Panos wrote:

VDesai wrote:

Panos wrote:

Clean wrote:I totally forgot I posted that Clip. I think you guys are conflating 2 things. He never said no one is playing well. He said they are not in their best position to be the best version of themselves. Lets take a look at each player for a second.

Kat
KAT is best played in a lineup with a mobile defensive big on D and on offense is best when played in a 5 out system because that opens things up for everyone. Right now his defense sucks and we are not getting use out of him on offense like we expected because he is teamed with Hart and team just stick the center on him. His tendency is to drive to the hoop but that gets him in trouble because we are not 5 players out and the paint is always clogged. Kat is talented enough so he wil get numbers but he is not being put in the best position.

Hart
Having a career year but him being in as a starter mean the offense is clogged. He often gets put in lineups with Mitch and Precious. We almost always lose those minutes. Hart with the paint clogged goes periods where all he can do is shoot open 3's and hope he is making them that night. However, I think this problem is a Hart problem with the exception of the times Thibs plays him with 2 other non shooters. That is just pure idiotic.

OG and Bridges
OG and Bridges are kind of the same deal. They are finishers that are best when attacking a closeout or shooting after a playmaker set them up with an open shot. OG has added the rip through move and the euro step and that has increased his bag but if you notice he is still being setup with Brunson out. Bridges has become our playmaker in this new reality. Bridges is not the best playmaker but the best we have now that Brunson is out. Bridges and OG both go long periods without touching the ball because the later the game gets the more Bruncen centric out offense gets. It is why once Brunson is playing they take huge steps backwards. Both would do better in an offense with spacing and movement. In 2nd halfs they are stuck in ISO offense with clogged paint because of non shooters also on the court.

Brunson
Brunson is a great player and will play great in any situation but he would be best in a 5 out offense. We never play him in that because there is always a non shooter with him. We have no idea what his best is because we never seen it.

I am sure many won't agree and that's fine but its best we have a debate on what he actually said. I was going to do everyone but my interest went down fast LOL.

TLDR your main issue is that Hart is not a great shooter and thus it's not a 5 out offense. So all these other four players are not being put in position to be their best selves because of one player on the floor, who by the way, gets the most assists and gets all the rebounds that OG and Mikal should be getting?
Is that it?

I think the "smart" Knick fan narrative is that problems would be solved by swapping Deuce for Hart because of the shooting, and that Hart's minutes why we can't maximize the offense. There's A LOT of things Hart can do that Deuce doesn't do well. Hart is a better rebounder, secondary playmaker, ball handler and transition finisher. You may gain in one spot, and lose in others. I don't think it's the magic bullet some may think. The offense hummed at times with Hart being a triple double machine on the floor. It comes down to decisiveness with the ball and making the next play - whether its taking an open shot or attacking the space or making the next pass. He did it well earlier in the year, and has been less effective lately. Part of it is also attacking the way teams defend us, so you bring Hart into the action early - have him initiate with Brunson off ball. Have him run pick and roll with Brunson. To me, this is what I would ask the coach to lean into more. And yes, Josh needs to turn it up and be more decisive. But a lot of players have to do more or do something better. Bridges needs way more aggression. KAT needs to stop complaining about fouls and stay focused, etc.

Right, except you put Deuce in, and you just got small, and not enough rebounding. I've advocated elsewhere to start JB, Deuce, OG, KAT, Mitch, as a balanced lineup with shooting and defense, which also is not 5-out. Why are we suddenly so sure that 5-out is the magic elixir? And if so, we don't have the roster for it - you'll have to trade Hart for Derrick White.

I still stand by this from 4/3/25

fishmike wrote:

martin wrote:Somewhere out there in the wilderness of Reddit or RealGM, there is a Fire Mazzulla thread where posters are asking why Joe just can't adjust?

yup... both Det and Boston are good teams and they made moves to beat us and Thibs made all the right calls.

Assuming we put Boston away (no gimmie) we got the Pacers and Carlisle and honestly that's another coaching matchup in our favor. They are a deeper team so interesting to see how the rotations play out and if that helps or hurts us

And Leon made moves to beat them.

