Posted by arkrud:

Posted by sebstar:

Posted by RemBee76:

Posted by sebstar:
But I dont think the relationship between police departments and Black citizens which have lead to false arrests, abuse, brutal beatings, and even death has been coincidental or unfortunate happenstance.

Right you are Seb, couldn't agree more.

My point is only that it is problematic when it’s somehow necessary to point that out when there is zero reason to think the arrest was racially motivated.

It’s even more problematic when our president calls out the Cambridge Police department when he himself admitted that he didn't have all the facts, and someone here says "right on, finally our president is acting like a black man."

Practice the racial transcendence you preach. Simple and plain.

I was half joking about Obama which stems from the fact that he is so consistently race neutral in every situation. This was all about him sticking up for a friend, not tackling racial injustice.

I think this situation is less about Gates and is part of a broader social narrative and that's the way cops view Blacks. If it were a white Harvard professor and the cop discovered he was simply an elderly man who was simply trying to enter his residence after a long trip from China, the day does not end with the cop arresting him in his own home. He would have accepted that the man was doing nothing wrong, was plenty agitated for good reason, and he would have left the residence. He would have showed Gates respect.

To me, by and large that respect for Blacks is absent among many cops. As soon as Gates started mouthing off, the officer saw an opportunity to put Gates in his place. For Gates, a very distinguished man all that meant was an inconvenient arrest. For Blacks who have considerably less stature, putting them "in their place" could have deadly repercussions. Just my perspective and the perspective that no doubt fueled Gates that day once the officer began showing him blatant disrespect in his own home.

If Gates will be white he will never act the way he did with the cops. Because white man has no back thoughts about racism, so has no need to attack to self-defend.
It is unfortunate that we have this baggage, but both sides need to work to get read of it. And Gates in this case never helped the matter.

white men never get angry?

Posted by sebstar:

Posted by arkrud:

Posted by sebstar:

Posted by RemBee76:

Posted by sebstar:
But I dont think the relationship between police departments and Black citizens which have lead to false arrests, abuse, brutal beatings, and even death has been coincidental or unfortunate happenstance.

Right you are Seb, couldn't agree more.

My point is only that it is problematic when it’s somehow necessary to point that out when there is zero reason to think the arrest was racially motivated.

It’s even more problematic when our president calls out the Cambridge Police department when he himself admitted that he didn't have all the facts, and someone here says "right on, finally our president is acting like a black man."

Practice the racial transcendence you preach. Simple and plain.

I was half joking about Obama which stems from the fact that he is so consistently race neutral in every situation. This was all about him sticking up for a friend, not tackling racial injustice.

I think this situation is less about Gates and is part of a broader social narrative and that's the way cops view Blacks. If it were a white Harvard professor and the cop discovered he was simply an elderly man who was simply trying to enter his residence after a long trip from China, the day does not end with the cop arresting him in his own home. He would have accepted that the man was doing nothing wrong, was plenty agitated for good reason, and he would have left the residence. He would have showed Gates respect.

To me, by and large that respect for Blacks is absent among many cops. As soon as Gates started mouthing off, the officer saw an opportunity to put Gates in his place. For Gates, a very distinguished man all that meant was an inconvenient arrest. For Blacks who have considerably less stature, putting them "in their place" could have deadly repercussions. Just my perspective and the perspective that no doubt fueled Gates that day once the officer began showing him blatant disrespect in his own home.

If Gates will be white he will never act the way he did with the cops. Because white man has no back thoughts about racism, so has no need to attack to self-defend.
It is unfortunate that we have this baggage, but both sides need to work to get read of it. And Gates in this case never helped the matter.

white men never get angry?

No we don't. You didn't know Christian Bale was black?

Posted by sebstar:

and c'mon RemBee76, giving a damn near 60 year old man with a cane the benefit of the doubt is somehow reverse discrimination or something?

I'll repeat myself, this sort of thing just boils down to different perspectives. You think the exact same scenario would have played out if this were a white professor. I say there is no way in hell a white professor is led out in handcuffs for trying to get into his own home. Either the phone call to the cops wouldnt have been made, or the police officer would have been more genial in his treatment of Gates, or the officer would have been more understanding of Gates' anger and simply left the premises.

