3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

3G4G wrote:When you place Kobe higher than he should be it makes Melo's case weaker. Not sure how you guys don't understand this.

Kobe should not be ranked in the top 30. He is killing his team with his selfishness.

Kobe and Melo are going in opposite directions.

Kobe is hitting shots at an excellent rate and passing very effectively. Old age is killing his team.

Kobe is getting his numbers at the expense of team success. You can be personally efficient and yet not play in a team aspect. Kobe takes unnecessary heat checks, still shoots over double triple teams, still trying to pull off trick shots. He's hitting a good portion of them at the expense of team chemistry which Dwight Howard says the team has none. Kobe needs to let Nash be Nash, let Howard be Howard, get Gasol the guy who really helped him get rings post Shaq era involved instead of telling him to put big boy pants on. And while blame can be placed on D'AnToni or Brown or whoever Kobe has been there the longest he knows what it takes to win but I'm pretty positive he doesn't care this year. Even James Worthy has called his play disgusting of late. Kobe endorsed D'AnToni over Phil which begs to question why? Kobe is loving his personal scoring accomplishments this year and to come no doubt about it.

I mean he recently commented to the press about how well he's playing and constantly big upping in state rival Clippers, while calling his team old. ROTFLOL @ this clown.

Nothing says Top 5 MVP about the above from him, nothing.

Bonn sorry Kobe is killing your stance and causing you to set a double standard.

Sorry but you have not provided any evidence that my claim is wrong. You're merely stating opinions but presenting them like facts.

So I ask you to present more to the table than just scoring efficiency

How about win shares and wins produced?

That's where it fails. I buy into these stats at some degree but the fact that it gives the same weight to last three shots of a game as it does to the first three shots of a game and that it does not/cannot account for team chemistry makes this fail in this scenario (IMHO).

This is the 80-20 rule where it is in the 20. Eye test wins out for kobe.

Or perhaps your view that 2 points later in the game count more than 2 points earlier in the game is flawed. Anyway, are you saying you give 80% weight to the stats and 20% to your personal observations (or the reverse)? If so, I would not object at all. It doesn't sound like you're giving the stats 80% of the weight in your evaluation of Kobe though.

If the stats are correct 80 percent of the time and incorrect 20 percent of the time, then kobe is part of the 20 percent.

As far as valuing the points, yes. I think the a last second basket should have a higher value than the first shot of the game. The fact that WS and WP don't account for clutch stats makes it flawed in this area.

A team can overcome a missed shot in the first quarter tie game however may not have the ability or opportunity to overcome a last second miss.

Well if you go by WP you would probably have an MVP race of

Chris Paul
Tyson Chandler
Anderson Varejao
Jason Kidd
Kevin Gurant
Lebron James

in that order based on players who play significant minutes.

I tend to favor using the WS48 WP48 average.

Ahhh you keep fragmenting a singular metric criteria

So which sites WS are you using Bonn to heavily weigh your argument? Here are 2 below with different formulated variables

http://hoopdata.com/advancedstats.aspx Sort the WS column

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2013_leaders.html What other stats are you ignoring on this link?

Bonn1997 wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

3G4G wrote:When you place Kobe higher than he should be it makes Melo's case weaker. Not sure how you guys don't understand this.

Kobe should not be ranked in the top 30. He is killing his team with his selfishness.

Kobe and Melo are going in opposite directions.

Kobe is hitting shots at an excellent rate and passing very effectively. Old age is killing his team.

Kobe is getting his numbers at the expense of team success. You can be personally efficient and yet not play in a team aspect. Kobe takes unnecessary heat checks, still shoots over double triple teams, still trying to pull off trick shots. He's hitting a good portion of them at the expense of team chemistry which Dwight Howard says the team has none. Kobe needs to let Nash be Nash, let Howard be Howard, get Gasol the guy who really helped him get rings post Shaq era involved instead of telling him to put big boy pants on. And while blame can be placed on D'AnToni or Brown or whoever Kobe has been there the longest he knows what it takes to win but I'm pretty positive he doesn't care this year. Even James Worthy has called his play disgusting of late. Kobe endorsed D'AnToni over Phil which begs to question why? Kobe is loving his personal scoring accomplishments this year and to come no doubt about it.

I mean he recently commented to the press about how well he's playing and constantly big upping in state rival Clippers, while calling his team old. ROTFLOL @ this clown.

Nothing says Top 5 MVP about the above from him, nothing.

Bonn sorry Kobe is killing your stance and causing you to set a double standard.

Sorry but you have not provided any evidence that my claim is wrong. You're merely stating opinions but presenting them like facts.

So I ask you to present more to the table than just scoring efficiency

How about win shares and wins produced?

That's where it fails. I buy into these stats at some degree but the fact that it gives the same weight to last three shots of a game as it does to the first three shots of a game and that it does not/cannot account for team chemistry makes this fail in this scenario (IMHO).

