holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

holfresh wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

holfresh wrote:

VCoug wrote:I'm a white guy and I totally get where Lebron is coming from. I highly doubt that if Lebron's agent and business manager were 50 year old white guys that Phil would be referring to them as a "posse". And, for the record, here's what Phil thinks of as a posse:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/Rachel__Nichols/status/798637656603115520

Ahh men..Don't tell me they going after Phil for this...But this kind of tells you this isn't really as innocent as we would like to believe..

I dont have a problem with that quote, Lebron was a teenager. But Lebron isn't a kid anymore. Phil is right about the dangers of keeping a large entourage, just have to watch ESPN's "Broke" as told by current and former players themselves. His biggest mistake IMO was underestimating LeBron's capacity for personal growth, and the level of maturity he already possesed at the time.

But he is making that statement again, recently, knowing the man he has matured into..

Its ok to say Tom Brady and his drunken posse getting on board a plane but not ok to say Lebron and his posse? Bottom line two way street--this was a non issue.

Let's clear something up...This isn't the first time LeBron and his crew have been referred as a posse..I'm sure I could find a multitude of articles saying that..But WHO is saying it is important and about whom..Phil Jackson is saying this about LeBron and his business partners...And has said it before in a more unflattering manner also described in a stereotypical way...Read it yourself..He said his posse will fetch cars and fetch girls for them..Who uses the word fetch in today's world...Phil Jackson is very astute and calculating as to exactly what he is saying....

I guess one could take it that way.

LeBron and his guys are both business partners as well as good buddies, they do business together, they go out and have fun together, they grew up together. If it was high noon and they were all walking into Nike headquarters to round out a sneaker deal, posse would seem strange to me and indeed a putdown. Those guys are all strolling to a club on the weekend, posse seems appropriate.

The context of what I think Phil was referring to seemed to be more of that later, his Mom was included in the reference.

Posse not the best choice of word? Sure. Such that LeBron felt the need to handle as he did? Dude should probably check in again with his marketing crew; if he wanted to show himself to be the bigger, smarter, better man he could have made very clear that he was displeased and also not throw down in such a way that divides.

I'll even go one further, maybe Phil looks at LeBron as the biggest name in the NBA and as a competitive individual, feels that taking shots at LeBron might spur some sort cerebral jousting between the two..He has certainly been saying things about LeBron over the years..How about last year when he said that LeBron travels every time he touches the ball...I would love to see LeBron start lobbing shots at Phil on the same scale...Talk about big chief triangle, and how his thinking needs to evolve with the pace and speed of the game..His record as a GM...Thanks for JR and Shump, he got fleeced and is probably sore...Maybe we can send Phil an honorary ring to add to his collection..

Again I don't think Phil meant it in a manner it was received, with racial overtones..I do certainly think it was meant in a manner to belittle LeBron and his business partners accomplishments...

Why do you think it was a belittlement of LeBron and his business partners accomplishments instead of the direct point he was making about getting special treatments?

If it was about only about special treatment why use a term like posse which can be inflammatory??..Business partners doesn't work for Phil or Riley??LeBron's group had been a much discussed entity within and outside NBA circles for some time..I would even argue that the business group that LeBron formed is a large component of the whole special treatment/being different moniker that is currently being leveled at LeBron..I can remember days on end that Mike and Mad Dogg would hammer at LeBron's decision to create the business group...Mike also hammered at LeBron support Lue over Blatt under that whole special treatment umbrella..It's a sore point for them an Phil knows that...So you are telling me Phil couldn't get his point across without injecting term 'posse"..

so again, LeBron and his guys are business partners. They are also childhood friends. They hang out together, go to the clubs and whatnot together and they also sign big Nike deals together. That's common knowledge, right? It's not LeBron and his people who only do business together, so it's also not a complete stretch that they are guys who hang out and goof off sometimes. You acknowledge this, right?

When LeBron, Wade, Melo, CP3 go out and take a pic on a boat, is that Melo and his posse or do we need to strictly refer to them as Melo and his NBA workmates? Melo and his nba summertime posse?

Again, there is room for posse to be a not so good choice of word, but is there also room for it to be a non issue? But inflammatory? For me that's awfully thin skin.

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

holfresh wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

holfresh wrote:

VCoug wrote:I'm a white guy and I totally get where Lebron is coming from. I highly doubt that if Lebron's agent and business manager were 50 year old white guys that Phil would be referring to them as a "posse". And, for the record, here's what Phil thinks of as a posse:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/Rachel__Nichols/status/798637656603115520

Ahh men..Don't tell me they going after Phil for this...But this kind of tells you this isn't really as innocent as we would like to believe..