Yeah, I can see Celtic fans saying if they had a more seasoned veteran coach with a defensive mindset like Thibs, they wouldn't have lived and died by the 3. Just like Knick fans wish they had a young coach with a new school (lit it fly) type of offensive coach.

The point is, trying to satisfy a fan, will drive you in circles. This is why I appreciate this FO. They seem to ignore the noise, put their heads down and continue marching forward in the direction they see fit to build a multi championship team.

fishmike wrote:

blkexec wrote:

fishmike wrote:

martin wrote:Somewhere out there in the wilderness of Reddit or RealGM, there is a Fire Mazzulla thread where posters are asking why Joe just can't adjust?

yup... both Det and Boston are good teams and they made moves to beat us and Thibs made all the right calls.

Assuming we put Boston away (no gimmie) we got the Pacers and Carlisle and honestly that's another coaching matchup in our favor. They are a deeper team so interesting to see how the rotations play out and if that helps or hurts us

And Leon made moves to beat them.

Yeah, I can see Celtic fans saying if they had a more seasoned veteran coach with a defensive mindset like Thibs, they wouldn't have lived and died by the 3. Just like Knick fans wish they had a young coach with a new school (lit it fly) type of offensive coach.

The point is, trying to satisfy a fan, will drive you in circles. This is why I appreciate this FO. They seem to ignore the noise, put their heads down and continue marching forward in the direction they see fit to build a multi championship team.

how does Thibs not let it fly? No good coach wants you taking bad shots. Seems like Thibs values aggressive play on offense above all else.

You might have missed this part.

"trying to satisfy a fan, will drive you in circles."

But I honestly don't know what Thibs prefers on offense, other than "make the right play guys".

ramtour420 wrote:This is our chance to get rid of Thibs. Lose to Boston in 7. We will not win a Championship without unlocking an offense. I don't want to waste Brunson's prime because Thibs cannot coach a freaking pass.

Thibs would get fired for taking the Champs to seven games in the playoffs? YOu serious?

GustavBahler wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:This is our chance to get rid of Thibs. Lose to Boston in 7. We will not win a Championship without unlocking an offense. I don't want to waste Brunson's prime because Thibs cannot coach a freaking pass.

He's done enough to earn another season. The FO can look to level up the coaching staff. Fill in some of the gaps schematically in the offense. ISO has been a crutch in losses and some wins.

If we can somehow unlock the offense with passing I am all for keeping Thibs. He has the Knicks playing with heart and confidence. Zero easy buckets tho, zero flow. Every shot is difficult.

2nd quarter- bench unit opens up and 8 pt lead and is playing well. He's riding them for a while. Then Boston starts a run. Great place to call time out when they cut it to 2 or 3 pts, but he doesn't do it. Brunson left on the bench too long. Team gets unsettled and its a close game again when it seemed we were on the verge of being able to open up a nice lead.

3rd quarter- the starting unit for what has to be the 40th time this year comes out like a sack of crap in the 2nd half. He calls not one but TWO timeouts, but leaves the exact same unit in the game. Meanwhile if you look at the first half, you can make a very strong argument that the two best players on the floor for the Knicks were Mitch and Deuce. Why do we have to wait to get down 15 points in the quarter to get one of these guys in?

4th quarter- game is already probably lost here, but why have Brunson start the quarter with 5 fouls. They were clearly hunting Brunson, trying to get Brown matched up on him to get him into foul trouble. Give Brunson a breather here, see if you can put in a defensive lineup and stop Boston's run and then let Brunson come in if you can get the game close and see if you can lean on his scoring. Starting him in the 4th guaranteed a foul out and of course that's what happened.

In two his best coaching games- Game 1 against DET and Game 4 vs. BOS he ran with lineups that were working and didn't forcefeed his starters. Do we need get Josh to get into foul trouble for Thibs to give us a lineup that features Mitch and/or Deuce more frequently? It seems he won't do that unless he literally can't Josh push on the floor.

blkexec wrote:

VDesai wrote:IF you have a Thibs in game quibbles last night I think there's two-thre places where it broke down.

2nd quarter- bench unit opens up and 8 pt lead and is playing well. He's riding them for a while. Then Boston starts a run. Great place to call time out when they cut it to 2 or 3 pts, but he doesn't do it. Brunson left on the bench too long. Team gets unsettled and its a close game again when it seemed we were on the verge of being able to open up a nice lead.

