nycericanguy wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:

Clean wrote:At least I am not getting a lot of pushback on my Randle hate this year. People are not getting mesmerized by big regular season numbers to the point they ignore the laundry list of negatives he brings. The part I hate is we have no one to takeover for him when he plays bad now. Obi might be playing like trash so far this season but when he had to play big minutes for Randle he played well for us. I am going to give it more time but I might be eating crow on Obi. I thought he would be better with the Pacers.

I always thought Obi meant more to our team then he would on a lot of other teams. He had a niche that aided the team uniquely to win when he was clicking in the second unit. Obi wanted out because Thibs didn't respect his contribution. When Randall played like he is Obi wouldn't get more time to shine but if Obi made a mistake he would be benched. Can't blame him for wanting to go. But once they gave up on Obi he should have been replaced or a more versatile 3/4. But they didn't add a forward at all. Even to be a 10th man respecting the 9 man rotation. The nine man rotation we have is good but man an injury, foul trouble, back to backs, slumps, or a suspension and we are in trouble.

Watching Obi first few games with Indy and he is still doing the exact EXACT same actions he was with the Knicks - he is doing the 3-point hand offs with occasional fake handoff where he tries to get to basket and he’s still afraid to put the ball down in traffic—- absolutely no advancement of the skill/play set.

If Obi has the exact same role with Indy, I would expect the same results. If Obi is stuck in the corner again.

The main reason why Obi has such good numbers as a starter, is because Thibs allows him to attack from the area near the top of the key as a starter. Not as a sub.

If you gave Randle Obi's role, I would expect similar results.

if we're being honest it's because most of his starts came in meaningless April games where Grimes, IQ and Obi were going nut dropping 30 with ease.

Most is more than half which isn't and he put up #s games that mattered, ones that didn't, and in the postseason which you know. It's a very small sample size but you're "not being honest"

nycericanguy wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:

Clean wrote:At least I am not getting a lot of pushback on my Randle hate this year. People are not getting mesmerized by big regular season numbers to the point they ignore the laundry list of negatives he brings. The part I hate is we have no one to takeover for him when he plays bad now. Obi might be playing like trash so far this season but when he had to play big minutes for Randle he played well for us. I am going to give it more time but I might be eating crow on Obi. I thought he would be better with the Pacers.

I always thought Obi meant more to our team then he would on a lot of other teams. He had a niche that aided the team uniquely to win when he was clicking in the second unit. Obi wanted out because Thibs didn't respect his contribution. When Randall played like he is Obi wouldn't get more time to shine but if Obi made a mistake he would be benched. Can't blame him for wanting to go. But once they gave up on Obi he should have been replaced or a more versatile 3/4. But they didn't add a forward at all. Even to be a 10th man respecting the 9 man rotation. The nine man rotation we have is good but man an injury, foul trouble, back to backs, slumps, or a suspension and we are in trouble.

Watching Obi first few games with Indy and he is still doing the exact EXACT same actions he was with the Knicks - he is doing the 3-point hand offs with occasional fake handoff where he tries to get to basket and he’s still afraid to put the ball down in traffic—- absolutely no advancement of the skill/play set.

If Obi has the exact same role with Indy, I would expect the same results. If Obi is stuck in the corner again.

The main reason why Obi has such good numbers as a starter, is because Thibs allows him to attack from the area near the top of the key as a starter. Not as a sub.

If you gave Randle Obi's role, I would expect similar results.

if we're being honest it's because most of his starts came in meaningless April games where Grimes, IQ and Obi were going nut dropping 30 with ease.

Right...

Julius Randle took part in pregame warm-ups, but was unable to go in Game 1 of the second round because of the left ankle he aggravated in the Knicks’ series-clinching victory in the previous round Wednesday in Cleveland.

Toppin stepped in and scored 18 points in 31 minutes — both career-highs over 11 postseason appearances — in the Knicks’ series-opening 108-101 loss to the Heat at the Garden.

He had a great game against MIA, he's going to have some great games this year as well. No one ever said he wasn't capable of good games. My point was his "starter" stats were largely accumulated in April games when the pressure was off and teams were letting each other score 130 with ease and playing 2nd and 3rd units.

The main issue is whats his bread and butter to succeed consistently? He hit a bunch of 3's that game against MIA, that's certainly more of an anomaly. He's not a shooter, he doesn't handle the ball particularly well, he doesn't defend at the rim or on the perimeter. He's a finisher that can occasionally hit a 3, how valuable is that really? Probably valuable as an off the bench energy big.

He took 8.6 3s per 36 last year (a huge volume) and shot 35%. He also had a huge downturn at the trade deadline. His 3-point shooting #s were nearly identical to Randle's with much less game-to-game variance. His making 3s against the heat was not an anomaly. Obi did pretty good in NY despite being dealt a very difficult hand. He's going to be good.

