Melo is a great player.

Can he be a great player in the context of MDA and what this team is doing? Melo does not flow the offense he is the end result of the offense.

When Amare Passes the ball the advantages are apparent. He gets better shots as a result.

Melo can do everything better than either Gallo or Wilson. Thats not the point, it the context by which he plays within th offense.

If coaches think he can then its an upgrade. If not, he brings us down.

And if we have to trade away too many pieces then the whole complextion of the team is done.

We don't NEED Carmelo. We NEED another big and a back up point.

Marv wrote:

martin wrote:

Marv wrote:

martin wrote:Here is what Melo brings that Chandler and Gallo (in combination or by themselves) have not yet proven they can duplicate:

1) Carrying a team offensively for wins. Whether is be for a stretch of games during the regular season or during a stretch of a game during playoffs (especially when a guy like Amare is one bench).
2) Right now both Gallo and Chandler are very good MDA system guys but very much unproven otherwise.
3) Melo gets the superstar status calls, treatments etc. which is necessary during playoffs.

However, they do have positives that Melo does not:

1) Cost a lot less, so this means you can fill other holes
2) Play much better defense
3) Are still maturing and may indeed fill enough of the Melo role outlined above.
4) 2 Players better than 1 all things being equal (more fouls, more minutes, etc).

so can’t we also say that melo is proven on teams that are built around his dominating the ball but that he’s very much unproven as an mda system guy. certainly the olympics or worlds don’t count since mda was not the head coach and lebron and wade made everybody else's roles much easier.

can't argue with you on that.

But Melo has averaged near 25PPG in a tough Western conference as perhaps the ONLY real offensive option on his team, that's says something. And we KNOW that defenses and defenders go sky high during playoff season. Chandler and Gallo could collapse in that atmosphere.

absolutely. but i also go back to the thought that darko was a horrible draft selection for detroit but may have won them a championship. with melo at the 3 instead of prince you get stopped ball movement and less D and passing. would have hurt that team's chemistry.

i know that melo's a much better ball player over all than i'm arguing for on these threads. it's because i see him REALLY altering the chemistry that we're developing, and not necessarily for the better. sometimes you really are better off with a team of ONE alpha dog - especially the way amar’es filling the role - with a bunch of guys around him who are all willing to do the dirty work AND are all capable of backing him with 20 points on any given night (ray, chandler, gallo, fields, even td and maybe eventually williams and randolph).

just for record, I am for keeping Chandler & Gallo right now. More based on emotional attachment to home grown talent and not knowing what the trade package is. And I would love for Donnie to shore up defensive players in the middle to protect Amare.

if I am Donnie, I offer Denver 1 of Chandler/Gallo and any of pick/Walker/Willams. That's it.

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:Anubis. If what you're trying to say is:

Melo will be able to score more efficiently with Amare as a sidekick.
Amare will be able to score more efficiently with Melo as a sidekick.

You just have a really contradictory way of making your point. You say that Melo will easily score in the flow of the offense because of his mid range jumper. But then you say that Melo and Amare both hold the ball sometimes. They both catch the ball, face up, do a few jab steps and hoist up a jumper. Or they'll drive by their man if their defender is playing up close.

NOT a rhetorical question: Does having 2 players who do that sound like a flowy offense to you? Can you see how people are worried the offense might not really flow with 2 guys who do that?

If you wanted to make a point that 2 stars would make it easier for each other to score it would make more sense to say something like:

I envision Melo drawing double teams regularly and kicking it to Amare for a nice easy mid range J. Or Amare doing the same for Melo.

If that's what you see in the future. 2 guys taking turns going one on one and kicking it to each other is not fun to watch and predictable and I would imagine not that hard to defend. That's the point people are trying to make. That's why they think Melo could be a bad fit here. They're scared of seeing 82 games of Melo driving to the hoop but not looking to pass when doubled.

