mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Rookie wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Rookie wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:I saw the video of the North Carolina shooting..I didn't see a gun but Lamont Scott looked like he had a gun, he was walking like he was holding a gun..He simple didn't look like a person backing away from a conflict...He had an object in his right hand. I can't fault the police here...

His main flaw was not coming out with his hands up and attempting to slowly lay on the ground. I can't speak for the officers but I don't feel that he presented any real tldanger to them. Their were multiple officers. They had taken cover behind their vehicles. The man walked out of the car like they requested. When he turned his head to witness all the different officers present is when they took him as a threat. With all that said was there a need for the multiple guns shots with the shoot to kill mentality? Would a shoulder/leg shot not be a more appropriate action in this instance?

If he had a gun in his hand then this is all moot...Dude had a gun holster around his left ankle around his white socks, I saw it, I slowed, froze, the frame from the police body cam...If he had a gun in his hands, all bets are off...Look at the police officer's point of view..You told him to drop the gun several times, he got out the car with gun in hand and moved around in a manner not to resolve the conflict..Be reasonable...

NC is an open carry state. So the main question is if he had a gun in his hand as he came out of the car. Which even after all this still isn't clear for some reason. He was an open target for multiple police officers who we all behind cover. And while his head and body turned he was shot while never even attempting to move his arms. I can't tell you what was going through his head. He was either looking for conflicted which he had no way out of but death. Or he was scared out of his mind and reacted poorly which resulted in his death. At the end of the day police had way more control over the situation and his life then he ever had over theirs.

I don't understand the argument if he had a gun in his hands then we need to examine his mental state or wait to see if he raises and fire or he is reacting poorly to commands...All that is just crazy to me..Everyone is trying to get home to their family. If I'm a police officer, I'm not trying to find out if his bullets can pierce the car I'm trying to hide behind or if he is upset or medicated etc...If you have a gun in hand and you refuse to drop it and you are backtracking like some one in combat then all bets are off...Put yourself in the situation, If you had a gun and think you life is in danger and the other person has a gun, are you going to shoot him in the leg and see what happens next??

I keep thinking back and forth on this and it's hard to really take clear position. Openly carrying a gun around is completely legal in NC. This person like everyone else knows the police are probably going to shoot and kill him in this situation based on the history of several such shootings this year. Right or wrong what do you expect him to do? If he complies and they still shoot him he didn't give himself a fighting chance. This is the dilemma created in people's mind by unchecked police brutality.

Also it's a failure of the gun laws that allow people to openly carry but doesn't provide the police with proper protocol for deescalating.

I have a concealed weapons license. At no time in my life have I or will I, take it out during a traffic stop, hold it in my hand, then refuse to drop it when asked by several police officers. And you should "expect" everyone in their right mind to do the same. However, I do agree that the process for obtaining a gun is way too easy and needs stricter requirements. It is a sad commentary that it is easier to obtain a gun than it is to obtain a driver's license. Also, police have a ridiculously hard job, but there needs to be more training on how to defuse a situation. Some of these shootings are clearly showing certain officers are just not ready for the stress of a life or death situation.

NC is open carry, so there's no reason for him to hide it. I don't know your ethnicity, but I can see why black people may justifiably fear for their life when surrounded by the police. If you think you are going to be shot (not sure how many points in your life you felt that) you too would try to defend yourself. This man had no idea if the police would let him live assuming he even had a gun in his hands. And when both your wife and the police are screaming different things at you, you can get easily confused in a very stressful situation. The man sitting in his car minding his own business and not breaking any laws, There was no "situation" till the Police went out of their way to create one.

There is nothing to get confused about. The first words out of your mouth are "officer, I have a legal hand gun". Situation diffused

Situation diffused? Tell that to the guy shot dead in Tulsa.

So then when the police approached, if he put his hands on the steering wheel and said "officer, I have a legal firearm" that they would have shot him anyway?

No one knows what they would have done, but recent history has shown it's a very real possibility.

why was he out of his car? and the way he went back to get something, if I was a cop I would have certainly feared that he was going for a gun.

It would be nice if people were trained on what to do when pulled over to not scare the sh1t out of the cops.

