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Boston Globe: D'Antoni Accepts Knicks Offer
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crzymdups
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5/10/2008  9:48 PM
Posted by MS:

Are you guys ****ing kidding me. We get Zach last year and a majority of people are jumping for joy. Now we actually do something important to the future of the team and everyone is pretending they actually know what they are talking about.

First off Isiah isn't a part of the system. We don't have a scum bag in the front office creating the most unproffessional unit in the NBA. We have Donnie Walsh one of the 5 best GMS in the NBA. Last year we had the worst. We add D'Antoni one the best 5 coaches in the NBA. Isiah was one of the worst game managers, preperations, and he lost the lockeroom.

We haven't started the season and already made two great hires. It doesn't happen over night, we don't have a GM that is looking to be the man and embarrass a HOF coach. Lenny wasn't given a chance to succeed, niether was Larry who wanted the whole roster gone. The culture is already changing, we have a coach that players want to play for everyone forgets the Suns lost Amare and this guy made Tim Thomas look like an AllStar and got his team to the Playoffs, it's not his fault the suns were cheap sold away their picks and have no depth. They played they first round series without grant hill.

He will define players roles, he has management, and Walsh will make a few moves that will help him operate. Restore value in our players and actually give them hope. Let's see how it unfolds before the negativity starts.

We still have the draft, chances are the knicks don't win it, but things are looking good so far.

this is a fair post. but you can't blame people for approaching anything this team does with skepticism and doubt at this point. the more i think about D'Antoni here and how relatively easy it will be to get a PG (pray for Rose, decent shot at Bayless, trade for Ford, etc), I am guardedly optimistic. But still, it does contradict Walsh's originally saying he would look to protect the cap room in 2010 at first blush. We got a lot of contradictions from Isiah and it added up to there being no plan in place. I'm hoping Walsh is different, but to me this is not a good sign. I would be pleased as punch to be wrong.
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SlimPack
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5/10/2008  10:12 PM
I guess I'm in the wait and see category with BRIGGS.

I'm not convinced that run and gun can't win in the playoffs though. Didn't the showtime Lakers win with a philosophy like that?
codeunknown
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5/10/2008  10:18 PM
Posted by crzymdups:

But still, it does contradict Walsh's originally saying he would look to protect the cap room in 2010 at first blush.

How exactly?
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oohah
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5/10/2008  10:22 PM
Posted by SlimPack:

I guess I'm in the wait and see category with BRIGGS.

I'm not convinced that run and gun can't win in the playoffs though. Didn't the showtime Lakers win with a philosophy like that?

The Showtime Lakers were a magnificent running team, but they played half-court as well or better than anybody. They had Kareem who was automatic in the post until his last 1-2 years, and Magic Johnson was great at finding their spot-up shooters like Scott and Nixon, as well as posting up and abusing other guards, while passing out of the post.

They were absolutely not a one-dimensional running team like the Suns, and I am not sure that such a team has won the NBA championship in the past 50 years.

***

Doesn't anyone wonder why Phoenix would give up on D'Antoni after all his success in the regular season?

oohah



Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
crzymdups
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5/10/2008  10:23 PM
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by crzymdups:

But still, it does contradict Walsh's originally saying he would look to protect the cap room in 2010 at first blush.

How exactly?

Well, as mister earl and I discussed in another thread: D'Antoni's rep is on the hook now. League-wide perception will be: he took the money, can he clean up the Knicks. The pressure will be on immediately, both via NY media and the league at large. Will D'Antoni be able to lose with a smile and wait for cap room to save the day? Or will he, say, want to trade for TJ Ford (4yrs $40 remaining on his deal) to get a PG in place immediately? It's an unknown, but the idea that D'Antoni will sit around and lose and pray for Bron seems a little far-fetched. Also, his deal runs longer than Walsh's, he's getting more money aka his juice card is bigger. So. Cap room seems to be a far-fetched hope.
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Solace
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5/10/2008  10:27 PM
Posted by VDesai:

I have not had a chance chime on D'Antoni yet, but a couple of thoughts about him and the defense criticism

1) The Suns ranked 4th in the NBA in pace last year. What that means is that, on offense and defense, the Suns had the 4th most possessions in the league last year. When you regularly play at that heavy a pace, you're going to see more points scored on both ends than the rest of the league.

