[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

The Melo Contingent's "Told Ya So"
Author Thread
TMS
Posts: 60684
Alba Posts: 617
Joined: 5/11/2004
Member: #674
USA
12/18/2010  11:56 PM
Melo2NYK wrote:
TMS wrote:
GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:
TMS wrote:
GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:- They have a guy like Lebron who can score even when the defense is great. Lebron can only be defended reasonably when his perimeter shot isn't falling but he keeps taking it anyway. His J was on last night and whne his J is on he's unguardable

Is the best solution to get Melo to match a guy like Bron or get someone who can help the Knicks do what the Heat did to us: take away their bread and butter on offense, make it difficult for one of the best offensive teams in the league (The Knicks) to score.

If the plan is to get Melo and then try to just score 130 points a game, it's gonna be fun to watch us try to win like that. Who says it can't be done?

it's too bad there isn't a shut down defensive player like a Ron Artest that you can put up against the other team's top scorer & forget about him out there to be had, because if there's anything our team needs right now, it's that type of player... but right now i don't see all that much upside in adding a role playing C that would likely be finding himself riding pine down the stretch of ballgames in MDA's system... those types of add ons should not be our main priority at this point... of course, it's good to address the bench depth as well, but we should first focus on upgrading the talent in our starting rotation to match up against the elite talent in the NBA.

Ron Artest is a freak. The guy takes genuine joy out of shutting guys down. This thing killed me:

Tonight, the coaches have told him to force [Tyreke] Evans to his left, but the first four times Evans touches the ball, Artest forces him right.

Explain, Ron-Ron?

"Just to see if I can stop them," he says. "I like looking at a guy's face when he realizes that even his best moves aren't going to work on me all night. They look depressed."

This is the funniest thing I've read on an athlete in a loooong time http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=5902468
I would LOVE to have a Ron Artest on the Knicks. Problem is there's only one of him in the NBA in terms of (well..in his Prime) quick enough to stop speedy wings, strong enough to guard post players, and crazy enough to scare people.

Closest guy I can think of is..Stephen Jackson? Still remember what he did to Dirk during that Warriors/Mavs series.

the day we made that dumb Zach Randolph trade, i said our best move would have been to go after Ron Artest... i think he would have brought the defensive intensity this team lacked all throughout those dark years... of course, who knows how much more volatile a mix it would have been to add him to that powderkeg mix... not that we had much to lose at that point since NOT having Artest didn't prevent things from becoming a circus anyway.

would be nice if there were a Bruce Bowen type player out there to be had... someone who could man up on guys like Lebron, Kobe, etc. & at least make life difficult for them... no one's gonna stop those guys obviously but if u can at least make them exert more effort to get off their shots, maybe it takes a little edge off their defensive games on the other end... maybe someone like James Posey would be a nice option to target in that type of role... he hits big shots too as we've all seen... i wanted us to target Matt Barnes in the offseason too, i thought he could fill that type of pain in the arse role player that guys hate to be guarded by... Raja Bell is another guy we should probably look into in that kind of role... Toney Douglas is an able defender but he's too undersized to guard most SG's & SF's.

To be honest, I think we have two players that have shown promise of being the "pain in the arse" you described: Wilson Chandler and Landry Fields. Both players are particularly length and strong for their respective positions, using these advantages to their benefit on defense. I love the idea of continuing to start Fields while bringing in Wilson off the bench as our 3/4 for either Melo or Amar'e.

i can easily see Fields developing into a Shane Battier type defender too... Wilson i'm not so sure he's got it in him to be a shutdown guy... i don't see the motor in him that i see in Landry... u need a really good motor if u wanna be that kind of defensive player... Wilson has all the athleticism & strength to be a solid on ball & low post defender, but he's not a guy i often see hustling his butt after loose balls, diving on the floor, drawing charges, etc.

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
AUTOADVERT
FistOfOakley
Posts: 21079
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 2/18/2010
Member: #3075

12/19/2010  2:10 AM
what makes wilson great on offense makes him horrible on defense.

i really think it's this constant switching that we do. we've gotten beat a number of times with bigs rolling to the basket uncontested.

Nalod
Posts: 71185
Alba Posts: 155
Joined: 12/24/2003
Member: #508
USA
12/19/2010  9:07 AM
Melo2NYK wrote:
Nalod wrote:Trio of Duncan, Parker and Obi won Ginobli.

