Bonn1997 wrote:If you say I flip flop enough times...it still isn't true. I value WS and WP. Flip-flopping would mean that I only sometimes value them but you haven't established that to be the case.
You're presenting a new argument here about Kobe's shot totals in wins and losses. If you have data you want me to take a look at, I will.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakersnow/la-sp-ln-kobe-bryant-shooting-lakers-out-20121220,0,2359134.story

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:Is Bronn an official SomberMember???

I never thought so, he is a numbers man to me. He doesn't make **** up or change his standards to fit the player like other posters around here.

IDK. I am the most positive commentator here on Tyson's and Kidd's performances. When they are the topic of discussion, most posters here seem to be in the somber group to me

Say "Mr .470" quietly to yourself. In a positive way. Think happy thoughts about Denver rebuilding. Dream of draft picks and flexibility.

The sky is positively not falling!

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

3G4G wrote:Now Bonn show/prove that the individuals who hold votes for MVP voting use Win Shares and Wins Produce to make their selections?

Huh? I never said they did. They should but I never said they did.

As they should use other advanced stats. Look I'm not debating if Kobe isn't a better player than Melo I agree he is, even this season but Kobe shouldn't be in the Top 5 of MVP voting no matter what criteria should or shouldn't be used.

In all major sports, players from poor teams have gotten MVP votes if not the actual award (like A-Rod). If you feel the MVP needs to be on a very good team, I can respect that choice. Team record confounds the player's contribution with the contributions of his teammates, though. I prefer using an unconfounded assessment - just looking at the player's own performance.

BONN WHIle I agree somewhat, A-rod won MVP on a poor team because his numbers were great across the board, he was near the top if not the top in most categories, and his impact on the game was amazing.. he was filling stadiums wherever he went..

It seems as if most on this forum used the carmelo for MVP argument simply because the knicks were playing well, otherwise why would we even discuss carmelo in the MVP race as others have better overall stats....

so while kobe is a better player than carmelo.. that is not even an argument for me, and he is having a great scoring and shooting season, heck even rebounding and assist he is doing very well, his team is still not playing well and they have a lot of talent, even if he feels they are old.. It is hard to justify him as MVP at this point... this point!.. now if the lakers are a playoff team, then that may change.... but so far he is getting a lot of good numbers for himself, but what is it doing for his team? so far this guy has been anything but a leader with his comments.. it seems more divisive..

Stop it tkf! Stop it 3G4G!

You're not supposed to go against your Somberite brethren.

23-10. The edges of the League of Six are starting to fray. Positively hilarious stuff.

OGkush121 wrote:I used to mind people putting Melo down for no good reason in order to try to make a silly point and go into all kinds of trouble for it, but now it just makes me laugh.

I'm just enjoying the ride, Melo's playing amazing basketball and I don't have to look through every nook and crany to try to prove otherwise.
Melo's playing great, the Knicks are playing great.
Problem? well, there shouldn't be one but obviously there is :)

Oh and if you're going to continue to talk about Kobe just make another thread why don't you?

+1 OGkush

Somberista codespeak: talking about Kobe is stealth Melo hate.

TAKE OFF the love blinders... if you pay attention the argument against kobe actually helps carmelo.... yikes..

Did you actually just type "help carmelo"??????

Who are you and what have you done with tkf????? Identity theft is against the law in this country, you know...

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If you say I flip flop enough times...it still isn't true. I value WS and WP. Flip-flopping would mean that I only sometimes value them but you haven't established that to be the case.
You're presenting a new argument here about Kobe's shot totals in wins and losses. If you have data you want me to take a look at, I will.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakersnow/la-sp-ln-kobe-bryant-shooting-lakers-out-20121220,0,2359134.story

It's hard to know what to make of that. We can come up with many explanations other than the idea that Kobe's taking shots is causing the team to lose. (Maybe when the team is losing and he sees his teammates struggling, he then decides to shoot more?) The following players also are shooting less in wins than in losses: Lebron James, Carmelo Anthony (only a slight difference), Kevin Durant, Stephen Curry, Chris Bosh, and Zach Randolph

Not everything is quantified or qualified by metrics. At least not yet since the practice of sabermetrics in basketball is a small sample size in itself. 150 pages of validation data will look like a silly joke in 5 years when they will have +100,000 of pages and actually figure out how to better cross reference them.