2) Even with the faster pace, the Suns ranked no.1 in the NBA in offensive efficiency, or points scored per 100 possessions. So they were the best team in the NBA in terms of scoring efficiency, not just one of the best teams in terms of volume scoring. By contrast, other fast paced scoring teams like Denver and Golden State averaged 3-4 pts below Phoenix in this mark.

3) The Suns ranked 16th in the league in defensive efficiency. So they were 16th in terms of points allowed per 100 possessions. By contrast the Knicks were 29th and gave up 5 more pts per 100. So the Suns were a full tier above the Knicks in defense. And further, the Suns ranked 9th in league in effective FG% allowed (effective FG=(FGM+3PM/2)/FGA)). The cause for the disparity was that the Suns were one of the bottom 5 teams in creating turnovers (ranked closely with the Knicks).

But I think my conclusion is that you can't say this was a coach or a team that was de-emphasizing defense if they could rank top 10 in eFG allowed. It was a team that wasn't great on defense- but considering some of the individual defenders in their lineup like Nash, Amare (a much improved defensive player in recent seasons, though not a stalwart) and Shaq (too slow) you're not gonna be outstanding. Nash in particular cannot defend quick PG's (as demonstrated again in the playoffs), but he makes such a big difference on the offensive end that you can't really play him less minutes for defense.

4) Mike D'Antoni is one of the select few coaches in the NBA that has really demonstrated a vision. He created a system, had the players to fit it, and was very successful because they were playing a way that nobody in the NBA was playing at the time. The ability to see the big picture and go against the grain is something that is extremely valuable in a coach.

That he'll coach the Knicks the same way that he coached the Suns is not a given. But if he does choose to, I am extremely confident that the Walsh and D'Antoni will find the players who can run this system effectively. The Knicks do have several players on the roster that can thrive in an uptempo game (the ones we like), and several players who cannot (namely Zach, Curry, Marbury or the ones we don't).

If the Knicks were to play a faster pace, they'd be on of a handful of teams in the Eastern Conference to do so, and going against the grain could give them the advantage they need to be a playoff team in this conference. Will it ultimately win them the championship? It might be harder to thrive like that in the West where the playoff teams are a deeper and you have to face a team like the Spurs in the first round. A team that could legitimately play up tempo in the East I would suspect would go a lot farther.

Great post. I had posted similar in other threads, but the topic was continually avoided. I guess people like having their misconceptions about a winning coach.

The Walsh move I was kind of 'eh' on (meaning not overly positive or negative), mostly because I wasn't fully sure where it was going. However, bringing in a coach with D'Antoni's reputation for winning can only help. This is a great move. For the people who are knocking it, I don't know what to say. Every situation doesn't have a single right answer. I think there's a variety of potential 'good' moves. When I've criticized this team and Knicks management in the past, it was because we avoided all potential good moves and took ones that didn't make sense. Bringing in a winner of a coach to a team of losers makes a lot of sense. It's really the first big step in changing the mentality of this team.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
Ira
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5/10/2008  10:28 PM
Okay. Let's grant that D'Antoni isn't a good coach for many of the players. But those players who won't fit into D'Antoni's scheme are the ones most of us want to get rid of anyone. Getting a new coach who will fit Marbury's abilities (for example) is ridiculous.
crzymdups
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5/10/2008  10:34 PM
Posted by Ira:

Okay. Let's grant that D'Antoni isn't a good coach for many of the players. But those players who won't fit into D'Antoni's scheme are the ones most of us want to get rid of anyone. Getting a new coach who will fit Marbury's abilities (for example) is ridiculous.

doesn't everyone agree Marbury will never play another game for the knicks again? or at least hope that's so?

i don't think people who are disappointed in the d'antoni hire care about the fit of the current players, it's the seeming quick fix to rebuilding.

my feeling on run and gun is it's always just a code word for saying you don't have really talented big men and can't play in the halfcourt and have no chance of winning it all. i'm skeptical of how far d'antoni can get with his style because it did seem he had the near perfect team in phoenix and didn't do it. i'm more disappointed in the hire though, because it's another attempt at a fly-by-night rebuild. maybe this one makes more sense, it certainly looks better than the Brown/Isiah combo, but it still feels like a fly-by-night type deal.
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5/10/2008  10:34 PM
Posted by oohah:
Posted by SlimPack:

I guess I'm in the wait and see category with BRIGGS.

