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TheloniusMonk
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5/16/2005  12:17 AM
Posted by Marv:

Any of you guys watching Nash tonight? He's scoring like crazy because the Suns need his points with JJ out and Amare being taken out of his game by the Dallas D. I think tonight and the last game too without JJ are good examples of why his scoring average during the regular season should be taken in context of his being a pass-first PG and not as an indication of his ability to score.

If I remember, Allan Houston droped a pair of 50 point games as well. Nash has scored almost 30 in the last game and now over 40 points. But don't blow it out of proportion. This does not mean that he would have consistantly done this throughout the course of a season. Shaq is out and Wade scored over 40. This obviously doesn't mean the man would score at will (moreso than he already does) just because Shaq would be missing. But my beef with Nash has not been scoring. It's defense. I just feel that an MVP needs to be just as important on both ends of the floor.

Furthermore, Dallas won this game because they played team offense and team defense. Nash's performance was very Iverson circa '98. Shoot so much until everyone else on your team is cold when they DO get the opportunity to score. In that 3rd and 4th quarter Nash shot enough for both teams I'd say. That's why, even though I hate the Nets, I still believe that a healthy Jason Kidd is a much better point guard than Nash. He plays at BOTH ENDS and no matter what, Kidd will not be a ball hog. Maybe for stretches but he would NOT let his teammates get cold even IF they're short a few men. He'd just make the men who are there better.

Nash has had his Crawford 50 point game. Woooohoooo!

....and against a team that is NOT known for defense by any stretch of the imagination.
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manilaballer
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5/16/2005  12:20 AM
MVP game for Nash... and Suns lose

Anyway, looking at the last two Heat games I guess indirectly justifies Nash's award. It's becoming more evident tht the heat can win (I said they can, not that they are necessarily a better team) without Shaq, and that Wade is really the best player on that team. Putting up big numbers in the playoffs, when the stakes are high and the competition intense. Nash and Wade are both getting it done. Wade for MVP? Let the Wade jocking begin!

That being said though, the Heat are in trouble if Shaq's not 100% come the conference and NBA finals.

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TheloniusMonk
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5/16/2005  12:34 AM
9 turnovers and 5 assists???

I don't know fellas
'You can catch me in Hollis at the hero shop!' -Tony Yayo
Marv
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5/16/2005  1:22 AM
Well I'd say that there were a few things about this game that stand out re: Nash's performance:

1. He didn't come out looking to score. He came out looking for Amare. Dallas switched up D's, surrounded Amare. Amare couldn't score, got flustered, and was ineffective.

2. No one else on Phoenix took up the slack. Q was in foul trouble and his shot was off. Marion was okay but he hardly took up Joe Johnson's slack, never mind Amare's.

3. Phoenix couldn't run - they were getting clobbered on their defensive boards for one thing, and Dallas was getting back for another.

4. So as the game's going on and Phoenix is getting routed, and abslutely nothing is working with their offense, then Nash takes it on to score. What should he do, continue with something that's not working and give the game away?

5. And then when he does, he puts on a phenomenal unreal display. 20 -for-28!!! When everyone knew he was going to be the one having to score!

That was a phenomenal performance, a joy to watch for a bball fan. And I'm rooting AGAINST Phenix, but his performance was exhilirating. And yes, of course you're right, TMonk, that he's not gonna always score like that. And that's not his game either. But I'd say under the circumstatces, when you have to take the game in your hands to try to bring your team back, and everyone knows you're doing it, and you go 20-for-28 (!!!) doing it, that's pretty special in most peoples' book.
gunsnewing
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5/16/2005  1:26 AM
the defense that dallas was playing allowed Nash to score big.

who would you rather have Nash or Kidd? Nash is a lot better offensively and you wouldn't mind him taking a last shot whereeas Kidd has bricked big shot after big shot in the playoffs.

But then once you take into consideration that Nash plays absolutely no defense and kidd is a very good defender you lean more towards Kidd. Except Kidd really needs a dominant frontcourt player or a shooter
Killa4luv
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5/16/2005  2:07 AM
That defensiv scheme was ingenius.

Avery johnson should get alot of props for that esp. as a rookie coach.

They gave Nash alot of layups, but he also hit some very tough shots. His fade away jumper is mean!

I always thought they should make Nash score, but I didn't think he would score this much tho.

All those guys need Nash to score except JJ and he's out. They didn't get alot of those open 3's I found it simply incredible how they were able to cdouble Amare and still contest those 3's.