Crowley would not have arrested a white professor in his own neighborhood like that for such dubious reasons. Simple and plain.

Posted by TheGame:

I am late to this discussion but the bottomline is that once the cop determined that the house was Gates, he should have said thanks and took his butt on. What basically happened is Gates gave the officer attitude (whether justified or not) and the officer decided that he was going to show Gates up by arresting (a clear abuse of his power). They charged Gates with creating a disturbance in a public place. How the hell do you create a disturbance in a public place but talking to an officer while standing in your own damn house? The charge and the arrest were pure BS, motivated out of malice. This officer should be severely reprimanded and made an example.

[Edited by - thegame on 24-07-2009 05:33]

Posted by TheGame:

Posted by firefly:

Posted by TheGame:

I am late to this discussion but the bottomline is that once the cop determined that the house was Gates, he should have said thanks and took his butt on. What basically happened is Gates gave the officer attitude (whether justified or not) and the officer decided that he was going to show Gates up by arresting (a clear abuse of his power). They charged Gates with creating a disturbance in a public place. How the hell do you create a disturbance in a public place but talking to an officer while standing in your own damn house? The charge and the arrest were pure BS, motivated out of malice. This officer should be severely reprimanded and made an example.

[Edited by - thegame on 24-07-2009 05:33]

I know you said youre late to the discussion, and perhaps you should go over the facts of the case. He wasnt arested for causing a public disturbance in his house. He was arrested when he followed the cop out of his house and continued shouting about racism and "do you know who I am" in his front yard/the street.

The cop may have been a complete ass for arresting him, but this wasnt racially motivated and I see no reason why he should lose his job over this. He definately shouldnt have arrested him, but Gates was asking for it and letter of the law states that he be arrested. We all know the cop was an idiot, the only question is whether it was about race. From the facts as presented both by Gates and the police, Gates was the only one who made it about race, regardless of what we can understand about his general apprehension because of past history.

[Edited by - firefly on 07-24-2009 05:39 AM]

Those aren't the facts according to Gates. In an interview he said:

HLG: The police report says I was engaged in loud and tumultuous behavior. That’s a joke. Because I have a severe bronchial infection which I contracted in China and for which I was treated and have a doctor’s report from the Peninsula hotel in Beijing. So I couldn’t have yelled. I can’t yell even today, I’m not fully cured.

It escalated as follows: I kept saying to him, ‘What is your name, and what is your badge number?’ and he refused to respond. I asked him three times, and he refused to respond. And then I said, ‘You’re not responding because I’m a black man, and you’re a white officer.’ That’s what I said. He didn’t say anything. He turned his back to me and turned back to the porch. And I followed him. I kept saying, “I want your name, and I want your badge number.”

It looked like an ocean of police had gathered on my front porch. There were probably half a dozen police officers at this point. The mistake I made was I stepped onto the front porch and asked one of his colleagues for his name and badge number. And when I did, the same officer said, ‘Thank you for accommodating our request. You are under arrest.’ And he handcuffed me right there. It was outrageous. My hands were behind my back I said, ‘I’m handicapped. I walk with a cane. I can’t walk to the squad car like this.’ There was a huddle among the officers; there was a black man among them. They removed the cuffs from the back and put them around the front.

A crowd had gathered, and as they were handcuffing me and walking me out to the car, I said, ‘Is this how you treat a black man in America?’

____

Thus, I think you have the facts wrong. And, he was charged with causing a public disturbance, which again is ridiculous under the circumstances. While the cops primary motivation was to get back at Gates for giving him attitute, race also played a role in the cop's decision because there is no way in hell he would have arrested a well-dressed white male in that neighborhood under similar circumstances.

Posted by TheGame:

Posted by firefly:

Posted by TheGame:

Posted by firefly:

Posted by TheGame:

I am late to this discussion but the bottomline is that once the cop determined that the house was Gates, he should have said thanks and took his butt on. What basically happened is Gates gave the officer attitude (whether justified or not) and the officer decided that he was going to show Gates up by arresting (a clear abuse of his power). They charged Gates with creating a disturbance in a public place. How the hell do you create a disturbance in a public place but talking to an officer while standing in your own damn house? The charge and the arrest were pure BS, motivated out of malice. This officer should be severely reprimanded and made an example.

