eViL wrote:trading for players you can sign with cap space is the greatest plan of all </sarcasm>

eViL wrote:trading for players you can sign with cap space is the greatest plan of all </sarcasm>

Well it leaves no room for doubt. You get the 2nd piece to the puzzle and continue on from there. I really think many of us underestimate the impact of adding a 2nd Elite player to this team. A guy who can go off for 30, 40, or 50 on any given night and consistently gives you a focal point for your offense for the full 48 minutes is worth it. Now when Amar'e sits, we still have a focal point on offense and that means less meandering on offense, like we see the team do when Amar'e goes to the bench. Trust me it's gonna make a huge difference even right now.

Then we'll be able to add on to the team over the next 5 years. It's much easier to do when you already have the stars in place.

TMS wrote:

eViL wrote:trading for players you can sign with cap space is the greatest plan of all </sarcasm>

do u know it's a guarantee that we'll get Melo in free agency?

none of us have any guarantees of anything, but that doesn't stop people from fearing franchise tags and other hypothetical scenarios. until you get him, there are no guarantees. all i can guarantee is that if he knows what's good, he will wait and sign in free agency allowing his new team (that's us) to upgrade by using the assets they saved by not having to trade for him. and we'll be in a better position as a team. that's 100% indisputable.

nixluva wrote:

eViL wrote:trading for players you can sign with cap space is the greatest plan of all </sarcasm>

Well it leaves no room for doubt. You get the 2nd piece to the puzzle and continue on from there. I really think many of us underestimate the impact of adding a 2nd Elite player to this team. A guy who can go off for 30, 40, or 50 on any given night and consistently gives you a focal point for your offense for the full 48 minutes is worth it. Now when Amar'e sits, we still have a focal point on offense and that means less meandering on offense, like we see the team do when Amar'e goes to the bench. Trust me it's gonna make a huge difference even right now.

Then we'll be able to add on to the team over the next 5 years. It's much easier to do when you already have the stars in place.

but we'll always be short one star if we have to trade to get melo. we will have to compete with miami every step of the way here. they will be trying to get those role players too. and with both teams capped out, and one team having 3 big stars vs. our team with only 2 big stars -- they will be the the desired destination for great role players who take pay cuts.

eViL wrote:

TMS wrote:

eViL wrote:trading for players you can sign with cap space is the greatest plan of all </sarcasm>

do u know it's a guarantee that we'll get Melo in free agency?

none of us have any guarantees of anything, but that doesn't stop people from fearing franchise tags and other hypothetical scenarios. until you get him, there are no guarantees. all i can guarantee is that if he knows what's good, he will wait and sign in free agency allowing his new team (that's us) to upgrade by using the assets they saved by not having to trade for him. and we'll be in a better position as a team. that's 100% indisputable.

all i know is DW is engaging the Nuggets in trade talks, he has access to information that you or i don't, that tells me he is just as concerned about fearing franchise tags & other hypothetical scenarios as anyone of us are otherwise he'd have just told Denver he's not dealing with them from the very beginning... there are no undisputable outcomes to this Melo drama, but what i do know is if we lose out on him because we're afraid to make a trade like this it will be a huge mistake for this franchise.

TMS wrote:

OldFan wrote:

TMS wrote:i pretty much agree w/this guy's article:

http://newyork.sbnation.com/2011/2/15/1995384/the-price-isnt-too-high-make-the-trade-knicks

The Price Isn't Too High - Make the Trade, Knicks

By Joe Caporoso - Contributor

The Knicks need to start building their own big three, right now

Feb 15, 2011 - As SB Nation has been covering today, the New York Knicks have the ability to obtain Carmelo Anthony for Raymond Felton, Danillo Gallinari, another starter (likely Wilson Chandler), Eddy Curry's expiring contract (is that his full name now?), and a first round pick in return for Anthony and Chauncey Billups.

The initial reaction of many has been that the price is too steep and the Knicks should walk away from the offer. However, the more you watch this team hover around .500 and the more you realize they are only four games away from not even being a playoff team in the East, the more you need to get on board with this deal.

Yes, Raymond Felton got off to a very strong start but there is no arguing his play has declined in the previous the month, which has concincided with the Knicks being a 5-10 team in that period. Gallinari is young and has plenty of potential but believe it not, you have to give up something to get somebody like Carmelo Anthony on your team. Wilson Chandler would likely be the third piece in the deal and that is fine because you have to part with his fragile self before you let Landry Fields go anywhere.

The approach of waiting until free agency is starting to seem like a crap-shoot, with Anthony now entertaining the thought of signing an extension in Denver. There is also a chance another team, Chicago, Dallas, or Houston jumps in at the last hour before the trade deadline and spends the next few months getting Anthony to pen a long term deal.

