GodSaveTheKnicks please finish this sentence

I am against the right of white extremist/ automatic weapon carrying, militia groups to train in the woods because -

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/23/AR2010082303744.html

Over the years, thousands of priests have abused many thousands of children. This is a lamentable fact. Yet no rational person can possibly believe that all priests are pedophiles and that a plan to erect a church should or could be opposed by victims of priestly pedophilia. We know the difference between the acts of individuals -- even many of them -- and the dogma or beliefs of an entire religion. I am a Jew, but do not judge me by Baruch Goldstein, who in 1994 murdered 29 Muslims in Hebron.

misterearl wrote:The Timothy McVeigh Tapes

GodSaveTheKnicks please finish this sentence

I am against the right of white extremist/ automatic weapon carrying, militia groups to train in the woods because -

Ok maybe it was a loaded way to ask the question

Q1: I am against an Islamic Mosque being built near Ground Zero because

I don't really have a reason why I'm for or against it. I have no idea if the imam of the mosque is
a jihadist or he is a peaceful muslim who condemns terrorism.

Q2: I am against the right of white extremist/ automatic weapon carrying, militia groups to train in the woods because -

I'm not against this really. I feel sorry for white extremists because I feel like they're spending
their precious lives on hate and resentment when they could be trying to better themselves
and exploring the world/other cultures before they reach a conclusion on why it is the way it is.

But technically, under the constitution, if they want to wear camouflage and legally bear weapons
and train themselves to wage war against the people oppressing them, I believe they're allowed to.

So I'm not against the right of white extremists to form their little militias as long as they're being
monitored and they're stopped if they try to hurt people.

I would be against the mosque if there was proof that it would become a terror camp. It kind of seems
like a mosque near ground zero may be one of the last places on earth you would want to hatch
a terrorist conspiracy no? It seems like if the mosque gets built it's going to get watched..
perhaps by the same militia people mentioned above.

I'm just curious..for the people who have super strong opinions for/against it . Can you finish the sentence in a logical manner?

I am for/against the mosque because __________ .

and then be able to have that reason make sense and be applicable to other situations.

misterearl wrote:C'mon Man!

GodSaveTheKnicks - it is not a mosque. "Ground Zero Mosque" made a catchy headline to drum up passion and eyeballs.

"It seems like if the mosque gets built it's going to get watched... perhaps by the same militia people mentioned above."

Sure, just like the airports, arenas, malls and all public places are watched by the self-appointed militia.

Frightened and ignorant militia people, running around lower Manhattan with automatic weapons, is something you are advocating?

ummm..mister early..when i wrote mosque/terrorist training camp that was done tongue in cheek. "Ground Zero Mosque" is obviously something meant to get the airwaves buzzing. You seem to not understand what I'm trying to say.

I'm not strongly for or against the mosque/cultural center/whatever people are calling it because I don't have enough solid information to form an opinion. It definitely feels like there are

a) liberals who automatically paint the other side as ignorant, hate filled, idealogues with no regard for the facts

b) conservatives who automatically think the liberals are ignorant, obama loving, naive, america haters.

and not enough people trying to find out more about the people who are building the whatever before forming an opinion.

The point of my post was to ask people who are strongly against it:

Can you finish the sentence "I am against [whatever you want to call what they're building] because ______"

and have that ______ filled in with something logical.

To those who say the mosque/cultural center has the potential to be a breeding ground for jihadists, I was saying it seems highly unlikely that jihadists would pick such a high profile location to hatch any evil schemes in.

As far as I know it's illegal to run around lower Manhattan with automatic weapons.

martin wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

misterearl wrote:C'mon Man!

GodSaveTheKnicks - it is not a mosque. "Ground Zero Mosque" made a catchy headline to drum up passion and eyeballs.

"It seems like if the mosque gets built it's going to get watched... perhaps by the same militia people mentioned above."

Sure, just like the airports, arenas, malls and all public places are watched by the self-appointed militia.

Frightened and ignorant militia people, running around lower Manhattan with automatic weapons, is something you are advocating?

ummm..mister early..when i wrote mosque/terrorist training camp that was done tongue in cheek. "Ground Zero Mosque" is obviously something meant to get the airwaves buzzing. You seem to not understand what I'm trying to say.

I'm not strongly for or against the mosque/cultural center/whatever people are calling it because I don't have enough solid information to form an opinion. It definitely feels like there are

a) liberals who automatically paint the other side as ignorant, hate filled, idealogues with no regard for the facts

b) conservatives who automatically think the liberals are ignorant, obama loving, naive, america haters.

and not enough people trying to find out more about the people who are building the whatever before forming an opinion.

The point of my post was to ask people who are strongly against it:

Can you finish the sentence "I am against [whatever you want to call what they're building] because ______"

and have that ______ filled in with something logical.

