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Guys I'm Officially Done With Nate
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KnicksSince88
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2/12/2009  3:05 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by KnicksSince88:
Posted by martin:
Posted by KnicksSince88:

Martin, if his first game was an anomaly (and to some degree it was, he wont average 33, 15, 9 and 5), its interesting that that anomaly, in his first crack at it this year in a starting role, was better than Duhon has ever displayed the ability to play at any level, even Duke. What are the odds of that?

i was just thinking about what both Duhon and Nate accomplished in college and remembered one of the players won a national championship as a starting PG and one didn't, but you keep bringing up an empty stat line against a 13-40 team in a game that was a loss, cause that brings the heat in a debate.

National championships? Cmon now, thats silly. Want to take a look at the supporting casts? Want to compare Duke to Washington? Lets go kidnap Mateen Cleaves from Greece and bring him here. And empty statline against the clippers? Duhon has played the clips countless times before. Hes played plenty of games in the nba against bad teams, he never had a night like last night, hes simply not capable of it

[Edited by - knickssince88 on 02-12-2009 2:55 PM]

Dude, it's about as silly as you wanting to compare Nate's statline with anything Duhon did in college. Duh.

The only reason i brought up college was to accentuate the point that duhon is simply not capable of having a game like nate had last night. He wasn't even capable of doing that at duke. Maybe he had a game like that in high school. Maybe
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Paladin55
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2/12/2009  3:06 PM
Perhaps yesterday's game was an anomaly for Nate, but what keeps him from playing like that more often? I see a game like yesterday and wonder why he continues to have those games where he is out of control and not looking to pass. I don't think Nate is unintelligent, and he has great physical ability- there is no reason why he can't be a good assist man in this league.

Duhon lacks the ability of Nate, but understands his job, and usually plays under control. He has been much better than I expected him to be, and people who are critical of him don't appreciate or recognize his consistency as a player in the MDA system. His best day is not the equal of Nate's, but it would seem to me that he is a more consistent performer than Nate can be in this system

I still believe, however, that contract issues aside, Nate can be one of the guys you want to keep after 2010 if he can work on the consistency issue.



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NYKBocker
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2/12/2009  3:08 PM
I think people hating on Duhon can't get past the fact that Duhon was a bench player in his previous stint. Martin is right, Duhon has made other people better. DLee and The Mayor are both doing really well this year.

You guys rag on Duhon only using the pick-and-roll play. What is wrong with that? That is fundamental basketball.

I honestly don't see the hate towards Duhon. By the way, Crawford and ZBo also looked really good with Duhon feeding them the ball and they did not play pick-and-roll with them.
KnicksSince88
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2/12/2009  3:08 PM
Keep in mind also with Duhon that hes shooting the ball well over his head this year. Guy is a 39% career shooter in the league. 39% shooters don't jump to 43-44% overnight. Just doesn't happen. What that tells me is that there is a long shooting slump coming up for Duhon, because hes due. We are already starting to see it with him shooting 35% from the floor over the last 5
KnicksSince88
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2/12/2009  3:11 PM
Ill ask again until i get an answer

If Duhon is making people better why does the offense fare better when hes not on the floor

Effective FG% is nearly 5% higher with him out of the game, and the team is scoring more per 100 possessions with him sitting on the bench

[Edited by - knickssince88 on 02-12-2009 3:12 PM]
martin
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2/12/2009  3:15 PM
Posted by KnicksSince88:

What is the explanation for the offense doing better when Duhon is off the floor than on the floor, if hes so valuable to making bad players better. Roland ratings from 82games.com are pretty pointless to compare players on different teams, but can tell you a lot when comparing guys on the same roster. Nate has been far far more important to the Knicks this year than Duhon. His impact on the Knicks this year has been far more positive than that of Duhons. I think he would be a better PG over 82 games than Duhon, although that is not saying much, and i dont even think nate is a pg

We just have a different view of Duhon. I view him as anywhere inbetween the 21st and 30th best starting PG in the league, and think there are backups on some teams who could outproduce him if given 40 minutes a night under D'Antoni

Stats can be misleading. Gallo has the best +/- on the team. Is HE the team MVP?

Duhon has played the most minutes on the team by FAR - mostly, and this is my guess, cause MDA thinks that all of the other guards on the team can't do squat at the PG position and don't know how to run the offense .