I'm not convinced that run and gun can't win in the playoffs though. Didn't the showtime Lakers win with a philosophy like that?

The Showtime Lakers were a magnificent running team, but they played half-court as well or better than anybody. They had Kareem who was automatic in the post until his last 1-2 years, and Magic Johnson was great at finding their spot-up shooters like Scott and Nixon, as well as posting up and abusing other guards, while passing out of the post.

They were absolutely not a one-dimensional running team like the Suns, and I am not sure that such a team has won the NBA championship in the past 50 years.

***

Doesn't anyone wonder why Phoenix would give up on D'Antoni after all his success in the regular season?

oohah

Not only that but the fans wanted him out too.

I guess nobody sees his greatness in Phoenix.
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crzymdups
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5/10/2008  10:40 PM
Posted by GKFv2:
Posted by oohah:
Posted by SlimPack:

I guess I'm in the wait and see category with BRIGGS.

I'm not convinced that run and gun can't win in the playoffs though. Didn't the showtime Lakers win with a philosophy like that?

The Showtime Lakers were a magnificent running team, but they played half-court as well or better than anybody. They had Kareem who was automatic in the post until his last 1-2 years, and Magic Johnson was great at finding their spot-up shooters like Scott and Nixon, as well as posting up and abusing other guards, while passing out of the post.

They were absolutely not a one-dimensional running team like the Suns, and I am not sure that such a team has won the NBA championship in the past 50 years.

***

Doesn't anyone wonder why Phoenix would give up on D'Antoni after all his success in the regular season?

oohah

Not only that but the fans wanted him out too.

I guess nobody sees his greatness in Phoenix.

other than the main reasons for not wanting him here - he's really annoying to watch coach a game. he bitches about every foul call and just whines constantly. i could see that schtick getting old with fans and ownership alike.
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5/10/2008  10:57 PM
The only important consideration for a Knicks coach is how he's gonna look getting frog-marched out of the garden by security guards.

D'Antoni seems like a proud man. I think it would be a lot of fun watching him get the Chaney treatment.

.... ""

[Edited by - basketballjones on 05-10-2008 22:58]
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SlimPack
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5/10/2008  11:24 PM
Posted by oohah:
Posted by SlimPack:

I guess I'm in the wait and see category with BRIGGS.

I'm not convinced that run and gun can't win in the playoffs though. Didn't the showtime Lakers win with a philosophy like that?

The Showtime Lakers were a magnificent running team, but they played half-court as well or better than anybody. They had Kareem who was automatic in the post until his last 1-2 years, and Magic Johnson was great at finding their spot-up shooters like Scott and Nixon, as well as posting up and abusing other guards, while passing out of the post.

They were absolutely not a one-dimensional running team like the Suns, and I am not sure that such a team has won the NBA championship in the past 50 years.

***

Doesn't anyone wonder why Phoenix would give up on D'Antoni after all his success in the regular season?

oohah

Man, I meant to respond a lot earlier but I got side tracked watching T.V. Yeah you're right the Suns and old Lakers aren't all that similar.
codeunknown
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5/11/2008  12:01 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by crzymdups:

But still, it does contradict Walsh's originally saying he would look to protect the cap room in 2010 at first blush.

How exactly?

Well, as mister earl and I discussed in another thread: D'Antoni's rep is on the hook now. League-wide perception will be: he took the money, can he clean up the Knicks. The pressure will be on immediately, both via NY media and the league at large. Will D'Antoni be able to lose with a smile and wait for cap room to save the day? Or will he, say, want to trade for TJ Ford (4yrs $40 remaining on his deal) to get a PG in place immediately? It's an unknown, but the idea that D'Antoni will sit around and lose and pray for Bron seems a little far-fetched. Also, his deal runs longer than Walsh's, he's getting more money aka his juice card is bigger. So. Cap room seems to be a far-fetched hope.

So you're saying that D'Antoni, who likely realizes that this 20-odd win team won't win in the long run with stop-gap moves, will nonetheless strong-arm Walsh into making bad trades to maintain his reputation? And, moreover, Walsh was oblivious of this complication as he proceeded to extend him an offer of 24 million dollars?
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5/11/2008  12:02 AM
Those Lakers teams and that era were very different. Most teams played a high octane style. If you guys recall Denver was a big time scoring team. Sixers, Celtic had very effective fast breaking teams but one thing they always had was a post threat. Lakers had Kareem and later Worthy. Sixers had Dawkins and later won with Moses. Denver had no post game. You need a post game to win there is no doubt.

