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Ariza is becoming a star before our eyes
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rojasmas
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11/12/2005  10:42 AM
Define star. I don't see it. Versatile player,yes. Star, not quite.
We could be the Dallas Mavs of the East.
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oohah
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11/12/2005  10:51 AM
I'm wondering if these last couple of games have helped open peoples eyes a bit. Bonn, Ooha, whoever.

No fishmik,

My eyes have not been closed to Ariza's star potential--or opened to his potential, by a couple of games. I try to base my opinions on sample sizes that are large enough to mean something.

It seems that the new popular opinion about Ariza on this thread is that because Ariza presently can't dribble through his legs eight times, juke his man off balance, then step back for a 28 footer (okay an 18 footer...)at 20, he cannot grow into a star player.

I am not of that opinion. My opinion is that Ariza has shown that he naturally has a good handle on most parts of the game that cannot be practiced or teached. He has a great NBA body, and is probably in the top 20 percent athletically. I see that when he goes to the hole he has to be reckoned with by 3 defensive players and he knows how to pass out of that situation for easy scores. I see that he excels at defense, the part of the game that most young players, and many players in general don't excel at.

Even if Ariza never becomes a 'good' dribbler/shooter, I submit, that he does not have to be in order to be a good player! But if he does pick up a jumpshot he can become a very good player.

Way too much is being made of his lack of handle. Maybe most folks have not noticed, but 6'8" guys are generally not the primary dribblers on their team. I personally want Ariza playing close to the basket, not doing a Jalen rose imitation.

I do think the comparison to Marion is apt. I am not saying that Ariza is as good or worse than Marion was at any specific point, such as exactly 20 years, 2 months, 2 days and 4 hours. I am not saying they are carbon copies of each other. No, it is more in the philosophy of how they play, how they get their points and production in the flow of the game *without* having to isolate their man and break them down. Will Ariza be as good as Marion? Very unlikely. But my worst case scenario for Ariza is Stacey Augmon. And the potential to be much better than Augmon is there.

oohah



Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
islesfan
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11/12/2005  1:34 PM
The Knicks would be fortunate if Ariza turns out as good as Plastic Man. Augmon was a very good overall defender and could shoot a little bit which is about 100x's more than Ariza has shown so far.

Not a bad comparison though.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
bobs3304
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11/12/2005  2:07 PM
But can we afford to wait for just a Stacey Augmon?
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
fishmike
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11/12/2005  2:08 PM
I already think Ariza is a good player. We agree there. Guys that rebound, crash the boards and play D like him are good.
My eyes have not been closed to Ariza's star potential--or opened to his potential, by a couple of games. I try to base my opinions on sample sizes that are large enough to mean something.
Well this is year 2. He's gotten stronger I would say by a bit but thats about all.
It seems that the new popular opinion about Ariza on this thread is that because Ariza presently can't dribble through his legs eight times, juke his man off balance, then step back for a 28 footer (okay an 18 footer...)at 20, he cannot grow into a star player.
Maybe. Personally I would be thrilled with a consistant 15 foot jumper when he's left wide open on broken plays. The stuff you mentioned would just be a bonus.
Way too much is being made of his lack of handle. Maybe most folks have not noticed, but 6'8" guys are generally not the primary dribblers on their team. I personally want Ariza playing close to the basket, not doing a Jalen rose imitation.
Its not dribbling. Its the total lack of skills on offense. He's got the look of a wide reciever that grew some and was converted into a BB player. He can fly around make plays, but he dribbles and shoots like a 12 year old just back from his first BB summer camp.

I would be THRILLED with a Stacy Augmon. Just because you dont have Allan's jumper or Scottie's handle doesnt mean you cant be a key player, a starter or a core part of a title caliber team
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
bobs3304
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11/12/2005  2:09 PM
^Again....that's true.

But we need a "Mr. Intangibles" at SF. If Trevor doesn't continue to show improvement in other areas, I'm not so sure holding onto him is wise, when we could be making use of market value.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
oohah
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11/12/2005  3:58 PM
I already think Ariza is a good player. We agree there. Guys that rebound, crash the boards and play D like him are good.

I think that we can all agree that we like Ariza and that he is a player with a decent future. (Can we?)

Well this is year 2. He's gotten stronger I would say by a bit but thats about all.

I saw some 'new' stuff from Ariza in summer league, but either he isn't confident/ready to try it during the regular season or Larry Brown has him sh!tting in his pants. I think a little of both.

Maybe. Personally I would be thrilled with a consistant 15 foot jumper when he's left wide open on broken plays. The stuff you mentioned would just be a bonus.

I expect that to come along with time. Ariza doesn't look like a spaz or an 'iron-hands' type, so all he needs to do is keep working on it. Most guys develop into better shooters with as they accumulate seasons. Look at Antonio Davis...it used to be that he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn!

Its not dribbling. Its the total lack of skills on offense. He's got the look of a wide reciever that grew some and was converted into a BB player. He can fly around make plays, but he dribbles and shoots like a 12 year old just back from his first BB summer camp.

I understand what you are saying, he is still more athlete than basketball player. But at the same time, all the right instincts of how to play are there. It is clear that he understands team concept on the floor. That is also why I think he has a very bright future. For that reason, with his athletic ability, you probably could drop him into many team sports (Outside of baseball.) and he would be pretty good (Not necessarily a professional.).

Channing Frye and David Lee also understand team concept well. By comparison, both Marbury's and Crawford's instincs are geared toward the individual. Some guys never learn.

I would be THRILLED with a Stacy Augmon. Just because you dont have Allan's jumper or Scottie's handle doesnt mean you cant be a key player, a starter or a core part of a title caliber team

I see a Stacey Augmon type career or better as a realistic possibility for Ariza. Take a look at Augmon's averages, and remember, he was 23 when he played his first game.

Stacey Augmon
CAREER AVERAGES
REBOUNDS PER GAME 

YEAR TEAM       G GS MPG   FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG 
 91-92  ATL    82 82 30.5 .489 .167 .666 2.3 2.8 5.1 2.5 1.51 .33 2.21 2.00 13.3 
 92-93  ATL    73 66 28.9 .501 .000 .739 1.9 2.0 3.9 2.3 1.25 .25 2.15 1.90 14.0 
 93-94  ATL    82 82 31.8 .510 .143 .764 2.2 2.6 4.8 2.3 1.82 .55 1.79 2.20 14.8 
 94-95  ATL    76 76 31.1 .453 .269 .728 2.1 2.8 4.8 2.6 1.32 .62 2.00 2.10 13.9 
 95-96  ATL    77 49 29.8 .491 .250 .792 1.8 2.2 3.9 1.8 1.38 .40 1.79 2.40 12.7 
 96-97  DET    20 3 14.6 .403 .000 .683 .7 1.8 2.5 .8 .50 .50 1.35 1.50 4.5 
 96-97  POR    40 7 16.3 .517 .000 .732 .8 1.4 2.2 1.0 .80 .18 .93 1.50 4.7 
 96-97  --     60 10 15.7 .477 .000 .711 .8 1.5 2.3 .9 .70 .28 1.07 1.50 4.7 
 97-98  POR    71 23 20.4 .414 .143 .603 1.5 1.8 3.3 1.2 .80 .45 1.14 2.00 5.7 
 98-99  POR    48 21 18.2 .448 .000 .684 1.0 1.6 2.6 1.2 1.19 .38 .63 1.70 4.3 
 99-00  POR    59 0 11.7 .474 .000 .673 .7 1.3 2.0 .9 .46 .19 .64 1.20 3.4 
 00-01  POR    66 23 17.9 .477 .000 .655 .9 1.5 2.4 1.5 .73 .32 .73 1.60 4.7 
 01-02  CHA    77 3 17.1 .427 .000 .762 .8 2.2 2.9 1.3 .73 .16 .70 1.50 4.6 
 02-03  NOH    70 3 12.3 .411 .000 .750 .4 1.3 1.7 1.0 .39 .13 .57 1.10 3.0 
 03-04  NOH    69 24 20.5 .412 .143 .791 .8 1.8 2.5 1.2 .80 .22 1.10 1.70 5.8 
 04-05  ORL    55 7 12.1 .407 .000 .740 .8 1.0 1.8 .7 .42 .15 .56 1.50 3.5 
 Career       965 469 22.0 .470 .152 .728 1.3 1.9 3.3 1.6 1.00 .30 1.28 1.80 8.2 
 Playoff       77 25 19.1 .438 .000 .780 .7 1.6 2.3 1.3 .73 .18 .95 1.80 6.


oohah

P.S. Thanks for the tip tomvereve, I edited the table as you suggested.



[Edited by - oohah on 11-12-2005 4:44 PM]

[Edited by - oohah on 11-12-2005 4:46 PM]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
tomverve
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11/12/2005  4:14 PM
oohah, a formatting tip: surround tables of data like that with the [ code ] tag. That allows you to keep multiple spaces inbetween characters so you can line up data. Like so:


season   ppg   rpg  etc
98-99    10.2  5.4  3.2
etc



[Edited by - tomverve on 11-12-2005 4:16 PM]
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Bonn1997
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11/13/2005  11:29 PM
13/6/5/4 off the bench!
SlimPack
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11/13/2005  11:37 PM
yeah he had that cool off balance lay up, and he hit a couple of jumpers too, ariza's game is improving very rapidly thats what I think anyway.
Rich
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11/13/2005  11:38 PM
Frye is the nascent star on this team.
Panos
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11/13/2005  11:41 PM
He definitely looked good tonight. Nice touch on his jumper. Interesting that we drafted him as a center though. Don't think he can play center in this league. PF maybe.
oohah
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11/13/2005  11:43 PM
Frye is the nascent star on this team.

Frye looks very good. I would have to call Ariza a nascent star as well.

oohah
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Bonn1997
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11/13/2005  11:44 PM
Posted by oohah:
Frye is the nascent star on this team.

Frye looks very good. I would have to call Ariza a nascent star as well.

oohah
But he's an "unskilled" player! LOL!
oohah
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11/13/2005  11:46 PM
But he's an "unskilled" player! LOL!

I knoooooooow...

oohah
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
rvhoss
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11/13/2005  11:51 PM
he's hitting his jumpers...once he gets "crawford" confidence, he could be pretty damn good.
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Solace
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11/14/2005  12:05 AM
Trevor Stariza..
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
oohah
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11/14/2005  12:08 AM
Trevor Stariza..

Arizan to believe!

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Ira
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11/14/2005  6:05 AM
I'd like to see Ariza and Frye in the starting lineup by the end of the year.
fishmike
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11/14/2005  7:55 AM
Riz looked great tonight. After I saw Frye in the tourney I thought he could be a 20 point scorer in the NBA and people scoffed at that. He really is the perfect compliment to Curry. He's so important because he can draw opposing bigs out as they HAVE to gaurd him
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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Ariza is becoming a star before our eyes
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