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Bippity10
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12/12/2005  1:44 PM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by Bippity10:

How are SAR and Frye's game anything alike? I guess I'm missing the comparison.

You can draft for 15 years and just come away with complimentary players. There are no guarntees anywhere. Chicago rebuilt for what 6 years? And they still aren't an elite team. And who is the star they are building around? They have a team of "complimentary players". Atlanta, the Clips. There are no guarantees to going into the lottery. All you are doing is what we are doing, going after young players and crossing your fingers.



[Edited by - bippity10 on 12-12-2005 1:23 PM]

chicago is not an example of teams drafting to no avail

If dumb ass Krause doesn't trade away Brand and Artest they have 2 of the top 10 players in the league right now. No telling where that team might've been.

Think about the length of time it has taken them. Think about the amount of picks they have used and had to dump. They are just starting to see progress now. Jordan retired from them in 1999. It is soon to be 2006 and they still aren't championship caliber. Do you think fans here would be willing to wait from 2004 until 2010 to still be a mediocre team with some upside? No guys like Isles would still be calling for the GM's head, just for different reasons............as for Brand and ARtest you can't make the right choices all the time. That's why rebuilding is so tough. They all make the same mistakes
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djsunyc
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12/12/2005  1:52 PM
chicago DID do it right then F CKED it up by getting rid of them.

they drafted elton brand, artest, and picked up brad miller. that would be the BEST frontcourt in the NBA right now BY FAR. but they F CKED it up by trading them. so they did do it right building via the draft early on but then jerry krause messed it up by his trades.

there's something to be said about drafting players and letting them play together for a while.

great moves in the draft...bad moves in trades...hmmmm....sounds somewhat familiar
McK1
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12/12/2005  1:53 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by McK1:
Posted by Bippity10:

How are SAR and Frye's game anything alike? I guess I'm missing the comparison.

You can draft for 15 years and just come away with complimentary players. There are no guarntees anywhere. Chicago rebuilt for what 6 years? And they still aren't an elite team. And who is the star they are building around? They have a team of "complimentary players". Atlanta, the Clips. There are no guarantees to going into the lottery. All you are doing is what we are doing, going after young players and crossing your fingers.



[Edited by - bippity10 on 12-12-2005 1:23 PM]

chicago is not an example of teams drafting to no avail

If dumb ass Krause doesn't trade away Brand and Artest they have 2 of the top 10 players in the league right now. No telling where that team might've been.

Think about the length of time it has taken them. Think about the amount of picks they have used and had to dump. They are just starting to see progress now. Jordan retired from them in 1999. It is soon to be 2006 and they still aren't championship caliber. Do you think fans here would be willing to wait from 2004 until 2010 to still be a mediocre team with some upside? No guys like Isles would still be calling for the GM's head, just for different reasons............as for Brand and ARtest you can't make the right choices all the time. That's why rebuilding is so tough. They all make the same mistakes

the Paxson regime:

Paxson after his first season dumping Crawford and penciling in Gordon as the designated trigger at guard resulted in a 24 game improvement. So far they are 10-9 w/o Curry, which is a much better start than they had last-season. Thing is thanks to trading Curry, they have 20 mill in capspace this coming summer and a lot of young growing talent to entice free-agents over the next 2 years to come play there with. Plus they have 2 firsts next year to keep adding talent or dangle as trade bait.

Krause's 4 years of mismanagement totally reversed in 1 1/2.



[Edited by - McK1 on 12-12-2005 1:54 PM]
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djsunyc
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12/12/2005  1:54 PM
and speaking of SAR...how great a story would it be for two guys who have historically put up 20 & 8 at 2 different positions and have been career losers combine forces and try to win. marbury, peja, SAR, and miller is not a bad starting 5 for sacratomato (especially the peja/marb combo). they need a shakeup and moving marbury for bibby helps both teams, imho.
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12/12/2005  1:56 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

and speaking of SAR...how great a story would it be for two guys who have historically put up 20 & 8 at 2 different positions and have been career losers combine forces and try to win. marbury, peja, SAR, and miller is not a bad starting 5 for sacratomato (especially the peja/marb combo). they need a shakeup and moving marbury for bibby helps both teams, imho.

Bibby really sucks. He is less of a point guard than Marbury. Marbury could and has run laps around him.
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djsunyc
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12/12/2005  1:58 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by djsunyc:

and speaking of SAR...how great a story would it be for two guys who have historically put up 20 & 8 at 2 different positions and have been career losers combine forces and try to win. marbury, peja, SAR, and miller is not a bad starting 5 for sacratomato (especially the peja/marb combo). they need a shakeup and moving marbury for bibby helps both teams, imho.

