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bigbeast
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12/21/2006  9:09 AM
Posted by misterearl:

>>I'm all for a new GM thats all about drafting and developing young players. Isiah retooled this team with veterans.

BigBeast - that is a lie. Plain and simple. you obviously ignore the ages of the players doing work over the past stretch.

Curry is 24, Frye and Lee are 22, Balkman is only 21. Mardy "Hitman" Collins is 21. Heck, Quentin is only 27.

dang, do you guys know how to think clearly?

Earl, reread my post, I hit the "Post new reply" before I finished typing I actually agree with you to an extent.

[Edited by - bigbeast on 12-21-2006 09:10 AM]
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
AUTOADVERT
misterearl
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12/21/2006  9:12 AM
BigBeast - okay, okay... I'm better now

whew, that was a close one (fanning face frantically)

I simply find it amazing that a person can love David Lee and hate the person who unexpectedly drafted him in the same breath.

curious
once a knick always a knick
oohah
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12/21/2006  9:12 AM
Posted by misterearl:

Like oohah sez

baby steps

Nah dude, that only applies when LB is coaching. Since these are Isiah's players, and we are so over the cap, the team must become legitimately good overnight.

And if they do manage to become good, that's not good enough, they must be great!

As long as we can declare Isiah a failure.

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 21-12-2006 09:22 AM]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
fishmike
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12/21/2006  9:40 AM
Posted by bigbeast:


I agree with most of what your saying. There is no defending some of the bad moves Isiah has made, but in terms of stockpiling young talent through the draft, who would you rather have than Isiah? I know most of you guys are fed up with him, but he's proven to be really good at evaluating young talent and drafting. It seems as if Isiah is done spending money on overpriced vets (Whether thats Dolans mandate or Isiah seeing the light is up for debate), and is content with building with his youth. If this is the case, there aren't that many candidates better suited to build this team with youth than Isiah.

[Edited by - bigbeast on 12-21-2006 09:08 AM]

[Edited by - bigbeast on 12-21-2006 09:24 AM]
well, this is why I was happy when Isiah was hired. I thought his good eye for evaluating talent was what we needed. And yes, he's drafted pretty good. The problem is trades and trading picks are part of evaluating talent. Vin Baker, Jerome James, Mo T, Francis, Marbury, Crawford, Eddy and what he gave up for them is part of evaluating talent

I am fed up with him because of that.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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12/21/2006  9:45 AM
Posted by oohah:
Posted by misterearl:

Like oohah sez

baby steps

Nah dude, that only applies when LB is coaching. Since these are Isiah's players, and we are so over the cap, the team must become legitimately good overnight.

And if they do manage to become good, that's not good enough, they must be great!

As long as we can declare Isiah a failure.

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 21-12-2006 09:22 AM]
ahh yes, thank god for the built in Larry excuse.

Sorry, but after filling the roster with expensive veteran talent, a 5th coach, 3 drafts, 3 years and like $500mm spent the time for baby steps is over.

Some guys are getting better, others are regressing.

oohah, we dont even come out and play hard everynight. I would be nice to talk about guy's skills progressing and cohesion, but we dont even show up every night.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bippity10
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12/21/2006  12:59 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Say what?

>>I've seen enough pis-s poor moves by this guy to not feel that he is the guy that should be building around the nice young talent he has brought in.

read that again

sounds like a contradiction to talk about nice young talent and pis-s poor moves in the same sentence

but that's just me

Sounds like a contradiction if you want it to be one but they are seperate issues. A person can bring in good young talent and make piss poor moves at the same time, no? I like DAvid lee, Balkman, Frye, Q etc. It's a solid young group. I didn't like Baker and JJ and Jalen and Stevie and TT and all the other guys he's brought in. I don't want to sit here and watch Isiah get 1 out of every 7 or 8 moves right as he tries to get more talent around the young guys. I'd rather have a GM that can build around by getting most of his moves right. Balancing the team and not targeting guys that are so obvious they don't fit that every fan is flabbergasted when they occur.

There is no right or wrong in this situation. We can all agree he has done a good job with the draft. But where we differ is that you have confidence he can do a good job building around these guys. I do not. I'd rather he focus on coaching and developing young guys and let someone else focus on building the team.
I just hope that people will like me
GodSaveTheKnicks
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12/21/2006  1:08 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by misterearl:

Say what?