Duhon averages 39 minutes a game. Out of 48, that's a small sample size to say that the offense runs better when Duhon is not on the floor. Also, Duhon constantly plays against other team starters, ie better defenders, and the only time MDA feels he can rest his starting PG is when the reserves are going well or when the Knicks are up enough.
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KnicksSince88
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2/12/2009  3:17 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by KnicksSince88:

What is the explanation for the offense doing better when Duhon is off the floor than on the floor, if hes so valuable to making bad players better. Roland ratings from 82games.com are pretty pointless to compare players on different teams, but can tell you a lot when comparing guys on the same roster. Nate has been far far more important to the Knicks this year than Duhon. His impact on the Knicks this year has been far more positive than that of Duhons. I think he would be a better PG over 82 games than Duhon, although that is not saying much, and i dont even think nate is a pg

We just have a different view of Duhon. I view him as anywhere inbetween the 21st and 30th best starting PG in the league, and think there are backups on some teams who could outproduce him if given 40 minutes a night under D'Antoni

Stats can be misleading. Gallo has the best +/- on the team. Is HE the team MVP?

Duhon has played the most minutes on the team by FAR - mostly, and this is my guess, cause MDA thinks that all of the other guards on the team can't do squat at the PG position and don't know how to run the offense .

Duhon averages 39 minutes a game. Out of 48, that's a small sample size to say that the offense runs better when Duhon is not on the floor. Also, Duhon constantly plays against other team starters, ie better defenders, and the only time MDA feels he can rest his starting PG is when the reserves are going well or when the Knicks are up enough.

Small sample size is true to a degree. Although hes been off the floor for 477 minutes this season. Roughly the equivalent of 10 games. Not a large sample size, also not small enough to sneeze at. They've played the equivalent of 10 games without Duhon and the offense has fared far better with him not in the game. Im not talking about +/-, im talking about team offensive points per 100 possessions, effective FG%, all higher, and by a decent degree, in the 10 games without Duhon on the floor. If he was such an important cog that elevates the play of those around him, that would not be the case
fishmike
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2/12/2009  3:23 PM
Nate can blow by most defenders with the dribble and starting from a standstill. When Nate can really nail that pullup 12-15 footer than made Allan Houston so nasty Nate will be a star player.

Last night's game aside I think the Knicks should more Duhon, who's value is higher than it will ever be. Play Nate at PG rest of the year and look to resign him. Trading Lee and Duhon would be hard for Knick fans to stomach but your selling HIGH and could really get some bigtime prospects or high lottery picks back.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
martin
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2/12/2009  3:27 PM
Posted by KnicksSince88:
Posted by martin:
Posted by KnicksSince88:

What is the explanation for the offense doing better when Duhon is off the floor than on the floor, if hes so valuable to making bad players better. Roland ratings from 82games.com are pretty pointless to compare players on different teams, but can tell you a lot when comparing guys on the same roster. Nate has been far far more important to the Knicks this year than Duhon. His impact on the Knicks this year has been far more positive than that of Duhons. I think he would be a better PG over 82 games than Duhon, although that is not saying much, and i dont even think nate is a pg

We just have a different view of Duhon. I view him as anywhere inbetween the 21st and 30th best starting PG in the league, and think there are backups on some teams who could outproduce him if given 40 minutes a night under D'Antoni

Stats can be misleading. Gallo has the best +/- on the team. Is HE the team MVP?

Duhon has played the most minutes on the team by FAR - mostly, and this is my guess, cause MDA thinks that all of the other guards on the team can't do squat at the PG position and don't know how to run the offense .

Duhon averages 39 minutes a game. Out of 48, that's a small sample size to say that the offense runs better when Duhon is not on the floor. Also, Duhon constantly plays against other team starters, ie better defenders, and the only time MDA feels he can rest his starting PG is when the reserves are going well or when the Knicks are up enough.