Neither is super "athletic".

What is the glue of that team? Duncan passes out. Now does Amare.

Parker scores in the paint and goes to rim as per most Eurostyle Points. Felton is getting real good at this.

Ginobli looks good in Highlights but does not put up huge numbers. Tough defender, tough handle, goes to the rim and is super clutch.

He didin't come to the nba until his he was like 27. Think he was as good as at age 22 in the NBA? He was not in the NBA.

Gallo at 22, Shy Wilson is 23. First season they have been asked to be prime time. I think they are responding very well.

If Melo don't come here don't blame Donnie cuz that extension is nuts and the price to pay what Nets are offering is nuts.

Knicks have to rebuild and it won't be that easy with limited resources. We don't "WIN NOW" as many think would happen.

YOU WIN NOW if he joins as free agent. Not if you have to find another Landry Fields and others who pass and play nice with others.

Chemistry matters!

Melo goes to Jersey cuz he wants the extension more than fitting in on an emeging team

If that were true, don't you think Melo would've signed the damn extension with the Nuggets already who have a better supporting cast than the Nets?

Chemistry matters but so does talent. And on another note, who is to say that a Knick team with Melo on it wouldn't develop chemistry? More importantly, there is nothing about Gallo's or Wilson's game to suggest that they'll ever become the player Melo has been, is and will continue to be. At 26 years old, the guy has a great deal of excellent basketball to play.

P.S., not sure what game you have been watching both Parker and Ginobli are and have been one of the most athletic backcourts in the league. Parker is a blurr and most guys still have a hard time accounting for Ginobli's rapid change of direction.


Not until he has exhausted very option. Nets not his first choice.

He won't pass on the money. Donnie won't over pay.

misterearl
Posts: 38786
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/16/2004
Member: #799
USA
12/20/2010  10:57 AM
Heat Offers Blueprint for Disrupting the Knicks’ Offense

By ROB MAHONEY

A demoralizing loss to the Heat told a painful truth about the Knicks’ place in the Eastern Conference hierarchy, but of greater significance was a revelation of the team’s offensive limitations. Even the league’s best offenses can be countered, and Miami, a team evidently schooled in the machinations of Mike D’Antoni’s offense, unveiled something of a blueprint for stopping the Knicks.

Not every team can pull off Miami’s approach. Dwyane Wade and LeBron James are two talented defenders capable of pressuring ball-handlers in way most wings cannot. Still, the principles of the Heat defense can be applied almost universally by Knicks opponents if they so choose, even if the result isn’t quite as successful.

The philosophy behind the defense is simple: play the numbers. Amar’e Stoudemire is a monster on offense (and particularly in the pick-and-roll), so Miami threw double and triple teams at him as often as possible. The timing of the pressure was fairly random; sometimes extra defenders would come on the dribble, and sometimes they would wait until Stoudemire had found his way to the rim. Regardless, the Heat dedicated more than just one player to the task of guarding Stoudemire, fully aware of what that would do to the Knicks’ offense.

Putting a lot of defensive pressure on Stoudemire creates two basic problems for the Knicks: it takes away their most reliable half-court offensive weapon (the Felton-Stoudemire pick-and-roll) and it forces Stoudemire to make smart, crisp passes out of double teams, something he has never seemed comfortable doing.

Friday night’s game may very well have been lost in the pick-and-roll. The Knicks execute the 1-5 pick-and-roll as well as just about any team in the N.B.A., which is a testament to Stoudemire’s hands, athleticism and finishing ability. According to Synergy Sports Technology, the Knicks average 1.27 points per possession on plays going through the roll man, a truly exemplary mark. Against the Heat, however, the Knicks were able to muster only a pitiful 0.83 points per possession in such situations. There’s a gulf between those two levels of efficiency, and things were similarly dismal for ball-handlers in the Knicks’ pick-and-roll.

In Phoenix, Stoudemire had it easy. If defenses collapsed on him, all he had to do was kick the ball out to the perimeter, and contrary to popular belief, the end result of such a sequence wasn’t always a spot-up 3-pointer. More commonly, the Suns would reset the play through Steve Nash, who then had the option of taking a shot himself or threading a perfect pass to a well-positioned scorer.

As excellently as Raymond Felton has played this season, he’s no Nash. Though the ball may eventually find its way back to Felton after the initial action is halted, he doesn’t have the vision that made Nash so brilliant in capitalizing on broken plays. So Felton drives, or runs another pick-and-roll, or pulls up for a jumper, but without the potential for consistently efficient offense.