EwingPSD wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:

Clean wrote:At least I am not getting a lot of pushback on my Randle hate this year. People are not getting mesmerized by big regular season numbers to the point they ignore the laundry list of negatives he brings. The part I hate is we have no one to takeover for him when he plays bad now. Obi might be playing like trash so far this season but when he had to play big minutes for Randle he played well for us. I am going to give it more time but I might be eating crow on Obi. I thought he would be better with the Pacers.

I always thought Obi meant more to our team then he would on a lot of other teams. He had a niche that aided the team uniquely to win when he was clicking in the second unit. Obi wanted out because Thibs didn't respect his contribution. When Randall played like he is Obi wouldn't get more time to shine but if Obi made a mistake he would be benched. Can't blame him for wanting to go. But once they gave up on Obi he should have been replaced or a more versatile 3/4. But they didn't add a forward at all. Even to be a 10th man respecting the 9 man rotation. The nine man rotation we have is good but man an injury, foul trouble, back to backs, slumps, or a suspension and we are in trouble.

Watching Obi first few games with Indy and he is still doing the exact EXACT same actions he was with the Knicks - he is doing the 3-point hand offs with occasional fake handoff where he tries to get to basket and he’s still afraid to put the ball down in traffic—- absolutely no advancement of the skill/play set.

If Obi has the exact same role with Indy, I would expect the same results. If Obi is stuck in the corner again.

The main reason why Obi has such good numbers as a starter, is because Thibs allows him to attack from the area near the top of the key as a starter. Not as a sub.

If you gave Randle Obi's role, I would expect similar results.

if we're being honest it's because most of his starts came in meaningless April games where Grimes, IQ and Obi were going nut dropping 30 with ease.

Most is more than half which isn't and he put up #s games that mattered, ones that didn't, and in the postseason which you know. It's a very small sample size but you're "not being honest"

Last year, all of Obi's starts came from 3/31 and after. Randle has played and started in > 70 games while Obi was on roster.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/toppiob01/gamelog/2023#all_pgl_basic_playoffs

martin wrote:

EwingPSD wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:

Clean wrote:At least I am not getting a lot of pushback on my Randle hate this year. People are not getting mesmerized by big regular season numbers to the point they ignore the laundry list of negatives he brings. The part I hate is we have no one to takeover for him when he plays bad now. Obi might be playing like trash so far this season but when he had to play big minutes for Randle he played well for us. I am going to give it more time but I might be eating crow on Obi. I thought he would be better with the Pacers.

I always thought Obi meant more to our team then he would on a lot of other teams. He had a niche that aided the team uniquely to win when he was clicking in the second unit. Obi wanted out because Thibs didn't respect his contribution. When Randall played like he is Obi wouldn't get more time to shine but if Obi made a mistake he would be benched. Can't blame him for wanting to go. But once they gave up on Obi he should have been replaced or a more versatile 3/4. But they didn't add a forward at all. Even to be a 10th man respecting the 9 man rotation. The nine man rotation we have is good but man an injury, foul trouble, back to backs, slumps, or a suspension and we are in trouble.

Watching Obi first few games with Indy and he is still doing the exact EXACT same actions he was with the Knicks - he is doing the 3-point hand offs with occasional fake handoff where he tries to get to basket and he’s still afraid to put the ball down in traffic—- absolutely no advancement of the skill/play set.

If Obi has the exact same role with Indy, I would expect the same results. If Obi is stuck in the corner again.

The main reason why Obi has such good numbers as a starter, is because Thibs allows him to attack from the area near the top of the key as a starter. Not as a sub.

If you gave Randle Obi's role, I would expect similar results.

if we're being honest it's because most of his starts came in meaningless April games where Grimes, IQ and Obi were going nut dropping 30 with ease.

Most is more than half which isn't and he put up #s games that mattered, ones that didn't, and in the postseason which you know. It's a very small sample size but you're "not being honest"

Last year, all of Obi's starts came from 3/31 and after. Randle has played and started in > 70 games while Obi was on roster.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/toppiob01/gamelog/2023#all_pgl_basic_playoffs

yup, last year Obi averaged over 24ppg in April, the year before over 27ppg in April.

but when Randle was out midseason in DEC/JAN and Obi started for a few games he averaged just 11ppg in 32mpg.

Just for context, Grimes, and I love Grimes but Grimes averaged 25ppg last year in April, IQ averaged 29ppg last year in April. You gotta take those games with a grain of salt sometimes. Does anyone remember Earl Barron?...lol

I mean even last night, Obi had like 2 points through 3 quarters, but then racked up 9 points in the 4th in garbage time minutes and was like 4-4. April games are a whole lotta garbage time.

blkexec wrote:So I don’t mind the bad shooting, but the low energy and effort is a pain point. I personally do not like players who only impact the game when they are scoring. There’s more to basketball than scoring.