MDA's offensive system is based on spacing the floor with accurate outside shooters and ball movement. Amare can take people one on one and score over double/triple teams but even he looks a lot better getting easy dunks off cuts to the basket (Fields hooked him up with one against Denver), pick and roll, pick and pop, etc.

Melo is a gifted basketball player. If you want to argue that there's no reason he shouldn't be able to succeed in an MDA system and he'll adjust his game, fine. Maybe he won't have to drive into the paint and try to finish over 2,3 guys with an Amare next to him.

But you don't really have to sell anybody here that Melo can beat his guy one on one most of the time. We're all aware of that. People are just arguing that maybe the Knicks offense doesn't need 2 guys who can do that.

What did MDA have on Phoenix with that awesome offense?

- a PG who can both create his own offense and create shot for teammates. Felton is not Nash but he certainly seems like he can score on his own and also find people. We've seen Felton drive and finish some difficult looking shots, get hot from outside, etc. He had 17 assists yesterday.

- Amare

Other than the time they had Joe Johnson, who else on that Suns team was a crazy one on one scorer? Marion was more of a Chandler type in that he could guard multiple positions and slash to the hoop/hit the open outside shot.

TD is supposed to be our Barbosa speedy combo guard type.

It seems like those Suns fell short due to bad luck like the suspensions during the Spur series or just running into the eventual NBA champions. Some would say they fell short because they couldn't get stops. I don't think anyone would say that the Suns fell short because they lacked a guy who could create his own shot.

Even the year that Amare was injured you know who had a breakout year in the MDA offense, Boris Fricking Diaw..because he could guard multiple positions, make up for the lack of a true center, and was a crazy good passer for a big guy.

Think about how we score now..Felton tries pick and roll with Amare and if it's not there then he kicks to someone for a three. What do you envision being our bread and butter offense with Melo Amare and Felton on the floor?

I'm not convinced that Melo would bog down the offense. How do you see it working though?

People that are concerned about Melo keep saying the same things:

1. We don't need scoring. The team as currently constructed is scoring just fine. Maybe we've just been playing crappy defenses. Do you think we need scoring? Have we just been lucky to face a soft schedule?

2. We need:

- a big who can defend, complement Amare's weaknesses and help him get some rest.
- a backup PG who can do the same for Felton.

Melo is none of these. Signing him means way less $ to find quality players to fill these roles. Yes role players are easier to find than true stars but you still have to pay these guys.

People keep saying oh big deal you can find a big man like that easy. Ok..so do some research. Assuming the cap stays the same, find me those two needs from a pool of players who will be FAs this offseason or put together a realistic trade (works under the current cap, both teams have a reason to do it. I tried it out and it's not that easy.

3. MDA's system depends on 3 pt shooters to space the floor. If we trade Gallo. Who fills that role on this team? Again, realistically who is available? Does the $ work?

It's been well established that 99% of people on this board know that Melo is a pretty nasty player. It also looks more and more like he's going to wind up here.

Instead of the same cyclical argument of

Melo is great!

But he won't fit here.

Melo is nasty. He'll fit anywhere!

But he won't fit here.

If you're super sure that Melo takes us to the next level (I don't think it's a crazy idea btw), then let's start a more fun conversation

Step 1. Get Melo

Step 2. Find pieces that work around Melo, Amare, Felton.

Forget all these vague "Oh we'll find someone who can do the rest" statements.

Who are those pieces? How do we get them? How much do they cost?

Go.

- Im not contradicting myself. I dont envision Melo haveing a 60% FG percentage. When I said they hold the ball I was referring to the fact that Melo and Amare arent likely to get many wide open looks regardless. Im saying they will be more liley to receive single coverage which they can exploit. They will also have to force the issue on offense less. That means less TO's less "bad" shots.

- With Melo and Amare I envision two guys who we can rely on to carry us for 82 games. On the offensive end thing would be the same. Only difference is Carmelo doesnt need to be WIDE open for it to be a good shot. Carmelo just needs space to get the shot off. I think some over look that. We currently have guys that can knock down wide open shots but disappear when pressure is applied.