If you are the Knicks, you take Billups for the rest of the season, put Anthony with Amare Stoudemaire, Landry Fields, and your collection of bench players (Shawne Williams, Bill Walker, Ronny Turiaf, Toney Douglas) and hope to make some noise in the Eastern Conference playoffs. The younger players will gain some worthy experience, while Anthony and Stoudemaire can get used to playing together in a big spot. After the season, you buyout Billups for 4 million dollars instead of paying his ridiculous 2011 salary and play the waiting game for Chris Paul or Deron Williams who should be counting the seconds until they could join Anthony and Stoudemaire.

If this team ever wants to win a title in a conference shared with the Celtics, Heat, Magic, and Bulls...it is going to take more than what they have now, way more. Raymond Felton is a nice player, but long term it is going to take a big three of Stoudemaire, Anthony, and Paul or Williams supported by an ideal role player like Fields and a young bench that hopefully develops to knock off any of those powers.

So you make this trade and you're still a superstar and a defense away from being a contender. Sound like a plan.

as opposed to your plan which is to develop Gallo & Wilson into the superstars we need to take us to the title?

I think people are ignoring the last part.. a young bench that "hopefully" develops.. haha so we are banking on williams, walker, turiaf and douglas becomming a championship bench, but can't bank on chandler and gallo becomming allstar talents... and they are closer to allstar level than those other guys are to championship bench ability..

tkf wrote:

TMS wrote:

OldFan wrote:

TMS wrote:i pretty much agree w/this guy's article:

http://newyork.sbnation.com/2011/2/15/1995384/the-price-isnt-too-high-make-the-trade-knicks

The Price Isn't Too High - Make the Trade, Knicks

By Joe Caporoso - Contributor

The Knicks need to start building their own big three, right now

Feb 15, 2011 - As SB Nation has been covering today, the New York Knicks have the ability to obtain Carmelo Anthony for Raymond Felton, Danillo Gallinari, another starter (likely Wilson Chandler), Eddy Curry's expiring contract (is that his full name now?), and a first round pick in return for Anthony and Chauncey Billups.

The initial reaction of many has been that the price is too steep and the Knicks should walk away from the offer. However, the more you watch this team hover around .500 and the more you realize they are only four games away from not even being a playoff team in the East, the more you need to get on board with this deal.

Yes, Raymond Felton got off to a very strong start but there is no arguing his play has declined in the previous the month, which has concincided with the Knicks being a 5-10 team in that period. Gallinari is young and has plenty of potential but believe it not, you have to give up something to get somebody like Carmelo Anthony on your team. Wilson Chandler would likely be the third piece in the deal and that is fine because you have to part with his fragile self before you let Landry Fields go anywhere.

The approach of waiting until free agency is starting to seem like a crap-shoot, with Anthony now entertaining the thought of signing an extension in Denver. There is also a chance another team, Chicago, Dallas, or Houston jumps in at the last hour before the trade deadline and spends the next few months getting Anthony to pen a long term deal.

If you are the Knicks, you take Billups for the rest of the season, put Anthony with Amare Stoudemaire, Landry Fields, and your collection of bench players (Shawne Williams, Bill Walker, Ronny Turiaf, Toney Douglas) and hope to make some noise in the Eastern Conference playoffs. The younger players will gain some worthy experience, while Anthony and Stoudemaire can get used to playing together in a big spot. After the season, you buyout Billups for 4 million dollars instead of paying his ridiculous 2011 salary and play the waiting game for Chris Paul or Deron Williams who should be counting the seconds until they could join Anthony and Stoudemaire.

If this team ever wants to win a title in a conference shared with the Celtics, Heat, Magic, and Bulls...it is going to take more than what they have now, way more. Raymond Felton is a nice player, but long term it is going to take a big three of Stoudemaire, Anthony, and Paul or Williams supported by an ideal role player like Fields and a young bench that hopefully develops to knock off any of those powers.

So you make this trade and you're still a superstar and a defense away from being a contender. Sound like a plan.

as opposed to your plan which is to develop Gallo & Wilson into the superstars we need to take us to the title?

I think people are ignoring the last part.. a young bench that "hopefully" develops.. haha so we are banking on williams, walker, turiaf and douglas becomming a championship bench, but can't bank on chandler and gallo becomming allstar talents... and they are closer to allstar level than those other guys are to championship bench ability..

the point of the article was to say you need the stars & have the bench around them to win a title... it didn't put any onus on our bench guys developing into stars themselves... if u don't think guys like Williams, Walker, Turiaf & Douglas can become a championship worthy bench then tell me how guys like Leon Powe, Trevor Ariza, Luke Walton, Eddie House, etc. have championship rings on their finger.

