Posted by BlueSeats:

I wrote this on another board, my apologies to those who've seen it before:

Good post bballer, I enjoyed the passion behind it.

I see two main points within it.

1. LB threw the team under a bus.

2. Steph gets unfairly singled out.

What exactly constitutes throwing the team under a bus? We were 17-39 since Steph declared himself the best last season and then lost Sweets, JYD and Kurt. Curry replaced Sweets, but no one replaced Kurt who was our best shooter, best defender, best leader, only two-way player, and the guy most within and outside the organization referred to as our "glue". So from and awful defensive squad with woeful shooting and non-existent leadership was removed the one guy who represented the best the team had to offer in each area and you have what we are now: unglued.

And what has Larry done that validates sucky effort? can someone remind me of his worst insults? I remember "I don't have a head out there" that was broadly directed at Steph, Jamal and Nate, and a very truthful statement that these guys don't know how to close games, as evidenced by all our poor endings of last year.

Then he called Ariza "delusional" when Ariza told the press he didn't know why he wasn't getting to start. Larry said if after all he was told by himself and the coaching staff he still didn't get why he was being taken out then UCLA must not be a great school.

Harsh? A little. Enough for the team to quit? Please...

The other thing that's said to be sooo egregious is too many lineup changes. Well consider how many were caused by injuries to Curry, James, Steph, and Q; and then trying to acclimate new guys like Barnes and Woods, Jalen and Francis; and then giving the rookies their chances...it adds up. And it's not like every change was monumental. Often it amounted to nothing more than Malik starting at SF vs Lee. Largely Marbury, Q and Curry were guaranteed starts when healthy

If swapping out one position a night is going to kill the team, it's not a strong team to begin with. The challenge was for each guy to come ready to play each and every game. Well booo hooo, sorry for the entitlement princes who don't get 40 mins regardless of effort, and sorry for the guys who don't get their millions for little more than waiving a towel from the bench, sorry everyone gets to contribute.


Then from Larry what else have we gotten? A fair amount of criticism, but also praise. How many times did he call Marbury phenomenal during our 6 game win streak? Many. Now you keep praising the consistency of Steph's effort, but even the most casual viewer must have seen a totally different level of commitment from Steph during that win streak. It was some of the best playmaking and intangaibles of his career, and something not seen before or since.

And I'm told it was provoked by an ultimatum to get with the program or be traded. THAT was the source of Steph's effort. That's not a good enough reason to try, that's not gonna take us where we need to go. But we see where things could go when the effort and commitment is there. Pity it only lasted 7 games.

Now it's true, steph got taken out of that mode by the injury, but upon his return does he ask to go back to that lineup to resume it's success? NO!!! he uses it as an opportunity to undermine the coach by suggesting they run NO set plays!!! He proceeds to break plays, and we give up a 71 point 1st half after getting scorched by I think Arenas, and Marbury stays in the locker room to nurse his shoulder for the second half. That was his momentous return to the team ball that won 6 straight.

The only time we saw another uptick in effort was after Dolan came in to tell the team a mutiny will not succeed and they have to keep trying. We win two straight but Marbury has to take the air out of it saying he's sick of being some other dude and is biding his time to be Starbury again.

The dude undermines the coach every time something gets going. The same guy who shortly after Brown was hired said: "I'm not going to change my game, I'm still going to play the way I've always played"

And these are the words from one of Steph's former teammates before the season began "Steph is going to say all the right things about playing for Coach Brown, because Steph will tell you anything you want to hear if it benefits Steph," a former Marbury teammate told me yesterday. "But if anyone thinks that marriage is going to work, well, they've never played with Steph, or coached him."

So Larry knew Steph was gonna be a tough nut to crack to get him to change his game willingly. Now I don't recall when Brown first insulted Steph, but I do know it was just 8 games into the season that Steph was claiming playing browns way was too tough for him ("hardest 10 assists I ever got in my life") and saying he'd only do it if it results in wins. Do you think if he doesn't want to do it, and only will if it results in wins, that he's going to play for wins? No, and that's what we saw, poor effort and foot dragging aside from the brief period after the ultimatum.

It looks to me like marbury has been the one throwing the season under the bus to to prove Brown wrong, and THAT is what gives him his special status. Ask yourself if Steph continued to play at the level of the win streak if his future here, and Browns, and Isiah's, would be at the same level of jeopardy that they are today? Of course they wouldn't, and that's why we find ourselves where we are.