I dont have a problem with that quote, Lebron was a teenager. But Lebron isn't a kid anymore. Phil is right about the dangers of keeping a large entourage, just have to watch ESPN's "Broke" as told by current and former players themselves. His biggest mistake IMO was underestimating LeBron's capacity for personal growth, and the level of maturity he already possesed at the time.

But he is making that statement again, recently, knowing the man he has matured into..

Its ok to say Tom Brady and his drunken posse getting on board a plane but not ok to say Lebron and his posse? Bottom line two way street--this was a non issue.

Let's clear something up...This isn't the first time LeBron and his crew have been referred as a posse..I'm sure I could find a multitude of articles saying that..But WHO is saying it is important and about whom..Phil Jackson is saying this about LeBron and his business partners...And has said it before in a more unflattering manner also described in a stereotypical way...Read it yourself..He said his posse will fetch cars and fetch girls for them..Who uses the word fetch in today's world...Phil Jackson is very astute and calculating as to exactly what he is saying....

I guess one could take it that way.

LeBron and his guys are both business partners as well as good buddies, they do business together, they go out and have fun together, they grew up together. If it was high noon and they were all walking into Nike headquarters to round out a sneaker deal, posse would seem strange to me and indeed a putdown. Those guys are all strolling to a club on the weekend, posse seems appropriate.

The context of what I think Phil was referring to seemed to be more of that later, his Mom was included in the reference.

Posse not the best choice of word? Sure. Such that LeBron felt the need to handle as he did? Dude should probably check in again with his marketing crew; if he wanted to show himself to be the bigger, smarter, better man he could have made very clear that he was displeased and also not throw down in such a way that divides.

I'll even go one further, maybe Phil looks at LeBron as the biggest name in the NBA and as a competitive individual, feels that taking shots at LeBron might spur some sort cerebral jousting between the two..He has certainly been saying things about LeBron over the years..How about last year when he said that LeBron travels every time he touches the ball...I would love to see LeBron start lobbing shots at Phil on the same scale...Talk about big chief triangle, and how his thinking needs to evolve with the pace and speed of the game..His record as a GM...Thanks for JR and Shump, he got fleeced and is probably sore...Maybe we can send Phil an honorary ring to add to his collection..

Again I don't think Phil meant it in a manner it was received, with racial overtones..I do certainly think it was meant in a manner to belittle LeBron and his business partners accomplishments...

Why do you think it was a belittlement of LeBron and his business partners accomplishments instead of the direct point he was making about getting special treatments?

If it was about only about special treatment why use a term like posse which can be inflammatory??..Business partners doesn't work for Phil or Riley??LeBron's group had been a much discussed entity within and outside NBA circles for some time..I would even argue that the business group that LeBron formed is a large component of the whole special treatment/being different moniker that is currently being leveled at LeBron..I can remember days on end that Mike and Mad Dogg would hammer at LeBron's decision to create the business group...Mike also hammered at LeBron support Lue over Blatt under that whole special treatment umbrella..It's a sore point for them an Phil knows that...So you are telling me Phil couldn't get his point across without injecting term 'posse"..

so again, LeBron and his guys are business partners. They are also childhood friends. They hang out together, go to the clubs and whatnot together and they also sign big Nike deals together. That's common knowledge, right? It's not LeBron and his people who only do business together, so it's also not a complete stretch that they are guys who hang out and goof off sometimes. You acknowledge this, right?

When LeBron, Wade, Melo, CP3 go out and take a pic on a boat, is that Melo and his posse or do we need to strictly refer to them as Melo and his NBA workmates? Melo and his nba summertime posse?

Again, there is room for posse to be a not so good choice of word, but is there also room for it to be a non issue? But inflammatory? For me that's awfully thin skin.

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

holfresh wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

holfresh wrote:

VCoug wrote:I'm a white guy and I totally get where Lebron is coming from. I highly doubt that if Lebron's agent and business manager were 50 year old white guys that Phil would be referring to them as a "posse". And, for the record, here's what Phil thinks of as a posse:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/Rachel__Nichols/status/798637656603115520

Ahh men..Don't tell me they going after Phil for this...But this kind of tells you this isn't really as innocent as we would like to believe..

