Bonn1997 wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

nixluva wrote:None of this other crap matters. What matters is that Melo has to get it right this time. He doesn't have MDA around to blame. He doesn't have Lin to blame for not getting enough touches in the post. Now it's all on Melo!!! This year it's all about Melo and how he approaches this season. He has run out of excuses. He's got 3 PG's 2 of whom are pass 1st almost never looking to score. Melo should be in GREAT shape coming into the season so that shouldn't be an issue. It's all laid out in front of Melo.

So if Melo succeeds deos it validate the excuses brought up the past yr?

MDA relied on spacing and strong pg play and we didn't have neither for majority of the season. I don't blame MDA or Melo for it not working the pieces to the puzzle didn't match. If Smith and Fields shot 40% from 3 and Davis or Bibby was 8yrs younger then MDA would probably still be with the knicks and we wouldn't have had the problems we had last season.

Melo would have been able to save MDA's job unless he turned into Magic Johnson with the assist & Larry Bird at the 3pt line.

I disagree with this; I don’t see how a great offensive player could not work with a great offensive coach. Look at Melo’s stats after he got traded to the Knicks in 27 games (26ppg with 3apg and 6.7rpg on 46fg %). He even averaged 26ppg with 5apg and 10rpg in the playoffs against the Celtics and if I remember correctly, Toney Douglas was still our point guard and MDA was still our coach, so system was not the problem.

Honestly, I feel that for some reason unknown to the fans, Melo didn’t want to commit to MDA anymore, and when your best player does that in the NBA, coaches usually resign or they get fired (like Stan Van Gundy in Orlnado). Please know that I’m not knocking Melo or anything for this, I’m just expressing what I felt happened according to my own analytical view of the games.

I think once they had a full season together, MDA rightly tried to convert Melo from being a chucker into a well-rounded play-maker who takes high quality shots and sets up his teammates well, and Melo either didn't want to or was unable to do that.

Well Melo averaged 5apg against the Celtics, so obviously his able, now I'm not sure he really wanted to play that way.

That also came with .375 shooting (if you're talking about the 2011 playoffs). My comment was about MDA wanting to make Melo both an efficient scorer and good passer.

Melo is a good passer. He's not Lebron and is never going to average 6+ assists a game. However, a pass that leads to an assist is still a good pass.

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

nixluva wrote:None of this other crap matters. What matters is that Melo has to get it right this time. He doesn't have MDA around to blame. He doesn't have Lin to blame for not getting enough touches in the post. Now it's all on Melo!!! This year it's all about Melo and how he approaches this season. He has run out of excuses. He's got 3 PG's 2 of whom are pass 1st almost never looking to score. Melo should be in GREAT shape coming into the season so that shouldn't be an issue. It's all laid out in front of Melo.

So if Melo succeeds deos it validate the excuses brought up the past yr?

MDA relied on spacing and strong pg play and we didn't have neither for majority of the season. I don't blame MDA or Melo for it not working the pieces to the puzzle didn't match. If Smith and Fields shot 40% from 3 and Davis or Bibby was 8yrs younger then MDA would probably still be with the knicks and we wouldn't have had the problems we had last season.

Melo would have been able to save MDA's job unless he turned into Magic Johnson with the assist & Larry Bird at the 3pt line.

I disagree with this; I don’t see how a great offensive player could not work with a great offensive coach. Look at Melo’s stats after he got traded to the Knicks in 27 games (26ppg with 3apg and 6.7rpg on 46fg %). He even averaged 26ppg with 5apg and 10rpg in the playoffs against the Celtics and if I remember correctly, Toney Douglas was still our point guard and MDA was still our coach, so system was not the problem.

Honestly, I feel that for some reason unknown to the fans, Melo didn’t want to commit to MDA anymore, and when your best player does that in the NBA, coaches usually resign or they get fired (like Stan Van Gundy in Orlnado). Please know that I’m not knocking Melo or anything for this, I’m just expressing what I felt happened according to my own analytical view of the games.

I think once they had a full season together, MDA rightly tried to convert Melo from being a chucker into a well-rounded play-maker who takes high quality shots and sets up his teammates well, and Melo either didn't want to or was unable to do that.

Well Melo averaged 5apg against the Celtics, so obviously his able, now I'm not sure he really wanted to play that way.

That also came with .375 shooting (if you're talking about the 2011 playoffs). My comment was about MDA wanting to make Melo both an efficient scorer and good passer.