Finestrg wrote:

TMS wrote:i pretty much agree w/this guy's article:

http://newyork.sbnation.com/2011/2/15/1995384/the-price-isnt-too-high-make-the-trade-knicks

The Price Isn't Too High - Make the Trade, Knicks

By Joe Caporoso - Contributor

The Knicks need to start building their own big three, right now

Feb 15, 2011 - As SB Nation has been covering today, the New York Knicks have the ability to obtain Carmelo Anthony for Raymond Felton, Danillo Gallinari, another starter (likely Wilson Chandler), Eddy Curry's expiring contract (is that his full name now?), and a first round pick in return for Anthony and Chauncey Billups.

The initial reaction of many has been that the price is too steep and the Knicks should walk away from the offer. However, the more you watch this team hover around .500 and the more you realize they are only four games away from not even being a playoff team in the East, the more you need to get on board with this deal.

Yes, Raymond Felton got off to a very strong start but there is no arguing his play has declined in the previous the month, which has concincided with the Knicks being a 5-10 team in that period. Gallinari is young and has plenty of potential but believe it not, you have to give up something to get somebody like Carmelo Anthony on your team. Wilson Chandler would likely be the third piece in the deal and that is fine because you have to part with his fragile self before you let Landry Fields go anywhere.

The approach of waiting until free agency is starting to seem like a crap-shoot, with Anthony now entertaining the thought of signing an extension in Denver. There is also a chance another team, Chicago, Dallas, or Houston jumps in at the last hour before the trade deadline and spends the next few months getting Anthony to pen a long term deal.

If you are the Knicks, you take Billups for the rest of the season, put Anthony with Amare Stoudemaire, Landry Fields, and your collection of bench players (Shawne Williams, Bill Walker, Ronny Turiaf, Toney Douglas) and hope to make some noise in the Eastern Conference playoffs. The younger players will gain some worthy experience, while Anthony and Stoudemaire can get used to playing together in a big spot. After the season, you buyout Billups for 4 million dollars instead of paying his ridiculous 2011 salary and play the waiting game for Chris Paul or Deron Williams who should be counting the seconds until they could join Anthony and Stoudemaire.

If this team ever wants to win a title in a conference shared with the Celtics, Heat, Magic, and Bulls...it is going to take more than what they have now, way more. Raymond Felton is a nice player, but long term it is going to take a big three of Stoudemaire, Anthony, and Paul or Williams supported by an ideal role player like Fields and a young bench that hopefully develops to knock off any of those powers.

Me too but the PG situation concerns me a little bit with this scenario as does this guy's plan for next year..Suppose we do this exactly how this guy outlines it: Take on Billups now and then buy him out for $4M in the offseason to avoid playing him the full $14M. Who's our PG next year?? This guy's basically saying scrap the whole year next season and wait for Paul or D-Will..I don't know if I agree with that...If anything, I'd keep Billups next year and just let him expire normally..Why waste an entire season?? To be honest, I would rather exclude Felton from the deal altogether and sweeten the pot another way -- maybe Moz or Moz and a 2014 1st rounder if necessary (assuming we're already either trading Randolph for a 1 or trading him to Minny and the Wolves then redirecting a 1st rounder + Corey Brewer) in lieu of Felton..So we're looking at:

Gallo, Chandler, Curry's expiring, AR for a pick [AR to Minny who agrees to send DEN Brewer + a 1st rounder], Moz OR Moz and our 2014 1st, $3M cash

What'dya think? Think they'd rather have Felton and save about $7M with Billups or could they be convinced to take Moz/Moz + that 2014 1st? I'd rather the later..Hefty price but I think I'd prefer that and we keep Ray...Then again, I'd love to keep AR outta this and actually PLAY HIM NEXT YEAR (AR slides into the Gallinari role where I think he'd better compliment STAT & Melo) but I have no confidence is ever gonna play him, so I guess he's gotta go..I don't even know any more man..

yeah bro i think u just made a good point about holding onto Billups... only problem w/that is it leaves us with zero cap space to target anyone else, so we'll have to hope that Mozgov develops into a viable fulltime starting C option for next season & we can grab a capable backup PG on a minimum contract... that's not an impossible scenario tho... having Billups as a 1.5 year stopgap is more than fine with me, i don't see him as much of a dropoff from Felton at all... if anything i'd trust his poise & experience in the playoffs over Felton, postseason basketball is a totally different animal i think that's when Billups' value becomes even greater.

let wilson go, but keep landry, gallo, mozgov and definitely keep felton.

move some of those guys for a center like anderson varejao after melo is signed. (i'd trade gallo or mozgov plus the #1 pick we can get for AR for anderson varejao)

Felton
Fields
Melo
Amar'e
Varejao

bench: Gallo, Toney, Shawne Williams, Turiaf

why not wait for a full team? that squad can legitimately win it all.

