams, but not great when you compare them to Title teams we've seen come out during this era. None of those teams were deep with talent like most Title teams are. If MDA had a can't miss team and failed to win a title I could see the point of criticism but he NEVER had the consensus best team in the West or the league. He actually got his team to overachieve in a season with no one over 6'9" but still got to the WCF's against the best competition in the league at that time. You can't hold it against him that he didn't win it all with a team like that. This is just more of the same BIAS that always comes about when talking about MDA. Did Woody ever get to the ECF's without his only serious big man over 6'9" who was the 2nd best player on his team?

Were there flaws in the make up of his teams? YES. Not having an even decent PG behind Nash was a big problem. If he had a guy that was even just DECENT at running a PnR we know from his time in NY that he would've been able to be successful when Nash didn't play. Here in NY with a capable PnR PG he was able to get the team to play at a high level offensively. In addition having a defensive anchor allowed his defensive system which many bashed over the years to be a top defense last year. This team played the exact same defensive system MDA always employed. Just finally with an actual defensive center in it. When MDA had Shump, Jared and Tyson they were able to execute his defense at a high level. If he had a player like Tyson on his PHX teams he may have won a title.

newyorknewyork wrote:

nixluva wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:MDA so focused on making Melo a cough role player cough I mean "complete player". Yet had Amare for like 85% of his career and never cared about Amare developing a back to basket game, or passing ability out of the post.

You think that MDA should've tried to transform STAT into more of a post player or have him work on Post moves in order for him to be excel as a player? You do realize that Amar'e playing most of his career in MDA's system is one of the most efficient players in NBA HISTORY!!! Not just this current generation but of ALL TIME!!!

It simply can't be argued that MDA used STAT the wrong way. IN fact he couldn't have been used BETTER than how MDA decided to use him. STAT says he didn't like playing C, but his greatest success has come at the C position for much the same reason that Melo is proving to be best at PF. Mismatches!!! With a spread floor, good PG and shooters Amare has been virtually unstoppable in MDA's offense. In the previous year with Felton and STAT the team was the #5 most efficient offensive team in the league. All they needed was more defensive help. By the way it really doesn't preclude Amar'e from adding post moves in that offense either.

Now what happened is that the Knicks as a team have moved away from that and put together a team with Tyson and Melo on it and very little shooting and thus no room for STAT to play the way he's always played and been an All Star. NOW STAT has to change what he's been great at but it's only because of the change in the roster. We don't really know how successful Woody will be with this new style.

One really strange thing is that we've seen proof that Melo actually plays best when he's the focal point in a MDA style spread offense. When you take STAT off the floor and put Melo in that role as the main guy with shooters around him, he's much more effective. We saw that last year and to a certain extent Melo's shown this with the Olympic team when he's played as a PF and been successful. Thus MDA is not wrong in how he chooses to implement players on offense.

Yet when Steve Nash went down with any injuries I don't think they ever won a game in Pheniox. Excelling as a player would come with it but its more about adding more dimensions and balance to your team so you don't have to rely on one player most likley a superstar PG to have consistent high levels of success. All that NBA efficiency didn't lead to any NBA championships or Amare being able to create shots for others himself and not relying on the PG. Because when good teams like the Spurs were able to slow the game down in crunch time and had the disipline to guard the PNR Suns had no other options to turn to. Or when the PG isn't Steve Nash or Raymond Felton and instead is Tony Douglas and Mike Bibby we are upset because they can't create easy buckets for Amare when Amare should be the one create open shots on the perimeter for them out of the post. It would also allow the PG to avoid having to take the physical toal he does under MDA instead he and Amare could take turns creating for each other and others either on the PNR or out of the post. There is absolutely no downside to Amare developing a post game.

Spacing is a problem with Tyson because on the PNR you would be bringing the PG inside the paint so someone like Tyson would need to camp around the perimeter to give him room. Amare with his back to the basket the PG gets to stay out on the perimeter. Tyson standing 15 ft away wouldn't be an hinderance and would probably lead to many dunks and layups for Tyson if his man has to double. If Amare developed a back to basket in his yrs with MDA then we would be versitile enough today to play Melo-Amare-Chandler without worrying about spacing issues.