Small sample size is true to a degree. Although hes been off the floor for 477 minutes this season. Roughly the equivalent of 10 games. Not a large sample size, also not small enough to sneeze at. They've played the equivalent of 10 games without Duhon and the offense has fared far better with him not in the game. Im not talking about +/-, im talking about team offensive points per 100 possessions, effective FG%, all higher, and by a decent degree, in the 10 games without Duhon on the floor. If he was such an important cog that elevates the play of those around him, that would not be the case

it's your 10 games to the other 40. You are looking at a sample size of about 20%, which IS misleading, isn't it? You add to this that the knicks' record is 20-30, meaning that on average they have either been outscored OR out defensed, and you tilt the offensive output stats towards my side of the argument (for arguments sake, if the knicks were 25-25 then maybe we could gather that things would even out).

ALSO, more at a realistic level, if the coach saw that the offense was movin and groovin at a better pace than when Duhon was on the floor, don't you think that they would keep Duhon OFF the floor. The dude as been playing hurt all season, you would think they would want to rest him... but he has been to integral to the team to do that.
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martin
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2/12/2009  3:28 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Nate can blow by most defenders with the dribble and starting from a standstill. When Nate can really nail that pullup 12-15 footer than made Allan Houston so nasty Nate will be a star player.

Last night's game aside I think the Knicks should more Duhon, who's value is higher than it will ever be. Play Nate at PG rest of the year and look to resign him. Trading Lee and Duhon would be hard for Knick fans to stomach but your selling HIGH and could really get some bigtime prospects or high lottery picks back.

I kinda agree. What do folks think of Bayless, Aldridge, Outlaw for Lee, Duhon, Rose?
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KnicksSince88
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2/12/2009  3:32 PM
Martin, that sample size, though not large, is big enough to where if a guy was truly making a difference we would feel the impact of him not being in the game. Take a difference maker off a basketball team for 10 games and they would feel his loss, they wouldn't improve. We just disagree on the player. Hes putting up a 13 efficiency rating this year. Hes a below average NBA starting PG. His modest numbers are a product of an absurd amount of minutes in a very PG friendly offense playing a fast pace

There are backups on NBA rosters throughout the league who can do what duhon is doing here. There is a backup on our own roster who's not even a real PG who just played better than Duhon is ever pshycially capable of playing in his first crack at it

[Edited by - knickssince88 on 02-12-2009 3:33 PM]

[Edited by - knickssince88 on 02-12-2009 3:34 PM]
BRIGGS
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2/12/2009  3:34 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Nate can blow by most defenders with the dribble and starting from a standstill. When Nate can really nail that pullup 12-15 footer than made Allan Houston so nasty Nate will be a star player.

Last night's game aside I think the Knicks should more Duhon, who's value is higher than it will ever be. Play Nate at PG rest of the year and look to resign him. Trading Lee and Duhon would be hard for Knick fans to stomach but your selling HIGH and could really get some bigtime prospects or high lottery picks back.

I agree with you 100% if I could get back Aldridge but I dont think Portland would do it. I will NOT trade Lee for anything less than a really terrific package. On the other hadn sell Duhon high--he will have to be renounced most likely anyway and then we wont have the loot to resign him. Sell high on Duhon
RIP Crushalot😞
KnicksSince88
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2/12/2009  3:36 PM
I dont think Duhon has any trade value. How many teams is he going to step into and IMPROVE their PG situation. 3/4 of the league has either a better starting PG than Duhon, or a young PG with far more upside than Duhon who won't have their growth stunted for someone remarkably average. In essence the market for him would only really consist of teams looking for backups or teams who had a season ending injury at the position. These teams didn't fall over themselves to add him this offseason and his 13 PER rating isn't doing anything to raise his value. These teams are well aware of the things that go into him being able to put up the modest numbers hes putting up this year

[Edited by - knickssince88 on 02-12-2009 4:31 PM]
EwingsGlass
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2/12/2009  4:52 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by fishmike:

Nate can blow by most defenders with the dribble and starting from a standstill. When Nate can really nail that pullup 12-15 footer than made Allan Houston so nasty Nate will be a star player.

Last night's game aside I think the Knicks should more Duhon, who's value is higher than it will ever be. Play Nate at PG rest of the year and look to resign him. Trading Lee and Duhon would be hard for Knick fans to stomach but your selling HIGH and could really get some bigtime prospects or high lottery picks back.

I kinda agree. What do folks think of Bayless, Aldridge, Outlaw for Lee, Duhon, Rose?