For me, this is the crux of it.

For all of his 25ppg and 10+rebounds, does he play with effort all the time and do as much as he can?

Plenty of evidence to suggest Randle needs to be motivated to play. That's hard to do for any team or coach. And then you can't count on that player. It's that simple.

nycericanguy wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingPSD wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:

Clean wrote:At least I am not getting a lot of pushback on my Randle hate this year. People are not getting mesmerized by big regular season numbers to the point they ignore the laundry list of negatives he brings. The part I hate is we have no one to takeover for him when he plays bad now. Obi might be playing like trash so far this season but when he had to play big minutes for Randle he played well for us. I am going to give it more time but I might be eating crow on Obi. I thought he would be better with the Pacers.

I always thought Obi meant more to our team then he would on a lot of other teams. He had a niche that aided the team uniquely to win when he was clicking in the second unit. Obi wanted out because Thibs didn't respect his contribution. When Randall played like he is Obi wouldn't get more time to shine but if Obi made a mistake he would be benched. Can't blame him for wanting to go. But once they gave up on Obi he should have been replaced or a more versatile 3/4. But they didn't add a forward at all. Even to be a 10th man respecting the 9 man rotation. The nine man rotation we have is good but man an injury, foul trouble, back to backs, slumps, or a suspension and we are in trouble.

Watching Obi first few games with Indy and he is still doing the exact EXACT same actions he was with the Knicks - he is doing the 3-point hand offs with occasional fake handoff where he tries to get to basket and he’s still afraid to put the ball down in traffic—- absolutely no advancement of the skill/play set.

If Obi has the exact same role with Indy, I would expect the same results. If Obi is stuck in the corner again.

The main reason why Obi has such good numbers as a starter, is because Thibs allows him to attack from the area near the top of the key as a starter. Not as a sub.

If you gave Randle Obi's role, I would expect similar results.

if we're being honest it's because most of his starts came in meaningless April games where Grimes, IQ and Obi were going nut dropping 30 with ease.

Most is more than half which isn't and he put up #s games that mattered, ones that didn't, and in the postseason which you know. It's a very small sample size but you're "not being honest"

Last year, all of Obi's starts came from 3/31 and after. Randle has played and started in > 70 games while Obi was on roster.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/toppiob01/gamelog/2023#all_pgl_basic_playoffs

yup, last year Obi averaged over 24ppg in April, the year before over 27ppg in April.

but when Randle was out midseason in DEC/JAN and Obi started for a few games he averaged just 11ppg in 32mpg.

Just for context, Grimes, and I love Grimes but Grimes averaged 25ppg last year in April, IQ averaged 29ppg last year in April. You gotta take those games with a grain of salt sometimes. Does anyone remember Earl Barron?...lol

I mean even last night, Obi had like 2 points through 3 quarters, but then racked up 9 points in the 4th in garbage time minutes and was like 4-4. April games are a whole lotta garbage time.

Obi played 23 mins once in Dec. He didn't play 20 mins once in Jan and missed most of that month b/c he broke his knee. I think he started 2 games in 20-21 when Randle had Covid around x-mass time. Is that what you are talking about? If I remember right he had one 4-point start and one 19 or something like that. If you are averaging 2 games and presenting it as a representative sample size you again are being dishonest. About half of his late-season games were against teams with something to play for. The majority of the games where he played 20 mins or more were against teams with something to play for and he played well/had impressive #s. If you go 20 mins or more its a 30-game sample. Not clear evidence but a lot closer then you cherry-picking 2 games.

EwingPSD wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingPSD wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingPSD wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:

Clean wrote:At least I am not getting a lot of pushback on my Randle hate this year. People are not getting mesmerized by big regular season numbers to the point they ignore the laundry list of negatives he brings. The part I hate is we have no one to takeover for him when he plays bad now. Obi might be playing like trash so far this season but when he had to play big minutes for Randle he played well for us. I am going to give it more time but I might be eating crow on Obi. I thought he would be better with the Pacers.

I always thought Obi meant more to our team then he would on a lot of other teams. He had a niche that aided the team uniquely to win when he was clicking in the second unit. Obi wanted out because Thibs didn't respect his contribution. When Randall played like he is Obi wouldn't get more time to shine but if Obi made a mistake he would be benched. Can't blame him for wanting to go. But once they gave up on Obi he should have been replaced or a more versatile 3/4. But they didn't add a forward at all. Even to be a 10th man respecting the 9 man rotation. The nine man rotation we have is good but man an injury, foul trouble, back to backs, slumps, or a suspension and we are in trouble.

Watching Obi first few games with Indy and he is still doing the exact EXACT same actions he was with the Knicks - he is doing the 3-point hand offs with occasional fake handoff where he tries to get to basket and he’s still afraid to put the ball down in traffic—- absolutely no advancement of the skill/play set.