Melo is a good passer. He's not Lebron and is never going to average 6+ assists a game. However, a pass that leads to an assist is still a good pass.

Are you saying the assist-turnover ratio for Melo is misleading because he makes a disproportionately high number of passes that lead to assists? That's sheer speculation. If that's not your point, then I don't see what the relevance of your comment is.

Melo is an OK passer, if he wants to be consider a good passer, he has to lower his TO ratio, sorry but you can’t average 3apg with 3to pg and still be consider a good passer.

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

nixluva wrote:None of this other crap matters. What matters is that Melo has to get it right this time. He doesn't have MDA around to blame. He doesn't have Lin to blame for not getting enough touches in the post. Now it's all on Melo!!! This year it's all about Melo and how he approaches this season. He has run out of excuses. He's got 3 PG's 2 of whom are pass 1st almost never looking to score. Melo should be in GREAT shape coming into the season so that shouldn't be an issue. It's all laid out in front of Melo.

So if Melo succeeds deos it validate the excuses brought up the past yr?

MDA relied on spacing and strong pg play and we didn't have neither for majority of the season. I don't blame MDA or Melo for it not working the pieces to the puzzle didn't match. If Smith and Fields shot 40% from 3 and Davis or Bibby was 8yrs younger then MDA would probably still be with the knicks and we wouldn't have had the problems we had last season.

Melo would have been able to save MDA's job unless he turned into Magic Johnson with the assist & Larry Bird at the 3pt line.

I disagree with this; I don’t see how a great offensive player could not work with a great offensive coach. Look at Melo’s stats after he got traded to the Knicks in 27 games (26ppg with 3apg and 6.7rpg on 46fg %). He even averaged 26ppg with 5apg and 10rpg in the playoffs against the Celtics and if I remember correctly, Toney Douglas was still our point guard and MDA was still our coach, so system was not the problem.

Honestly, I feel that for some reason unknown to the fans, Melo didn’t want to commit to MDA anymore, and when your best player does that in the NBA, coaches usually resign or they get fired (like Stan Van Gundy in Orlnado). Please know that I’m not knocking Melo or anything for this, I’m just expressing what I felt happened according to my own analytical view of the games.

I think once they had a full season together, MDA rightly tried to convert Melo from being a chucker into a well-rounded play-maker who takes high quality shots and sets up his teammates well, and Melo either didn't want to or was unable to do that.

Well Melo averaged 5apg against the Celtics, so obviously his able, now I'm not sure he really wanted to play that way.

That also came with .375 shooting (if you're talking about the 2011 playoffs). My comment was about MDA wanting to make Melo both an efficient scorer and good passer.

Melo is a good passer. He's not Lebron and is never going to average 6+ assists a game. However, a pass that leads to an assist is still a good pass.

Are you saying the assist-turnover ratio for Melo is misleading because he makes a disproportionately high number of passes that lead to assists? That's sheer speculation. If that's not your point, then I don't see what the relevance of your comment is.

No what I'm saying is that assist numbers do not 100% dictate if a player is a good passer or not. Melo is never going to be a high assist guy but to conclude that he's not a good passer based his assist numbers is faulty logic.

Melo last year had a ast/to ratio of 1.39 If we're basing AST/TO ratio as the sole basis as to a player being a good passer or not then the following players are not good passers either.

Lebron James 1.82 (46th)
Dwayne Wade 1.74 (48th)
Kyrie Irving 1.72 (50th)

What I am saying is that a good pass does not always lead to an assist and does not show up in a boxscore.

For example, see the below video. 5 possessions 1 assist but good passing all the way around.

100%? You're just making a straw man argument.

CashMoney wrote:
For example, see the below video. 5 possessions 1 assist but good passing all the way around.

That video is a work of basketball art. I can't wait for this upcoming season.

KnicksFE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

nixluva wrote:None of this other crap matters. What matters is that Melo has to get it right this time. He doesn't have MDA around to blame. He doesn't have Lin to blame for not getting enough touches in the post. Now it's all on Melo!!! This year it's all about Melo and how he approaches this season. He has run out of excuses. He's got 3 PG's 2 of whom are pass 1st almost never looking to score. Melo should be in GREAT shape coming into the season so that shouldn't be an issue. It's all laid out in front of Melo.

So if Melo succeeds deos it validate the excuses brought up the past yr?