Unfortunately with players like Kobe, there is no "is he dick" stat to see what he is doing to his team. Chemistry-killer is not a stat yet though I am sure they will compile enough data and AI to someday get closer.

If you just wanna be a pioneer at this point and lobby that this is more than what it is at this point, be my guest.

Kobe has messed up your position and always will.

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If you say I flip flop enough times...it still isn't true. I value WS and WP. Flip-flopping would mean that I only sometimes value them but you haven't established that to be the case.
You're presenting a new argument here about Kobe's shot totals in wins and losses. If you have data you want me to take a look at, I will.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakersnow/la-sp-ln-kobe-bryant-shooting-lakers-out-20121220,0,2359134.story

It's hard to know what to make of that. We can come up with many explanations other than the idea that Kobe's taking shots is causing the team to lose. (Maybe when the team is losing and he sees his teammates struggling, he then decides to shoot more?) The following players also are shooting less in wins than in losses: Lebron James, Carmelo Anthony (only a slight difference), Kevin Durant, Stephen Curry, Chris Bosh, and Zach Randolph

Not everything is quantified or qualified by metrics. At least not yet since the practice of sabermetrics in basketball is a small sample size in itself. 150 pages of validation data will look like a silly joke in 5 years when they will have +100,000 of pages and actually figure out how to better cross reference them.

Unfortunately with players like Kobe, there is no "is he dick" stat to see what he is doing to his team. Chemistry-killer is not a stat yet though I am sure they will compile enough data and AI to someday get closer.

If you just wanna be a pioneer at this point and lobby that this is more than what it is at this point, be my guest.

Kobe has messed up your position and always will.

You post a link to what I factual stated...the link shows in December, they were 12-14. When Kobe shoots over 20fga/gm Lakers are 4-11, when he shoots less than 20fga/gm they are 8-3...Since this time they have gone 3-4 with Nash back mind you and the numbers stay the course....

Kobe has blown his stance to smithereens

dk7th wrote:bryant is at a career high for 59.2TS% and a career-high 48FG% which is great
his usg/ast ratio is at his career average of 1.32 which is pretty good for a shooting guard
he is dishing out 4-5 assists a game which is good

but bryant takes 22 shots a game-- that's about 4-5 too many and is certainly one main problem with the lakers this season.

why is that too many?

for starters, he is no longer the focal point of a triangle offense, which stresses wing players as catalysts. brown had the wrong idea of running a princeton offense because it squanders nash and bryant's talents even if it slightly enhances gasol's-- as i understand the princeton offense it relies on a good passing big man in the high post and a weave above the circle. i could have that wrong.

meanwhile i think d'antoni has the right idea of wanting to fully utilize the pick and roll and the passing prowess of nash, especially with howard there, although i am not particularly smitten with howard's hands.

but outside of the triangle offense no player has any business taking more than 18 shots a game ideally. "ideally" means you have teammates who are capable of shooting the ball and making plays.

bryant 22 shots
howard 11 shots
gasol 12 shots
artest 11 shots
nash 8 shots

that imbalance is just not going to fly. the biggest disparity is nash -- still the best shooter in the nba-- taking only 8 shots a game.

bryant would be more useful to his team's cause if he were to take closer to 16 shots a game. but because he is a vain and clueless douche that is unlikely to happen.