If Obi has the exact same role with Indy, I would expect the same results. If Obi is stuck in the corner again.

The main reason why Obi has such good numbers as a starter, is because Thibs allows him to attack from the area near the top of the key as a starter. Not as a sub.

If you gave Randle Obi's role, I would expect similar results.

At some point, it’s just the player.

He had mostly good results in NY.

I think you have a very different definition of Good Results than most.

I look at more then just counting stats

Same.

Doesn't seem like. Obi's efficiency and volume scoring were pretty good over his 3 years. In year 2 his efficiency and volume plus advanced stats were excellent. His plus/minus was positive. Despite the hoopla, the team had a near identical def rebounding % with him on and off all 3 years and team's defensive rating was always better with him on than off. I don't think he deserves credit for the last 2 being the being the case but he wasn't a liability and the team performed well with him. Last year he was disappointing but still worked out to about average efficiency due to shooting tons of 3s and an average connect rate.

It's a hard sell and seems a little surface level to me.

Obi was not a good 3point shooter. In his last year, he shot 34%. He dunked a lot, so his efficiency was very good thru that lens. But that's all he did.

Obi was not a good rebounder, defender, and he was the last person an opponent needed to guard if they even paid attention to him outside of baseline cuts for a lob or rebound.

He could not guard guys on perimeter and you could easily out-strength him in the same way Mitch/Randle does on Mobley.

Also, a majority of Obi's starts were in April last year, and you can't get around that fact, which is not more than half of them. Would you agree with that statement? Delving into deep stats with you doesn't seem like the prudent thing for me.

EwingPSD wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:

Clean wrote:At least I am not getting a lot of pushback on my Randle hate this year. People are not getting mesmerized by big regular season numbers to the point they ignore the laundry list of negatives he brings. The part I hate is we have no one to takeover for him when he plays bad now. Obi might be playing like trash so far this season but when he had to play big minutes for Randle he played well for us. I am going to give it more time but I might be eating crow on Obi. I thought he would be better with the Pacers.

I always thought Obi meant more to our team then he would on a lot of other teams. He had a niche that aided the team uniquely to win when he was clicking in the second unit. Obi wanted out because Thibs didn't respect his contribution. When Randall played like he is Obi wouldn't get more time to shine but if Obi made a mistake he would be benched. Can't blame him for wanting to go. But once they gave up on Obi he should have been replaced or a more versatile 3/4. But they didn't add a forward at all. Even to be a 10th man respecting the 9 man rotation. The nine man rotation we have is good but man an injury, foul trouble, back to backs, slumps, or a suspension and we are in trouble.

Watching Obi first few games with Indy and he is still doing the exact EXACT same actions he was with the Knicks - he is doing the 3-point hand offs with occasional fake handoff where he tries to get to basket and he’s still afraid to put the ball down in traffic—- absolutely no advancement of the skill/play set.

If Obi has the exact same role with Indy, I would expect the same results. If Obi is stuck in the corner again.

The main reason why Obi has such good numbers as a starter, is because Thibs allows him to attack from the area near the top of the key as a starter. Not as a sub.

If you gave Randle Obi's role, I would expect similar results.

if we're being honest it's because most of his starts came in meaningless April games where Grimes, IQ and Obi were going nut dropping 30 with ease.

Right...

Julius Randle took part in pregame warm-ups, but was unable to go in Game 1 of the second round because of the left ankle he aggravated in the Knicks’ series-clinching victory in the previous round Wednesday in Cleveland.

Toppin stepped in and scored 18 points in 31 minutes — both career-highs over 11 postseason appearances — in the Knicks’ series-opening 108-101 loss to the Heat at the Garden.

He had a great game against MIA, he's going to have some great games this year as well. No one ever said he wasn't capable of good games. My point was his "starter" stats were largely accumulated in April games when the pressure was off and teams were letting each other score 130 with ease and playing 2nd and 3rd units.

The main issue is whats his bread and butter to succeed consistently? He hit a bunch of 3's that game against MIA, that's certainly more of an anomaly. He's not a shooter, he doesn't handle the ball particularly well, he doesn't defend at the rim or on the perimeter. He's a finisher that can occasionally hit a 3, how valuable is that really? Probably valuable as an off the bench energy big.

He took 8.6 3s per 36 last year (a huge volume) and shot 35%. He also had a huge downturn at the trade deadline. His 3-point shooting #s were nearly identical to Randle's with much less game-to-game variance. His making 3s against the heat was not an anomaly. Obi did pretty good in NY despite being dealt a very difficult hand. He's going to be good.

Obi is 25 in his 4th year putting up 8ppg as a scoring forward. What makes you think at this point he's going to be good? I guess it depends on your definition of good. He's in maybe the perfect situation for his skillset and still kinda sucks.