Have you ever had a cop draw his gun on you? I have! My Dad is a retired Police Lieutenant and I still was unsure of what to do in that moment. I was in South
Jamaica, Queens, in the dead of winter, in the mid 80's and we had called the police because a rental property was broken into. I was on the porch and when one of the cops approached I started to direct him over and when he got close I was standing there with my hands in my pockets cuz it was cold. He put his hands on his gun and told me to take my hands out of my pockets slowly. I just remember locking up and thinking what is the right speed to move? If I go too slow it may freak him out and if it's too fast... Thank God nothing happened but it was a very scary situation and I can tell you that when you see a Gun in a cop's hand and he's got a stern look on his face you will panic. The thing is I told him we were the ones who called but he was dead serious about seeing my hands.

My thing with all of this is that Civilians are expected to react in a perfect way to situations that they are not used to. Cops do this all the time and are used to the weird reactions people have and should not be panicking and just shooting people who have their wallet in their hands or NOTHING in their hands. Even when someone has a gun in their hands a cop still has to be professional and follow proper tactics.

that poor guy did not mean to do what he did but these guys need to be trained as well. I have been pulled over > 100 times and of course, I would never ever get out of the car. I follow a protocol because a state trooper once told me exactly what scares cops and what you need to do to alleviate that fear. Guess what ... its gotten me out of almost every ticket :-)

I get that some people have no idea what to do ... what can be done about that?

I have heard a while back that they have started educational training on how to comply with police in schools.

nixluva wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Rookie wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Rookie wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:I saw the video of the North Carolina shooting..I didn't see a gun but Lamont Scott looked like he had a gun, he was walking like he was holding a gun..He simple didn't look like a person backing away from a conflict...He had an object in his right hand. I can't fault the police here...

His main flaw was not coming out with his hands up and attempting to slowly lay on the ground. I can't speak for the officers but I don't feel that he presented any real tldanger to them. Their were multiple officers. They had taken cover behind their vehicles. The man walked out of the car like they requested. When he turned his head to witness all the different officers present is when they took him as a threat. With all that said was there a need for the multiple guns shots with the shoot to kill mentality? Would a shoulder/leg shot not be a more appropriate action in this instance?

If he had a gun in his hand then this is all moot...Dude had a gun holster around his left ankle around his white socks, I saw it, I slowed, froze, the frame from the police body cam...If he had a gun in his hands, all bets are off...Look at the police officer's point of view..You told him to drop the gun several times, he got out the car with gun in hand and moved around in a manner not to resolve the conflict..Be reasonable...

NC is an open carry state. So the main question is if he had a gun in his hand as he came out of the car. Which even after all this still isn't clear for some reason. He was an open target for multiple police officers who we all behind cover. And while his head and body turned he was shot while never even attempting to move his arms. I can't tell you what was going through his head. He was either looking for conflicted which he had no way out of but death. Or he was scared out of his mind and reacted poorly which resulted in his death. At the end of the day police had way more control over the situation and his life then he ever had over theirs.

I don't understand the argument if he had a gun in his hands then we need to examine his mental state or wait to see if he raises and fire or he is reacting poorly to commands...All that is just crazy to me..Everyone is trying to get home to their family. If I'm a police officer, I'm not trying to find out if his bullets can pierce the car I'm trying to hide behind or if he is upset or medicated etc...If you have a gun in hand and you refuse to drop it and you are backtracking like some one in combat then all bets are off...Put yourself in the situation, If you had a gun and think you life is in danger and the other person has a gun, are you going to shoot him in the leg and see what happens next??

I keep thinking back and forth on this and it's hard to really take clear position. Openly carrying a gun around is completely legal in NC. This person like everyone else knows the police are probably going to shoot and kill him in this situation based on the history of several such shootings this year. Right or wrong what do you expect him to do? If he complies and they still shoot him he didn't give himself a fighting chance. This is the dilemma created in people's mind by unchecked police brutality.

Also it's a failure of the gun laws that allow people to openly carry but doesn't provide the police with proper protocol for deescalating.

I have a concealed weapons license. At no time in my life have I or will I, take it out during a traffic stop, hold it in my hand, then refuse to drop it when asked by several police officers. And you should "expect" everyone in their right mind to do the same. However, I do agree that the process for obtaining a gun is way too easy and needs stricter requirements. It is a sad commentary that it is easier to obtain a gun than it is to obtain a driver's license. Also, police have a ridiculously hard job, but there needs to be more training on how to defuse a situation. Some of these shootings are clearly showing certain officers are just not ready for the stress of a life or death situation.

