We are not blowing thru teams. We have moments and its been really good but its often frustrating and not always pretty.
Defending Thibs is also admitting this might be as good as it can be and another coach might bring change and a new hope but change is not always improvement.
I read the game threads and the loathing that goes on and one win or lose is telling fans are frustrated. Even when when we win.

Perhaps increased online gambling is torquing up the fanbase. For goodness sake MLB pitchers are getting death threats to them and family. If fans can do that perhaps its a stretch to think like a teams FO when emotions DON"T drive decisions.

martin wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

Nalod wrote:Context of the moment.
Deuce had leg issues on and off.
Payne did play well early.
Dadiet and Kolek were tried. They did not perform.
Huk had injury issues early, then got it going, then got hurt. Thibs played him. There was a need.
We did have Sims off the bench.
Mitch had 20 games to get ready after being out 11 months.
Shamet shoulder was an issue.
Jalen missed 15 games in March.
It all matters in some form.
Precious in. Then he was out.
Minutes Police regret did not factor this year.

Now your not 100% wrong but what you have now on the bench was not there all season. What does another coach do differently that is bonafide fact? I respect your opinion and had it been known this bench could do all this perhaps you rethink but you don't have that luxury when it actually matters.

I think it’s indisputable that Thibs failed the bench this year. It’s OK to criticize the guy. At the end of the day he has us 2 wins from the Finals. But he made no effort to develop a bench all year long. His usage of the bench was simply to spot the starters a few minutes. Worst bench in the league by far in production and minutes. Shamet is a bench player on any team in the league and Payne was horrible 80% of the time yet was the only mainstay. Leon traded for Wright and he’s proven to be a much better and more stable fit off the bench yet never got a shot until we were down 0-2 in the ECF.

Mitch, Deuce, Cam, Shamet, Precious, Wright, Sims. Hukkporti, Dadiet, McCullar, Kolek. Gleague bros.

How did you come to your conclusion? Like, by what measure did the bench fail? I'm kinda lost on that. I dont think you are paying attention to the context at all.

They were the worst bench in the league based on points and minutes and 9th in net impact. Follow simple logic with those numbers and what does that tell you?

There was no strategy to develop one over the course of the season. We went with 7-8 guys all year and didn’t play guys who are helping us get back into this series now. We are playing combos in the ECF that never played a second together during the regular season.

I don’t know how anyone can refute that Thibs failed to develop a coherent bench this year. He’s still got us 2 wins from the Finals. It’s OK to have nuance.

Sorry but this is not normal: https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/nba-minutes-per-game-leaders-this-season

Clean wrote:

foosballnick wrote:Knicks lose = Fire Thibs

Knicks win = Thibs has changed and might now be safe

At Giants games the guys sitting in front of us for years would get ****-faced drunk every game and shout out "BENCH ELI" after every bad pass or interception....then would high-five and hug each other and hail Eli after a Touchdown or great play.

That does not explain me at all. I want him gone no matter what. This is the second playoffs in a row where bench players would have helped if he trusted them. Last year we played Burks too late to matter. This year it was close to being too late but we are finally trusting some players from our bench. Now think to yourself, if they can help in the Eastern Conference Finals why can't they help through the whole year? There was never a need to rely on our starters as much as he always does. That added to my normal problems with him and my stance is still the same. He also needs to be able to sit Hart when he is going brain dead.

While I'm no Thibs fanboy.....that was certainly an interesting take......

.....So if he manages to pull the series out and make it to the finals.....you want him gone.

.....If he manages then to win a Chip......you still want him gone (like you said....no matter what).

I almost feel bad as it does not seem like much fun for you as a fan.....seem more interesting in how you think things should be done over any results. You might have to end up even stepping away from the misery next season as its very likely Thibs will be back.

Also some of the rest of your response really has some interesting revisionist history.

For instance.....last season the team was down to about 6 playable NBA level guys by the end of the Pacers series.....and your ranting on about Burks being some type of savior against the Pacers as if it would have made a difference to make up for Randle's shoulder, Mitch's foot, JB's ankle and then broken hand, and OG's hamstring.