Bibby really sucks. He is less of a point guard than Marbury. Marbury could and has run laps around him.

not a big fan of bibby either BUT all i remember from him is the guy hitting big jumper after big jumper in the playoffs. he could be more like our billups.
Allanfan20
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12/12/2005  1:59 PM
You're right. Mike Bibby, a guy who has made a career of knocking big time shots, is a good decision maker and a great player to play with, sucks. Maybe his defense isn't that good, but hey, this is the first year that Marbury is actually a good defender.
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crzymdups
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12/12/2005  2:00 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by djsunyc:

and speaking of SAR...how great a story would it be for two guys who have historically put up 20 & 8 at 2 different positions and have been career losers combine forces and try to win. marbury, peja, SAR, and miller is not a bad starting 5 for sacratomato (especially the peja/marb combo). they need a shakeup and moving marbury for bibby helps both teams, imho.

Bibby really sucks. He is less of a point guard than Marbury. Marbury could and has run laps around him.

not a big fan of bibby either BUT all i remember from him is the guy hitting big jumper after big jumper in the playoffs. he could be more like our billups.

He's definitely a better shooter than Marbury, but far less of a point guard. I don't know, he might fit better here, but somehow I doubt it. His game has really devolved at this stage though, he's almost the shoot first guard everyone claims Marbury is.
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Bippity10
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12/12/2005  2:02 PM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by McK1:
Posted by Bippity10:

How are SAR and Frye's game anything alike? I guess I'm missing the comparison.

You can draft for 15 years and just come away with complimentary players. There are no guarntees anywhere. Chicago rebuilt for what 6 years? And they still aren't an elite team. And who is the star they are building around? They have a team of "complimentary players". Atlanta, the Clips. There are no guarantees to going into the lottery. All you are doing is what we are doing, going after young players and crossing your fingers.



[Edited by - bippity10 on 12-12-2005 1:23 PM]

chicago is not an example of teams drafting to no avail

If dumb ass Krause doesn't trade away Brand and Artest they have 2 of the top 10 players in the league right now. No telling where that team might've been.

Think about the length of time it has taken them. Think about the amount of picks they have used and had to dump. They are just starting to see progress now. Jordan retired from them in 1999. It is soon to be 2006 and they still aren't championship caliber. Do you think fans here would be willing to wait from 2004 until 2010 to still be a mediocre team with some upside? No guys like Isles would still be calling for the GM's head, just for different reasons............as for Brand and ARtest you can't make the right choices all the time. That's why rebuilding is so tough. They all make the same mistakes

the Paxson regime:

Paxson after his first season dumping Crawford and penciling in Gordon as the designated trigger at guard resulted in a 24 game improvement. So far they are 10-9 w/o Curry, which is a much better start than they had last-season. Thing is thanks to trading Curry, they have 20 mill in capspace this coming summer and a lot of young growing talent to entice free-agents over the next 2 years to come play there with. Plus they have 2 firsts next year to keep adding talent or dangle as trade bait.

Krause's 4 years of mismanagement totally reversed in 1 1/2.



[Edited by - McK1 on 12-12-2005 1:54 PM]

you are correct on all accounts. It's still been almost 7 years and they are still only 10-9. And they are held up as the model to rebuilding. But that's why it's tough to build strictly through the draft. You give up on the wrong guy or trade for a guy with potential that you think is the right guy and you are set back years. You keep a guy with tons of potential and he doesn't pan out and guess what you are set back years. You can rebuild this way, but there are just as many question marks surronding all these guys as there is around the Knicks.

Now don't get me wrong I love their roster. I would trade the Knicks roster for it. But don't forget the key point. It's taken them 7 years to become mediocre. No ifs and buts, or Krause vs. Paxson. None of that matters. What matters is results(see Marbury points) and it's still taken them almost 7 years to be mediocre. That's pretty standard for ALL TEAMS THAT REBUILD. You're telling me that guys like Islefan and yourself would not be calling for Isiah's head if we had to sit through 7 years of rebuilding and then at the end of 7 years we were celebrating a 10-9 record because we had FUTURE POTENTIAL. You guys are on crack. There is no set way to win a title. You take a chance on young guys and hope one of them reaches there potential. Curry's potential is as high AS ANY PLAYER YOU ARE GETTING IN THE LOTTERY. It is no different.
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Allanfan20
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12/12/2005  2:06 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Allanfan: The game was as frustrating as all the rest but we are clearly making strides. There are some things that are so noticeable.


offense: STill crappy but getting better. I think the stagnation is less a result of the guards selfishness and more a result of teams just collapsing because we don't have a frontcourt player besides Frye that can shoot a 6 footer or more. People hated Allan HOuston but that jumpshot is imperative to help the O. Curry gets bumped constantly and it takes a while to get a good passing angle to him because their is no threat from our PF/SF combo.