NC is open carry, so there's no reason for him to hide it. I don't know your ethnicity, but I can see why black people may justifiably fear for their life when surrounded by the police. If you think you are going to be shot (not sure how many points in your life you felt that) you too would try to defend yourself. This man had no idea if the police would let him live assuming he even had a gun in his hands. And when both your wife and the police are screaming different things at you, you can get easily confused in a very stressful situation. The man sitting in his car minding his own business and not breaking any laws, There was no "situation" till the Police went out of their way to create one.

There is nothing to get confused about. The first words out of your mouth are "officer, I have a legal hand gun". Situation diffused

Situation diffused? Tell that to the guy shot dead in Tulsa.

So then when the police approached, if he put his hands on the steering wheel and said "officer, I have a legal firearm" that they would have shot him anyway?

No one knows what they would have done, but recent history has shown it's a very real possibility.

why was he out of his car? and the way he went back to get something, if I was a cop I would have certainly feared that he was going for a gun.

It would be nice if people were trained on what to do when pulled over to not scare the sh1t out of the cops.

Have you ever had a cop draw his gun on you? I have! My Dad is a retired Police Lieutenant and I still was unsure of what to do in that moment. I was in South
Jamaica, Queens, in the dead of winter, in the mid 80's and we had called the police because a rental property was broken into. I was on the porch and when one of the cops approached I started to direct him over and when he got close I was standing there with my hands in my pockets cuz it was cold. He put his hands on his gun and told me to take my hands out of my pockets slowly. I just remember locking up and thinking what is the right speed to move? If I go too slow it may freak him out and if it's too fast... Thank God nothing happened but it was a very scary situation and I can tell you that when you see a Gun in a cop's hand and he's got a stern look on his face you will panic. The thing is I told him we were the ones who called but he was dead serious about seeing my hands.

My thing with all of this is that Civilians are expected to react in a perfect way to situations that they are not used to. Cops do this all the time and are used to the weird reactions people have and should not be panicking and just shooting people who have their wallet in their hands or NOTHING in their hands. Even when someone has a gun in their hands a cop still has to be professional and follow proper tactics.

that poor guy did not mean to do what he did but these guys need to be trained as well. I have been pulled over > 100 times and of course, I would never ever get out of the car. I follow a protocol because a state trooper once told me exactly what scares cops and what you need to do to alleviate that fear. Guess what ... its gotten me out of almost every ticket :-)

I get that some people have no idea what to do ... what can be done about that?

I have heard a while back that they have started educational training on how to comply with police in schools.

IMO it's not about the Civilians!!! This is a police training thing. There are too many situations where cops are panicking and it's simply not about what the Civilians are doing. You can't possibly prepare every person in America to know what will trip a nervous cops trigger or an overbearing cop. Also cops are going to be dealing with mentally disabled people, drunk people, angry people. They are the professionals and must understand how to handle these different scenarios better.

completely disagree!

How about we start with training the normal people first? Drunks and mentally disabled are not the main problem. You can't just look at this one sided, of course the cops need to be trained and they get tons of training, and IMHO, cops are mostly doing a good job in most of the tough circumstances even though we only see the bad outcomes in the press.

Everyone needs to be trained! Why not train high school kids who are getting ready to drive, what to do when you are stopped by a police officer? What you should not do that mayinstill fear in them and possibly partake in them becoming tight on the trigger? How about not getting out of your car when you are pulled over? How about showing your hands clearly at all times, especially when told a number of times to do so? How about not reaching for anything especially when not asked? And, when you do it, do it slowly? I tell this to my kids all the time ... don't do something stupid and put your life at risk.

Do you really think that cops want to go around shooting people? Do you know how awful that situation is for them when it happens? Especially if it turns out that what scared them such as an abrupt reach turns out to be just a mistake and now they have to deal with having shot or killed someone?

Is there police brutality at times? Absolutely! Can they have ego's and bad tempers? Of course! The last thing that we should be doing is provoking these bad apples, and of course we should never be scaring the good apples.

When you get pulled over, especially at night, turn on your interior light and put your hands on top of the steering wheel where they can easily be seen by the approaching officer(s). Then, don't do anything or say anything until your are asked or told to do it. Don't argue, act rude, be an azz, stick a camera in their face, tell them that your taxes pay their salaries, tell them that you will see them in court ...