To make matters worse, Stoudemire isn’t the most willing or accurate passer. He tends to put blinders on when within attack range, and the times he does give up the ball are typically possession-saving maneuvers; he kicks out to perimeter players often enough, but those passes aren’t always well-placed as a result of the defensive pressure. Stoudemire can have a beauty of an assist every now and again, but he’s an interior scorer, not a playmaker. It should surprise no one that his passes force shooters to compromise their footing, and take them out of their sweet spots.

That may not sound all that important, but comfort level is crucial for shooters, even in spot-up situations. Hitting a perimeter shooter in the hands with a pass results in a more fluid shooting motion with more time and space to fire. In some cases, those things alone can be the difference between a make and a miss. Stoudemire’s passing out of double and triple teams doesn’t totally account for the Knicks’ subpar 33.3 percent shooting from deep Friday night, but it’s a decent start. Throw in Miami’s excellent group of close-out wings, and it’s not exactly surprising that the Knicks had trouble from beyond the arc.

Against the Knicks, opposing coaches would be wise to take their chances with the Knicks’ shooters. That’s not to say that the shooting abilities of those on the roster are inferior. Rather, the avenues to those shooters can be limited by putting heavy pressure on Stoudemire. All things go through Stoudemire and Felton, and while that offensive approach is effective against a majority of defenses, well-timed swarms can effectively disrupt the threat of both Stoudemire’s interior offense and the Knicks’ weak side pick-and-roll alternatives.

Rob Mahoney is an obsessive student of professional basketball, dedicated to the minutiae, the overarching themes and everything in between. You can read more of his work at TheTwoManGame.com, HardwoodParoxysm.com and ProBasketballTalk.com.

once a knick always a knick
knickstorrents
Posts: 21121
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/23/2010
Member: #3050
Hong Kong
12/20/2010  11:01 AM
misterearl wrote:Heat Offers Blueprint for Disrupting the Knicks’ Offense

By ROB MAHONEY

A demoralizing loss to the Heat told a painful truth about the Knicks’ place in the Eastern Conference hierarchy, but of greater significance was a revelation of the team’s offensive limitations. Even the league’s best offenses can be countered, and Miami, a team evidently schooled in the machinations of Mike D’Antoni’s offense, unveiled something of a blueprint for stopping the Knicks.

Not every team can pull off Miami’s approach. Dwyane Wade and LeBron James are two talented defenders capable of pressuring ball-handlers in way most wings cannot. Still, the principles of the Heat defense can be applied almost universally by Knicks opponents if they so choose, even if the result isn’t quite as successful.

The philosophy behind the defense is simple: play the numbers. Amar’e Stoudemire is a monster on offense (and particularly in the pick-and-roll), so Miami threw double and triple teams at him as often as possible. The timing of the pressure was fairly random; sometimes extra defenders would come on the dribble, and sometimes they would wait until Stoudemire had found his way to the rim. Regardless, the Heat dedicated more than just one player to the task of guarding Stoudemire, fully aware of what that would do to the Knicks’ offense.

Putting a lot of defensive pressure on Stoudemire creates two basic problems for the Knicks: it takes away their most reliable half-court offensive weapon (the Felton-Stoudemire pick-and-roll) and it forces Stoudemire to make smart, crisp passes out of double teams, something he has never seemed comfortable doing.

Friday night’s game may very well have been lost in the pick-and-roll. The Knicks execute the 1-5 pick-and-roll as well as just about any team in the N.B.A., which is a testament to Stoudemire’s hands, athleticism and finishing ability. According to Synergy Sports Technology, the Knicks average 1.27 points per possession on plays going through the roll man, a truly exemplary mark. Against the Heat, however, the Knicks were able to muster only a pitiful 0.83 points per possession in such situations. There’s a gulf between those two levels of efficiency, and things were similarly dismal for ball-handlers in the Knicks’ pick-and-roll.

In Phoenix, Stoudemire had it easy. If defenses collapsed on him, all he had to do was kick the ball out to the perimeter, and contrary to popular belief, the end result of such a sequence wasn’t always a spot-up 3-pointer. More commonly, the Suns would reset the play through Steve Nash, who then had the option of taking a shot himself or threading a perfect pass to a well-positioned scorer.