Marbury-Clearly, hustling better. His down the stretch decision making horrible

Robinson-Finishing better but is still a mental midget

Old SF/PF-They all make me sick

Ariza-This guy needs a jumpshot desperately but he seems to be making better decisions and is playing solid D on bigger better players.

Crawford-Like Marbs he is clearly making an attempt to get better but his decision making down the stretch along with Marbs really hurts us.

Frye-One day this guy is going to slow himself down in the post and you are going to have a legit, legit player.

Butler-This guy may be better than I thought

Turnovers-Killing us. This leads to the guards shooting more than anything. You can only have so many empty trips before you have to ask your big guns(Marbs and Craw) to make somehting happens. Then they get blamed

Curry-Frustrating

Q-Who?

Bip, I too am frustrated, but some comments:

In the last 2 games, I have actually noticed some good things about Curry. He's really going after that jump hook, which I think is a good sign, b/c once he perfects that, he can really work on going strong and actually finishing around the basket. But the man HAS to get his free throw shooting back on tract.

One thing about Butler, I really really like the kid and he works hard. Heck, he's even better than Curry down the stretch. I think he's a backup we need to keep.

As for Robinson, he drives all of us insane, but he's showing a lot of improvement day by day, just as is Frye. Does this kid have the potential to be a fav of the Bip, since you like those kind of players?
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McK1
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12/12/2005  2:18 PM
Most here are celebrting 6-13 b/c we played the Suns and Clips tough

NY is entering yr 6 of mediocrity. Unlike Chicago, we don't have a ton of draft picks and a ton of capspace to use in getting to that next level

jury is still out on the long-term viability of Eddy Curry. Heart problems, weight issues haven't been solved yet. Not saying I hope he keels over but still Reggie Lewis was fine at first and he was inmuch better shape than Curry.

Chicago clearly had the wrong guy calling the shots. In hindsight he should've retired with Mike. NY clearly had the wrong guy calling the shots. In hindsight he should've never got the job.

Diff for those 2 orgs directions,

1 gm changed course from the prior regime and

* settled on a coach from the outset

* looked to add picks and be a player in free agency from the outset

the other started out very Layden-lite in his approach. 33 wins only opened 1 eye b/4 h traded more picks for Curry, whose long-term viability is still in question. I don't want to see anything bad happen to him but his heart and weight issues still follow him. Lewis RIP was fine at first and he was a much better conditioned athlete.

[Edited by - McK1 on 12-12-2005 2:19 PM]

[Edited by - McK1 on 12-12-2005 2:19 PM]
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crzymdups
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12/12/2005  2:23 PM
Posted by McK1:

Most here are celebrting 6-13 b/c we played the Suns and Clips tough

NY is entering yr 6 of mediocrity. Unlike Chicago, we don't have a ton of draft picks and a ton of capspace to use in getting to that next level

jury is still out on the long-term viability of Eddy Curry. Heart problems, weight issues haven't been solved yet. Not saying I hope he keels over but still Reggie Lewis was fine at first and he was inmuch better shape than Curry.

Chicago clearly had the wrong guy calling the shots. In hindsight he should've retired with Mike. NY clearly had the wrong guy calling the shots. In hindsight he should've never got the job.

Diff for those 2 orgs directions,

1 gm changed course from the prior regime and

* settled on a coach from the outset

* looked to add picks and be a player in free agency from the outset

the other started out very Layden-lite in his approach. 33 wins only opened 1 eye b/4 h traded more picks for Curry, whose long-term viability is still in question. I don't want to see anything bad happen to him but his heart and weight issues still follow him. Lewis RIP was fine at first and he was a much better conditioned athlete.