- Felton should not be averaging 14 FGA per game period. He has shown he can get Amare the ball but he isnt a playmaker. I want Felton to focus on defending and hitting open shots or penetrating. That is it.

- With the current lineup you cant just throw any defensive big in the mix because you have guys playing out of position. Add a big and 1 of Chandler, Gallo, and Fields has to go to the bench. Will the defensive big be able to provide the missing scoring? Will the defensive big be able to provide enough defense to offset their offensice short coming?

- D'Antoni system isnt necessarily predicated on jacking 3's. His system is predicating on out shooting the other team. If you can score 2 points at a high rate with good percentages you will win games.

AnubisADL wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:Anubis. If what you're trying to say is:

Melo will be able to score more efficiently with Amare as a sidekick.
Amare will be able to score more efficiently with Melo as a sidekick.

You just have a really contradictory way of making your point. You say that Melo will easily score in the flow of the offense because of his mid range jumper. But then you say that Melo and Amare both hold the ball sometimes. They both catch the ball, face up, do a few jab steps and hoist up a jumper. Or they'll drive by their man if their defender is playing up close.

NOT a rhetorical question: Does having 2 players who do that sound like a flowy offense to you? Can you see how people are worried the offense might not really flow with 2 guys who do that?

If you wanted to make a point that 2 stars would make it easier for each other to score it would make more sense to say something like:

I envision Melo drawing double teams regularly and kicking it to Amare for a nice easy mid range J. Or Amare doing the same for Melo.

If that's what you see in the future. 2 guys taking turns going one on one and kicking it to each other is not fun to watch and predictable and I would imagine not that hard to defend. That's the point people are trying to make. That's why they think Melo could be a bad fit here. They're scared of seeing 82 games of Melo driving to the hoop but not looking to pass when doubled.

MDA's offensive system is based on spacing the floor with accurate outside shooters and ball movement. Amare can take people one on one and score over double/triple teams but even he looks a lot better getting easy dunks off cuts to the basket (Fields hooked him up with one against Denver), pick and roll, pick and pop, etc.

Melo is a gifted basketball player. If you want to argue that there's no reason he shouldn't be able to succeed in an MDA system and he'll adjust his game, fine. Maybe he won't have to drive into the paint and try to finish over 2,3 guys with an Amare next to him.

But you don't really have to sell anybody here that Melo can beat his guy one on one most of the time. We're all aware of that. People are just arguing that maybe the Knicks offense doesn't need 2 guys who can do that.

What did MDA have on Phoenix with that awesome offense?

- a PG who can both create his own offense and create shot for teammates. Felton is not Nash but he certainly seems like he can score on his own and also find people. We've seen Felton drive and finish some difficult looking shots, get hot from outside, etc. He had 17 assists yesterday.

- Amare

Other than the time they had Joe Johnson, who else on that Suns team was a crazy one on one scorer? Marion was more of a Chandler type in that he could guard multiple positions and slash to the hoop/hit the open outside shot.

TD is supposed to be our Barbosa speedy combo guard type.

It seems like those Suns fell short due to bad luck like the suspensions during the Spur series or just running into the eventual NBA champions. Some would say they fell short because they couldn't get stops. I don't think anyone would say that the Suns fell short because they lacked a guy who could create his own shot.

Even the year that Amare was injured you know who had a breakout year in the MDA offense, Boris Fricking Diaw..because he could guard multiple positions, make up for the lack of a true center, and was a crazy good passer for a big guy.

Think about how we score now..Felton tries pick and roll with Amare and if it's not there then he kicks to someone for a three. What do you envision being our bread and butter offense with Melo Amare and Felton on the floor?

I'm not convinced that Melo would bog down the offense. How do you see it working though?

People that are concerned about Melo keep saying the same things:

1. We don't need scoring. The team as currently constructed is scoring just fine. Maybe we've just been playing crappy defenses. Do you think we need scoring? Have we just been lucky to face a soft schedule?