As excellently as Raymond Felton has played this season, he’s no Nash. Though the ball may eventually find its way back to Felton after the initial action is halted, he doesn’t have the vision that made Nash so brilliant in capitalizing on broken plays. So Felton drives, or runs another pick-and-roll, or pulls up for a jumper, but without the potential for consistently efficient offense.

To make matters worse, Stoudemire isn’t the most willing or accurate passer. He tends to put blinders on when within attack range, and the times he does give up the ball are typically possession-saving maneuvers; he kicks out to perimeter players often enough, but those passes aren’t always well-placed as a result of the defensive pressure. Stoudemire can have a beauty of an assist every now and again, but he’s an interior scorer, not a playmaker. It should surprise no one that his passes force shooters to compromise their footing, and take them out of their sweet spots.

That may not sound all that important, but comfort level is crucial for shooters, even in spot-up situations. Hitting a perimeter shooter in the hands with a pass results in a more fluid shooting motion with more time and space to fire. In some cases, those things alone can be the difference between a make and a miss. Stoudemire’s passing out of double and triple teams doesn’t totally account for the Knicks’ subpar 33.3 percent shooting from deep Friday night, but it’s a decent start. Throw in Miami’s excellent group of close-out wings, and it’s not exactly surprising that the Knicks had trouble from beyond the arc.

Against the Knicks, opposing coaches would be wise to take their chances with the Knicks’ shooters. That’s not to say that the shooting abilities of those on the roster are inferior. Rather, the avenues to those shooters can be limited by putting heavy pressure on Stoudemire. All things go through Stoudemire and Felton, and while that offensive approach is effective against a majority of defenses, well-timed swarms can effectively disrupt the threat of both Stoudemire’s interior offense and the Knicks’ weak side pick-and-roll alternatives.

Rob Mahoney is an obsessive student of professional basketball, dedicated to the minutiae, the overarching themes and everything in between. You can read more of his work at TheTwoManGame.com, HardwoodParoxysm.com and ProBasketballTalk.com.

I read that article... I didn't really agree with his conclusions. Both Miami and Cleveland were able to disrupt our offense because they had excellent man on man defenders on Amare. Both Joel Anthony and Anderson Varejao were quick enough and strong enough to guard him man on man, without need for a double team. The double teams came for sure, but other teams tried to double and it didn't work as well because Amare is so quick he can usually score as the double comes. With Joel Anthony and Anderson Varejao, he could not simply score when the double came because he couldn't beat his man, he needed to pass.

Rose is not the answer.
BlueSeats
Posts: 27272
Alba Posts: 41
Joined: 11/6/2005
Member: #1024

12/20/2010  11:10 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/20/2010  11:10 AM
Imagine if Amare was a second option.
BRIGGS
Posts: 53275
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 7/30/2002
Member: #303
12/20/2010  11:48 AM
Also--fck Melo if he doesn't have the patience to wait until FA.


I fully believe that D Walsk will build an NBA championship team with melo OR WITHOUT him. Im confident--we haev the blueprint. If Randolph Mosgov and Azubuke were either healthy or performed as expected--wed already be mentioned as a championship contender right now--and that was not expected.
We have TREMENDOUS leverage with the cap space---no way we NEEd CA--we needa DEEP multi diversified team with size speed and skill. That is a LOT of size that hasnt worked--probably wont work but he had it right.

RIP Crushalot😞
GustavBahler
Posts: 42828
Alba Posts: 15
Joined: 7/12/2010
Member: #3186

12/20/2010  12:01 PM
BRIGGS wrote:Also--fck Melo if he doesn't have the patience to wait until FA.


I fully believe that D Walsk will build an NBA championship team with melo OR WITHOUT him. Im confident--we haev the blueprint. If Randolph Mosgov and Azubuke were either healthy or performed as expected--wed already be mentioned as a championship contender right now--and that was not expected.
We have TREMENDOUS leverage with the cap space---no way we NEEd CA--we needa DEEP multi diversified team with size speed and skill. That is a LOT of size that hasnt worked--probably wont work but he had it right.

I agree with the first sentiment but as far as blaming AR, Moz, and Buike for not contending, that isn't realistic. A rookie, a project, and a seriously injured player, shouldn't be blamed for not instantly becoming part of one of the best bench's in the league their first year with the team. The Knicks already looks better than they have in a decade, I can wait a season to see if Moz and AR pan out. If they do we will have the makings of a bench that you want on a contender. Not much you can get for them at this point anyway.