To those who say the mosque/cultural center has the potential to be a breeding ground for jihadists, I was saying it seems highly unlikely that jihadists would pick such a high profile location to hatch any evil schemes in.

As far as I know it's illegal to run around lower Manhattan with automatic weapons.

What facts are you missing? There is plenty out there unless you are purposely not trying to find out.

Guilty as charged. I haven't gone out of my way to find out about the facts. Which is why I haven't formed a strong opinion. If you, or someone else, has a strong opinion I'm interested in hearing what facts led you to form that opinion.

It's funny my HS is a few blocks from ground zero and was actually used as a triage center in the aftermath. A lot of students had parents who worked in the towers and saw people jumping out through classroom windows. I now work a few blocks from there and actually used to walk by it every single day from the E train.

The facts that I'm missing are

- who is funding the building?
- what kind of Muslim is the leader of this group?

If the guy turns out to have extremist views I can 100% understand why families of 9/11 victims and the city in general would be up in arms about the building.

I just read the TMQ and think he has a pretty sensible take on the situation:

"Why Isn't the Pentagon Mosque on the Front Page? There's a small chance you have heard about a plan to build a mosque near (not "at") Ground Zero in New York. The controversy is puzzling on many levels, most important, that this is America! Freedom must not be an empty concept. Freedom of religion means freedom of religion. The basic bargain of the First Amendment, as regards speech as well as faith, is that the sole way to protect the right to opinions and beliefs is to protect all opinions and all beliefs, keeping government out of the business of deciding which ones we like or don't like.

The people who attacked the United States on 9/11 might have called themselves Muslims, though clearly were breaking the tenets of their faith. All religions have produced a few murderous fanatics -- we don't hold this against the faith when Christianity or Judaism is involved. Baruch Goldstein, raised as a Jew, used a machine gun to murder 29 Muslims in 1994 in Hebron. Goldstein was a monster, not a religious believer, and was breaking the tenets of the faith he claimed. No sensible person would say that because of Baruch Goldstein, synagogues should not be built on the West Bank. Timothy McVeigh, who called himself a Christian, murdered 168 people with a terrorist bomb in Oklahoma City, and it's clear to everyone he was breaking the tenets of his faith. Why can't we understand the same thing about the 9/11 killers? No one would object to a Christian church being built near the Oklahoma City terror bomb site.

Here's what really puzzles me -- with all the snarling hatred on display regarding the proposed downtown New York mosque, there's been no discussion of the mosque that already exists inside the Pentagon. Islamic services are held in an interfaith chapel quite close to where a plane flown by murderers struck on 9/11, and that has caused no problems. The Washington Post buried the story on Page A-11, and most newspapers and newscasts haven't mentioned the Pentagon mosque at all. If the people who work inside the Pentagon can see past their differences and embrace religious tolerance, how come this is impossible for people such as Newt Gingrich?"

arkrud wrote:
I cannot see anywhere in my post anything even close to what you state.

loweyecue wrote:

arkrud wrote:
I cannot see anywhere in my post anything even close to what you state.

That's why I bolded and underlined the part where it sounded like you were saying exactly that.

Here is what I was referring to, you seem to be saying all ,uslim people support those acts of violence against those countries, THAT is what I was calling out.

arkrud wrote:Muslim people of the world will be ALL hold accountable for the crimes committed in the name of Islam until they will stand up and get read themselves and the World from their criminal fundamentalist leaders.
So far they are supporting them in all their crimes and genocides in Darfur, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Chechnya, Palestine, Somalia, US, and all over the World.

However, I do beleive it is the wrong thing to do. Clearly right or wrong, the idea of a new Mosque relatively close to ground zero is offensive to the majority of the population as per the polls.

If they polled me, I would say I did not want it either.

To me a Mosque represents Muslim conquest, whith historically it really does. The Jerusalem mosque is built on top of the temple ruins. In modern day Istanbul, formely known as Konstantinople, most of the major Mosques are former Christian cathedrals. In India, Mosques are often built right on top of important Hindu temples when these areas were under the rule of Muslim rulers.

Islam is a young religion, and as such is closley intertwined with conquest of all "others". Christianity was and in some parts of the world still is the same way.

Would you accept a Phalangist church built a day's walk from Sabra in Lebanon?
Would you accept a Serbian orthodox church built in Srebrenica?
Would you accept Mosque built in Beslan across the street from the school?
Would you accept a monumeet to Stalin built by former Siberian concentration camp?

Just because something is legally legit, does not make it the right thing to do.

Solace wrote:They proclaimed a holy war and did it in the name of Allah. This is factual information

this is going on INSIDE one of the targets... dont know if that has been mentioned (or posted) and if not -- it should be part of the "debate".