This is the 80-20 rule where it is in the 20. Eye test wins out for kobe.

Or perhaps your view that 2 points later in the game count more than 2 points earlier in the game is flawed. Anyway, are you saying you give 80% weight to the stats and 20% to your personal observations (or the reverse)? If so, I would not object at all. It doesn't sound like you're giving the stats 80% of the weight in your evaluation of Kobe though.

If the stats are correct 80 percent of the time and incorrect 20 percent of the time, then kobe is part of the 20 percent.

As far as valuing the points, yes. I think the a last second basket should have a higher value than the first shot of the game. The fact that WS and WP don't account for clutch stats makes it flawed in this area.

A team can overcome a missed shot in the first quarter tie game however may not have the ability or opportunity to overcome a last second miss.

Well if you go by WP you would probably have an MVP race of

Chris Paul
Tyson Chandler
Anderson Varejao
Jason Kidd
Kevin Gurant
Lebron James

in that order based on players who play significant minutes.

I tend to favor using the WS48 WP48 average.

Ahhh you keep fragmenting a singular metric criteria

So which sites WS are you using Bonn to heavily weigh your argument? Here are 2 below with different formulated variables

http://hoopdata.com/advancedstats.aspx Sort the WS column

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2013_leaders.html What other stats are you ignoring on this link?

The first site is win score, not win shares. I have not seen any validation data for win scores.

No singular sabermetric stat is validated as an end all to be all

but let's take a look at the formula breakdowns since you want to throw out eye tests

According to Hoopdata
Win Score=(Points)+(Rebounds)+(Steals)+(½Assists)+(½Blocked Shots)-(Field Goal Attempts)-(Turnovers)-½(Free Throw Attempts)-½Personal Fouls

According to BBR
Win Shares=(points produced) - 0.92 * (league points per possession) * (offensive possessions) & (points per win reduces to) 0.32 * (league points per game) * ((team pace) / (league pace))

which comes to.....(marginal offense) / (marginal points per win)

I think you try and take for the most part simplistic BBall rationale and get caught up in the trendy Math Games by Bloggers and whatnot maybe hoping to get noticed Hollinger style.

15-17 record bumps you out of the Top 5 you don't need sabermetrics to circumvent this. Kobe is nasty offensively though even at this late day and age.

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

3G4G wrote:When you place Kobe higher than he should be it makes Melo's case weaker. Not sure how you guys don't understand this.

Kobe should not be ranked in the top 30. He is killing his team with his selfishness.

Kobe and Melo are going in opposite directions.

Kobe is hitting shots at an excellent rate and passing very effectively. Old age is killing his team.

Kobe is getting his numbers at the expense of team success. You can be personally efficient and yet not play in a team aspect. Kobe takes unnecessary heat checks, still shoots over double triple teams, still trying to pull off trick shots. He's hitting a good portion of them at the expense of team chemistry which Dwight Howard says the team has none. Kobe needs to let Nash be Nash, let Howard be Howard, get Gasol the guy who really helped him get rings post Shaq era involved instead of telling him to put big boy pants on. And while blame can be placed on D'AnToni or Brown or whoever Kobe has been there the longest he knows what it takes to win but I'm pretty positive he doesn't care this year. Even James Worthy has called his play disgusting of late. Kobe endorsed D'AnToni over Phil which begs to question why? Kobe is loving his personal scoring accomplishments this year and to come no doubt about it.

I mean he recently commented to the press about how well he's playing and constantly big upping in state rival Clippers, while calling his team old. ROTFLOL @ this clown.

Nothing says Top 5 MVP about the above from him, nothing.

Bonn sorry Kobe is killing your stance and causing you to set a double standard.

Sorry but you have not provided any evidence that my claim is wrong. You're merely stating opinions but presenting them like facts.

So I ask you to present more to the table than just scoring efficiency

How about win shares and wins produced?

That's where it fails. I buy into these stats at some degree but the fact that it gives the same weight to last three shots of a game as it does to the first three shots of a game and that it does not/cannot account for team chemistry makes this fail in this scenario (IMHO).

This is the 80-20 rule where it is in the 20. Eye test wins out for kobe.

Or perhaps your view that 2 points later in the game count more than 2 points earlier in the game is flawed. Anyway, are you saying you give 80% weight to the stats and 20% to your personal observations (or the reverse)? If so, I would not object at all. It doesn't sound like you're giving the stats 80% of the weight in your evaluation of Kobe though.

If the stats are correct 80 percent of the time and incorrect 20 percent of the time, then kobe is part of the 20 percent.

As far as valuing the points, yes. I think the a last second basket should have a higher value than the first shot of the game. The fact that WS and WP don't account for clutch stats makes it flawed in this area.

A team can overcome a missed shot in the first quarter tie game however may not have the ability or opportunity to overcome a last second miss.