Kudos man!!! You nailed on the head!

newyorknewyork wrote:

nixluva wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

nixluva wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:MDA so focused on making Melo a cough role player cough I mean "complete player". Yet had Amare for like 85% of his career and never cared about Amare developing a back to basket game, or passing ability out of the post.

You think that MDA should've tried to transform STAT into more of a post player or have him work on Post moves in order for him to be excel as a player? You do realize that Amar'e playing most of his career in MDA's system is one of the most efficient players in NBA HISTORY!!! Not just this current generation but of ALL TIME!!!

It simply can't be argued that MDA used STAT the wrong way. IN fact he couldn't have been used BETTER than how MDA decided to use him. STAT says he didn't like playing C, but his greatest success has come at the C position for much the same reason that Melo is proving to be best at PF. Mismatches!!! With a spread floor, good PG and shooters Amare has been virtually unstoppable in MDA's offense. In the previous year with Felton and STAT the team was the #5 most efficient offensive team in the league. All they needed was more defensive help. By the way it really doesn't preclude Amar'e from adding post moves in that offense either.

Now what happened is that the Knicks as a team have moved away from that and put together a team with Tyson and Melo on it and very little shooting and thus no room for STAT to play the way he's always played and been an All Star. NOW STAT has to change what he's been great at but it's only because of the change in the roster. We don't really know how successful Woody will be with this new style.

One really strange thing is that we've seen proof that Melo actually plays best when he's the focal point in a MDA style spread offense. When you take STAT off the floor and put Melo in that role as the main guy with shooters around him, he's much more effective. We saw that last year and to a certain extent Melo's shown this with the Olympic team when he's played as a PF and been successful. Thus MDA is not wrong in how he chooses to implement players on offense.

Yet when Steve Nash went down with any injuries I don't think they ever won a game in Pheniox. Excelling as a player would come with it but its more about adding more dimensions and balance to your team so you don't have to rely on one player most likley a superstar PG to have consistent high levels of success. All that NBA efficiency didn't lead to any NBA championships or Amare being able to create shots for others himself and not relying on the PG. Because when good teams like the Spurs were able to slow the game down in crunch time and had the disipline to guard the PNR Suns had no other options to turn to. Or when the PG isn't Steve Nash or Raymond Felton and instead is Tony Douglas and Mike Bibby we are upset because they can't create easy buckets for Amare when Amare should be the one create open shots on the perimeter for them out of the post. It would also allow the PG to avoid having to take the physical toal he does under MDA instead he and Amare could take turns creating for each other and others either on the PNR or out of the post. There is absolutely no downside to Amare developing a post game.

I've never felt that the PHX teams were perfect and I find it funny how others try to paint those teams as some kind of super teams when in fact they were good teams, but not great when you compare them to Title teams we've seen come out during this era. None of those teams were deep with talent like most Title teams are. If MDA had a can't miss team and failed to win a title I could see the point of criticism but he NEVER had the consensus best team in the West or the league. He actually got his team to overachieve in a season with no one over 6'9" but still got to the WCF's against the best competition in the league at that time. You can't hold it against him that he didn't win it all with a team like that. This is just more of the same BIAS that always comes about when talking about MDA. Did Woody ever get to the ECF's without his only serious big man over 6'9" who was the 2nd best player on his team?

Were there flaws in the make up of his teams? YES. Not having an even decent PG behind Nash was a big problem. If he had a guy that was even just DECENT at running a PnR we know from his time in NY that he would've been able to be successful when Nash didn't play. Here in NY with a capable PnR PG he was able to get the team to play at a high level offensively. In addition having a defensive anchor allowed his defensive system which many bashed over the years to be a top defense last year. This team played the exact same defensive system MDA always employed. Just finally with an actual defensive center in it. When MDA had Shump, Jared and Tyson they were able to execute his defense at a high level. If he had a player like Tyson on his PHX teams he may have won a title.