WAIT UNTIL JULY. DOLAN, I'M TALKING TO YOU.

TMS wrote:billups will play better with melo and stat then will felton...yes he is older and slower but a much better leader orchestrator distributor and shooter plus his resume has plenty of playoff exp...might even be a better mentor to finally get through to douglas who loves to shoot and create for himself rather than create for others...

Finestrg wrote:

TMS wrote:i pretty much agree w/this guy's article:

http://newyork.sbnation.com/2011/2/15/1995384/the-price-isnt-too-high-make-the-trade-knicks

The Price Isn't Too High - Make the Trade, Knicks

By Joe Caporoso - Contributor

The Knicks need to start building their own big three, right now

Feb 15, 2011 - As SB Nation has been covering today, the New York Knicks have the ability to obtain Carmelo Anthony for Raymond Felton, Danillo Gallinari, another starter (likely Wilson Chandler), Eddy Curry's expiring contract (is that his full name now?), and a first round pick in return for Anthony and Chauncey Billups.

The initial reaction of many has been that the price is too steep and the Knicks should walk away from the offer. However, the more you watch this team hover around .500 and the more you realize they are only four games away from not even being a playoff team in the East, the more you need to get on board with this deal.

Yes, Raymond Felton got off to a very strong start but there is no arguing his play has declined in the previous the month, which has concincided with the Knicks being a 5-10 team in that period. Gallinari is young and has plenty of potential but believe it not, you have to give up something to get somebody like Carmelo Anthony on your team. Wilson Chandler would likely be the third piece in the deal and that is fine because you have to part with his fragile self before you let Landry Fields go anywhere.

The approach of waiting until free agency is starting to seem like a crap-shoot, with Anthony now entertaining the thought of signing an extension in Denver. There is also a chance another team, Chicago, Dallas, or Houston jumps in at the last hour before the trade deadline and spends the next few months getting Anthony to pen a long term deal.

If you are the Knicks, you take Billups for the rest of the season, put Anthony with Amare Stoudemaire, Landry Fields, and your collection of bench players (Shawne Williams, Bill Walker, Ronny Turiaf, Toney Douglas) and hope to make some noise in the Eastern Conference playoffs. The younger players will gain some worthy experience, while Anthony and Stoudemaire can get used to playing together in a big spot. After the season, you buyout Billups for 4 million dollars instead of paying his ridiculous 2011 salary and play the waiting game for Chris Paul or Deron Williams who should be counting the seconds until they could join Anthony and Stoudemaire.

If this team ever wants to win a title in a conference shared with the Celtics, Heat, Magic, and Bulls...it is going to take more than what they have now, way more. Raymond Felton is a nice player, but long term it is going to take a big three of Stoudemaire, Anthony, and Paul or Williams supported by an ideal role player like Fields and a young bench that hopefully develops to knock off any of those powers.

Me too but the PG situation concerns me a little bit with this scenario as does this guy's plan for next year..Suppose we do this exactly how this guy outlines it: Take on Billups now and then buy him out for $4M in the offseason to avoid playing him the full $14M. Who's our PG next year?? This guy's basically saying scrap the whole year next season and wait for Paul or D-Will..I don't know if I agree with that...If anything, I'd keep Billups next year and just let him expire normally..Why waste an entire season?? To be honest, I would rather exclude Felton from the deal altogether and sweeten the pot another way -- maybe Moz or Moz and a 2014 1st rounder if necessary (assuming we're already either trading Randolph for a 1 or trading him to Minny and the Wolves then redirecting a 1st rounder + Corey Brewer) in lieu of Felton..So we're looking at:

Gallo, Chandler, Curry's expiring, AR for a pick [AR to Minny who agrees to send DEN Brewer + a 1st rounder], Moz OR Moz and our 2014 1st, $3M cash

What'dya think? Think they'd rather have Felton and save about $7M with Billups or could they be convinced to take Moz/Moz + that 2014 1st? I'd rather the later..Hefty price but I think I'd prefer that and we keep Ray...Then again, I'd love to keep AR outta this and actually PLAY HIM NEXT YEAR (AR slides into the Gallinari role where I think he'd better compliment STAT & Melo) but I have no confidence is ever gonna play him, so I guess he's gotta go..I don't even know any more man..

yeah bro i think u just made a good point about holding onto Billups... only problem w/that is it leaves us with zero cap space to target anyone else, so we'll have to hope that Mozgov develops into a viable fulltime starting C option for next season & we can grab a capable backup PG on a minimum contract... that's not an impossible scenario tho... having Billups as a 1.5 year stopgap is more than fine with me, i don't see him as much of a dropoff from Felton at all... if anything i'd trust his poise & experience in the playoffs over Felton, postseason basketball is a totally different animal i think that's when Billups' value becomes even greater.