2. We need:

- a big who can defend, complement Amare's weaknesses and help him get some rest.
- a backup PG who can do the same for Felton.

Melo is none of these. Signing him means way less $ to find quality players to fill these roles. Yes role players are easier to find than true stars but you still have to pay these guys.

People keep saying oh big deal you can find a big man like that easy. Ok..so do some research. Assuming the cap stays the same, find me those two needs from a pool of players who will be FAs this offseason or put together a realistic trade (works under the current cap, both teams have a reason to do it. I tried it out and it's not that easy.

3. MDA's system depends on 3 pt shooters to space the floor. If we trade Gallo. Who fills that role on this team? Again, realistically who is available? Does the $ work?

It's been well established that 99% of people on this board know that Melo is a pretty nasty player. It also looks more and more like he's going to wind up here.

Instead of the same cyclical argument of

Melo is great!

But he won't fit here.

Melo is nasty. He'll fit anywhere!

But he won't fit here.

If you're super sure that Melo takes us to the next level (I don't think it's a crazy idea btw), then let's start a more fun conversation

Step 1. Get Melo

Step 2. Find pieces that work around Melo, Amare, Felton.

Forget all these vague "Oh we'll find someone who can do the rest" statements.

Who are those pieces? How do we get them? How much do they cost?

Go.

- Im not contradicting myself. I dont envision Melo haveing a 60% FG percentage. When I said they hold the ball I was referring to the fact that Melo and Amare arent likely to get many wide open looks regardless. Im saying they will be more liley to receive single coverage which they can exploit. They will also have to force the issue on offense less. That means less TO's less "bad" shots.

- With Melo and Amare I envision two guys who we can rely on to carry us for 82 games. On the offensive end thing would be the same. Only difference is Carmelo doesnt need to be WIDE open for it to be a good shot. Carmelo just needs space to get the shot off. I think some over look that. We currently have guys that can knock down wide open shots but disappear when pressure is applied.

- Felton should not be averaging 14 FGA per game period. He has shown he can get Amare the ball but he isnt a playmaker. I want Felton to focus on defending and hitting open shots or penetrating. That is it.
- With the current lineup you cant just throw any defensive big in the mix because you have guys playing out of position. Add a big and 1 of Chandler, Gallo, and Fields has to go to the bench. Will the defensive big be able to provide the missing scoring? Will the defensive big be able to provide enough defense to offset their offensice short coming?

- D'Antoni system isnt necessarily predicated on jacking 3's. His system is predicating on out shooting the other team. If you can score 2 points at a high rate with good percentages you will win games.

why? i don’t get that. he’s doing a great job imo with the timing of those attempts. a good part of the reason that he's working well with amar'e could be that the D has to guard him for the shot as well as the pass.

Curry's expiring/TD/something else

or

Curry's expiring/Chandler/something else.

If we play the season out DW still has to decide if he wants to spend $17-20 M on

Chandler + whatever the Knicks need as currently constructed

or

Melo

I think maybe the advantage to playing out the season is we can repeat what we did this offseason.

Step 1: Sign a star (Amare/Melo)

Step 2: Use our homegrown asset (Lee/Chandler) who plays the same position to sign and trade for something useful...

martin wrote:

Marv wrote:

martin wrote:

Marv wrote:

martin wrote:Here is what Melo brings that Chandler and Gallo (in combination or by themselves) have not yet proven they can duplicate:

1) Carrying a team offensively for wins. Whether is be for a stretch of games during the regular season or during a stretch of a game during playoffs (especially when a guy like Amare is one bench).
2) Right now both Gallo and Chandler are very good MDA system guys but very much unproven otherwise.
3) Melo gets the superstar status calls, treatments etc. which is necessary during playoffs.