For this season - maybe you can be more specific.....I see a bench mostly filled with inexperience and mediocre journeymen.....some of whom actually played significant minutes at times during the regular season. Who exactly are you recommending from the group of rookies and transient players on the bench that would be helping this team win more in the playoffs and who's minutes (and how many minutes) are they taking away?

From my observation, Leon took a moon shot this season by bringing in KAT and Bridges as the expense of any kind of experienced roster talent/depth in order to stay under the 2nd Apron. Why haven't many fans factored in the potential real problem......maybe the Knicks bench is just not that talented? What am I missing that you seem to have unlocked about Thibs needing to play more of the following guys?

-Wright is 32 years old on his 10th team
-Shamet....27 career average ~21 mpg on 6 mostly crappy teams
-Kolek, Dadiet, Huk, McCuller......rookies ....and none have really come through as anything special (so far)when they did get changes
-Payne on his 7th team.....has looked fairly inneffective/lackluster so far in the playoffs.
-Maybe your thinking is that Tucker needs 20 minutes a night?

foosballnick wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

martin wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

Nalod wrote:Context of the moment.
Deuce had leg issues on and off.
Payne did play well early.
Dadiet and Kolek were tried. They did not perform.
Huk had injury issues early, then got it going, then got hurt. Thibs played him. There was a need.
We did have Sims off the bench.
Mitch had 20 games to get ready after being out 11 months.
Shamet shoulder was an issue.
Jalen missed 15 games in March.
It all matters in some form.
Precious in. Then he was out.
Minutes Police regret did not factor this year.

Now your not 100% wrong but what you have now on the bench was not there all season. What does another coach do differently that is bonafide fact? I respect your opinion and had it been known this bench could do all this perhaps you rethink but you don't have that luxury when it actually matters.

I think it’s indisputable that Thibs failed the bench this year. It’s OK to criticize the guy. At the end of the day he has us 2 wins from the Finals. But he made no effort to develop a bench all year long. His usage of the bench was simply to spot the starters a few minutes. Worst bench in the league by far in production and minutes. Shamet is a bench player on any team in the league and Payne was horrible 80% of the time yet was the only mainstay. Leon traded for Wright and he’s proven to be a much better and more stable fit off the bench yet never got a shot until we were down 0-2 in the ECF.

Mitch, Deuce, Cam, Shamet, Precious, Wright, Sims. Hukkporti, Dadiet, McCullar, Kolek. Gleague bros.

How did you come to your conclusion? Like, by what measure did the bench fail? I'm kinda lost on that. I dont think you are paying attention to the context at all.

They were the worst bench in the league based on points and minutes and 9th in net impact. Follow simple logic with those numbers and what does that tell you?

There was no strategy to develop one over the course of the season. We went with 7-8 guys all year and didn’t play guys who are helping us get back into this series now. We are playing combos in the ECF that never played a second together during the regular season.

I don’t know how anyone can refute that Thibs failed to develop a coherent bench this year. He’s still got us 2 wins from the Finals. It’s OK to have nuance.

Tells me that the bench talent is not good. But yea....Thibs is supposed to create chicken salad from chicken ****.

They were 9th in Net Differential. So when they played they actually did well. They just didn’t play and thus didn’t produce. And they are currently helping us win playoff games and winning their minutes here too.

blkexec wrote:

foosballnick wrote:Knicks lose = Fire Thibs

Knicks win = Thibs has changed and might now be safe

At Giants games the guys sitting in front of us for years would get ****-faced drunk every game and shout out "BENCH ELI" after every bad pass or interception....then would high-five and hug each other and hail Eli after a Touchdown or great play.

You just explained why NY is not for everybody, and only certain players / coaches can handle unexpected expectations. On top of that, we haven't won a chip in 52 yrs.

That still doesn't negate Thibs inability to adjust real time and to play his bench more, during the regular season. If he played the bench more, he would've played them in game 1. But now since we lose a close game, we've been digging ourselves out of a hole all series. Now we are backed into a corner with only one way out.