I'm not looking to rip MDA as a coach, thats not really my intention. Just exposing the viewpoint of MDA looking to turn guys like Melo into all around complete players but instead just products of a system. A system that hasn't proven to be a championship winner and relies to much on the PG and doesn't seem to have enough versatility and balance to it.

Maybe the Suns weren't a championship calibre team, but at the same time Amare was a 19yr old out of highschool with freakish atheltism good skill. Its not far fetched to believe that he could have been groomed to be a dominant all around force in the paint ala Keven Garnett or Tim Duncan rather then just a product of a system which in turn would have elevated the Suns to that Spurs level. The pick and roll is easy given his talent, Tyson Chandler was looking like a monster at times with Lin in the PNR. Amare with his athletism and skill out of high school should be a guy who averages 10+rebs, 2+blks, 5ast, a back to basket game creating for others, to go along with his natual ability off the PNR, and 15-18ft jump shot. Amare should be a guy who can carry teams to 50 win seasons out of the post as an offensive and defensive anchor.

I don't disagree with the merits of Amar'e adding post moves to his game now. Clearly that is a good thing. My point was more that it's not necessarily true that over the years it should've dawned on MDA to have Amar'e switch to the post given the success he had playing the way he was most effective and dominant for many years. It's not like Amar'e wasn't dominant in the style he was playing. Also the idea that Amar'e should be getting 10 rebs, 2 blks and 5 asts is fine except that we don't really know that he would excel being a passer out of the post. Funny that we're talking about changing Amar'e's game and there has been resistance to the idea of changing Melo to be more team oriented. At least Melo has shown an ability to pass the ball and score in other ways besides post ups. The change of Amar'e to a post player feeding shooters is totally untested and there's nothing to support the idea that he'd be successful in doing this, whereas there was plenty of evidence to suggest that Melo could be successful in a team oriented offense based on his olympic performances and some NBA experience as well.

IMO the lack of a title has nothing to do with whether MDA's system is good enough to win a title with. If you had given him the kind of defensive center most championship teams have i'm positive that would've aided in his chances to win a ring. The way the team defended last year using the exact system MDA has always employed underscores how much of an impact it makes to have defensive talent on your team in key positions. You need perimeter defenders which MDA had in PHX, but you also need a defensive anchor inside as well. As I pointed out Tyson proved what a difference it made to MDA's D to have a defensive center.

So few coaches get to a finals let alone win one that this can't be the only criteria for whether a coach is good or not. MDA's influence on the NBA is cemented regardless. He changed the way teams looked at the game and brought back more speed and excitement to the game after the league had slowed down to a halt. Many coaches have been using his principles to great success and the Heat won a title playing a small ball style, spread offense using many of his principles adapted to their roster. Very few coaches have had the same kind of impact on the league.

mrKnickShot wrote:I guess the Heat have MDA to thank for inventing some of the principles that helped the them win it all.

So ... MDA really HAS won a ring.

IMO one of the things MDA showed was how a team could still play highly efficient offense even if they didn't have a low post threat as many team didn't have. The Heat definitely applied the spread offense where the paint is left wide open for attack and defenses are so spread out that it's difficult to cover so much ground. Only the very best teams usually have the kind of defense that can handle such an attack. He didn't lose because the offense didn't work. He lost in the WCF's because his teams had no defensive anchor and they weren't deep teams. He got his teams to overachieve then people hold it against him cuz they couldn't get over the top. He became a victim of his success. Here in NY it was a different story.

mrKnickShot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:I guess the Heat have MDA to thank for inventing some of the principles that helped the them win it all.

So ... MDA really HAS won a ring.

IMO one of the things MDA showed was how a team could still play highly efficient offense even if they didn't have a low post threat as many team didn't have. The Heat definitely applied the spread offense where the paint is left wide open for attack and defenses are so spread out that it's difficult to cover so much ground. Only the very best teams usually have the kind of defense that can handle such an attack. He didn't lose because the offense didn't work. He lost in the WCF's because his teams had no defensive anchor and they weren't deep teams. He got his teams to overachieve then people hold it against him cuz they couldn't get over the top. He became a victim of his success. Here in NY it was a different story.