[Edited by - thegame on 24-07-2009 05:33]

I know you said youre late to the discussion, and perhaps you should go over the facts of the case. He wasnt arested for causing a public disturbance in his house. He was arrested when he followed the cop out of his house and continued shouting about racism and "do you know who I am" in his front yard/the street.

The cop may have been a complete ass for arresting him, but this wasnt racially motivated and I see no reason why he should lose his job over this. He definately shouldnt have arrested him, but Gates was asking for it and letter of the law states that he be arrested. We all know the cop was an idiot, the only question is whether it was about race. From the facts as presented both by Gates and the police, Gates was the only one who made it about race, regardless of what we can understand about his general apprehension because of past history.

[Edited by - firefly on 07-24-2009 05:39 AM]

Those aren't the facts according to Gates. In an interview he said:

HLG: The police report says I was engaged in loud and tumultuous behavior. That’s a joke. Because I have a severe bronchial infection which I contracted in China and for which I was treated and have a doctor’s report from the Peninsula hotel in Beijing. So I couldn’t have yelled. I can’t yell even today, I’m not fully cured.

It escalated as follows: I kept saying to him, ‘What is your name, and what is your badge number?’ and he refused to respond. I asked him three times, and he refused to respond. And then I said, ‘You’re not responding because I’m a black man, and you’re a white officer.’ That’s what I said. He didn’t say anything. He turned his back to me and turned back to the porch. And I followed him. I kept saying, “I want your name, and I want your badge number.”

It looked like an ocean of police had gathered on my front porch. There were probably half a dozen police officers at this point. The mistake I made was I stepped onto the front porch and asked one of his colleagues for his name and badge number. And when I did, the same officer said, ‘Thank you for accommodating our request. You are under arrest.’ And he handcuffed me right there. It was outrageous. My hands were behind my back I said, ‘I’m handicapped. I walk with a cane. I can’t walk to the squad car like this.’ There was a huddle among the officers; there was a black man among them. They removed the cuffs from the back and put them around the front.

A crowd had gathered, and as they were handcuffing me and walking me out to the car, I said, ‘Is this how you treat a black man in America?’

____

Thus, I think you have the facts wrong. And, he was charged with causing a public disturbance, which again is ridiculous under the circumstances. While the cops primary motivation was to get back at Gates for giving him attitute, race also played a role in the cop's decision because there is no way in hell he would have arrested a well-dressed white male in that neighborhood under similar circumstances.

I bolded the parts that Gates said escalated the situation. So Gates agrees that he was the one who escalated it. Your quote also points out that the arrest occured after they left the house proper. It also says that it wasnt the same cop who arrested him, it was another cop which shows he was arrested for continuing his tirade at all the police officers present. Things like Gates saying he had a broncial infection mean nothing to me. Ive had bronchial pneumonia and I promise you you can yell if you want. It might hurt but you can do it. And I know twos company and threes a crowd but I never knew six is an ocean.

Im honestly not sure how you think your quote helps your arguement. The facts are as I stated them, while you said the arrest occured inside the house which simply isnt true. And as can be seen from the bolded part, the only person who brought race into the equation was Gates. He says himself there was a black cop there, you dont think a black cop would stand up for any percieved racism? I reckon the black cop probably got more annoyed then his colleagues when Gates tried to make it about race. I know if I was a cop and a jewish guy called me an anti-semite, i'd book him and that right quickly!

FIrst, I never said the arrest occurred inside the home. I said the primary discussion with the cop occurred while Gates was inside his home. Obviously, Gates was not arrested until he went outside, but according to his statement, the only thing he said when he went outside was that he asked one the officers one question and then was immediately arrested. Thus, it seems clear that he was arrested primarily for the discussions that occurred while he was in his own house. He was charged with disturbance in a public place. Moreover, even if he was on the porch, it is still his property and not public property.

he should have said thanks and took his butt on.

The cop did leave the house, immediately after seeing the id.

They charged Gates with creating a disturbance in a public place. How the hell do you create a disturbance in a public place but talking to an officer while standing in your own damn house?

Maybe Im misunderstanding you but this seems to say you think he was arrested for causing a disturbance in his home. Also, your yard might be private property, but you can certainly cause a public disturbance from it. This isnt zoning law, it straightforward policing.