[Edited by - McK1 on 12-12-2005 2:19 PM]

[Edited by - McK1 on 12-12-2005 2:19 PM]

A) No one here is celebrating the results so far, but a lot of people are saying they are encouraged by some of the young players we have and the way they have been playing.
B) We made the conference Finals in 2000. That same team got knocked out in the first round in 2001 thanks to an awful tragedy in the Camby family. JVG quit in 2001-2 when the team was 10-9 aka where Chicago is now, and after that season the Camby nucleus was blown up in a short-sighted trade. We didn't enter rebuilding mode until Dyess blew out his knee in fall 2002. That was three years ago.
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Bippity10
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12/12/2005  2:31 PM
Butler's got real potential. Maybe not a star(but not everybody has to be)but he will be a player you want on your team 5 years from now. He may be our headiest player right now. He's real savvy around the basket, has great hands, nice footwork and rarely makes a mistake. All this from a 20 year old

Nate: His effort is Charlie Ward like but Charlie(who was no basketball genius) looks like Einstein next to him. I like his effort but as of right now he is way to showwy for me. Too many asinine mistakes. It drives me crazy. On a better team I think he would see very little time. But I haven't given up on him. He has time. I very rarely will decide a players entire basketball career based on 19 games. It's silly.
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Bippity10
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12/12/2005  2:37 PM
Posted by McK1:

Most here are celebrting 6-13 b/c we played the Suns and Clips tough

NY is entering yr 6 of mediocrity. Unlike Chicago, we don't have a ton of draft picks and a ton of capspace to use in getting to that next level

jury is still out on the long-term viability of Eddy Curry. Heart problems, weight issues haven't been solved yet. Not saying I hope he keels over but still Reggie Lewis was fine at first and he was inmuch better shape than Curry.

Chicago clearly had the wrong guy calling the shots. In hindsight he should've retired with Mike. NY clearly had the wrong guy calling the shots. In hindsight he should've never got the job.

Diff for those 2 orgs directions,

1 gm changed course from the prior regime and

* settled on a coach from the outset

* looked to add picks and be a player in free agency from the outset

the other started out very Layden-lite in his approach. 33 wins only opened 1 eye b/4 h traded more picks for Curry, whose long-term viability is still in question. I don't want to see anything bad happen to him but his heart and weight issues still follow him. Lewis RIP was fine at first and he was a much better conditioned athlete.

[Edited by - McK1 on 12-12-2005 2:19 PM]

[Edited by - McK1 on 12-12-2005 2:19 PM]


I agree with crzymdups plus allow me to add one more. When Pax came to Chicago he was building upon a young nucleus. Isiah had to first tear down and then build upon one of the worst rosters in NBA history. We had no choice but to be unconventional and trade these gusy and take chances and give up picks and take on salary. Or;

We could have held on to them all. Still be watching Spoon and Eisley and charlie and KT and Othella. Wait another year and a half from today for the contracts to run out. And then start our 6 years of rebuilding from there. Chicago took a different path because they handled Jordan's retirement differently than we handled Ewing's. Not because of what Isiah has done in his two years here. Those were our only two options. But the grass is always greener.
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McK1
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12/12/2005  2:38 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by McK1:

Most here are celebrting 6-13 b/c we played the Suns and Clips tough

NY is entering yr 6 of mediocrity. Unlike Chicago, we don't have a ton of draft picks and a ton of capspace to use in getting to that next level

jury is still out on the long-term viability of Eddy Curry. Heart problems, weight issues haven't been solved yet. Not saying I hope he keels over but still Reggie Lewis was fine at first and he was inmuch better shape than Curry.

Chicago clearly had the wrong guy calling the shots. In hindsight he should've retired with Mike. NY clearly had the wrong guy calling the shots. In hindsight he should've never got the job.

Diff for those 2 orgs directions,

1 gm changed course from the prior regime and

* settled on a coach from the outset

* looked to add picks and be a player in free agency from the outset

the other started out very Layden-lite in his approach. 33 wins only opened 1 eye b/4 h traded more picks for Curry, whose long-term viability is still in question. I don't want to see anything bad happen to him but his heart and weight issues still follow him. Lewis RIP was fine at first and he was a much better conditioned athlete.

[Edited by - McK1 on 12-12-2005 2:19 PM]

[Edited by - McK1 on 12-12-2005 2:19 PM]

A) No one here is celebrating the results so far, but a lot of people are saying they are encouraged by some of the young players we have and the way they have been playing.
B) We made the conference Finals in 2000. That same team got knocked out in the first round in 2001 thanks to an awful tragedy in the Camby family. JVG quit in 2001-2 when the team was 10-9 aka where Chicago is now, and after that season the Camby nucleus was blown up in a short-sighted trade. We didn't enter rebuilding mode until Dyess blew out his knee in fall 2002. That was three years ago.

from 00-01 season to now, the Knicks have been mediocre to poor.

00-01, 01-02, 02-03, 03-04, 04-05, 05-06

yr 6 of mediocrity

losing to TDot in the first round was the stamp NY's run was over.