This past December and current January

(Recent)11-26
15-25
14-29
9-18
13-24
14-24
16-41(Nash's Return)
11-24
12-21
9-29
10-24
16-28
9-24
11-24
10-17
14-31
(Oldest)12-27

LOL @ KOME MYSELF AND I. He's shooting 28FGA/gm since Nash's return DISGRACEPALM!....Hardy Har Har Har

Anji wrote:The New York Knicks' Carmelo Anthony and the Houston Rockets' James Harden today were named Eastern and Western Conference Players of the Week, respectively, for games played Monday, Dec. 31 through Sunday, Jan. 6.

Anthony, who topped the league in scoring at 36.0 ppg, led New York to a 2-1 week, including a home victory over the San Antonio Spurs. He bookended the week with a pair of 40-point performances against the Portland Trail Blazers on Jan. 1 and the Orlando Magic on Dec. 5. His 45 points against the Blazers tied this season's single-game high (accomplished three times, twice by Anthony and once by Harden).

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2013/01/07/carmelo-anthony-james-harden-new-york-knicks-houston-rockets-player-of-the-week/1814415/
3 for Lebron
2 for Durrant
2 for Carmelo
2 for Harden
1 for Paul

http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/awards/by_type/Player_Of_The_Week/30/2013

3G4G wrote:

dk7th wrote:bryant is at a career high for 59.2TS% and a career-high 48FG% which is great
his usg/ast ratio is at his career average of 1.32 which is pretty good for a shooting guard
he is dishing out 4-5 assists a game which is good

but bryant takes 22 shots a game-- that's about 4-5 too many and is certainly one main problem with the lakers this season.

why is that too many?

for starters, he is no longer the focal point of a triangle offense, which stresses wing players as catalysts. brown had the wrong idea of running a princeton offense because it squanders nash and bryant's talents even if it slightly enhances gasol's-- as i understand the princeton offense it relies on a good passing big man in the high post and a weave above the circle. i could have that wrong.

meanwhile i think d'antoni has the right idea of wanting to fully utilize the pick and roll and the passing prowess of nash, especially with howard there, although i am not particularly smitten with howard's hands.

but outside of the triangle offense no player has any business taking more than 18 shots a game ideally. "ideally" means you have teammates who are capable of shooting the ball and making plays.

bryant 22 shots
howard 11 shots
gasol 12 shots
artest 11 shots
nash 8 shots

that imbalance is just not going to fly. the biggest disparity is nash -- still the best shooter in the nba-- taking only 8 shots a game.

bryant would be more useful to his team's cause if he were to take closer to 16 shots a game. but because he is a vain and clueless douche that is unlikely to happen.

This past December and current January

(Recent)11-26
15-25
14-29
9-18
13-24
14-24
16-41(Nash's Return)
11-24
12-21
9-29
10-24
16-28
9-24
11-24
10-17
14-31
(Oldest)12-27

LOL @ KOME MYSELF AND I. He's shooting 28FGA/gm since Nash's return DISGRACEPALM!....Hardy Har Har Har

That is both impressive and scary for a guy his age!

Nobody 34 years old should ever ever ever ever ever ever ever

Repeat after me Bonn

ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever

ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever

shoot 41 times in a game. Not even God himself (Michael Jordan) when he was 34 years of age shot 41 times in a game in the regular season or playoffs.

Kobe is a selfish prick douchebag ******* coach killing chucker that is not only killing his team with his play but killing Bonn's WS/48 argument.

3G4G wrote:Carmelo Anthony EC Player of the week

James Harden WC Player of the week

http://www.nba.com/news/players-of-the-week-2012-13-season/index.html

Without question too.

45 points, 7 boards, 4 assists, 1 steal and only 2 turnovers against Portland.
23 points, 8 boards, 3 assists, 0 steals and only 2 turnovers against San Antonio.
40 points, 6 boards, 6 assists, 1 steal and only 1 turnovers against Orlando.

During those three games, Melo shot 35/73 from the field and 23/27 from the line.

Melo's offense can not be stopped. When focused and in the zone? His offensive ability is Michael Jordan like.