3rd quarter- the starting unit for what has to be the 40th time this year comes out like a sack of crap in the 2nd half. He calls not one but TWO timeouts, but leaves the exact same unit in the game. Meanwhile if you look at the first half, you can make a very strong argument that the two best players on the floor for the Knicks were Mitch and Deuce. Why do we have to wait to get down 15 points in the quarter to get one of these guys in?

4th quarter- game is already probably lost here, but why have Brunson start the quarter with 5 fouls. They were clearly hunting Brunson, trying to get Brown matched up on him to get him into foul trouble. Give Brunson a breather here, see if you can put in a defensive lineup and stop Boston's run and then let Brunson come in if you can get the game close and see if you can lean on his scoring. Starting him in the 4th guaranteed a foul out and of course that's what happened.

In two his best coaching games- Game 1 against DET and Game 4 vs. BOS he ran with lineups that were working and didn't forcefeed his starters. Do we need get Josh to get into foul trouble for Thibs to give us a lineup that features Mitch and/or Deuce more frequently? It seems he won't do that unless he literally can't Josh push on the floor.

Stubborn old Thibs was back to his old tricks in game 5.
Also this team was built specifically to beat Tatum and brown. That’s easier to do than a passing team of 3pt shooters and kornet who’s leaving hart open and playing 5 on 4. No wonder kornet looked like mutumbo. I love hart but if they putting a center on hart we need to sit him down and put in deuce. That would force kornet to guard somebody instead of playing zone. Hart is a liability in half court. If we not running his impact drops.

Question still remains. Will Thibs adjust? Or will JB just take over and bring this home regardless of Thibs and hart. I believe that’s why hart is setting so many picks. But it’s causing the offense to look clunky in half court, takes the ball out of OG hands and we go away from towns in the post.

Sorry but this is a narrative/agenda and it sucks.
Stubborn old Thibs was back to his old tricks in game 5.

Hopefully stubborn old Brunson doesnt play hero ball and is more of a PG and stubborn old OG stretches before the game so he doesnt get hurt and play slow and stubborn old Mikal doesnt save his best until the end and stubborn old KAT doesnt commit stupid fouls and stubborn old Hart shoots every time he's open and makes it.

I got it covered?

EwingsGlass wrote:

fishmike wrote:

blkexec wrote:

VDesai wrote:IF you have a Thibs in game quibbles last night I think there's two-thre places where it broke down.

2nd quarter- bench unit opens up and 8 pt lead and is playing well. He's riding them for a while. Then Boston starts a run. Great place to call time out when they cut it to 2 or 3 pts, but he doesn't do it. Brunson left on the bench too long. Team gets unsettled and its a close game again when it seemed we were on the verge of being able to open up a nice lead.

3rd quarter- the starting unit for what has to be the 40th time this year comes out like a sack of crap in the 2nd half. He calls not one but TWO timeouts, but leaves the exact same unit in the game. Meanwhile if you look at the first half, you can make a very strong argument that the two best players on the floor for the Knicks were Mitch and Deuce. Why do we have to wait to get down 15 points in the quarter to get one of these guys in?

4th quarter- game is already probably lost here, but why have Brunson start the quarter with 5 fouls. They were clearly hunting Brunson, trying to get Brown matched up on him to get him into foul trouble. Give Brunson a breather here, see if you can put in a defensive lineup and stop Boston's run and then let Brunson come in if you can get the game close and see if you can lean on his scoring. Starting him in the 4th guaranteed a foul out and of course that's what happened.

In two his best coaching games- Game 1 against DET and Game 4 vs. BOS he ran with lineups that were working and didn't forcefeed his starters. Do we need get Josh to get into foul trouble for Thibs to give us a lineup that features Mitch and/or Deuce more frequently? It seems he won't do that unless he literally can't Josh push on the floor.

Stubborn old Thibs was back to his old tricks in game 5.
Also this team was built specifically to beat Tatum and brown. That’s easier to do than a passing team of 3pt shooters and kornet who’s leaving hart open and playing 5 on 4. No wonder kornet looked like mutumbo. I love hart but if they putting a center on hart we need to sit him down and put in deuce. That would force kornet to guard somebody instead of playing zone. Hart is a liability in half court. If we not running his impact drops.