Sign me up. Means we will need to clear more capspace in 2010, but those guys are a good young core. I don't think Portland gives up both Aldridge and Bayless, especially in a package centered around guy who they can't negiatiate with till after the season...
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2/12/2009  8:17 PM
Meanwhile, back in the states...

Just as Nate comes off the most spectacular, unselfish and composed game of his professional career


he is now rehearsing more funky dunks for All Star Saturday night

The show must go on



once a knick always a knick
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2/12/2009  10:11 PM
Out of everything I have seen in the last few years--the most exciting play was last night with Nate Robinson at PG. I really do hope they give him a 3-5 game chance to prove he can do it for more than 1 game. I don't see how they don't. We could really luck out here.
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2/13/2009  6:33 AM
I've told people for years that Nate will never be a reliable starter because of his height disadvantage and the most you can hope for is a spark off the bench. I was told I was an idiot for years and how incredible a pick it was that Isiah got a stud like Nate at #21 -- yet it's obvious and been obvious that he's a role player at best. Nate is a very good talent, but he will always be haunted by being a midget in a giant's game. Now, finally people are coming around. Better late than never, I suppose.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
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2/13/2009  9:06 AM
Posted by KnicksSince88:

I dont think Duhon has any trade value. How many teams is he going to step into and IMPROVE their PG situation. 3/4 of the league has either a better starting PG than Duhon, or a young PG with far more upside than Duhon who won't have their growth stunted for someone remarkably average. In essence the market for him would only really consist of teams looking for backups or teams who had a season ending injury at the position. These teams didn't fall over themselves to add him this offseason and his 13 PER rating isn't doing anything to raise his value. These teams are well aware of the things that go into him being able to put up the modest numbers hes putting up this year

[Edited by - knickssince88 on 02-12-2009 4:31 PM]
26 years old, cap friendly contract, 12.5 points 8 asists, 40% from down town, good rebounder, good defender takes good shots, heady player and a leader.

Yea.. who would want a player like that???

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Martice
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2/13/2009  12:04 PM
Well, in short it appears that Nate has some strengths that some players of any size wish they had. He also has some short comings (pun intended) that limits his game. There are only a few players in the league that have the perfect mixture of talent, skill and athleticism that overcome most of their weaknesses.

I remember Kobe Bryant was considered a ball hog and a distraction to his team with his reported selfish attitude. He also took bad shots but he had a coach, supporting cast, including a hall of fame center to provide him the time and leadership to figure it all out. You guys remember the story lines.

Now I'm not saying that Nate and Kobe are on the same level of play but they both have some things in common like Fearlessness, incredible physical ability, energy and high sense of competition.

As one of the commentators recently said " I would rather coach a players energy level down than have to coach it up".

The things that piss people off about Nate's game can be coached up and we all should remember that even Nate had to endure the coaching atmosphere provided by Coach Zeke. I would like to know if anyone can tell me what our overall team philosophy was with Zeke as our coach?

This is a new system and a new coach to everyone except the guys who are new to the team this year. In addition, almost all of the players who played here last year and are seeing playing time, all have taken steps forward in regards to their development.

This being a contract year for Nate makes things kind of tricky but I really think that although he may struggle on the defensive end as teams continuously run him into vicious picks, he remains our only player who is expected to play aggressively on D usually with the opposing teams fastest players, rebound,score and distribute the rock at the right time.

Now think of how many people in the league are relied upon to provide their team all of the above and when you do, tell me their names.

In short, I think Nate needs a little more time to develop and he will be one of the most unique weapons in the league.

Peace.
misterearl
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2/13/2009  1:01 PM
POD

"This being a contract year for Nate makes things kind of tricky but I really think that although he may struggle on the defensive end as teams continuously run him into vicious picks, he remains our only player who is expected to play aggressively on D usually with the opposing teams fastest players, rebound, score and distribute the rock at the right time."

If Nate can be partnered with a 6'8 guard to provide some evil intent on defense, perhaps those vicious picks won't hurt as bad.


"Now think of how many people in the league are relied upon to provide their team all of the above and when you do, tell me their names."

SFX; crickets (Manu Ginobili?)

In short, I think Nate needs a little more time to develop and he will be one of the most unique weapons in the league."

Martice - did I mention that you rock?

once a knick always a knick
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