And always always always treat the officer with respect. If you do, you have a much better chance at them returning the respect.

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Rookie wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Rookie wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:I saw the video of the North Carolina shooting..I didn't see a gun but Lamont Scott looked like he had a gun, he was walking like he was holding a gun..He simple didn't look like a person backing away from a conflict...He had an object in his right hand. I can't fault the police here...

His main flaw was not coming out with his hands up and attempting to slowly lay on the ground. I can't speak for the officers but I don't feel that he presented any real tldanger to them. Their were multiple officers. They had taken cover behind their vehicles. The man walked out of the car like they requested. When he turned his head to witness all the different officers present is when they took him as a threat. With all that said was there a need for the multiple guns shots with the shoot to kill mentality? Would a shoulder/leg shot not be a more appropriate action in this instance?

If he had a gun in his hand then this is all moot...Dude had a gun holster around his left ankle around his white socks, I saw it, I slowed, froze, the frame from the police body cam...If he had a gun in his hands, all bets are off...Look at the police officer's point of view..You told him to drop the gun several times, he got out the car with gun in hand and moved around in a manner not to resolve the conflict..Be reasonable...

NC is an open carry state. So the main question is if he had a gun in his hand as he came out of the car. Which even after all this still isn't clear for some reason. He was an open target for multiple police officers who we all behind cover. And while his head and body turned he was shot while never even attempting to move his arms. I can't tell you what was going through his head. He was either looking for conflicted which he had no way out of but death. Or he was scared out of his mind and reacted poorly which resulted in his death. At the end of the day police had way more control over the situation and his life then he ever had over theirs.

I don't understand the argument if he had a gun in his hands then we need to examine his mental state or wait to see if he raises and fire or he is reacting poorly to commands...All that is just crazy to me..Everyone is trying to get home to their family. If I'm a police officer, I'm not trying to find out if his bullets can pierce the car I'm trying to hide behind or if he is upset or medicated etc...If you have a gun in hand and you refuse to drop it and you are backtracking like some one in combat then all bets are off...Put yourself in the situation, If you had a gun and think you life is in danger and the other person has a gun, are you going to shoot him in the leg and see what happens next??

I keep thinking back and forth on this and it's hard to really take clear position. Openly carrying a gun around is completely legal in NC. This person like everyone else knows the police are probably going to shoot and kill him in this situation based on the history of several such shootings this year. Right or wrong what do you expect him to do? If he complies and they still shoot him he didn't give himself a fighting chance. This is the dilemma created in people's mind by unchecked police brutality.

Also it's a failure of the gun laws that allow people to openly carry but doesn't provide the police with proper protocol for deescalating.

I have a concealed weapons license. At no time in my life have I or will I, take it out during a traffic stop, hold it in my hand, then refuse to drop it when asked by several police officers. And you should "expect" everyone in their right mind to do the same. However, I do agree that the process for obtaining a gun is way too easy and needs stricter requirements. It is a sad commentary that it is easier to obtain a gun than it is to obtain a driver's license. Also, police have a ridiculously hard job, but there needs to be more training on how to defuse a situation. Some of these shootings are clearly showing certain officers are just not ready for the stress of a life or death situation.

NC is open carry, so there's no reason for him to hide it. I don't know your ethnicity, but I can see why black people may justifiably fear for their life when surrounded by the police. If you think you are going to be shot (not sure how many points in your life you felt that) you too would try to defend yourself. This man had no idea if the police would let him live assuming he even had a gun in his hands. And when both your wife and the police are screaming different things at you, you can get easily confused in a very stressful situation. The man sitting in his car minding his own business and not breaking any laws, There was no "situation" till the Police went out of their way to create one.

There is nothing to get confused about. The first words out of your mouth are "officer, I have a legal hand gun". Situation diffused

Situation diffused? Tell that to the guy shot dead in Tulsa.

So then when the police approached, if he put his hands on the steering wheel and said "officer, I have a legal firearm" that they would have shot him anyway?

No one knows what they would have done, but recent history has shown it's a very real possibility.

why was he out of his car? and the way he went back to get something, if I was a cop I would have certainly feared that he was going for a gun.

It would be nice if people were trained on what to do when pulled over to not scare the sh1t out of the cops.