Question still remains. Will Thibs adjust? Or will JB just take over and bring this home regardless of Thibs and hart. I believe that’s why hart is setting so many picks. But it’s causing the offense to look clunky in half court, takes the ball out of OG hands and we go away from towns in the post.

It's Thibs? Really? It' not the Celtics championship caliber defense that's making the Knicks half court look clunky? I thought you played basketball. Is your offensive game always the same no matter who guards you?

Sorry but this is a narrative/agenda and it sucks.
Stubborn old Thibs was back to his old tricks in game 5.

Hopefully stubborn old Brunson doesnt play hero ball and is more of a PG and stubborn old OG stretches before the game so he doesnt get hurt and play slow and stubborn old Mikal doesnt save his best until the end and stubborn old KAT doesnt commit stupid fouls and stubborn old Hart shoots every time he's open and makes it.

I got it covered?

What would you say Thib's greatest strength's and greatest weaknesses are. I ask not to antagonize, but your arguments are quire faithful to Thibodeau. Nothing you said about the players is specifically wrong, but its also not entire truths. I could accept a narrative where Thibs is giving Brunson a long leash to get his game going and Brunson is trying to fight through a tough defensive scheme. That leads to him using up 10-12 seconds of clock before passing up the ball to his teammates with the defense already into their half court set. I can get the OG narrative to a degree, that his health has been an issue throughout his career. And 1-9 wasn't doing our cause justice. But I am a OG advocate in that his defense changes games without the ball in his hands and I think he should be rewarded with offensive sets that culminate with him taking a corner 3. Ball movement intended to get him a positive look. I accept the Mikal argument about getting started, but if you have a 7 foot wingspan on Brunson (Brown), why aren't you letting Mikal initiate the offense instead. His half court/midrange game is nearly as viable as Brunson's - more so when Brunson is facing a 7'0+ wingspan. Why isn't Hart bringing the ball up like he did in Philly when when Oubre had him locked on reach alone? KAT's fouls is something to watch. I'm a fan and give him more benefit of the doubt than most, but why in hell is he only given the ball at the top of the key? If Horford and Kornet are their only active bigs, why isn't KAT feasting? Yeah, he has to shut up and play, but give the man the ball. He is unilaterally the Knick's greatest mismatch even if he is not the most clutch. KAT should start. Brunson should finish. Hart is heart. He's not perfect, but the Celts plan is to make him beat us. Give him the ball and let him do what he does - get to the basket in transition.

But. What are Thibs greatest strengths and weaknesses is the question. How do we turn weaknesses into strengths?

Wins. The locker room. Player development. In game adjustments. I would say those 4 things are the most important and Thibs strong points.

When he clearly underperforms or loses the locker room lets have the chat. Right now the guy is delivering but you all sound like you don't like him because of how he tucks in his pants or his drinks have fruity garnishes.

blkexec wrote:If Thibs offensive scheme is the reason why towns doesn’t shoot 3s in this series, we in trouble. Why? Because our 3pt defense sucks and Boston shoots double the amount of 3s and makes more 3s. If we trying to muscle up 2s in traffic vs them shooting a heavy volume of 3s we are cooked.

Every team has committed to stopping KAT from shooting 3s. Yes he's burned them in the post. He scored at will on Tatum. At this point we can work on getting him the ball in the post but this is also now the 2nd or 3rd action they will run.

My love for Thibs is purely reactionary for how he's treat vs. what he does and brings. He's a top 5 coach in this league. He's human. They all are. But Thibs is a BB crackhead and Leon got him a bunch of guys who love to cook so really my point is just let them. They are a great fit and all hold each other accountable. Thibs owns everything.

The things being brought up against Thibs (like KAT not shooting enough 3s) tells me you are watching the box scores and not the games. It's easily been one of their main strategies. We have not always been able to make them pay for having Horford on OG/Josh and some of that is for coach to adjust and some of that is on the players.

Looking at 2 rounds of playoffs havent Thib's adjustments been pretty good? Aside from the bad game 5 we have been the better team in the 2nd half in both series.