If we are a radical right wing country, why can't Alan Keyes get elected dog catcher or postmaster general or even to an Illinois senate seat that Obama didn't even want or need?

Just asking.

Bonn1997 wrote:Except that our "radical left" would be mainstream in any other industrialized country. But we have a radical right-wing country overall. So by global standards, views that are mainstream fall in our radical left.

You do realize we are the most sought after destination on the planet. Mostly for the things that we stand for and the opportunities that our country provides? We are a draw because we are not like every other country on the planet. That's part of what makes us great

Bippity10 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Except that our "radical left" would be mainstream in any other industrialized country. But we have a radical right-wing country overall. So by global standards, views that are mainstream fall in our radical left.

You do realize we are the most sought after destination on the planet.

arkrud wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

martin wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Except that our "radical left" would be mainstream in any other industrialized country. But we have a radical right-wing country overall. So by global standards, views that are mainstream fall in our radical left.

You do realize we are the most sought after destination on the planet. Mostly for the things that we stand for and the opportunities that our country provides? We are a draw because we are not like every other country on the planet. That's part of what makes us great

those things may be true but don't at all address or talk to anything bonnie is saying.

For all of our opportunities, we don't have the best healthcare system (certainly the most advanced is most areas), we don't have the best educational system in term of what is being produced at the high school level, we have the greatest disparity between the middle class and rich amongst income distribution over the past few decades for advance industrial democracies.

We are the most sought after destination for a lot of reasons: land space, religious freedom, humanitarian rights.

So what are the reasons behind this? From my point of view it's because we waste billions of dollars on political solutions that will get people elected instead of spending money on common sense solutions that could make a difference. We spend bazillions of dollars on education and yet our results go down yearly. We have regulations in place to stop much of the corporate corruption and yet little is done. We spend billions of dollars giving free money to people who take advantage of the system, without asking them to contribute in return. We spend billions on wars that don't make us safer adn countless other items that gather votes for politicians but do nothing to lower the income gap. All the while people applaud their "team"(republicans or democrats) for the decisions they make. They applaud their ideology of liberalism or conservatism as if their "team" is making a difference. All the while, every year we move further and further away from the principles that made us a great country and yet can't figure out why we are going down the tubes.

I think we are getting close to the point.
So what are this great principals and how many people are still ready to accept them?
If people will be given same opportunities and responsibilities not too many will be able to make it and this was always the case.
The only difference our days nobody want to accept it anymore.
People think that they entitled to great live just by the fact that they are leaving in America. So why bother to work hard for it?

Live great? Can you be any less specific? How about when corporations ruin people's lives? Should people be entitled to not have this happen to them? One of the main points in OWS is corporations

Polluted ponds, lost cattle
Terry Greenwood says gas drilling killed his livestock and ruined his 60-acre farm in the hills outside Daisytown in western Pennsylvania.

Greenwood said he knew there was an old gas lease on the farm when he bought it in 1988.

A former owner had signed with Peoples Natural Gas Co. in 1921. In 2007, he said, a representative of Dominion Exploration and Production, based in Indiana, Pa., stopped by to tell him that the company had purchased the 1921 lease and planned to drill two wells on his property.

“He sat right there,” Greenwood said, pointing to a chair at his kitchen table. “His exact words were ‘There’s no use fighting us. Dominion has more money than you. You’ll lose.’ ”

Within a few months of drilling, a spring on his property ran dry, and his well produced brown water filled with manganese and iron.

“We were farming for 18 years, and I never had this problem,” Greenwood said.

Between April 2008 and January 2009, 10 calves from his 19-head herd were stillborn, he said.

Greenwood, 63, said he believes that chemicals and other drilling waste seeped through the ground from drilling sites to a pond that his cattle used for water.

In March 2008, the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection ordered the company to find a permanent replacement for Greenwood’s lost water. Now, he waters his herd and draws water for his home from a 2,000-gallon tank the energy company pays to fill each week.

Consol Energy, which bought the lease in March, wrote in an email that the company has drilled a new water well for Greenwood and expects the state will soon approve it as a replacement water supply.