So playing Shamett and Wright helped us win. It's bad when you don't even know if Thibs will rince and repeat or continue to be stubborn and play HIS favorite starting 5. Nothing surprises me anymore with Thibs.

Fans are like that everywhere....not just NY. Fans can be overly emotional wrecks and impulsive. Their irrational thinking does not mean that the coach needs to fired after every loss.

Also Shamet and Wright are mediocre journeymen who have been in the NBA numerous years. They are taking Payne's minutes or others who are in foul trouble....which is fine . Benching Brunson, Hart, Bridges or Deuce in favor of those guys for any extended period in an ECF game seems silly - at least to me. The real issue is not bench minutes......it's the fact that both Brunson and KAT are minus defenders......and KAT in particular is missing rotations which is causing breakdowns on D and open looks for the Pacers. The Knicks roster is currently imbalanced as if you remove KAT or Brunson - you then suffer on O. It's fairly plain to me that the Knicks need a stronger back-up 2 Way PG to reduce JB's minutes next season. They also either need Mitch to get better at foul shooting....or....improve at back-up C on the offensive side.....Huk might be the answer but who knows at this point.

The young guys are just not there IMO (yet). Kolek is an even worse liability on D than JB. Dadiet seemed to play like a pretty untamed 19 year old. Huk I saw some potential - but he suffered a late season injury that might have curbed his development and Mc....who knows?

foosballnick wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

martin wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

Nalod wrote:Context of the moment.
Deuce had leg issues on and off.
Payne did play well early.
Dadiet and Kolek were tried. They did not perform.
Huk had injury issues early, then got it going, then got hurt. Thibs played him. There was a need.
We did have Sims off the bench.
Mitch had 20 games to get ready after being out 11 months.
Shamet shoulder was an issue.
Jalen missed 15 games in March.
It all matters in some form.
Precious in. Then he was out.
Minutes Police regret did not factor this year.

Now your not 100% wrong but what you have now on the bench was not there all season. What does another coach do differently that is bonafide fact? I respect your opinion and had it been known this bench could do all this perhaps you rethink but you don't have that luxury when it actually matters.

I think it’s indisputable that Thibs failed the bench this year. It’s OK to criticize the guy. At the end of the day he has us 2 wins from the Finals. But he made no effort to develop a bench all year long. His usage of the bench was simply to spot the starters a few minutes. Worst bench in the league by far in production and minutes. Shamet is a bench player on any team in the league and Payne was horrible 80% of the time yet was the only mainstay. Leon traded for Wright and he’s proven to be a much better and more stable fit off the bench yet never got a shot until we were down 0-2 in the ECF.

Mitch, Deuce, Cam, Shamet, Precious, Wright, Sims. Hukkporti, Dadiet, McCullar, Kolek. Gleague bros.

How did you come to your conclusion? Like, by what measure did the bench fail? I'm kinda lost on that. I dont think you are paying attention to the context at all.

They were the worst bench in the league based on points and minutes and 9th in net impact. Follow simple logic with those numbers and what does that tell you?

There was no strategy to develop one over the course of the season. We went with 7-8 guys all year and didn’t play guys who are helping us get back into this series now. We are playing combos in the ECF that never played a second together during the regular season.

I don’t know how anyone can refute that Thibs failed to develop a coherent bench this year. He’s still got us 2 wins from the Finals. It’s OK to have nuance.

Tells me that the bench talent is not good. But yea....Thibs is supposed to create chicken salad from chicken ****.

This is a style of play adjustment for the Pacers. Also it was time to bench Cam for Wright. We dont get any PG play but at least Delon is a defender. This wasnt has important in the first two series because Bos/Det dont run with the same depth. It hurt us. Coach adjusted. Lets see if it's too little too late.

I think we have a clear path to victory in these last 2 games (slow it down, make them grind)

DLeethal wrote:

martin wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

martin wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

Nalod wrote:Context of the moment.
Deuce had leg issues on and off.
Payne did play well early.
Dadiet and Kolek were tried. They did not perform.
Huk had injury issues early, then got it going, then got hurt. Thibs played him. There was a need.
We did have Sims off the bench.
Mitch had 20 games to get ready after being out 11 months.
Shamet shoulder was an issue.
Jalen missed 15 games in March.
It all matters in some form.
Precious in. Then he was out.
Minutes Police regret did not factor this year.