While none of us were there, we kinda have to read the situation ourselves. I would say, if it was a different officer then the one in the house, which is what Gates stated, there is no way a cop not involved in the incident would do anything unless either Gates was yelling so loudly in the house that the guys outside knew what to expect, or he's downplaying the intensity of his anger. Personally I very much doubt the words he used are words to be said in a mild tone of voice. Nobody says "do you know who I am" in a calm manner, its not that kind of sentance. Nobody whispers "You’re not responding because I’m a black man, and you’re a white officer", its not that kind of sentance. I wasnt there, but its very doubtful to me that Gates said three sentances in a calm and quiet manner. He lost his rag and went to town. They still shouldnt have arrested him. Theyre still idiots for taking the bait. But the letter of the law says they can arrest someone for just this kind of situation. Just like Fishmike said, take them downtown and give them a little time-out. And they would have done the same to you, me, or any person of any color. Unless its a smokin' hot chick they would later marry.

Posted by nyk4ever:

Posted by sebstar:

Posted by arkrud:

Posted by sebstar:

Posted by RemBee76:

Posted by sebstar:
But I dont think the relationship between police departments and Black citizens which have lead to false arrests, abuse, brutal beatings, and even death has been coincidental or unfortunate happenstance.

Right you are Seb, couldn't agree more.

My point is only that it is problematic when it’s somehow necessary to point that out when there is zero reason to think the arrest was racially motivated.

It’s even more problematic when our president calls out the Cambridge Police department when he himself admitted that he didn't have all the facts, and someone here says "right on, finally our president is acting like a black man."

Practice the racial transcendence you preach. Simple and plain.

I was half joking about Obama which stems from the fact that he is so consistently race neutral in every situation. This was all about him sticking up for a friend, not tackling racial injustice.

I think this situation is less about Gates and is part of a broader social narrative and that's the way cops view Blacks. If it were a white Harvard professor and the cop discovered he was simply an elderly man who was simply trying to enter his residence after a long trip from China, the day does not end with the cop arresting him in his own home. He would have accepted that the man was doing nothing wrong, was plenty agitated for good reason, and he would have left the residence. He would have showed Gates respect.

To me, by and large that respect for Blacks is absent among many cops. As soon as Gates started mouthing off, the officer saw an opportunity to put Gates in his place. For Gates, a very distinguished man all that meant was an inconvenient arrest. For Blacks who have considerably less stature, putting them "in their place" could have deadly repercussions. Just my perspective and the perspective that no doubt fueled Gates that day once the officer began showing him blatant disrespect in his own home.

If Gates will be white he will never act the way he did with the cops. Because white man has no back thoughts about racism, so has no need to attack to self-defend.
It is unfortunate that we have this baggage, but both sides need to work to get read of it. And Gates in this case never helped the matter.

white men never get angry?

No we don't. You didn't know Christian Bale was black?

Being angry is not an excuse. But if you are a public figure and want to teach other people about live like Gates, this is a shame that he cannot control his own temper.


[Edited by - arkrud on 07-24-2009 08:24 AM]

Posted by TheGame:

Posted by firefly:

Posted by TheGame:

Posted by firefly:

Posted by TheGame:

Posted by firefly:

Posted by TheGame:

I am late to this discussion but the bottomline is that once the cop determined that the house was Gates, he should have said thanks and took his butt on. What basically happened is Gates gave the officer attitude (whether justified or not) and the officer decided that he was going to show Gates up by arresting (a clear abuse of his power). They charged Gates with creating a disturbance in a public place. How the hell do you create a disturbance in a public place but talking to an officer while standing in your own damn house? The charge and the arrest were pure BS, motivated out of malice. This officer should be severely reprimanded and made an example.

[Edited by - thegame on 24-07-2009 05:33]

I know you said youre late to the discussion, and perhaps you should go over the facts of the case. He wasnt arested for causing a public disturbance in his house. He was arrested when he followed the cop out of his house and continued shouting about racism and "do you know who I am" in his front yard/the street.