Health concerns
Beth Voyles and her daughter live on a 16-acre farm about 15 miles west of Greenwood’s place, where they raise and sell barrel-racing horses and boxer dogs.

Voyles said fracturing chemicals seeped into the ground and evaporated into the air from a 15-million-gallon wastewater pond that a drilling company carved into a hill just east of her farm.

Range Resources, a company based in Fort Worth, Texas, built the pond in January 2010 to store wastewater from nearby, recently drilled wells. The company reuses the water in new wells.

Voyles, 53, said the air is polluted and nearby drilling caused her well and a spring used by the family to run dry.

The family’s champion barrel horse and prized boxer both died in 2010. She said the horse died after losing more than 100 pounds, and tests showed that the boxer had been poisoned by ethylene glycol.

Voyles said that tests have detected benzene, toluene and arsenic in her blood and urine. She said she suffers from chronic skin rashes and blisters in her nose and mouth. In April, doctors diagnosed cervical cancer in her 23-year-old daughter, Ashley.

Voyles sued the state of Pennsylvania in May, demanding a thorough investigation and that it share information with area residents.

“I want my life back. I want my family’s life back and my daughter’s,” Voyles said.

Range Resources spokesman Matt Pitzarella says the wastewater is treated before it is put in the plastic-lined pond, and only salt remains.

The company and state have found no evidence that links the family’s illnesses and animal deaths to the pond or to drilling, he said.

However, the company drilled a new well for the Voyleses.

“Our perspective is that, if you have a concern, real or perceived, we will do whatever we can to make sure our operations don’t have an impact,” Pitzarella said.

Taken from http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2011/09/25/fracking-future.html a newspaper in Ohio.

One of the main points on OWS is corporations doing whatever they want, turning our lives into living HELL on earth, literally. For all the talk that evangelicals do about evolution and gay marriage, how about poisoning the planet that our Creator gave us? You talk about "bother to work hard for it"? You are probably not talking about a part of OWS, the students that worked hard to earn a degree, and now are stuck with a student loan that they cannot repay, because the job market is not there to support them. They want to "bother to work hard for it" , but they just don't have the "opportunity" which America is so famous for. "Most sought after destination on the planet" ? While still better than a lot of other countries it is far from what it was 15-20 years ago.

arkrud wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

arkrud wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

martin wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Except that our "radical left" would be mainstream in any other industrialized country. But we have a radical right-wing country overall. So by global standards, views that are mainstream fall in our radical left.

You do realize we are the most sought after destination on the planet. Mostly for the things that we stand for and the opportunities that our country provides? We are a draw because we are not like every other country on the planet. That's part of what makes us great

those things may be true but don't at all address or talk to anything bonnie is saying.

For all of our opportunities, we don't have the best healthcare system (certainly the most advanced is most areas), we don't have the best educational system in term of what is being produced at the high school level, we have the greatest disparity between the middle class and rich amongst income distribution over the past few decades for advance industrial democracies.

We are the most sought after destination for a lot of reasons: land space, religious freedom, humanitarian rights.

So what are the reasons behind this? From my point of view it's because we waste billions of dollars on political solutions that will get people elected instead of spending money on common sense solutions that could make a difference. We spend bazillions of dollars on education and yet our results go down yearly. We have regulations in place to stop much of the corporate corruption and yet little is done. We spend billions of dollars giving free money to people who take advantage of the system, without asking them to contribute in return. We spend billions on wars that don't make us safer adn countless other items that gather votes for politicians but do nothing to lower the income gap. All the while people applaud their "team"(republicans or democrats) for the decisions they make. They applaud their ideology of liberalism or conservatism as if their "team" is making a difference. All the while, every year we move further and further away from the principles that made us a great country and yet can't figure out why we are going down the tubes.

I think we are getting close to the point.
So what are this great principals and how many people are still ready to accept them?
If people will be given same opportunities and responsibilities not too many will be able to make it and this was always the case.
The only difference our days nobody want to accept it anymore.
People think that they entitled to great live just by the fact that they are leaving in America. So why bother to work hard for it?