I dont have a problem with that quote, Lebron was a teenager. But Lebron isn't a kid anymore. Phil is right about the dangers of keeping a large entourage, just have to watch ESPN's "Broke" as told by current and former players themselves. His biggest mistake IMO was underestimating LeBron's capacity for personal growth, and the level of maturity he already possesed at the time.

But he is making that statement again, recently, knowing the man he has matured into..

Its ok to say Tom Brady and his drunken posse getting on board a plane but not ok to say Lebron and his posse? Bottom line two way street--this was a non issue.

Let's clear something up...This isn't the first time LeBron and his crew have been referred as a posse..I'm sure I could find a multitude of articles saying that..But WHO is saying it is important and about whom..Phil Jackson is saying this about LeBron and his business partners...And has said it before in a more unflattering manner also described in a stereotypical way...Read it yourself..He said his posse will fetch cars and fetch girls for them..Who uses the word fetch in today's world...Phil Jackson is very astute and calculating as to exactly what he is saying....

I guess one could take it that way.

LeBron and his guys are both business partners as well as good buddies, they do business together, they go out and have fun together, they grew up together. If it was high noon and they were all walking into Nike headquarters to round out a sneaker deal, posse would seem strange to me and indeed a putdown. Those guys are all strolling to a club on the weekend, posse seems appropriate.

The context of what I think Phil was referring to seemed to be more of that later, his Mom was included in the reference.

Posse not the best choice of word? Sure. Such that LeBron felt the need to handle as he did? Dude should probably check in again with his marketing crew; if he wanted to show himself to be the bigger, smarter, better man he could have made very clear that he was displeased and also not throw down in such a way that divides.

I'll even go one further, maybe Phil looks at LeBron as the biggest name in the NBA and as a competitive individual, feels that taking shots at LeBron might spur some sort cerebral jousting between the two..He has certainly been saying things about LeBron over the years..How about last year when he said that LeBron travels every time he touches the ball...I would love to see LeBron start lobbing shots at Phil on the same scale...Talk about big chief triangle, and how his thinking needs to evolve with the pace and speed of the game..His record as a GM...Thanks for JR and Shump, he got fleeced and is probably sore...Maybe we can send Phil an honorary ring to add to his collection..

Again I don't think Phil meant it in a manner it was received, with racial overtones..I do certainly think it was meant in a manner to belittle LeBron and his business partners accomplishments...

Why do you think it was a belittlement of LeBron and his business partners accomplishments instead of the direct point he was making about getting special treatments?

If it was about only about special treatment why use a term like posse which can be inflammatory??..Business partners doesn't work for Phil or Riley??LeBron's group had been a much discussed entity within and outside NBA circles for some time..I would even argue that the business group that LeBron formed is a large component of the whole special treatment/being different moniker that is currently being leveled at LeBron..I can remember days on end that Mike and Mad Dogg would hammer at LeBron's decision to create the business group...Mike also hammered at LeBron support Lue over Blatt under that whole special treatment umbrella..It's a sore point for them an Phil knows that...So you are telling me Phil couldn't get his point across without injecting term 'posse"..

so again, LeBron and his guys are business partners. They are also childhood friends. They hang out together, go to the clubs and whatnot together and they also sign big Nike deals together. That's common knowledge, right? It's not LeBron and his people who only do business together, so it's also not a complete stretch that they are guys who hang out and goof off sometimes. You acknowledge this, right?

When LeBron, Wade, Melo, CP3 go out and take a pic on a boat, is that Melo and his posse or do we need to strictly refer to them as Melo and his NBA workmates? Melo and his nba summertime posse?

Again, there is room for posse to be a not so good choice of word, but is there also room for it to be a non issue? But inflammatory? For me that's awfully thin skin.

What you are presenting is plausible deniability...Sure, when these guys hang out and goof off, many can and will refer to them as a posse with zero ill will...And as you say thin skinned, ok, I get that..But let's not pretend that Phil wasn't trying to get under that skin regardless of how thick or thin it is...

I am not at all trying to pretend that Phil wasn't trying to get under that skin. It's EXACTLY what he was doing. He was 100% pointing out that LeBron was getting special treatment. That was Phil's whole point. But inflammatory because of the use of the word posse? I find that a stretch.

Also, I am not presenting any type of plausible deniability. I am presenting different takes.

martin wrote: that Phil wasn't trying to get under that skin regardless of how thick or thin it is...[/b]

I am not at all trying to pretend that Phil wasn't trying to get under that skin. It's EXACTLY what he was doing. He was 100% pointing out that LeBron was getting special treatment. That was Phil's whole point. But inflammatory because of the use of the word posse? I find that a stretch.