The cop may have been a complete ass for arresting him, but this wasnt racially motivated and I see no reason why he should lose his job over this. He definately shouldnt have arrested him, but Gates was asking for it and letter of the law states that he be arrested. We all know the cop was an idiot, the only question is whether it was about race. From the facts as presented both by Gates and the police, Gates was the only one who made it about race, regardless of what we can understand about his general apprehension because of past history.

[Edited by - firefly on 07-24-2009 05:39 AM]

Those aren't the facts according to Gates. In an interview he said:

HLG: The police report says I was engaged in loud and tumultuous behavior. That’s a joke. Because I have a severe bronchial infection which I contracted in China and for which I was treated and have a doctor’s report from the Peninsula hotel in Beijing. So I couldn’t have yelled. I can’t yell even today, I’m not fully cured.

It escalated as follows: I kept saying to him, ‘What is your name, and what is your badge number?’ and he refused to respond. I asked him three times, and he refused to respond. And then I said, ‘You’re not responding because I’m a black man, and you’re a white officer.’ That’s what I said. He didn’t say anything. He turned his back to me and turned back to the porch. And I followed him. I kept saying, “I want your name, and I want your badge number.”

It looked like an ocean of police had gathered on my front porch. There were probably half a dozen police officers at this point. The mistake I made was I stepped onto the front porch and asked one of his colleagues for his name and badge number. And when I did, the same officer said, ‘Thank you for accommodating our request. You are under arrest.’ And he handcuffed me right there. It was outrageous. My hands were behind my back I said, ‘I’m handicapped. I walk with a cane. I can’t walk to the squad car like this.’ There was a huddle among the officers; there was a black man among them. They removed the cuffs from the back and put them around the front.

A crowd had gathered, and as they were handcuffing me and walking me out to the car, I said, ‘Is this how you treat a black man in America?’

____

Thus, I think you have the facts wrong. And, he was charged with causing a public disturbance, which again is ridiculous under the circumstances. While the cops primary motivation was to get back at Gates for giving him attitute, race also played a role in the cop's decision because there is no way in hell he would have arrested a well-dressed white male in that neighborhood under similar circumstances.

I bolded the parts that Gates said escalated the situation. So Gates agrees that he was the one who escalated it. Your quote also points out that the arrest occured after they left the house proper. It also says that it wasnt the same cop who arrested him, it was another cop which shows he was arrested for continuing his tirade at all the police officers present. Things like Gates saying he had a broncial infection mean nothing to me. Ive had bronchial pneumonia and I promise you you can yell if you want. It might hurt but you can do it. And I know twos company and threes a crowd but I never knew six is an ocean.

Im honestly not sure how you think your quote helps your arguement. The facts are as I stated them, while you said the arrest occured inside the house which simply isnt true. And as can be seen from the bolded part, the only person who brought race into the equation was Gates. He says himself there was a black cop there, you dont think a black cop would stand up for any percieved racism? I reckon the black cop probably got more annoyed then his colleagues when Gates tried to make it about race. I know if I was a cop and a jewish guy called me an anti-semite, i'd book him and that right quickly!

FIrst, I never said the arrest occurred inside the home. I said the primary discussion with the cop occurred while Gates was inside his home. Obviously, Gates was not arrested until he went outside, but according to his statement, the only thing he said when he went outside was that he asked one the officers one question and then was immediately arrested. Thus, it seems clear that he was arrested primarily for the discussions that occurred while he was in his own house. He was charged with disturbance in a public place. Moreover, even if he was on the porch, it is still his property and not public property.

he should have said thanks and took his butt on.

The cop did leave the house, immediately after seeing the id.

They charged Gates with creating a disturbance in a public place. How the hell do you create a disturbance in a public place but talking to an officer while standing in your own damn house?

Maybe Im misunderstanding you but this seems to say you think he was arrested for causing a disturbance in his home. Also, your yard might be private property, but you can certainly cause a public disturbance from it. This isnt zoning law, it straightforward policing.