Have you ever had a cop draw his gun on you? I have! My Dad is a retired Police Lieutenant and I still was unsure of what to do in that moment. I was in South
Jamaica, Queens, in the dead of winter, in the mid 80's and we had called the police because a rental property was broken into. I was on the porch and when one of the cops approached I started to direct him over and when he got close I was standing there with my hands in my pockets cuz it was cold. He put his hands on his gun and told me to take my hands out of my pockets slowly. I just remember locking up and thinking what is the right speed to move? If I go too slow it may freak him out and if it's too fast... Thank God nothing happened but it was a very scary situation and I can tell you that when you see a Gun in a cop's hand and he's got a stern look on his face you will panic. The thing is I told him we were the ones who called but he was dead serious about seeing my hands.

My thing with all of this is that Civilians are expected to react in a perfect way to situations that they are not used to. Cops do this all the time and are used to the weird reactions people have and should not be panicking and just shooting people who have their wallet in their hands or NOTHING in their hands. Even when someone has a gun in their hands a cop still has to be professional and follow proper tactics.

that poor guy did not mean to do what he did but these guys need to be trained as well. I have been pulled over > 100 times and of course, I would never ever get out of the car. I follow a protocol because a state trooper once told me exactly what scares cops and what you need to do to alleviate that fear. Guess what ... its gotten me out of almost every ticket :-)

I get that some people have no idea what to do ... what can be done about that?

I have heard a while back that they have started educational training on how to comply with police in schools.

IMO it's not about the Civilians!!! This is a police training thing. There are too many situations where cops are panicking and it's simply not about what the Civilians are doing. You can't possibly prepare every person in America to know what will trip a nervous cops trigger or an overbearing cop. Also cops are going to be dealing with mentally disabled people, drunk people, angry people. They are the professionals and must understand how to handle these different scenarios better.

completely disagree!

How about we start with training the normal people first? Drunks and mentally disabled are not the main problem. You can't just look at this one sided, of course the cops need to be train and they get tons of training and IMHO, cops are mostly doing a good job in most tough circumstances even though we only see the bad outcomes in the press.

Everyone needs to be trained! Why not train high school kids who are getting ready to drive what to do when you are stopped by a police officer? What you should not do that can instill fear in them and possibly become tight on the trigger? How about not getting out of your car when you are pulled over? How about showing your hands clearly at all times, especially when told a number of times? How about not reaching for anything especially when not asked? And, when you do it, do it slowly? I tell this to my kids all the time ... don't do something stupid and put your life at risk.

Do you really think that cops want to go around shooting people? Do you know how awful that situation is for them when it happens? Especially if it turns out that they what scared them such as an abrupt reach turns out to be just a mistake and now they have to deal with having shot or killed someone?

Is there police brutality at times? Absolutely! Can they have ego's and bad tempers? Of course! The last thing that we should be doing is provoking these bad apples, and of course we should never be scaring the good apples.

When you get pulled over, especially at night, turn on your interior light and put your hands on top of the steering wheel where they can easily be seen by the approaching officer(s). Then, don't do anything or say anything until your are asked or told to do it. Don't argue, act rude, be an azz, stick a camera in their face, tell them that your taxes pay their salaries, tell them that you will see them in court ...

And always always always treat the officer with respect. If you do, you have a much better chance at them returning the respect.

You are talking like cops are somehow victims of civilians simply being human, when they are in fact the ones who have gone to the Police Academy and have thousands of hours of encounters with civilians unlike the average civilian who may only encounter police once or twice in years. A class in school may not be enough to prepare a person for every scenario that may randomly come upon them. People are getting shot even when they comply!!!

You keep forgetting that my FATHER was a cop as well as my uncle. I know what it's like to live in that world. Simply teaching kids the basics of dealing with Police is no guarantee that they will be able to stay safe in dealing with police. Have you not been paying attention to anything that's been going on? You are assuming a lot and putting a lot on the Civilian but in most cases it's the cop that is armed and they need to do a better job of de-escalating situations.

So should civilians be trained or not? The points that I mentioned in my last post, should these types of things be taught? If we don't, won't these civilians be much more at risk?

I said it many times, everyone needs to be trained! Cops and civilians. I still have a big problem with the cops trained to go for so many kill shots but that's a different argument.

Nix, do you train your kids on how to deal with police officers? If yes then they are lucky. The ones that don't have parents or teachers that train them will be much more at risk.