Live great? Can you be any less specific? How about when corporations ruin people's lives? Should people be entitled to not have this happen to them? One of the main points in OWS is corporations

Polluted ponds, lost cattle
Terry Greenwood says gas drilling killed his livestock and ruined his 60-acre farm in the hills outside Daisytown in western Pennsylvania.

Greenwood said he knew there was an old gas lease on the farm when he bought it in 1988.

A former owner had signed with Peoples Natural Gas Co. in 1921. In 2007, he said, a representative of Dominion Exploration and Production, based in Indiana, Pa., stopped by to tell him that the company had purchased the 1921 lease and planned to drill two wells on his property.

“He sat right there,” Greenwood said, pointing to a chair at his kitchen table. “His exact words were ‘There’s no use fighting us. Dominion has more money than you. You’ll lose.’ ”

Within a few months of drilling, a spring on his property ran dry, and his well produced brown water filled with manganese and iron.

“We were farming for 18 years, and I never had this problem,” Greenwood said.

Between April 2008 and January 2009, 10 calves from his 19-head herd were stillborn, he said.

Greenwood, 63, said he believes that chemicals and other drilling waste seeped through the ground from drilling sites to a pond that his cattle used for water.

In March 2008, the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection ordered the company to find a permanent replacement for Greenwood’s lost water. Now, he waters his herd and draws water for his home from a 2,000-gallon tank the energy company pays to fill each week.

Consol Energy, which bought the lease in March, wrote in an email that the company has drilled a new water well for Greenwood and expects the state will soon approve it as a replacement water supply.

Health concerns
Beth Voyles and her daughter live on a 16-acre farm about 15 miles west of Greenwood’s place, where they raise and sell barrel-racing horses and boxer dogs.

Voyles said fracturing chemicals seeped into the ground and evaporated into the air from a 15-million-gallon wastewater pond that a drilling company carved into a hill just east of her farm.

Range Resources, a company based in Fort Worth, Texas, built the pond in January 2010 to store wastewater from nearby, recently drilled wells. The company reuses the water in new wells.

Voyles, 53, said the air is polluted and nearby drilling caused her well and a spring used by the family to run dry.

The family’s champion barrel horse and prized boxer both died in 2010. She said the horse died after losing more than 100 pounds, and tests showed that the boxer had been poisoned by ethylene glycol.

Voyles said that tests have detected benzene, toluene and arsenic in her blood and urine. She said she suffers from chronic skin rashes and blisters in her nose and mouth. In April, doctors diagnosed cervical cancer in her 23-year-old daughter, Ashley.

Voyles sued the state of Pennsylvania in May, demanding a thorough investigation and that it share information with area residents.

“I want my life back. I want my family’s life back and my daughter’s,” Voyles said.

Range Resources spokesman Matt Pitzarella says the wastewater is treated before it is put in the plastic-lined pond, and only salt remains.

The company and state have found no evidence that links the family’s illnesses and animal deaths to the pond or to drilling, he said.

However, the company drilled a new well for the Voyleses.

“Our perspective is that, if you have a concern, real or perceived, we will do whatever we can to make sure our operations don’t have an impact,” Pitzarella said.

Taken from http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2011/09/25/fracking-future.html a newspaper in Ohio.

One of the main points on OWS is corporations doing whatever they want, turning our lives into living HELL on earth, literally. For all the talk that evangelicals do about evolution and gay marriage, how about poisoning the planet that our Creator gave us? You talk about "bother to work hard for it"? You are probably not talking about a part of OWS, the students that worked hard to earn a degree, and now are stuck with a student loan that they cannot repay, because the job market is not there to support them. They want to "bother to work hard for it" , but they just don't have the "opportunity" which America is so famous for. "Most sought after destination on the planet" ? While still better than a lot of other countries it is far from what it was 15-20 years ago.

Corporations produced by us. We all wanted to participate in the lottery.
Unfortunately the probability of winning is very little. Only Casino always wins.
We as society slowly but surely moving from Republic to fascist state were political and corporate bureaucracy merged and morphed in mafia which is not controlled by anybody.
The wealthy people are not the problem, the bureaucracy is.
Occupy has all rights to protest but they have a wrong target.
We need to break up public corporations and non-profits, reduce the government workforce dramatically and privatize as much as possible.
This will take wealth from the hands of bureaucracy and bring it back into society.
The American way of life was built by entrepreneurs, small businessmen, innovators, and hardworking man.
And as all this people are slowly removed from owning this country the American way of life is slowly disappearing.

loweyecue wrote:I don't know how people can make blind pronouncements like the rich people are not the problem and the government is.