So any team that runs a spread offense, this offense is partly attributed to him? Nobody spread the floor before he came along?

dude, do you really need to nitpick on such an awful level? nix did not make that suggestion as you mention above.

martin wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:I guess the Heat have MDA to thank for inventing some of the principles that helped the them win it all.

So ... MDA really HAS won a ring.

IMO one of the things MDA showed was how a team could still play highly efficient offense even if they didn't have a low post threat as many team didn't have. The Heat definitely applied the spread offense where the paint is left wide open for attack and defenses are so spread out that it's difficult to cover so much ground. Only the very best teams usually have the kind of defense that can handle such an attack. He didn't lose because the offense didn't work. He lost in the WCF's because his teams had no defensive anchor and they weren't deep teams. He got his teams to overachieve then people hold it against him cuz they couldn't get over the top. He became a victim of his success. Here in NY it was a different story.

So any team that runs a spread offense, this offense is partly attributed to him? Nobody spread the floor before he came along?

dude, do you really need to nitpick on such an awful level? nix did not make that suggestion as you mention above.

mrKnickShot wrote:

martin wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:I guess the Heat have MDA to thank for inventing some of the principles that helped the them win it all.

So ... MDA really HAS won a ring.

IMO one of the things MDA showed was how a team could still play highly efficient offense even if they didn't have a low post threat as many team didn't have. The Heat definitely applied the spread offense where the paint is left wide open for attack and defenses are so spread out that it's difficult to cover so much ground. Only the very best teams usually have the kind of defense that can handle such an attack. He didn't lose because the offense didn't work. He lost in the WCF's because his teams had no defensive anchor and they weren't deep teams. He got his teams to overachieve then people hold it against him cuz they couldn't get over the top. He became a victim of his success. Here in NY it was a different story.

So any team that runs a spread offense, this offense is partly attributed to him? Nobody spread the floor before he came along?

dude, do you really need to nitpick on such an awful level? nix did not make that suggestion as you mention above.

I believe that this statement does make that suggestion:

"Many coaches have been using his principles to great success and the Heat won a title playing a small ball style, spread offense using many of his principles adapted to their roster."

But possibly still nitpicking

nah dude, dont put words into other people's posts. bad assumption. in fact, it's an awful assumption and not at all what was expressed.

They killed Linsanity but they could do it to any guard in the NBA. A more experienced guard with a healthy full NBA roster could adapt.

Lin was seeing the "Blitz" for the first time.

It was impressive.

nixluva wrote:

Coach Eric Spoelstra’s new offensive philosophy, termed the “pace and space,” is already paying dividends. When you feature two of the NBA’s best players, it only makes sense to intensify your attack and maximize offensive opportunities.

Read more: http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-12-28/sports/30564133_1_nba-jam-james-and-wade-video-game#ixzz23Rk4RVqE

Spoelstra is a good, smart coach, and I give him credit for tweaking the Heat’s early offense this season by incorporating a three-man pick-and-roll game on either side of the floor on semi-transition possessions when no set play has been called.

Only two other teams in the league have run such an action this season: the Knicks, when they were coached by Mike D’Antoni, and the Suns, who still run his offense.

http://www.spoelstraheat.com/tag/mike-d%E2%80%99antoni/

With Stoudemire out for Game 3 (and according to the Knicks, likely beyond that), New York is expected to spread the floor more often and play a more perimeter-oriented lineup, with Carmelo Anthony switching from small forward to power forward. That puts the onus on the Heat to stick close to the Knicks’ three-point shooters.

“That is exactly what we do,” Heat forward Chris Bosh said. “We have the speed, we have the IQ to chase those guys down.”

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/03/2780434/miami-heat-expects-spread-offense.html#storylink=cpy

So my assumption was correct.

Though, good data to back it up Nixluva

MDA definitely has a good offensive mind. My only issue with it was: If you don't have the horses to run your "system" then you have to be willing to switch it up. I felt that MDA would not / will not change his system based on personnel as Pat Riley has done with the Lakers, Knicks and Heat.