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Rookie wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Rookie wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:I saw the video of the North Carolina shooting..I didn't see a gun but Lamont Scott looked like he had a gun, he was walking like he was holding a gun..He simple didn't look like a person backing away from a conflict...He had an object in his right hand. I can't fault the police here...

His main flaw was not coming out with his hands up and attempting to slowly lay on the ground. I can't speak for the officers but I don't feel that he presented any real tldanger to them. Their were multiple officers. They had taken cover behind their vehicles. The man walked out of the car like they requested. When he turned his head to witness all the different officers present is when they took him as a threat. With all that said was there a need for the multiple guns shots with the shoot to kill mentality? Would a shoulder/leg shot not be a more appropriate action in this instance?

If he had a gun in his hand then this is all moot...Dude had a gun holster around his left ankle around his white socks, I saw it, I slowed, froze, the frame from the police body cam...If he had a gun in his hands, all bets are off...Look at the police officer's point of view..You told him to drop the gun several times, he got out the car with gun in hand and moved around in a manner not to resolve the conflict..Be reasonable...

NC is an open carry state. So the main question is if he had a gun in his hand as he came out of the car. Which even after all this still isn't clear for some reason. He was an open target for multiple police officers who we all behind cover. And while his head and body turned he was shot while never even attempting to move his arms. I can't tell you what was going through his head. He was either looking for conflicted which he had no way out of but death. Or he was scared out of his mind and reacted poorly which resulted in his death. At the end of the day police had way more control over the situation and his life then he ever had over theirs.

I don't understand the argument if he had a gun in his hands then we need to examine his mental state or wait to see if he raises and fire or he is reacting poorly to commands...All that is just crazy to me..Everyone is trying to get home to their family. If I'm a police officer, I'm not trying to find out if his bullets can pierce the car I'm trying to hide behind or if he is upset or medicated etc...If you have a gun in hand and you refuse to drop it and you are backtracking like some one in combat then all bets are off...Put yourself in the situation, If you had a gun and think you life is in danger and the other person has a gun, are you going to shoot him in the leg and see what happens next??

I keep thinking back and forth on this and it's hard to really take clear position. Openly carrying a gun around is completely legal in NC. This person like everyone else knows the police are probably going to shoot and kill him in this situation based on the history of several such shootings this year. Right or wrong what do you expect him to do? If he complies and they still shoot him he didn't give himself a fighting chance. This is the dilemma created in people's mind by unchecked police brutality.

Also it's a failure of the gun laws that allow people to openly carry but doesn't provide the police with proper protocol for deescalating.

I have a concealed weapons license. At no time in my life have I or will I, take it out during a traffic stop, hold it in my hand, then refuse to drop it when asked by several police officers. And you should "expect" everyone in their right mind to do the same. However, I do agree that the process for obtaining a gun is way too easy and needs stricter requirements. It is a sad commentary that it is easier to obtain a gun than it is to obtain a driver's license. Also, police have a ridiculously hard job, but there needs to be more training on how to defuse a situation. Some of these shootings are clearly showing certain officers are just not ready for the stress of a life or death situation.

NC is open carry, so there's no reason for him to hide it. I don't know your ethnicity, but I can see why black people may justifiably fear for their life when surrounded by the police. If you think you are going to be shot (not sure how many points in your life you felt that) you too would try to defend yourself. This man had no idea if the police would let him live assuming he even had a gun in his hands. And when both your wife and the police are screaming different things at you, you can get easily confused in a very stressful situation. The man sitting in his car minding his own business and not breaking any laws, There was no "situation" till the Police went out of their way to create one.

There is nothing to get confused about. The first words out of your mouth are "officer, I have a legal hand gun". Situation diffused

Situation diffused? Tell that to the guy shot dead in Tulsa.

So then when the police approached, if he put his hands on the steering wheel and said "officer, I have a legal firearm" that they would have shot him anyway?

No one knows what they would have done, but recent history has shown it's a very real possibility.

why was he out of his car? and the way he went back to get something, if I was a cop I would have certainly feared that he was going for a gun.

It would be nice if people were trained on what to do when pulled over to not scare the sh1t out of the cops.