>>I've seen enough pis-s poor moves by this guy to not feel that he is the guy that should be building around the nice young talent he has brought in.

read that again

sounds like a contradiction to talk about nice young talent and pis-s poor moves in the same sentence

but that's just me

Sounds like a contradiction if you want it to be one but they are seperate issues. A person can bring in good young talent and make piss poor moves at the same time, no? I like DAvid lee, Balkman, Frye, Q etc. It's a solid young group. I didn't like Baker and JJ and Jalen and Stevie and TT and all the other guys he's brought in. I don't want to sit here and watch Isiah get 1 out of every 7 or 8 moves right as he tries to get more talent around the young guys. I'd rather have a GM that can build around by getting most of his moves right. Balancing the team and not targeting guys that are so obvious they don't fit that every fan is flabbergasted when they occur.

There is no right or wrong in this situation. We can all agree he has done a good job with the draft. But where we differ is that you have confidence he can do a good job building around these guys. I do not. I'd rather he focus on coaching and developing young guys and let someone else focus on building the team.

You should cut and paste this post to the Isiah fan club commenting on Berman's post
Let's try to elevate the level of discourse in this byeetch. Please
misterearl
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12/21/2006  2:14 PM
Bump it, I'm going out to purchase some $15 Starbury's

I'm watching the team building take place every night the Knicks yoots pull out a close win while the young and talented Hawks lose a 21 point fourth quarter lead against the team we beat, the Jazz

I'm putting an extra special Bernard King game face on for Friday

Go NY Go

[Edited by - misterearl on 12-21-2006 2:14 PM]
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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12/21/2006  2:30 PM
A Glimmer

>>The Knicks are just in a weird place right now. The Knicks haven't had this many young players in the rotation in forever. In past years, they've been either awful - like in the late Layden years - or championship contenders. Though at times this group is awful, the Knicks are at least young. Young, unpredictable, maddening and, you have to admit, at times fun.

- Berman
once a knick always a knick
nixluva
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12/21/2006  2:30 PM
I want to see the person who thought that this team could be rebuilt in less than 3 years? Cuz when Isiah took the job EVERYONE thought it was a nearly impossible task. They were saying 4-5 years at least to get this thing turned around. Well he's taken a different route, but he's still been making good progress in terms of the roster. Wins and Losses is one thing but in terms of good players brought in, Isiah has done that.

If he had tried to back up the truck and start over, there's no guarantee we'd be any better right now. This whole idea that it's easier to rebuild is nonsense. How long has it taken Chicago, Boston, Atlanta, Toronto, etc. Teams just don't rebuild into Finals teams the way people make it seem. Even when you have tons of top draft picks.

Many of the so called bad moves have been made up for with better players we've been able to draft and acquire. Right now he still has 2 of his bad moves on the team, but really many GM's have a few like that. This team still has a chance to put it together and do something this year.
Bippity10
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12/21/2006  2:31 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Bump it, I'm going out to purchase some $15 Starbury's

I'm watching the team building take place every night the Knicks yoots pull out a close win while the young and talented Hawks lose a 21 point fourth quarter lead against the team we beat, the Jazz

I'm putting an extra special Bernard King game face on for Friday

Go NY Go

[Edited by - misterearl on 12-21-2006 2:14 PM]

I dont' know what that post means. It of course didn't address my post although I'm sure you thought it did.
I just hope that people will like me
BlueSeats
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12/21/2006  2:40 PM
Posted by nixluva:

I want to see the person who thought that this team could be rebuilt in less than 3 years?

Aren't you that person? Didn't you think we'd be 47+ wins this year? Didn't you applaud most every trade made over the last 3 years? Haven't you expected more from the Knicks than they've given you every year since Marbury has gotten here?

Best I can tell, nobody thought it would be easier and faster than you.
nyk4ever
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12/21/2006  2:42 PM
My whole argument, which I'm sure some people have a problem with, is that although we are a younger team, our younger players are not good enough to build around. NOW, that would be fine if you have cap-room and the maneuverability to make some moves via trade, but we don't have that ability, so building around guys like Curry, Frye, Lee, Crawford has a ceiling. That ceiling is 8th seed in the playoffs(unless your division is terrible like the Atlantic this year) in a GOOD year and picks 10-13 in the lottery in a normal year. This puts you further away from the top 3 picks in the draft where the studs are picked and while some fans think something has been accomplished by making the playoffs as an 8th seed like our Knick team could be at ceiling level, most realize that the team is built to be nothing more than mediocre for years.