Posted by holfresh:



You know, here is what I'm now hoping for....Steph gets traded, so there will be no more excuses...No more blaming anyone else...Be a man....Be the coach he was hired for...Nothing else...I know that Larry can't win without talent...He never has....He has always been successful with some of the best offensive and defensive players in the league...So at the end of next season when we have 20-25 wins..I want to hear what's the excuse now...Like Antonio Carver said to Roy Jones...What's the excuse now Roy Jones...Then in mid season we will start the Larry boyout countdown....This is the NBA...you don't win without talent...If you guys think that Dolan is paying Larry 10 mil per to win 20- 30 games with excuses...I will bet heavily the other way....

Posted by holfresh:

Posted by tkf:

Posted by holfresh:



You know, here is what I'm now hoping for....Steph gets traded, so there will be no more excuses...No more blaming anyone else...Be a man....Be the coach he was hired for...Nothing else...I know that Larry can't win without talent...He never has....He has always been successful with some of the best offensive and defensive players in the league...So at the end of next season when we have 20-25 wins..I want to hear what's the excuse now...Like Antonio Carver said to Roy Jones...What's the excuse now Roy Jones...Then in mid season we will start the Larry boyout countdown....This is the NBA...you don't win without talent...If you guys think that Dolan is paying Larry 10 mil per to win 20- 30 games with excuses...I will bet heavily the other way....

holfresh, come on man, how many sucessful coaches didn't have great defensive or offensive players? come on man, and while we are at it, tell me how many coaches who had great offensive and defensive players who never won? The key is the good coaches win with talent, great talent, and then you have those who don't with with great talent, so I guess what you are telling us is that larry is just like every great coach, he wins with the talent he is supposed to win with...

If marbs is traded, fine, then this team can move forward, I have faith that Brown will be able to win with guys who want to play the right way, while marbs infects minnesota with more of his self proclaimed greatness...

Right exactly...Just no more excuses....Larry do the job you were hired for...Thats all...I want my team in the playoffs...I'm not interested in the back and forth in the press with anyone...I'm not interested in the scapegoats...Most people here think Marbs is the prob...I don't, so as you say, let's move on and see larry do his thing....If not, he too is gone... Then we can rebuild with youth and move forward...Fair enough?

I'm not interested in the scapegoats

or as marbury put it "escapegoat" LOL!!!

I don't, so as you say, let's move on and see larry do his thing....If not, he too is gone... Then we can rebuild with youth and move forward...Fair enough?

fair enough....

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by holfresh:

I have been a Knick fan since the 73 team and have watched the Knicks ever since.....I can name guys that played for the Knicks you have never heard before...I know a bad guy when I see one...Larry Brown is a bad guy...Listen, this year is over and I'm pissed that yet another NBA playoffs and my team is not a competitive part of it...You think the NBA is about coaching, I think it's about the players...So next year, I don't want to hear Larry doesn't have his guys, I don't want to hear we have no head out there....I don't want to hear these guys have low basketball IQ'a because they went to the wrong schools....I want to see wins..thats all....So let's get Marbs out of here and start anew, since we are all convinced he is the problem...I also don't want to heaqr that after 2 years of being here larry has won 28 games and it's am improvement over last year...NO MORE EXCUSES..

First off, let me say that I for one have never insisted that everything that is wrong with this team is Marbury's fault alone. I simply feel he's a divisive influence that gets interferes with the coaches message and has sapped the will from many a team. If you read my post from a few weeks ago full of direct quotes from former coaches, GMs and teammates you know what I mean. <http://ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=15171&page=3>

I think his effect was apparent last year as well when we went from above 16-13 into an immediate 3-16 plummet after proclaiming himself the best. Larry wasn't here for that, those players did it all by themselves.

But that isn't to say that with him removed we are a playoffs team. You say the NBA is about players not coaching, so you are making the assumption we are a playoffs ready team. But with no perimeter defenders, interior defenders, shooters, shot blockers, decision makers, leaders, etc, many of us still see a young imbalanced team with many, many gaps.

I'm all for less dirty laundry and the like, but I don't know that the playoffs is all on Larry's head. If it's a players league, when does it fall on the players, or GM?

Posted by Bippity10:

Before the season started

"Everyone here needs to relax, Larry is not going to turn us into Phoenix East"-Bippity

"We need to change the culture of this team. We need to get rid of this losing atmosphere in NY. From the front office to the coach to the players this losing attitude stinks to high heaven. We finally hired a coach with some credibility. A coach that can coach to teach lessons instead of coaching to save his arse. Things are looking up, but unfortunately it's going to get worse before it gets better"
-Bippity

I didn't predict that it would be this bad of course. I was thinking 35-40 wins filled with turmoil. But this still goes along with what I said. Next year's predictions will be in after the offseason is done. You guys can argue and tell me how crazy I am then.