I KNow that a lot of people are down on Curry and Randloph and I do agree that one has to go. I prefer Zach go and get a defensive high flyer type PF. Since Curry will be running more he will lose weight playing if he doesn't foul out by the first quarter.
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5/11/2008  12:59 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/11/sports/basketball/11knicks.html?_r=1&ref=sports&oref=slogin
D’Antoni Accepts Offer to Coach Knicks

By HOWARD BECK
Published: May 11, 2008

Mike D’Antoni likes his basketball to be fast and furious, entertaining and effective — in essence, everything the Knicks are not. In the most counterintuitive move of the year, D’Antoni agreed Saturday to become their new coach.

Donnie Walsh, the Knicks’ president, concluded a methodical three-week search by landing perhaps the best coach on the market, selecting D’Antoni, the celebrated Phoenix Suns coach, out of a field that included Avery Johnson, Rick Carlisle and Mark Jackson.

Neither D’Antoni nor Walsh were available for comment. The Knicks, in response to widespread news reports, confirmed Saturday evening that D’Antoni had “agreed in principle” to become their coach. The 57-year-old D’Antoni is expected in New York on Sunday to sign a four-year deal worth $24 million. Contract details were still being worked out, and a news conference was not expected until Tuesday at the earliest.

D’Antoni and the Suns agreed to terminate the final two years of his contract in Phoenix with no obligations. Under the terms of that agreement, the Knicks will not have to provide the Suns with compensation.

At a glance, the marriage of D’Antoni — an offensive innovator with a fondness for up-tempo basketball — and the badly constructed roster of the Knicks seems problematic. But D’Antoni, who helped transform the Suns into a Western Conference power, is known to like a challenge.

A former associate of D’Antoni’s referred to him “the world’s greatest contrarian,” a view that makes his decision to join the Knicks a little more sensible.
“Mike’s looking forward to the challenge, and he feels he has the right resources to take it on,” D’Antoni’s agent, Warren LeGarie, said.


The Knicks have not had a winning record since 2001 and have not won a playoff series since 2000, despite a payroll that is annually among the league’s highest. They have cycled through five head coaches and dozens of players in the last four years.

The Knicks won just 23 games this season, leading to the eventual removal of Isiah Thomas as the team’s president and coach. The rebuilding plan is not clear, but Walsh’s first major move was a striking one.

D’Antoni, the 2005 coach of the year, has been one of the league’s most successful coaches over the last four seasons. The Suns averaged 58 wins in D’Antoni’s four full seasons and made the Western Conference finals in 2005 and 2006. They were one of four teams — along with Detroit, San Antonio and Dallas — to win at least 50 games in each of the last four years.

D’Antoni’s run-and-gun offense, a throwback to the 1980s, helped reinvigorate the N.B.A. after years of plodding, slow-down basketball.

The Knicks do not have the point guard, the athletes or the wealth of shooters that made D’Antoni’s frenetic offense hum in Phoenix. But Walsh was already expected to make substantial changes to the roster in the next two years. With D’Antoni on board, substantial may give way to radical.

Under D’Antoni, the Suns’ goal was to shoot in seven seconds or less, before defenses had a chance to set up. Transition 3-pointers were encouraged, and every open shot was deemed to be a good one. D’Antoni designed the offense, but point guard Steve Nash made it sizzle.

The Knicks’ incumbent point guard is Stephon Marbury, who was traded by the Suns a month after D’Antoni became their coach. Marbury, whose contract expires in 2009, did not figure to be in the Knicks’ long-term plans, regardless of who was hired.

A handful of Knicks, notably guards Jamal Crawford and Nate Robinson and forwards David Lee and Wilson Chandler, may flourish in D’Antoni’s free-wheeling system. Quentin Richardson had perhaps his best professional season playing for the Suns in 2004-5, although he has since been slowed by injuries. The Knicks’ two lumbering big men, Zach Randolph and Eddy Curry, are probably a poor fit in D’Antoni’s offense, but Walsh already seemed intent on trading at least one of them.

It is likely that D’Antoni and Walsh discussed a vision for overhauling the roster before striking the agreement. Walsh has said he wants the Knicks to be competitive immediately, although the rebuilding process is likely to be messy for a year or two.