Well if you go by WP you would probably have an MVP race of

Chris Paul
Tyson Chandler
Anderson Varejao
Jason Kidd
Kevin Gurant
Lebron James

in that order based on players who play significant minutes.

I tend to favor using the WS48 WP48 average.

Ahhh you keep fragmenting a singular metric criteria

So which sites WS are you using Bonn to heavily weigh your argument? Here are 2 below with different formulated variables

http://hoopdata.com/advancedstats.aspx Sort the WS column

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2013_leaders.html What other stats are you ignoring on this link?

The first site is win score, not win shares. I have not seen any validation data for win scores.

No singular sabermetric stat is validated as an end all to be all

but let's take a look at the formula breakdowns since you want to throw out eye tests

According to Hoopdata
Win Score=(Points)+(Rebounds)+(Steals)+(½Assists)+(½Blocked Shots)-(Field Goal Attempts)-(Turnovers)-½(Free Throw Attempts)-½Personal Fouls

According to BBR
Win Shares=(points produced) - 0.92 * (league points per possession) * (offensive possessions) & (points per win reduces to) 0.32 * (league points per game) * ((team pace) / (league pace))

which comes to.....(marginal offense) / (marginal points per win)

I think you try and take for the most part simplistic BBall rationale and get caught up in the trendy Math Games by Bloggers and whatnot maybe hoping to get noticed Hollinger style.

15-17 record bumps you out of the Top 5 you don't need sabermetrics to circumvent this. Kobe is nasty offensively though even at this late day and age.

So now you do realize that they're different statistics that just have the same acronym? I'm not sure what your other points are. A simple "my bad" comment or "oops!" would have been sufficient.

yellowboy90 wrote:I leave this quote about Duncan and WP and how dumb it is.

Tyson Chandler vs Tim Duncan

Chandler shoots 74% at the rim on 5.8 attempts, 70.9 % assisted.
http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Tyson%20Chandler

Duncan shoots 73.4% at the rim on 4.8 attempts, 64.7 % assisted
http://hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Tim%20Duncan

This year, Duncan has a higher reb %, much higher assist %, higher steal %, a MUCH higher block %, a lower tunrover %, a higher +/- and plays on a team with a higher point differential …..

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chandty01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duncati01/on-off/2013/

By all measures, Duncan is doing everything better than Chandler this year, and in many categories, by a huge margin.

Yet, Chandler has a .333 WP/48 and Duncan a .263 WP/48.

Duncan, playing on the best offense in the NBA, is severely punished for the 8 extra shots he takes that Chandler doesn’t take.

The funniest part of all this: Duncan shoots those 8 shots at higher than normal efficiency compared to the average pf/center.

Duncan, according to WP, isn’t near the player Chandler is despite doing everything better than Chandler, because Duncan takes shots that are actually good for the offense.

That is insane.

Basically. Can't put too much weight into Win Shares Produced or any advanced metric, doesn't tell the whole story.

You got guys like Andre Drummond and Anderson Varejao who are putting up superefficient numbers, but their team's winning percentage tells a different story.

Kobe Bryant putting up monster numbers, but on a bad team.

How can you have a high "Win Shares Produced" if your team doesn't win?

Flawed statistic, eyeball test wins everytime.

Now Bonn show/prove that the individuals who hold votes for MVP voting use Win Shares and Wins Produce to make their selections?

3G4G wrote:Now Bonn show/prove that the individuals who hold votes for MVP voting use Win Shares and Wins Produce to make their selections?

jrodmc wrote:No wonder more quantum physicists commit suicide than almost any other doctoral positions.
The numbers will obviously drive you insane, sooner or later.
Infinite number sets. Black holes. Acretion disks.

It's nice to be precise; but it's scary bein crazy.

Melo is a monster. JR is another. Copes and Prigs are starting to mutate as well.

23-10. 7 games ahead of the Celts for the division.

I'm a simple man.

Is there a way to combine your posting ability with Anubis' endless bag of Gifs??? Because I would sign up and follow that **** all the TweettumblrInstaFace+ Day!!!!

jrodmc wrote:

Anji wrote:

jrodmc wrote:No wonder more quantum physicists commit suicide than almost any other doctoral positions.
The numbers will obviously drive you insane, sooner or later.
Infinite number sets. Black holes. Acretion disks.

It's nice to be precise; but it's scary bein crazy.

Melo is a monster. JR is another. Copes and Prigs are starting to mutate as well.

23-10. 7 games ahead of the Celts for the division.

I'm a simple man.

Is there a way to combine your posting ability with Anubis' endless bag of Gifs??? Because I would sign up and follow that **** all the TweettumblrInstaFace+ Day!!!!

Thanks, but I spend way too much time online whenever I try to get graphical with the posting.

That's why you outsource, putting down the sombers shouldn't be a one man job.