If you need to come up with one core problem it's insatiable corporate greed the likes of which has never been witnessed before. All the free market talk is very amusing but like the rest of the garbage written by Ayn Rand it's pure fiction. But if you look at what's actually happening mega corps and cartels are basically killing small businesses and the misguided small business owners want to dismantle Govt. one new Walmart store shuts down half the local economy. The right wing never explains how small govt will make Walmart less greedy.

Without govt protection the mega corps and cartels will dictate terms on everything. People want govt out of their lives but are ok with an insurance company telling them pregnancy is a pre-existing condition? With. Govt we the people at least have some say in the policies that govern us. When that power goes over to the corporations what incentive do they have to make any decision that benefits anyone but themselves?

If you are a small biz owner voting for Republicans to dismantle Govt are you really sure you want a $6/ hr job in Walmart once they destroy your business and spits you out as another cash flow statistic to be herded through debt based slavery? Oh wait it will pay $2/hr because you want minimum wage abolished as well.

If you dismantle govt who will dismantle the cartels and Walmart?

the government has the power to change a lot of our problems overnight, but they won't because they get as much benefit as "big business" does. The problem isn't big business and the problem isn't big government. The problem is the alliance between the two. Too much power in anyone's hands has always turned out poorly. Right now the rich in business are getting what they want from the rich in government adn we all pay the price. Many complain about the fact that no one has paid the price with jail time for what happened with the banks. But who is in charge of enforcing the laws???? Govt. Ask yourself why nothing has ever happened

Bippity10 wrote:

loweyecue wrote:I don't know how people can make blind pronouncements like the rich people are not the problem and the government is.

If you need to come up with one core problem it's insatiable corporate greed the likes of which has never been witnessed before. All the free market talk is very amusing but like the rest of the garbage written by Ayn Rand it's pure fiction. But if you look at what's actually happening mega corps and cartels are basically killing small businesses and the misguided small business owners want to dismantle Govt. one new Walmart store shuts down half the local economy. The right wing never explains how small govt will make Walmart less greedy.

Without govt protection the mega corps and cartels will dictate terms on everything. People want govt out of their lives but are ok with an insurance company telling them pregnancy is a pre-existing condition? With. Govt we the people at least have some say in the policies that govern us. When that power goes over to the corporations what incentive do they have to make any decision that benefits anyone but themselves?

If you are a small biz owner voting for Republicans to dismantle Govt are you really sure you want a $6/ hr job in Walmart once they destroy your business and spits you out as another cash flow statistic to be herded through debt based slavery? Oh wait it will pay $2/hr because you want minimum wage abolished as well.

If you dismantle govt who will dismantle the cartels and Walmart?

the government has the power to change a lot of our problems overnight, but they won't because they get as much benefit as "big business" does. The problem isn't big business and the problem isn't big government. The problem is the alliance between the two. Too much power in anyone's hands has always turned out poorly. Right now the rich in business are getting what they want from the rich in government adn we all pay the price. Many complain about the fact that no one has paid the price with jail time for what happened with the banks. But who is in charge of enforcing the laws???? Govt. Ask yourself why nothing has ever happened

Thanks for posting this made me do something I am not good at, made me think. :)
I don't disagree with the premise but I do view the level of guilt and the core issues differently. Govt may be acting as enablers in some cases but the core responsibility lies with those who are driving this process. If a dog attacks you is the dog more guilty or the owner? In most cases the dog pays the price but it doesn't fix anything at all.

Having said that, I have always maintained the banking cartel is launching an all out power grab through their wholly owned subsidiary, the GOP. I don't give Dems a pass on being corporate sponsored but again it seems to be different in the way the symptoms of the same disease has manifest themselves on the two parties.

My response above was basically in support of occupy wall street-ers and hoping to see big business (which I consider to be resident evil) get defanged and declawed.