Also, I am not presenting any type of plausible deniability. I am presenting different takes.

that's exactly it...and a sensitive LeBron (from the racial tension) interpreted that as something it wasnt

Vmart wrote:In today's US if you look at someone your a racist. Keep your eyes on the ground and keep walking. I'm sure Carter somehow found offense because he thought posse is a hanger on.

In today's US if a lot of white people hear comments of concern about racial insensitivity/bias from whites towards people of color, grand generalizations are often made that you cannot say anything without being labeled a racist.

callmened wrote:

martin wrote:I am not at all trying to pretend that Phil wasn't trying to get under that skin. It's EXACTLY what he was doing. He was 100% pointing out that LeBron was getting special treatment. That was Phil's whole point. But inflammatory because of the use of the word posse? I find that a stretch.

Also, I am not presenting any type of plausible deniability. I am presenting different takes.

that's exactly it...and a sensitive LeBron (from the racial tension) interpreted that as something it wasnt

You know what would have been a great response from LeBron?

"You know, I don't really like the characterization of posse and would have preferred that Phil used a different term, these are both my business partners and friends and family and to me the word posse is a bit demeaning to me. But for real, me and my Cleveland Cavaliers posse are concentrating on repeating a championship so I don't worry about it too much and don't have too much time to put into the **** that comes out of Phil's mouth; Phil and his posse should spend more time worrying about getting over .500 and making it into the playoffs".

BAM

I kind of doubt it.

I think it was a poor choice of words, speaking as a white person. Perhaps it is not my place perhaps to say how bad it is, but if I was Phil I'd apologize for the mistake and acknowledge the potential impact.

I'd argue pretty much all white people at some point have slipped in such a manner, including myself, in their past. Using it in this way, even if he didn't mean it this way, is what psychologists call a "microagression." The impact that racism/white supremacy/sexism, etc. has on us as a society is that, unfortunately, some words and phrases said by a person of the dominant cultural group (white people, men, straight identifying folks, etc.) can be a sign of our own stereotyping and/or when heard by others, especially a less powerful group/oppressed group member, as insensitive or lacking in empathy to even when we don't mean it.

martin, to answer your point about the word "posse," respectfully, the word was commonly used in the late 80's and early 90's to describe a group of young black men in hip-hop, right?

"My posse's always ready, and they're waitin' in my zone"
"The posse always ready - 98 at 98/My posse come quick, because my posse got velocity."

"Too Much Posse" - Public Enemy

"Posse" - Marvin Van Peebles 1993 "black" cowboy movie with Rakim and Big Daddy Kane titled quite clearly as a double entendre.

These are just some examples I can think of immediately.

[water break at Cav's practice]
LeQ: Can you believe what that old dopey 'Tana cracker said about my fellow business associates?
Love: Ummmm, Cap, don't you think you might be overreacting a bit?
LeQ: Shut the fuhuck up loser. Without me, you ain't worth day old dog sheehit next to a stop sign.
Love: Cap, isn't that what the cracker was saying about your associates from 12 years ago?
LeQ: Tyron! Ty! Get this muthafrickin peckerwood off my team, now!
Lue: Mr. James, Sir, they normally call me coach around here...
LeQ: Get out! You're fired!

Maybe Phil's attempting some roadblock deconstruction?

martin wrote:

callmened wrote:

martin wrote:I am not at all trying to pretend that Phil wasn't trying to get under that skin. It's EXACTLY what he was doing. He was 100% pointing out that LeBron was getting special treatment. That was Phil's whole point. But inflammatory because of the use of the word posse? I find that a stretch.

Also, I am not presenting any type of plausible deniability. I am presenting different takes.

that's exactly it...and a sensitive LeBron (from the racial tension) interpreted that as something it wasnt

You know what would have been a great response from LeBron?

"You know, I don't really like the characterization of posse and would have preferred that Phil used a different term, these are both my business partners and friends and family and to me the word posse is a bit demeaning to me. But for real, me and my Cleveland Cavaliers posse are concentrating on repeating a championship so I don't worry about it too much and don't have too much time to put into the **** that comes out of Phil's mouth; Phil and his posse should spend more time worrying about getting over .500 and making it into the playoffs".

BAM

exactly. I think he went to far by saying "if he were white would that term be used?" but like I said, dude was emotionally hurt (especially during these recent events) + he's not a expertise in these things. he probably DID misinterpret it the wrong way because hes sensitive - and I really think he deserves a pass for that. but his response could've been better