Killa, Im starting to realize, that your view on Israel is based quite largely on what other people have told you that is simply not historical fact.
1. You say that any jew has rights of Israeli nationality while the same doesnt apply to arabs. Thats just not true. There are many, many israeli arabs living in israel. They have a right to vote. They have representatives in the Knesset. They are treated like any other Isaeli, with perhaps the exception that they are viewed with more suspicion then Jews simply because they are arabs. While the suspicion part may not be right, it is certainly understandable. Palestinians ie the group of people living now in the West Bank and the Gaza strip would still be living there now happy as Larry if they had been happy with just being part of Israel, like so many other arabs who live in Jerusalem and other cities. But they werent happy with that. All their Arab brothers kicked them out of their countries, they wound up in Israel, and decided to demand it as their own country. So first they just begin with demands. Then they move to aggressive threats. The next thing you know, Hamas is in power, vowing to "drive the Jews into the sea". This is, once again, the very basic principle that Israel is surrounded by countries who will never be happy until every Jew is wiped off the map.
2. You speak of the separation between church and state in the US. This is all well and good in a secular country like the US. In the US, they have to careful so as not to favour any specific religion, or be biased against any specific religion. But Israel, as I mentioned before is a JEWISH state. Its a country where JEWS can live. Jews have never in their history, and their history is a hell of a lot longer then any other nationality, race or religion, tried to kill or destroy another (the one exception being the ancient tribe of Amalek, who were so besotted with destroying every living Jew, they chased them halfway accross the globe just to have a pop). While Israel is a jewish state, anyone is welcome there, and this shows their respect for others. I cannot go to Dubai. I cannot go to Saudi Arabia. I cannot go to Iran or Syria. I can go to Lebanon or Jordan, but only if I make sure noone realizes im jewish. The fact that Israel is a jewish state means that they are govorned by Jewish laws standards and principles. Have you ever seen a city where you cannot drive on the sabbath? There are places in Israel like that, because the people that live there WANT that. The jewish people believe in God. We believe that God gave us Israel thousands of years ago. We have lived there for thousands of years, interrupted by countless invasions, displacements, slaughters and deportations. The jews living outside of Israel are known as Diaspora jews because we are in exile. Exile why? Because we were forced out of Israel. Our holy temple was destroyed. There is only one wall of it left. Millions of people each year visit the Western Wall including Alonzo Mourning (there, we're officially a basketball related thread now
) Intriguingly, last week was a fast day to commemorate the day in history that Jerusalem was surrounded and beseiged, and in a few weeks time is another fast day to commemorate the day Jerusalem fell and our exile began. This is why Israel is a religious state. Why are we different then Arab states you ask? Because, unlike those countries, we believe in tolerance and freedom for all. Hence we are a DEMOCRATIC country. Do you know how hard it is for someone who is not Jewish to become a jew? Damn hard. We dont want to turn people. We dont want to change other peoples way of life. We just want to be. We want to be in the land god gave our forefathers thousands of years before any Palestinians decided to have new ideas on what Israel should be. Does this sound like religious fanatacism to you? I think Im being very rational here. We dont want to hurt people. We dont want to kill people. We just want to be left alone. But noone wants to leave us alone. Discounting oil, Israel is possibly the worst place to be in the universe. Who wants to be surrounded by people who hate you from all sides? Herzog wanted Israel to be in Africa. Have ever heard such silliness. Imagine being thrown out of New York and being told years later "don't worry, we will make you a brand new New York ouside Kenya somewhere". Israel is a place where Jews from all over the globe can go and BE JEWS. Think back throughout history to all the places we couldnt be jews, and maybe you will understand the yearning for a place like that.
3. You speak of victimizers and victims. First of all, who are you to speak of the Holocaust dead as victims? A guy being mugged in an alley is a victim. There have been other atrocities. Other races have been rounded up and shot. Other civilizations have been persecuted. But the jews in Poland, Nazi Germany, Austria and other countries werent just killed. They were rounded up, put in cattle cars so cramped that they couldnt bend their knees and had to relieve themselves on each other and shipped to a place where they werent killed. No, that would be too easy. Only the weak were killed. The rest were made to work. Work so hard that they died anyway, but first the Germans could have use of us. Stripped of any human decency. Made to live seven in a bed, if you call a strip of wood mounted 3 or 4 high a bed. Fed one slice of mouldy bread a day. Used as sport to while away the days for their Nazi camp commanders. Fed to the dogs. Experimented on by mad scientists. Pitted against their own families just to see what would happen. Forced to take their brothers and sisters out of the gas chambers and put them in the incinerator, but first remove gold teeth, prosthetic limbs and any other valuable. When there were too many dead to put in the incinerators, their jewish brothers were made to dig holes in the ground, pack their families in, pour lime on them and set fire to them. And when the Nazis realized the war was over and they had lost, did they perhaps just melt into the morning mist, leaving their jewish capives behind? No, they made them march. Just march. March until they all died anyway. I dont know if you have any children Killa, but have you ever held a childs shoe in your hand and thought "aaaah how cute"? Have you ever seen the mountain of children's shoes in Auschwitz? Bigger then your house. Where do you think all those tiny childrens feet are? I can tell you, if you like. The Holocaust wasnt just terrible beacause of the extermination of Jews and other minorities (gays, gypsies etc.), it was terrible because of the way it happened. Nothing like that has ever occured throughout the length and breadth of human history, and please God it never will again. So dont talk to me about victims.
Be that as it may, you say the Israelis have turned into victimizers. I will ask you one question. As you consider it, bear in mind that throughout history, the Jewish people have never been the aggressor against another nation. Ever. What do you think would have happened if the "palestinians" would have just been happy to live in Israel? We allowed them in when none of their Arab "brothers" would. We gave them water to drink and food to eat. A place to live. They were ALL refugees from the displacement of other Arab nations. What would have happened if they would have been happy living side-by-side with Jews?
4. You say killing people armed with just stones is fascism. Is that what the Palestinians were doing? Throwing stones? Oh, because I was under the obviously misguided impression that they were blowing up innocent women and children in malls and street corners. The Israelis entered palestinian communities to root out the people who were building these bombs. The people who were planning to kill more innocent women and children in the street. A friend of mine got hit in the face by an arm. A human arm!!!!! Someone elses arm! You cannot imagine that until it happens to you. The bomb that went off in Jaffa Street a few years back wasnt just an explosive. No, that would be too simple. So they packed it with nails to maximize the innocent women and children they killed. So, the army goes into the territories to find the people responsible for these atrocities, and what do they get? Teenagers throwing stones at them in the streets. Why are they throwing stones? Shouldnt they want these people to be found? Shouldnt they abhorr the violence perpetrated by these terrorists? What do you call these people who support suicide bomb-makers on the streets? Collaborators? Brain-washed? You decide.
Bulldozing communities. The Israelis only bulldozed families of suicide bombers. Does it actually make sense to "create space" for Israeli settlers right next to the Arabs who are actively trying to kill them? The bulldozers were used as an attempt at preventive punishment, and I support that fully. Open racism against Palestinians. The open hatred of Palestinians is aimed at those people who bomb malls, shopping centers, busy pizza stores and restaurants. I myself, and Im sure you join me in hating these people. I ask again, what do you think would happen if the palestinians would have been happy living side-by-side with Jews? The Israeli Arabs have reprsentatives in Knesset. There is no racism on that side of things.
There. Ive tried to explain things as they are. This is the reality in Israel. People want to kill us. We dont want to kill them. If they stopped trying to kill us we would be happy. They will not be happy until ever Jew is dead. Whos side are you on?
Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
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