[Edited by - McK1 on 12-12-2005 2:38 PM]
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Allanfan20
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12/12/2005  2:38 PM
B) We made the conference Finals in 2000. That same team got knocked out in the first round in 2001 thanks to an awful tragedy in the Camby family.

That was NOT the same team. No Ewing, Glen Rice was there the second year instead. Marcus Camby was a little better, but that was the start of the demise and it got worse and worse as we traded draft picks for Othella Harrington and Mark Jackson. The same picks we got in the Ewing trade. So essentially, we traded Ewing for Shanvis Eisleyspoon (Well, we signed Weatherspoon with the MLE) as well as Harrington and Jackson.

Back to your point. Did it hurt us that Camby had that family crisis. Yes, it sure did. But we still had no low post game, Spree was blaming everything on everyone else but himself and we just weren't a very good team that year, even though we were just above .500 and made the playoffs. It was the beginning of many bad things to come. The team, the year before, was VERY GOOD.
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12/12/2005  2:44 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by Bippity10:

My point was the style of game for SAR and Frye is not even close.

that too. I absolutely agree. But I wanted to dispel the notion that SAR is remotely in Frye's league. we'll revisit the whole SAR/Frye stats thing at the end of the year and it's going to look really silly by then.

Do you honestly believe that if Frye was thrown into a situation where he had to do it all by himself on an expansion team that he would be putting up numbers close to what he has? Frye isn't in SAR's class right now and it will be interesting to see if Frye can develop into a 20-10 player the way SAR did.
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12/12/2005  2:45 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by islesfan:

2 years ago I said Isiah was going to bring us to the depths of mediocrity for years to come and so far he's done nothing to dispute that. He continues to bring in flawed players at ridiculous costs in terms of draft picks and money that will sink us deeper and deeper in the abyss.

what did you expect him to do? he didnt have a lot to work with. the trade was made for steph when AH was still healthy, and we were trying to win now while Houston's knees were still good. isiah has a plan(thats kinda dumb to say a GM doesnt have a plan since thats their job), its ok if you dont see it, but it seems like you just hate isiah no matter what he does(and your view of him just reinforces that).

I expected him to tear it down and build it back up with lottery picks and cap room starting next year. We've been through 3 crap years already so what would have been the difference in terms of wins and losses? Of course he had assets to work with. He had every #1 pick, expiring contracts and Dolan's checkbook to take back as many bad contracts as possible as long as they end sooner rather than later the way he did. God forbid he should plan for the future instead of sacrificing everything he has for the present. And by future I mean top draft picks that you can build a franchise around and not flawed players who were drafted late or not at all but given burn because we have nothing else.


how can you say this team, as currently constructed, is not about the future? these players are still a work in progress, and arent expected to win now.
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12/12/2005  2:45 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:
B) We made the conference Finals in 2000. That same team got knocked out in the first round in 2001 thanks to an awful tragedy in the Camby family.

That was NOT the same team. No Ewing, Glen Rice was there the second year instead. Marcus Camby was a little better, but that was the start of the demise and it got worse and worse as we traded draft picks for Othella Harrington and Mark Jackson. The same picks we got in the Ewing trade. So essentially, we traded Ewing for Shanvis Eisleyspoon (Well, we signed Weatherspoon with the MLE) as well as Harrington and Jackson.

Back to your point. Did it hurt us that Camby had that family crisis. Yes, it sure did. But we still had no low post game, Spree was blaming everything on everyone else but himself and we just weren't a very good team that year, even though we were just above .500 and made the playoffs. It was the beginning of many bad things to come. The team, the year before, was VERY GOOD.

Fair enough. I always forget when the Ewing trade actually occured. I would still say 00-01 when the team was the three seed and the only reason we lost was a family tragedy to our best player was not a rebuilding season. We didn't NEED to rebuild fully until the McDyess trade blew up in our face and we had the worst roster in the NBA for two straight seasons.
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12/12/2005  2:46 PM
We could have held on to them all. Still be watching Spoon and Eisley and charlie and KT and Othella. Wait another year and a half from today for the contracts to run out. And then start our 6 years of rebuilding from there. Chicago took a different path because they handled Jordan's retirement differently than we handled Ewing's. Not because of what Isiah has done in his two years here. Those were our only two options. But the grass is always greener
.

what Isiah has done in the past 2 year has added on to the prior fiascos following the Ewing trade.

Instead of Ward/Eisley, give Williams a fair shot. Don't like him...DRAFT A POINT!
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
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