Phoenix needs to go down.

Dirk's stock has to be falling, he played well tonight, but he is supposed to be their best player and he hasn't won a game for them yet. He is not playing like a big time player.
Nalod
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5/16/2005  9:49 AM
He is the MVP, Allan never came close, and Crawful is not even in the neighborhood!

PHX lost the game. Neat defense, they never doubled Nash, and nobody could stop him one on one! That third quarter was a thing of beauty.

MVPs do that in PLAYOFF GAMES. Not meaningless chuckfests.

A great performence, but not a victory so its not one for the ages.

I think Dell Harris gets some props for that defense.

Any thoughts about Amare getting MVP must be cleared in this series that Nash creates alot of his space to do what he does best. Kinda like what Kidd did for K-mart.
Nalod
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5/16/2005  9:53 AM
Nash's performence reminded me of what Bobby Hurley could have grown into. It has taken years for nash to grow up and get strong enough to do what he does. Bobby only had his rookie year and showed some promise. Points are not easily adapted from college to the pro's, but Hurly had that kind of sick energy and intensity demonstrated by Nash. IN fact, he had more.

Its tought to always project what could have been if he did not have that car wreck, but Bobby was a sick puppy and could have been a great point.

Duke point guards drafted in the lottery should not drive their own vehicles! Duhan should be very careful!
diderotn
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5/16/2005  10:05 AM
Marb has had performances like that before, although he has yet to do such things in a playoff game, but that is no big deal. Especially if that performance doesn't warrant a W.....

Posted by Nalod:

Nash's performence reminded me of what Bobby Hurley could have grown into. It has taken years for nash to grow up and get strong enough to do what he does. Bobby only had his rookie year and showed some promise. Points are not easily adapted from college to the pro's, but Hurly had that kind of sick energy and intensity demonstrated by Nash. IN fact, he had more.

Its tought to always project what could have been if he did not have that car wreck, but Bobby was a sick puppy and could have been a great point.

Duke point guards drafted in the lottery should not drive their own vehicles! Duhan should be very careful!
The true Knickabocker..........
Nalod
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5/16/2005  10:18 AM
DON't be so quick to blow off a playoff performance like that. Sure Marbs can do it, but he has yet to.

Why is Nash's game so threatening to Marbury lovers? What he is doning does not diminish Marbs game. The dude had a nice season.

The thing is, Marbs does not dish the ball like Nash does. Nash proved last nite his value as he torched them, but Dallas took his team out!

Same thing can be said about shaq, let him have his game and keep it close. Shaq needs the ball to be effective, and he has tired in 4 quarters.

back to Marbs-Nash, bottom line is Suns are still in the game, nash is either carrying the team on its back, or leading them. He proved he can score if need be.

It will be interesting to see how PHX adapts.
franco12
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5/16/2005  10:26 AM
Nash is an incredible shooter.

Marbs certainly is stronger, but look at the way Nash got into the lane last night and hit left handed scoop half hook shots all night long.

You look at Nash and you see a guy that's not especially built, with no leaping ability, but he gets into the paint whenever he wants to and hits shots in the paint.
diderotn
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5/16/2005  10:55 AM
I don't want to make this a Nash Vs Marb type of argument, but Marb and Nash have similar games. Nash is tad bit better at creating for others, but I wouldn't even say that, because Nash has better athletes around him than Marb does. When you have shooters like Marion/Q/Joe Johnson and others, it makes your job easier. Who does Marb have as shooters???? Kurt is the only consistant shooter in our team....

Posted by franco12:

Nash is an incredible shooter.

Marbs certainly is stronger, but look at the way Nash got into the lane last night and hit left handed scoop half hook shots all night long.

You look at Nash and you see a guy that's not especially built, with no leaping ability, but he gets into the paint whenever he wants to and hits shots in the paint.
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Allanfan20
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5/16/2005  11:13 AM
The Dallas Mavericks literally gave Nash most of his points on a silverplatter last night. When he droves, the defender started dropping off to Amare. They could have cared less about his jump shots, b/c he literally didn't take many. They took away his 3, as well as everyone elses. You can't take away that Nash can be a great scorer, but last night was overrated. I was very dissapointed in Marion, b/c he should have asserted himself more and he should have posted up a lot more, knowing that they were taking Amare out of the game. He's the guy that can school anyone on the Mavs roster, including Howard. And it is clear that not during the regular season, but during the playoffs, that Joe Johnson has been every bit of the MVP of that team as Amare and Nash b/c he can do just about everything from the 1-3 positions. He was needed for his defense, shooting, passing, penetration and shot creation. They desperately need him.