MDA relied on spacing and strong pg play and we didn't have neither for majority of the season. I don't blame MDA or Melo for it not working the pieces to the puzzle didn't match. If Smith and Fields shot 40% from 3 and Davis or Bibby was 8yrs younger then MDA would probably still be with the knicks and we wouldn't have had the problems we had last season.

Melo would have been able to save MDA's job unless he turned into Magic Johnson with the assist & Larry Bird at the 3pt line.

I disagree with this; I don’t see how a great offensive player could not work with a great offensive coach. Look at Melo’s stats after he got traded to the Knicks in 27 games (26ppg with 3apg and 6.7rpg on 46fg %). He even averaged 26ppg with 5apg and 10rpg in the playoffs against the Celtics and if I remember correctly, Toney Douglas was still our point guard and MDA was still our coach, so system was not the problem.

Honestly, I feel that for some reason unknown to the fans, Melo didn’t want to commit to MDA anymore, and when your best player does that in the NBA, coaches usually resign or they get fired (like Stan Van Gundy in Orlnado). Please know that I’m not knocking Melo or anything for this, I’m just expressing what I felt happened according to my own analytical view of the games.

I think once they had a full season together, MDA rightly tried to convert Melo from being a chucker into a well-rounded play-maker who takes high quality shots and sets up his teammates well, and Melo either didn't want to or was unable to do that.

Well Melo averaged 5apg against the Celtics, so obviously his able, now I'm not sure he really wanted to play that way.

That also came with .375 shooting (if you're talking about the 2011 playoffs). My comment was about MDA wanting to make Melo both an efficient scorer and good passer.

Melo is a good passer. He's not Lebron and is never going to average 6+ assists a game. However, a pass that leads to an assist is still a good pass.

Are you saying the assist-turnover ratio for Melo is misleading because he makes a disproportionately high number of passes that lead to assists? That's sheer speculation. If that's not your point, then I don't see what the relevance of your comment is.

Melo is an OK passer, if he wants to be consider a good passer, he has to lower his TO ratio, sorry but you can’t average 3apg with 3to pg and still be consider a good passer.

Why not if you avg 2 offensive fouls a game? I am not saying that he does but his style of play leads to many charges more so than bad passes. Either way his assist needs to go up.

yellowboy90 wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

nixluva wrote:None of this other crap matters. What matters is that Melo has to get it right this time. He doesn't have MDA around to blame. He doesn't have Lin to blame for not getting enough touches in the post. Now it's all on Melo!!! This year it's all about Melo and how he approaches this season. He has run out of excuses. He's got 3 PG's 2 of whom are pass 1st almost never looking to score. Melo should be in GREAT shape coming into the season so that shouldn't be an issue. It's all laid out in front of Melo.

So if Melo succeeds deos it validate the excuses brought up the past yr?

MDA relied on spacing and strong pg play and we didn't have neither for majority of the season. I don't blame MDA or Melo for it not working the pieces to the puzzle didn't match. If Smith and Fields shot 40% from 3 and Davis or Bibby was 8yrs younger then MDA would probably still be with the knicks and we wouldn't have had the problems we had last season.

Melo would have been able to save MDA's job unless he turned into Magic Johnson with the assist & Larry Bird at the 3pt line.

I disagree with this; I don’t see how a great offensive player could not work with a great offensive coach. Look at Melo’s stats after he got traded to the Knicks in 27 games (26ppg with 3apg and 6.7rpg on 46fg %). He even averaged 26ppg with 5apg and 10rpg in the playoffs against the Celtics and if I remember correctly, Toney Douglas was still our point guard and MDA was still our coach, so system was not the problem.

Honestly, I feel that for some reason unknown to the fans, Melo didn’t want to commit to MDA anymore, and when your best player does that in the NBA, coaches usually resign or they get fired (like Stan Van Gundy in Orlnado). Please know that I’m not knocking Melo or anything for this, I’m just expressing what I felt happened according to my own analytical view of the games.

I think once they had a full season together, MDA rightly tried to convert Melo from being a chucker into a well-rounded play-maker who takes high quality shots and sets up his teammates well, and Melo either didn't want to or was unable to do that.

Well Melo averaged 5apg against the Celtics, so obviously his able, now I'm not sure he really wanted to play that way.

That also came with .375 shooting (if you're talking about the 2011 playoffs). My comment was about MDA wanting to make Melo both an efficient scorer and good passer.

Melo is a good passer. He's not Lebron and is never going to average 6+ assists a game. However, a pass that leads to an assist is still a good pass.