BRIGGS
Posts: 53275
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 7/30/2002
Member: #303
12/20/2010  2:02 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Also--fck Melo if he doesn't have the patience to wait until FA.


I fully believe that D Walsk will build an NBA championship team with melo OR WITHOUT him. Im confident--we haev the blueprint. If Randolph Mosgov and Azubuke were either healthy or performed as expected--wed already be mentioned as a championship contender right now--and that was not expected.
We have TREMENDOUS leverage with the cap space---no way we NEEd CA--we needa DEEP multi diversified team with size speed and skill. That is a LOT of size that hasnt worked--probably wont work but he had it right.

I agree with the first sentiment but as far as blaming AR, Moz, and Buike for not contending, that isn't realistic. A rookie, a project, and a seriously injured player, shouldn't be blamed for not instantly becoming part of one of the best bench's in the league their first year with the team. The Knicks already looks better than they have in a decade, I can wait a season to see if Moz and AR pan out. If they do we will have the makings of a bench that you want on a contender. Not much you can get for them at this point anyway.

I think that if Randolph Mosgov performed as they thought they may--and Azu was 100% healthy--while not expecting a contender we easily might ve had one. No blame just disappointment especially in randolph.

RIP Crushalot😞
MSG3
Posts: 22788
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 2/2/2009
Member: #2476
USA
12/20/2010  2:31 PM
I don't know how dissapointed you can be with Mozgov. Did anyone really think a very young Russian export would come in and provide 15-20 minutes a night of great ball right away? I'm dissapointed Azu isn't in the rotation yet, but we knew we were getting a guy coming off of major surgery.

Randolph is the key cog who hasn't come through. With him playing 20-25 quality minutes/night we wouldn't be elite, but upper echelon for sure. We can't be too upset about our record right now in any case though....no matter how much the Boston game stung or what a bad loss Cleveland was.

PresIke
Posts: 27671
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/26/2001
Member: #33
USA
12/20/2010  2:52 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/20/2010  2:52 PM
MSG3 wrote:I don't know how dissapointed you can be with Mozgov. Did anyone really think a very young Russian export would come in and provide 15-20 minutes a night of great ball right away? I'm dissapointed Azu isn't in the rotation yet, but we knew we were getting a guy coming off of major surgery.

Randolph is the key cog who hasn't come through. With him playing 20-25 quality minutes/night we wouldn't be elite, but upper echelon for sure. We can't be too upset about our record right now in any case though....no matter how much the Boston game stung or what a bad loss Cleveland was.

i am only in that we saw more in pre-season. it's fair to say the expectations should be lower, given his experience, but the disappointment was only in that i had hoped he would have helped a bit more after that. i'm not mad at him, because he is clearly still learning, and the expectations were lower before.

as for randolph, IF, and i mean IF we got what was expected, which was definitely more than what we are seeing -- yes, he is the bigger disappointment -- then we would be in much better shape.

Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
Nalod
Posts: 71185
Alba Posts: 155
Joined: 12/24/2003
Member: #508
USA
12/20/2010  4:43 PM
Blame vs. disapointed.

Moz is fine, AR has gone backwards.

Buikkake I can't imagine anyone was expecting much other than some fans. Until a dude is on the floor practicing full contact he is nowhere.

Melo2NYK
Posts: 20167
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/17/2010
Member: #3278

12/20/2010  4:59 PM
BRIGGS wrote:Also--fck Melo if he doesn't have the patience to wait until FA.


I fully believe that D Walsk will build an NBA championship team with melo OR WITHOUT him. Im confident--we haev the blueprint. If Randolph Mosgov and Azubuke were either healthy or performed as expected--wed already be mentioned as a championship contender right now--and that was not expected.
We have TREMENDOUS leverage with the cap space---no way we NEEd CA--we needa DEEP multi diversified team with size speed and skill. That is a LOT of size that hasnt worked--probably wont work but he had it right.

You're sadly mistaken if you think a perennial role player (Azubuike), a potential player that never was a consistent member of his past team's rotation (Randolph) and a project (Mozgov) is all that stands in the way of us and beating the LA Lakers, Boston Celtics, Miami Heat, San Antonio Spurs and even the Orlando Magic. Simply mistaken mixed with a side of nutty.

The Melo Contingent's "Told Ya So"

©2001-2025 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy