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Bonn1997
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8/11/2005  11:26 AM
Again, we could have put ourselves in position to really build a title caliber team by stocking up on more of the young talent
How much more young talent do you demand that Isiah get? He's gotten EIGHT nice young players between 19 and 25 in just a year and half.
AUTOADVERT
djsunyc
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8/11/2005  11:29 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Again, we could have put ourselves in position to really build a title caliber team by stocking up on more of the young talent
How much more young talent do you demand that Isiah get? He's gotten EIGHT nice young players between 19 and 25 in just a year and half.

i wanted NINE bonn...NINE...
Bonn1997
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8/11/2005  11:37 AM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Again, we could have put ourselves in position to really build a title caliber team by stocking up on more of the young talent
How much more young talent do you demand that Isiah get? He's gotten EIGHT nice young players between 19 and 25 in just a year and half.

i wanted NINE bonn...NINE...
LOL! I guess that was Fish's cut off too. Oh well.
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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8/11/2005  11:42 AM
There are opinions about JJ supposedly not being able to help this team enough. That's what Knight was referring to, and was right. It makes no damn sense. All of a sudden this deal is so horriffic that we gotta have like 4 different threads rehashing this mess? It IS unbelieveable that this much petty nitpicking is going on in what IS our best offseason in a hell of a long time. Just when there's a reason to be happy about something, there will always be some who can't see a bright side if their lives depended on it.

Come on, Fish, all of a sudden Isiah is a bad manager? Right after he just got us one of the best coaches in the biz? I'm not singling you out, but just in general, all these nitpick threads, it's getting more than a little redundant.

We paid more than a bargain price for JJ, OK. It's not the end of the world, fellas. Plus, the deal can't be accurately judged until we see the man play for us.

Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
fishmike
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8/11/2005  11:45 AM
would have been nice to add a star FA too though wouldnt it? No need, there's always the MLE guys like Jerome James right?

Also its nice to have young guys.. it really is. Its a good start, but can you say a single one has even borderline franchise or all star talent?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Knight
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8/11/2005  11:48 AM
I just want to thank John Hollinger for providing JJ's bulletin board material for next year--that article should be plastered on JJ's locker so he can be reminded how he is the "worst free agent signing" of the ENTIRE offseason. I'm putting my money on JJ proving his critics wrong this year.

[Edited by - Knight on 08/11/2005 11:55:54]
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
fishmike
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8/11/2005  11:58 AM
Hardcore its not nitpicking

I will speak for myself. I want to win a title. I dont care about just making the playoffs. I saw that for a decade. I want to be the last team standing. When I criticize Isiah's bad moves I'm basing it on the other elite teams in the NBA and what they did to get to that status.

I'm not an advocate of trading Marbury for cap space, but if we avoid taking on deals more than 2 years we could have at least had the option to do so, AND get us in the neighborhood of $20mm in cap space.

Its a bad deal because it kills your flexibility moving forward. God forbid Nate Robinson is budding star after a year and a half, and Channing Frye is one of the better scorers in the paint. Then your in a position to move Marbury and add a MAX level FA around a core of Ariza/Frye/Nate/Crawford/Q/Lee/Sweetney.

To me that kind of flexbility and vision is how you build a title team. Giving yourselves the most options possible. Thats what the great teams around the league do. Thats what the Lakers are doing right now to get back to where they were.

Instead we give a 30 year old with a load of issues a 5 year deal. This for a non impact player that probably isnt even part of a long term plan... he's a stop gap solution to fill a need.

Thats bad planning and bad management IMO
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Knight
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8/11/2005  12:00 PM
If he fills a need then how is he a non-impact player? Our need is defense, he provides that, sounds like an impact to me. A five mil player killing the Knicks championship hopes? Funny.


[Edited by - Knight on 08/11/2005 12:03:53]
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
Bonn1997
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8/11/2005  12:03 PM
Posted by fishmike:

would have been nice to add a star FA too though wouldnt it?
What star FA left his team to join a team that signed him using cap space that you wish we could have gotten this summer? Shareef? Larry Hughes? These are nice players, but not good enough to justify changing your rebuilding direction. I think there's a misunderstanding that you can acquire superstars through free agency so long as you have cap space when in fact superstars almost always sign extensions with their current teams for more money than any team with cap space can offer them.
Bonn1997
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8/11/2005  12:05 PM
Instead Isiah would rather add 2-3 wins now
those 2 to 3 wins could be the difference between making and missing the playoffs. Don't you think it would be good for Ariza, Butler, Nate, Frye, and Lee to get some playoff experience? You have to keep things like that in mind when you have a lot of young players you want to develop.
fishmike
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8/11/2005  12:10 PM
Posted by Knight:

If he fills a need then how is he a non-impact player? Our need is defense, he provides that, sounds like an impact to me. A five mil player killing the Knicks championship hopes? Funny.


[Edited by - Knight on 08/11/2005 12:03:53]
If not for $4mm from the Carter contract the Heat dont get Odom. If not for Odom they dont have the pieces to trade for Shaq. You just dont know.

Bonn, this year's FA class sucked, and if the 07 class sucks also and your not confident you can use the cap space to trade for a bigtime player already under contract then you have the option to just keep Marbury and go with what you have.

Options. Flexibility. I know its something we have never concerned ourselves with. Hell, we used to feel that way about the draft also. Maybe in another 5 years manangement will figure this one out also.

Sorry JJ isnt an impact player. Marbury is an impact player. but thats just my opinion. If you have another thats fine, lets just pass on *that* debate.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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8/11/2005  12:12 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Instead Isiah would rather add 2-3 wins now
those 2 to 3 wins could be the difference between making and missing the playoffs. Don't you think it would be good for Ariza, Butler, Nate, Frye, and Lee to get some playoff experience? You have to keep things like that in mind when you have a lot of young players you want to develop.
no... not if it costs me a shot at a star a year later. Thats assanine. Did getting swept by the Nets help Frank Williams or anyone else for that matter? Please.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
franco12
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8/11/2005  12:18 PM
I don't see James five year MLE deal as that bad.

JJ sucks, but he's also a legit 7 foot center. real 7 footers get paid money to be stiffs.

In years 3-5, lets hope he is a back up. I don't think that is so bad.

As for franchise talent, I think the only way we're getting that is to add some through the draft. If we end up back in the lottery, I wouldn't be surprised.
Knight
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8/11/2005  12:20 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by Knight:

If he fills a need then how is he a non-impact player? Our need is defense, he provides that, sounds like an impact to me. A five mil player killing the Knicks championship hopes? Funny.


[Edited by - Knight on 08/11/2005 12:03:53]
If not for $4mm from the Carter contract the Heat dont get Odom. If not for Odom they dont have the pieces to trade for Shaq. You just dont know.

Sorry JJ isnt an impact player. Marbury is an impact player. but thats just my opinion. If you have another thats fine, lets just pass on *that* debate.

And maybe Odom sucks and they don't get Shaq, you just don't know. You are using "impact player" in the NBA jargon way, I'm not, I'm talking about players who make a positive difference to your team and JJ will do that.
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
Killa4luv
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8/11/2005  12:23 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Again, we could have put ourselves in position to really build a title caliber team by stocking up on more of the young talent
How much more young talent do you demand that Isiah get? He's gotten EIGHT nice young players between 19 and 25 in just a year and half.

i wanted NINE bonn...NINE...
lol!!!!!!!!1
fishmike
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8/11/2005  12:24 PM
imagine if having JJ on your roster for $6mm cost you shot at getting a star in a trade using cap space or his deal keeps you from offering a star a big contract.

Best part if your not basing your future on who might or might not be available, your just giving yourself the option if someone IS.

That it, plain and simple. No more complicated than that. Again... we are in win now mode and back to hurting future flexibility just to make the playoffs and sell seats. Its sad but thats reality in Knick land.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Knight
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8/11/2005  12:26 PM
Posted by fishmike:

imagine if having JJ on your roster for $6mm cost you shot at getting a star in a trade using cap space or his deal keeps you from offering a star a big contract.

Best part if your not basing your future on who might or might not be available, your just giving yourself the option if someone IS.

That it, plain and simple. No more complicated than that. Again... we are in win now mode and back to hurting future flexibility just to make the playoffs and sell seats. Its sad but thats reality in Knick land.

If you are 6 mil short in getting a free agent why do you blame JJ's contract instead of the other 11 or 12? That's just arbitrary.
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
fishmike
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8/11/2005  12:29 PM
Posted by Knight:

And maybe Odom sucks and they don't get Shaq, you just don't know. You are using "impact player" in the NBA jargon way, I'm not, I'm talking about players who make a positive difference to your team and JJ will do that.
And Maybe Frye is the next Jermaine Oneil, Ariza the next Marion and Nate is the next Gary Payton.

Hey.. there's always hope! When logic and solid planning goes by the wayside there's always hope to cling to! Hope we win the lottery and draft Lebron, Bogut, Rudy Gay in the next draft!

Hope is god in Orange and Blue land
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Knight
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8/11/2005  12:31 PM
I always thought it was logical to sign a center if your team didn't have one.
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
fishmike
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8/11/2005  12:32 PM
Posted by Knight:
Posted by fishmike:

imagine if having JJ on your roster for $6mm cost you shot at getting a star in a trade using cap space or his deal keeps you from offering a star a big contract.

Best part if your not basing your future on who might or might not be available, your just giving yourself the option if someone IS.

That it, plain and simple. No more complicated than that. Again... we are in win now mode and back to hurting future flexibility just to make the playoffs and sell seats. Its sad but thats reality in Knick land.

If you are 6 mil short in getting a free agent why do you blame JJ's contract instead of the other 11 or 12? That's just arbitrary.
no, because I'm assuming the other 11 are players we actually want to be a part of the team's core moving forward. Lee, Ariza, Sweetney, Frye, Q, Crawford... they arent arbitrary, they are core parts of the team I'm trying to build. 32 year old fat JJ with declining skills and 3 more years at > $6mm per IS NOT.

You really cant get with the point that every contract can actually matter can you?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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