As I said, drafting guys like Frye and Lee are FINE, as long as you already have a foundation to put them around, we don't have a foundation to put them around and they ARE the foundation. I love Lee, many know he's my favorite player but he's not someone you can build the team around and neither is Frye and neither is Curry. Have we had a top player already(say a TOP SG or SF) and we then surrounded him with guys like Frye, Lee, Curry, I would be ECSTATIC, because that would be a hell of a good team. We don't have that top player and we don't have maneuverability to sign F/A's, which means this team is going to be very mediocre since we are good enough to never be high in the lottery but bad enough to be nothing more than an 8th seed in the playoffs.

<--End

-->Begin Flaming

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 12-21-2006 2:43 PM]
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
Bippity10
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12/21/2006  2:56 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by nixluva:

I want to see the person who thought that this team could be rebuilt in less than 3 years?

Aren't you that person? Didn't you think we'd be 47+ wins this year? Didn't you applaud most every trade made over the last 3 years? Haven't you expected more from the Knicks than they've given you every year since Marbury has gotten here?

Best I can tell, nobody thought it would be easier and faster than you.


Yup. He had the highest win total in the bunch and seemed to be the most unrealistic fan. Yet calls everyone out for their lack of realism. He confuses me a lot.
I just hope that people will like me
BlueSeats
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12/21/2006  3:01 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:

My whole argument, which I'm sure some people have a problem with, is that although we are a younger team, our younger players are not good enough to build around. NOW, that would be fine if you have cap-room and the maneuverability to make some moves via trade, but we don't have that ability, so building around guys like Curry, Frye, Lee, Crawford has a ceiling. That ceiling is 8th seed in the playoffs(unless your division is terrible like the Atlantic this year) in a GOOD year and picks 10-13 in the lottery in a normal year. This puts you further away from the top 3 picks in the draft where the studs are picked and while some fans think something has been accomplished by making the playoffs as an 8th seed like our Knick team could be at ceiling level, most realize that the team is built to be nothing more than mediocre for years.

As I said, drafting guys like Frye and Lee are FINE, as long as you already have a foundation to put them around, we don't have a foundation to put them around and they ARE the foundation. I love Lee, many know he's my favorite player but he's not someone you can build the team around and neither is Frye and neither is Curry. Have we had a top player already(say a TOP SG or SF) and we then surrounded him with guys like Frye, Lee, Curry, I would be ECSTATIC, because that would be a hell of a good team. We don't have that top player and we don't have maneuverability to sign F/A's, which means this team is going to be very mediocre since we are good enough to never be high in the lottery but bad enough to be nothing more than an 8th seed in the playoffs.

<--End

-->Begin Flaming


It's kinda like this:

The good news is Lee is possibly our best player, he's exceeded almost all expectations.

The bad news is Lee is our best player.
misterearl
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12/21/2006  6:11 PM
>>We don't have that top player and we don't have maneuverability to sign F/A's, which means this team is going to be very mediocre since we are good enough to never be high in the lottery but bad enough to be nothing more than an 8th seed in the playoffs.

BlueSeats - that was the same line when Layden left.

The Knicks are not done dealing.

Why not think of Frye, Lee, Curry, Jeffries and even Rodm... I mean... Balkman... as young, active and improving, building blocks for the frontcourt?

I don't hear Greg Anthony dissing Renaldo very much these days, do you?

The backcourt is on the clock.

once a knick always a knick
rojasmas
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12/21/2006  8:37 PM
All I know is that a lot of the biggest complainers on this post, were the biggest Marbury supporters a couple of years ago. My how the times have changed. Hindsight is 20/20. Isiah got you your bonafide "star", or so it seemed. It just hasn't worked out the way it was supposed to work out.
We could be the Dallas Mavs of the East.
BlueSeats
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12/21/2006  9:08 PM
Posted by misterearl:

BlueSeats - that was the same line when Layden left.


and he's been called the worst GM in professional sports, yet you're content to say the same of his replacement's work?
Bippity10
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12/21/2006  9:49 PM
The bottom line is some people think Isiah is the man to build this team and some people do not think he is. It is an opinion and neither opinion makes you any more of a Knick fan than the other. Neither makes you anymore of a hater than the other. It's just an opinion.
I just hope that people will like me
sebstar
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12/22/2006  1:15 AM
A healthy debate is fine but I think Knick fans, true to the NY sport fan nature, have become obsessed with myopia ala Red Sox fans pre-2004. You have people around here arguing against logic by saying that George Karl was not trying to run up the score just to take an anti-Isiah position.
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
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