While none of us were there, we kinda have to read the situation ourselves. I would say, if it was a different officer then the one in the house, which is what Gates stated, there is no way a cop not involved in the incident would do anything unless either Gates was yelling so loudly in the house that the guys outside knew what to expect, or he's downplaying the intensity of his anger. Personally I very much doubt the words he used are words to be said in a mild tone of voice. Nobody says "do you know who I am" in a calm manner, its not that kind of sentance. Nobody whispers "You’re not responding because I’m a black man, and you’re a white officer", its not that kind of sentance. I wasnt there, but its very doubtful to me that Gates said three sentances in a calm and quiet manner. He lost his rag and went to town. They still shouldnt have arrested him. Theyre still idiots for taking the bait. But the letter of the law says they can arrest someone for just this kind of situation. Just like Fishmike said, take them downtown and give them a little time-out. And they would have done the same to you, me, or any person of any color. Unless its a smokin' hot chick they would later marry.

The cop left the house but he did not leave the premises and he did not take his other buddies with him. The bottomline is that the officers knew they had no probable cause to enter his house, so as soon as he went on his porch, they arrested him for no reason. This is America. A person should be able to express their opinion. Once the officers determined no crime was being committed, then they needed to get off his property and move on. Gates did not attack them. Gates asked what the officer's name and badge number was (which I think the officer is or at least should have been required to provide to any citizen upon request). Clearly, once the officers left, whatever situation had arisen, was going to be diffused. This was not like Gates was arguing with some other citizen and the police thought trouble might occur when they left. To suggest that an officer can arrest you from your own home or your front yard for asking for his or her badge number in a manner that the officer did not like is ridiculous, and it is exactly that same mentality which leads most minorities to distrust the police.

Dude, what are you talking about, probably cause? They were responding to a suspected robbery and obviously required to see some ID from the man purporting to be the owner of the house.

And noone, but noone is defending Gates and saying he simply "asked" the officer for his badge number. Yes, the cop should have given it to him, but dont think for one second that Gates was all innocent here. He wasnt just asking! He was yelling, screaming, throwing around racist accusations, demanding to be treated differently because of his stature ("do you know who I am!?"). nd why should the cops leave, just as the situation is escalating? ANy police officer worth their salt would be trying to calm down the situation, but Gates refused to be calm, HE escalated it further and guess what? He got booked. If I behaved like that, I would put my hands up and accept blame. Instead, Gates is calling this racist and that makes him a dumbass in my books. He cirtainly didnt further the fight against racism with his actions.

Nobody comes out of this with any credit, but the cops were well within their legal rights to detain Gates. Please dont confuse my opinion with me defending the cops here. Im not, they could have acted with a LOT more sensitivity and overall common sense. But to try and portray Gates as blameless here is quite frankly ridiculous.

Posted by TheGame:

Dude, what are you talking about, probably cause? They were responding to a suspected robbery and obviously required to see some ID from the man purporting to be the owner of the house.

And noone, but noone is defending Gates and saying he simply "asked" the officer for his badge number. Yes, the cop should have given it to him, but dont think for one second that Gates was all innocent here. He wasnt just asking! He was yelling, screaming, throwing around racist accusations, demanding to be treated differently because of his stature ("do you know who I am!?"). nd why should the cops leave, just as the situation is escalating? ANy police officer worth their salt would be trying to calm down the situation, but Gates refused to be calm, HE escalated it further and guess what? He got booked. If I behaved like that, I would put my hands up and accept blame. Instead, Gates is calling this racist and that makes him a dumbass in my books. He cirtainly didnt further the fight against racism with his actions.

Nobody comes out of this with any credit, but the cops were well within their legal rights to detain Gates. Please dont confuse my opinion with me defending the cops here. Im not, they could have acted with a LOT more sensitivity and overall common sense. But to try and portray Gates as blameless here is quite frankly ridiculous.

I mentioned probable cause because that is the reason they did not enter his house, not that they needed probable cause to be there. I am not suggesting that Gates is blameless. However, no American should be arrested for expressing their opinion. Since when does an officer has a right to put you in jail because he did not like the way you were expressing your opinion about the officer's investigation of an crime that the officer had already determined did not occur. That is the point here. These officers already knew that this was Gates house. So their investigation was over. I am on my property. I can shout to high heaven that the police need to leave my property and if I demand to get a name and badge they better give it to me or else just get off my property. I cannot be arrested for telling an officer that he no longer has reason to be on my property, whether I say it nicely or shout it. As long as I am not using profanity, then the officer has no right to arrest me. You clearly have never been accousted by the police or else you would not be saying the stuff you are saying.