Are you saying the assist-turnover ratio for Melo is misleading because he makes a disproportionately high number of passes that lead to assists? That's sheer speculation. If that's not your point, then I don't see what the relevance of your comment is.

Melo is an OK passer, if he wants to be consider a good passer, he has to lower his TO ratio, sorry but you can’t average 3apg with 3to pg and still be consider a good passer.

Why not if you avg 2 offensive fouls a game? I am not saying that he does but his style of play leads to many charges more so than bad passes. Either way his assist needs to go up.

I'm not sure if Melo will ever be a high assist guy, but either that or the TO must come down a little bit.

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:Straw man?! "No what I'm saying is that assist numbers do not 100% dictate if a player is a good passer or not" - FIXED

OK, I'll play along. What dictates if a player is a good passer or not?

Since no one said they do 100% dictate it, yes it is a straw man. You don't need a 100% perfect measure to determine if someone is a good passer or not. If he's a good passer, he's not gonna have a 1:1 assist turnover ratio. It will be much better. It's hard to be objective with players on your team. Can you name some wing players on other teams with 1:1 assist turnover ratios that are good passers?

Lebron James, 1.86 assist to turover ratio last season. Kevin Durant .93 last season. Melo was at 1.36.

How about answering my question? What dictates what makes a player a good passer or not?

FoeDiddy wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:Straw man?! "No what I'm saying is that assist numbers do not 100% dictate if a player is a good passer or not" - FIXED

OK, I'll play along. What dictates if a player is a good passer or not?

Since no one said they do 100% dictate it, yes it is a straw man. You don't need a 100% perfect measure to determine if someone is a good passer or not. If he's a good passer, he's not gonna have a 1:1 assist turnover ratio. It will be much better. It's hard to be objective with players on your team. Can you name some wing players on other teams with 1:1 assist turnover ratios that are good passers?

Lebron James, 1.86 assist to turover ratio last season. Kevin Durant .93 last season. Melo was at 1.36.

How about answering my question? What dictates what makes a player a good passer or not?

I thought I did answer your question but maybe I'm just not understanding what you mean by "dictate." Again, assist turnover ratio is as good a measure as any. Durant is not a good passer. He is a very efficient scorer though. Lebron's ratio is not even remotely close to 1:1.

I wonder what his 1.36 ranks among Small Forwards? that would be the best measure to see if he is a good passer for his position. comparing him to Lebron, the best talent in the league is unfair. How does he compare against others playing his same position. He's not the point guard correct?

Obviously that's only 7 players. If you look at all (rather than only qualified) SFs, it's 34 out 77.
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/assists/sort/assistTurnoverRatio/qualified/false/position/small-forwards

Basically in a career year as far as A/TO ratio goes, he was average.

Bonn1997 wrote:

FoeDiddy wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:Straw man?! "No what I'm saying is that assist numbers do not 100% dictate if a player is a good passer or not" - FIXED

OK, I'll play along. What dictates if a player is a good passer or not?

Since no one said they do 100% dictate it, yes it is a straw man. You don't need a 100% perfect measure to determine if someone is a good passer or not. If he's a good passer, he's not gonna have a 1:1 assist turnover ratio. It will be much better. It's hard to be objective with players on your team. Can you name some wing players on other teams with 1:1 assist turnover ratios that are good passers?

Lebron James, 1.86 assist to turover ratio last season. Kevin Durant .93 last season. Melo was at 1.36.

How about answering my question? What dictates what makes a player a good passer or not?

I thought I did answer your question but maybe I'm just not understanding what you mean by "dictate." Again, assist turnover ratio is as good a measure as any. Durant is not a good passer. He is a very efficient scorer though. Lebron's ratio is not even remotely close to 1:1.

I wonder what his 1.36 ranks among Small Forwards? that would be the best measure to see if he is a good passer for his position. comparing him to Lebron, the best talent in the league is unfair. How does he compare against others playing his same position. He's not the point guard correct?

6th out of the 7 who qualify
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/assists/sort/assistTurnoverRatio/position/small-forwards

Obviously that's only 7 players. If you look at all (rather than only qualified) SFs, it's 34 out 77.
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/assists/sort/assistTurnoverRatio/qualified/false/position/small-forwards

Basically in a career year as far as A/TO ratio goes, he was average.

So if only 7 qualify can we conclude that their are only 7 Small Forwards in the league who have enough usage to even be considered. 30 teams and only 7 Small Forwards in the league who even qualify to be considered good passers. How does that make him average among Small Forwards?