It is in 2010 that D’Antoni may be most valuable. Walsh wants the Knicks to be under the salary cap by that summer, when LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh will be free agents. Having D’Antoni, a player-friendly coach with an easy-going demeanor and an offense that players love, can only help the recruiting process.


D’Antoni became available after Phoenix lost its opening playoff series to the San Antonio Spurs — the Suns’ only first-round exit on D’Antoni’s watch. Tensions had been simmering between D’Antoni and the front office, specifically the new general manager, Steve Kerr. D’Antoni reportedly has been resistant to Kerr’s suggestions and to placing more of an emphasis on defense.

The Suns granted D’Antoni permission last week to interview with the Knicks and the Chicago Bulls. D’Antoni reportedly met with Jerry Reinsdorf, the Bulls’ chairman, on Friday in Phoenix and discussed the outlines of a deal.

The Bulls have more talent and seemed to be a better fit, but they were not willing to match the Knicks’ offer. At $6 million a season, D’Antoni will be the third-highest-paid coach in the league, behind the Los Angeles Lakers’ Phil Jackson ($12 million) and the Spurs’ Gregg Popovich ($7 million).

It remains to be seen whether Walsh will ask D’Antoni to bend his style or make defense a higher priority. But D’Antoni showed his flexibility in February, when he pushed for the trade that brought Shaquille O’Neal to Phoenix and effectively ended the seven-seconds-or-less era.

His greatest adjustment is yet to come.

Some of this article is reassuring. It feels better to think that Walsh was the driving force behind this decision and that both he and D'Antoni discussed the roster beforehand. I still don't think it's the best move at all, but it should be an interesting summer, to say the least.
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codeunknown
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5/11/2008  1:38 AM
Posted by crzymdups:


It feels better to think that Walsh was the driving force behind this decision and that both he and D'Antoni discussed the roster beforehand.


Why is this so surprising? When is it appropriate to hire a coach without discussing the roster?
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crzymdups
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5/11/2008  1:49 AM
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by crzymdups:


It feels better to think that Walsh was the driving force behind this decision and that both he and D'Antoni discussed the roster beforehand.


Why is this so surprising? When is it appropriate to hire a coach without discussing the roster?

uh... you do remember the Isiah era? do you honestly think Brown and Dolan/Isiah ever discussed the roster before he was hired? it's just somewhat reassuring to know we have an actual basketball man in charge instead of a two-face swindler.
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5/11/2008  1:50 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by crzymdups:


It feels better to think that Walsh was the driving force behind this decision and that both he and D'Antoni discussed the roster beforehand.


Why is this so surprising? When is it appropriate to hire a coach without discussing the roster?

uh... you do remember the Isiah era? do you honestly think Brown and Dolan/Isiah ever discussed the roster before he was hired? it's just somewhat reassuring to know we have an actual basketball man in charge instead of a two-face swindler.

Heh. Sadly, this is true and a good point.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
codeunknown
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5/11/2008  2:01 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by crzymdups:


It feels better to think that Walsh was the driving force behind this decision and that both he and D'Antoni discussed the roster beforehand.


Why is this so surprising? When is it appropriate to hire a coach without discussing the roster?

uh... you do remember the Isiah era? do you honestly think Brown and Dolan/Isiah ever discussed the roster before he was hired? it's just somewhat reassuring to know we have an actual basketball man in charge instead of a two-face swindler.


That the Isiah rules can't be applied to everyone is the point I was making.
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5/11/2008  9:37 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by crzymdups:


It feels better to think that Walsh was the driving force behind this decision and that both he and D'Antoni discussed the roster beforehand.


Why is this so surprising? When is it appropriate to hire a coach without discussing the roster?

uh... you do remember the Isiah era? do you honestly think Brown and Dolan/Isiah ever discussed the roster before he was hired? it's just somewhat reassuring to know we have an actual basketball man in charge instead of a two-face swindler.

Which is why I dont understand why people here are still saying D'antoni is a bad fit for this roster. Walsh is an astute GM. He wouldn't blindly hire a coach or aquire players without assessing the situation. I'm sure there was forward thinking and Walsh/Dantoni have already outlined a plan and are ready to move forward. The stink of Isiah is still lingering on some of these posts, which is why you and others are stil pessimistic. I have faith in Walsh and D'antoni.
Boston Globe: D'Antoni Accepts Knicks Offer

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