And to answer your question, something did happen long ago - Glass Stegall was enacted, regulatory bodies were put in place. Now the former is history, the latter are corrupt and simarly paid for by big businesses. People did go to jail after Enron, I don't think it will keep anyone from doing it again. Weak punitive measures after the damage have been done have no effect. A company going bankrupt may satisfy free market utopia, but the permanent damage that does to thousands of lives before that remains unaccounted for. Prevention is almost always better than the cure, so yes we need regulation to be enforced. What we don't need is further deregulation which seems to be part of the right wing mantra as well.

Written on iPhone, apologize for any incorrectly transposed words, will try to clean it up later.

loweyecue wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

loweyecue wrote:I don't know how people can make blind pronouncements like the rich people are not the problem and the government is.

If you need to come up with one core problem it's insatiable corporate greed the likes of which has never been witnessed before. All the free market talk is very amusing but like the rest of the garbage written by Ayn Rand it's pure fiction. But if you look at what's actually happening mega corps and cartels are basically killing small businesses and the misguided small business owners want to dismantle Govt. one new Walmart store shuts down half the local economy. The right wing never explains how small govt will make Walmart less greedy.

Without govt protection the mega corps and cartels will dictate terms on everything. People want govt out of their lives but are ok with an insurance company telling them pregnancy is a pre-existing condition? With. Govt we the people at least have some say in the policies that govern us. When that power goes over to the corporations what incentive do they have to make any decision that benefits anyone but themselves?

If you are a small biz owner voting for Republicans to dismantle Govt are you really sure you want a $6/ hr job in Walmart once they destroy your business and spits you out as another cash flow statistic to be herded through debt based slavery? Oh wait it will pay $2/hr because you want minimum wage abolished as well.

If you dismantle govt who will dismantle the cartels and Walmart?

the government has the power to change a lot of our problems overnight, but they won't because they get as much benefit as "big business" does. The problem isn't big business and the problem isn't big government. The problem is the alliance between the two. Too much power in anyone's hands has always turned out poorly. Right now the rich in business are getting what they want from the rich in government adn we all pay the price. Many complain about the fact that no one has paid the price with jail time for what happened with the banks. But who is in charge of enforcing the laws???? Govt. Ask yourself why nothing has ever happened

Thanks for posting this made me do something I am not good at, made me think. :)
I don't disagree with the premise but I do view the level of guilt and the core issues differently. Govt may be acting as enablers in some cases but the core responsibility lies with those who are driving this process. If a dog attacks you is the dog more guilty or the owner? In most cases the dog pays the price but it doesn't fix anything at all.

Having said that, I have always maintained the banking cartel is launching an all out power grab through their wholly owned subsidiary, the GOP. I don't give Dems a pass on being corporate sponsored but again it seems to be different in the way the symptoms of the same disease has manifest themselves on the two parties.

My response above was basically in support of occupy wall street-ers and hoping to see big business (which I consider to be resident evil) get defanged and declawed.

And to answer your question, something did happen long ago - Glass Stegall was enacted, regulatory bodies were put in place. Now the former is history, the latter are corrupt and simarly paid for by big businesses. People did go to jail after Enron, I don't think it will keep anyone from doing it again. Weak punitive measures after the damage have been done have no effect. A company going bankrupt may satisfy free market utopia, but the permanent damage that does to thousands of lives before that remains unaccounted for. Prevention is almost always better than the cure, so yes we need regulation to be enforced. What we don't need is further deregulation which seems to be part of the right wing mantra as well.

Written on iPhone, apologize for any incorrectly transposed words, will try to clean it up later.

You are messing up private business owners together with public corporations and government controlled enterprises and these are completely different animals.
There was the same situation in Germany when Hitler came to power and private businesses were transformed into government owned corporations.
This ends up in biggest mess in the history of mankind and destruction of Germany as a state.
Both Reps and Dems are completely corrupt and it is comical to expect either of them to change the destructive path of US society.
Country already went through this in 70th and people prevail. We need to do this again. And if it will take riots and depression to make it lets be it.
We will be better off later. Or it will be no later.

loweyecue wrote:

arkrud wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

loweyecue wrote:I don't know how people can make blind pronouncements like the rich people are not the problem and the government is.