I was dissapointed in the Suns last night.
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manilaballer
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5/18/2005  11:34 PM
triple double for nash and it's only the 3rd Q! he's a great player and he deserves that MVP. specially if suns win this game, crucial.
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TheloniusMonk
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5/19/2005  12:33 AM
Posted by manilaballer:

triple double for nash and it's only the 3rd Q! he's a great player and he deserves that MVP. specially if suns win this game, crucial.

Too bad the MVP award wasn't given based in his 2 good playoff games. Let's just see what happens when/if he gets to face a couple of real MVP's.....possibily in the next round if they make it there.

I'll say it again.....MVP's play D as well as O.
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Killa4luv
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5/19/2005  12:53 AM
Posted by manilaballer:

MVP game for Nash... and Suns lose

Anyway, looking at the last two Heat games I guess indirectly justifies Nash's award. It's becoming more evident tht the heat can win (I said they can, not that they are necessarily a better team) without Shaq, and that Wade is really the best player on that team. Putting up big numbers in the playoffs, when the stakes are high and the competition intense. Nash and Wade are both getting it done. Wade for MVP? Let the Wade jocking begin!

That being said though, the Heat are in trouble if Shaq's not 100% come the conference and NBA finals.
The wizards are not exactly elite competition, whereas Dallas is.
TheloniusMonk
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5/19/2005  2:24 AM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by manilaballer:

MVP game for Nash... and Suns lose

Anyway, looking at the last two Heat games I guess indirectly justifies Nash's award. It's becoming more evident tht the heat can win (I said they can, not that they are necessarily a better team) without Shaq, and that Wade is really the best player on that team. Putting up big numbers in the playoffs, when the stakes are high and the competition intense. Nash and Wade are both getting it done. Wade for MVP? Let the Wade jocking begin!

That being said though, the Heat are in trouble if Shaq's not 100% come the conference and NBA finals.
The wizards are not exactly elite competition, whereas Dallas is.

Very true Killa. Also for me, Nash's offense is not in question. We all know he can score. Nash has put up a couple of big games in the playoffs this season as have Wade and Allen. But MVP caliber player has to dominate at both ends. None of the 3 players I named just now are currently worthy of MVP at this point. My thing is, if Nash is the MVP now I don't see what was stopping them from giving him the award in Dallas because he accomplished the same thing there. And didn't play a lick of D in Dallas the same way he's doing now.
'You can catch me in Hollis at the hero shop!' -Tony Yayo
manilaballer
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5/19/2005  10:52 AM
Posted by TheloniusMonk:
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by manilaballer:

MVP game for Nash... and Suns lose

Anyway, looking at the last two Heat games I guess indirectly justifies Nash's award. It's becoming more evident tht the heat can win (I said they can, not that they are necessarily a better team) without Shaq, and that Wade is really the best player on that team. Putting up big numbers in the playoffs, when the stakes are high and the competition intense. Nash and Wade are both getting it done. Wade for MVP? Let the Wade jocking begin!

That being said though, the Heat are in trouble if Shaq's not 100% come the conference and NBA finals.
The wizards are not exactly elite competition, whereas Dallas is.

Very true Killa. Also for me, Nash's offense is not in question. We all know he can score. Nash has put up a couple of big games in the playoffs this season as have Wade and Allen. But MVP caliber player has to dominate at both ends. None of the 3 players I named just now are currently worthy of MVP at this point. My thing is, if Nash is the MVP now I don't see what was stopping them from giving him the award in Dallas because he accomplished the same thing there. And didn't play a lick of D in Dallas the same way he's doing now.

A most valuable player is what it is... most "valuable" player. If you're the most valuable because of incredible offense without playing a lick of "D", then you're the MVP. Nash has been the maestro for the Suns offense the entire season, and is showing now in the post season that he probably deserves it.

I don't know if you were referring to all three players above in your "dominant on both ends" comment. If so, I'd argue that Dwyane Wade dominates on both ends... helluva offensive player and pretty good on defense being on the all defensive 2nd team.
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Marv
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5/21/2005  12:08 AM
Nash.

Too

freakin'

much!!!
Rich
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5/21/2005  12:12 AM
Isiah has done a great job as Phoenix's GM.
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