However, they do have positives that Melo does not:

1) Cost a lot less, so this means you can fill other holes
2) Play much better defense
3) Are still maturing and may indeed fill enough of the Melo role outlined above.
4) 2 Players better than 1 all things being equal (more fouls, more minutes, etc).

so can’t we also say that melo is proven on teams that are built around his dominating the ball but that he’s very much unproven as an mda system guy. certainly the olympics or worlds don’t count since mda was not the head coach and lebron and wade made everybody else's roles much easier.

can't argue with you on that.

But Melo has averaged near 25PPG in a tough Western conference as perhaps the ONLY real offensive option on his team, that's says something. And we KNOW that defenses and defenders go sky high during playoff season. Chandler and Gallo could collapse in that atmosphere.

absolutely. but i also go back to the thought that darko was a horrible draft selection for detroit but may have won them a championship. with melo at the 3 instead of prince you get stopped ball movement and less D and passing. would have hurt that team's chemistry.

i know that melo's a much better ball player over all than i'm arguing for on these threads. it's because i see him REALLY altering the chemistry that we're developing, and not necessarily for the better. sometimes you really are better off with a team of ONE alpha dog - especially the way amar’es filling the role - with a bunch of guys around him who are all willing to do the dirty work AND are all capable of backing him with 20 points on any given night (ray, chandler, gallo, fields, even td and maybe eventually williams and randolph).

Marv, here are a couple of other scenario's where Melo helps the team better:

Maybe MDA sets up the offense so that it's Melo in the high post just like Amare is right now: PnR starts and Felton decision whether to shoot, pass to 3point shooter or give to Melo. They run this for 3 quarters so that Amare can rest and just focus on playing defense (and not worry about getting fouls), and then in the 4th it's Amare time.

Playoff time is more about half court sets which is a huge advantage for Melo over either Chandler or Gallo.

When Amare goes to bench and (perhaps) Felton rests, having Melo out there with TD would ease the PG duties of our still growing backup point; just give the ball to Melo and get out of the way.

ok i love that in theory but doesn’t it contradict a bit one of the key things you’ve been ragging on carmelo about - his inability to win a single play-off series 6 out of 7 years?

You add Melo, you add a supporting cast in the offseason, and then you have a perennial contender. I am still totally in favor of getting Melo. At some point this winning streak is going to end and the posts I'm reading are going to sound completely different

SupremeCommander wrote:Amar'e and Melo would be an athletic, dangerous inside/outside offensive tandem, especially with Felton getting them the ball. That core has weaknesses, sure, but that's easier to address than finding another reliable, consistent scoring threat. Melo is just nasty and a pleasure to watch in person. He's bigger and stronger than other SFs. If he gets his conditioning up to 's standards, I think his game will get even better.

You add Melo, you add a supporting cast in the offseason, and then you have a perennial contender. I am still totally in favor of getting Melo. At some point this winning streak is going to end and the posts I'm reading are going to sound completely different

I bet his offense will be even more efficient in MDA'S system. I really cant believe this is happening right now. We are on a roll and have the possibility to sign a second star, this is awesome.

SupremeCommander wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

martin wrote:Marv, here are a couple of other scenario's where Melo helps the team better:

Maybe MDA sets up the offense so that it's Melo in the high post just like Amare is right now: PnR starts and Felton decision whether to shoot, pass to 3point shooter or give to Melo. They run this for 3 quarters so that Amare can rest and just focus on playing defense (and not worry about getting fouls), and then in the 4th it's Amare time.

Playoff time is more about half court sets which is a huge advantage for Melo over either Chandler or Gallo.

When Amare goes to bench and (perhaps) Felton rests, having Melo out there with TD would ease the PG duties of our still growing backup point; just give the ball to Melo and get out of the way.

Peirce and Garnett do it and still leave enough shots for RA to have his share of 20 point games.

There will be nights Amare doesn't get 30. Can we handle that?

No. I was at the Denver game and when Amar'e was on the bench we weren't even close to being into the Nuggets' league

This.

I was at the Toronto game begging for MDA to get the starters back in. All this stuff about the bench not getting enough minutes is bull. These games are tough, we have no margin to spare.