If you need to come up with one core problem it's insatiable corporate greed the likes of which has never been witnessed before. All the free market talk is very amusing but like the rest of the garbage written by Ayn Rand it's pure fiction. But if you look at what's actually happening mega corps and cartels are basically killing small businesses and the misguided small business owners want to dismantle Govt. one new Walmart store shuts down half the local economy. The right wing never explains how small govt will make Walmart less greedy.

Without govt protection the mega corps and cartels will dictate terms on everything. People want govt out of their lives but are ok with an insurance company telling them pregnancy is a pre-existing condition? With. Govt we the people at least have some say in the policies that govern us. When that power goes over to the corporations what incentive do they have to make any decision that benefits anyone but themselves?

If you are a small biz owner voting for Republicans to dismantle Govt are you really sure you want a $6/ hr job in Walmart once they destroy your business and spits you out as another cash flow statistic to be herded through debt based slavery? Oh wait it will pay $2/hr because you want minimum wage abolished as well.

If you dismantle govt who will dismantle the cartels and Walmart?

the government has the power to change a lot of our problems overnight, but they won't because they get as much benefit as "big business" does. The problem isn't big business and the problem isn't big government. The problem is the alliance between the two. Too much power in anyone's hands has always turned out poorly. Right now the rich in business are getting what they want from the rich in government adn we all pay the price. Many complain about the fact that no one has paid the price with jail time for what happened with the banks. But who is in charge of enforcing the laws???? Govt. Ask yourself why nothing has ever happened

Thanks for posting this made me do something I am not good at, made me think. :)
I don't disagree with the premise but I do view the level of guilt and the core issues differently. Govt may be acting as enablers in some cases but the core responsibility lies with those who are driving this process. If a dog attacks you is the dog more guilty or the owner? In most cases the dog pays the price but it doesn't fix anything at all.

Having said that, I have always maintained the banking cartel is launching an all out power grab through their wholly owned subsidiary, the GOP. I don't give Dems a pass on being corporate sponsored but again it seems to be different in the way the symptoms of the same disease has manifest themselves on the two parties.

My response above was basically in support of occupy wall street-ers and hoping to see big business (which I consider to be resident evil) get defanged and declawed.

And to answer your question, something did happen long ago - Glass Stegall was enacted, regulatory bodies were put in place. Now the former is history, the latter are corrupt and simarly paid for by big businesses. People did go to jail after Enron, I don't think it will keep anyone from doing it again. Weak punitive measures after the damage have been done have no effect. A company going bankrupt may satisfy free market utopia, but the permanent damage that does to thousands of lives before that remains unaccounted for. Prevention is almost always better than the cure, so yes we need regulation to be enforced. What we don't need is further deregulation which seems to be part of the right wing mantra as well.

Written on iPhone, apologize for any incorrectly transposed words, will try to clean it up later.

You are messing up private business owners together with public corporations and government controlled enterprises and these are completely different animals.
There was the same situation in Germany when Hitler came to power and private businesses were transformed into government owned corporations.
This ends up in biggest mess in the history of mankind and destruction of Germany as a state.
Both Reps and Dems are completely corrupt and it is comical to expect either of them to change the destructive path of US society.
Country already went through this in 70th and people prevail. We need to do this again. And if it will take riots and depression to make it lets be it.
We will be better off later. Or it will be no later.

Sorry I have no idea what you mean about mixing up pvt business with anything. I am placing the guilt for the current mess squarely on large privately owned mega businesses and cartels. I didnt make any references to govt owned organizations. I agreed with Bippity that Govt aka politicians act as enablers for these big businesses to end the rules on their favor. Corruption aside Republicans have the stated agenda of doing everything in their power to make it even easier for big businesses to continue doing this. That at least is not subject to discussion because they don't even bother to deny it.

I am talking about privately own companies which have an owner(s) who cares about profits versus public companies, non-profits and government own companies which are run by corporate and government bureaucrats. I do not mind people making money if this grows the wealth of the society, created working places and taxes.
Bureaucrats destroy wealth. They are just blood suckers and should be exterminated ASAP.