Now your not 100% wrong but what you have now on the bench was not there all season. What does another coach do differently that is bonafide fact? I respect your opinion and had it been known this bench could do all this perhaps you rethink but you don't have that luxury when it actually matters.

I think it’s indisputable that Thibs failed the bench this year. It’s OK to criticize the guy. At the end of the day he has us 2 wins from the Finals. But he made no effort to develop a bench all year long. His usage of the bench was simply to spot the starters a few minutes. Worst bench in the league by far in production and minutes. Shamet is a bench player on any team in the league and Payne was horrible 80% of the time yet was the only mainstay. Leon traded for Wright and he’s proven to be a much better and more stable fit off the bench yet never got a shot until we were down 0-2 in the ECF.

Mitch, Deuce, Cam, Shamet, Precious, Wright, Sims. Hukkporti, Dadiet, McCullar, Kolek. Gleague bros.

How did you come to your conclusion? Like, by what measure did the bench fail? I'm kinda lost on that. I dont think you are paying attention to the context at all.

They were the worst bench in the league based on points and minutes and 9th in net impact. Follow simple logic with those numbers and what does that tell you?

There was no strategy to develop one over the course of the season. We went with 7-8 guys all year and didn’t play guys who are helping us get back into this series now. We are playing combos in the ECF that never played a second together during the regular season.

I don’t know how anyone can refute that Thibs failed to develop a coherent bench this year. He’s still got us 2 wins from the Finals. It’s OK to have nuance.

Tells me that 1) the bench was hurt for most of the year and 2) the Knicks purposely chose to develop their young kids by not playing them.

Step back and ask yourself how do you develop Mitch, Shamet, Deuce, Cam and the rest and that'll tell you what happened.

It's not about refuting anything, it's about the reality of what is actually going on.

Developing a bench unit is different than developing an individual player on said bench. I'm not saying Thibs failed to develop Landry Shamet, a long time vet. I understand there were injuries, but you still develop a unit and you can swap players in and out of it. i.e. Precious and Mitch

Once Shamet came back from injury in December he should have been a mainstay in the bench lineup instead of being yoyo'ed in and out and really not getting a shot. And once Wright had his impressive run late in the season when Brunson and Payne were both out he should have never been removed from the rotation after that in favor of Payne again who was terrible since early season. We all saw that Wright should have stuck at that point. Precious is a good 3rd stringer and did his thing while Mitch was out. But we should have gone into the playoffs with Deuce, Wright, Shamet, Mitch which is a good bench and there was more than ample time and opportunity to do that but Thibs chose to roll with Payne, Deuce, and Mitch and Payne was so bad he wouldn't even give him second half minutes towards the end of the year so you essentially just put that onus back on the starters.

You are not sure why Shamet, after coming back from a rehabbed dislocated shoulder injury, may have taken some time to get back into solid rotation minutes and there was some yo yo’ing going on when he clearly looked a bit off and was both wearing shoulder protection thingy and constantly icing while on bench by but months 3 and 4 eclipsed 18 and 23 minutes per game?

It’s unfortunate that Precious himself sucked at the end of the year and Mitch was in and out of lineup because of back to backs while on a strict minutes diet and gearing up to get in shape while Deuce missed time exactly when Mitch was coming back.

You can quibble at the margins with Cam v Wright but riding Payne - while in hindsight his overall playoffs performance has been ****ty - he is exactly the guy that can also win you a playoff game in his backup minutes. He has been disappointing.

Idk your statement of Deuce, Mitch, Wright, Shamet as a unit having ample time to play together doesn’t meet reality IMHO. Not close. I hate Payne for his decision making and performance but not too many playoff coaches would have shut him down for Wright for the closure of the season as you suggest, just not how people within organizational systems work, and then there’s the hindsight of it all you are discounting.

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