Have you ever had a cop draw his gun on you? I have! My Dad is a retired Police Lieutenant and I still was unsure of what to do in that moment. I was in South
Jamaica, Queens, in the dead of winter, in the mid 80's and we had called the police because a rental property was broken into. I was on the porch and when one of the cops approached I started to direct him over and when he got close I was standing there with my hands in my pockets cuz it was cold. He put his hands on his gun and told me to take my hands out of my pockets slowly. I just remember locking up and thinking what is the right speed to move? If I go too slow it may freak him out and if it's too fast... Thank God nothing happened but it was a very scary situation and I can tell you that when you see a Gun in a cop's hand and he's got a stern look on his face you will panic. The thing is I told him we were the ones who called but he was dead serious about seeing my hands.

My thing with all of this is that Civilians are expected to react in a perfect way to situations that they are not used to. Cops do this all the time and are used to the weird reactions people have and should not be panicking and just shooting people who have their wallet in their hands or NOTHING in their hands. Even when someone has a gun in their hands a cop still has to be professional and follow proper tactics.

that poor guy did not mean to do what he did but these guys need to be trained as well. I have been pulled over > 100 times and of course, I would never ever get out of the car. I follow a protocol because a state trooper once told me exactly what scares cops and what you need to do to alleviate that fear. Guess what ... its gotten me out of almost every ticket :-)

I get that some people have no idea what to do ... what can be done about that?

I have heard a while back that they have started educational training on how to comply with police in schools.

IMO it's not about the Civilians!!! This is a police training thing. There are too many situations where cops are panicking and it's simply not about what the Civilians are doing. You can't possibly prepare every person in America to know what will trip a nervous cops trigger or an overbearing cop. Also cops are going to be dealing with mentally disabled people, drunk people, angry people. They are the professionals and must understand how to handle these different scenarios better.

completely disagree!

How about we start with training the normal people first? Drunks and mentally disabled are not the main problem. You can't just look at this one sided, of course the cops need to be train and they get tons of training and IMHO, cops are mostly doing a good job in most tough circumstances even though we only see the bad outcomes in the press.

Everyone needs to be trained! Why not train high school kids who are getting ready to drive what to do when you are stopped by a police officer? What you should not do that can instill fear in them and possibly become tight on the trigger? How about not getting out of your car when you are pulled over? How about showing your hands clearly at all times, especially when told a number of times? How about not reaching for anything especially when not asked? And, when you do it, do it slowly? I tell this to my kids all the time ... don't do something stupid and put your life at risk.

Do you really think that cops want to go around shooting people? Do you know how awful that situation is for them when it happens? Especially if it turns out that they what scared them such as an abrupt reach turns out to be just a mistake and now they have to deal with having shot or killed someone?

Is there police brutality at times? Absolutely! Can they have ego's and bad tempers? Of course! The last thing that we should be doing is provoking these bad apples, and of course we should never be scaring the good apples.

When you get pulled over, especially at night, turn on your interior light and put your hands on top of the steering wheel where they can easily be seen by the approaching officer(s). Then, don't do anything or say anything until your are asked or told to do it. Don't argue, act rude, be an azz, stick a camera in their face, tell them that your taxes pay their salaries, tell them that you will see them in court ...

And always always always treat the officer with respect. If you do, you have a much better chance at them returning the respect.

You are talking like cops are somehow victims of civilians simply being human, when they are in fact the ones who have gone to the Police Academy and have thousands of hours of encounters with civilians unlike the average civilian who may only encounter police once or twice in years. A class in school may not be enough to prepare a person for every scenario that may randomly come upon them. People are getting shot even when they comply!!!

You keep forgetting that my FATHER was a cop as well as my uncle. I know what it's like to live in that world. Simply teaching kids the basics of dealing with Police is no guarantee that they will be able to stay safe in dealing with police. Have you not been paying attention to anything that's been going on? You are assuming a lot and putting a lot on the Civilian but in most cases it's the cop that is armed and they need to do a better job of de-escalating situations.

So should civilians be trained or not? The points that I mentioned in my last post, should these types of things be taught? If we don't, won't these civilians be much more at risk?

I said it many times, everyone needs to be trained! Cops and civilians. I still have a big problem with the cops trained to go for so many kill shots but that's a different argument.

Nix, do you train your kids on how to deal with police officers? If yes then they are lucky. The ones that don't have parents or teachers that train them will be much more at risk.

I don't know any Black Parents that don't talk to their kids about the Police! This isn't some new phenomena that is taking place. As far back as I can remember there's always been a certain fear of the Police even with my Dad being on the force. First during Slavery and then during the 100 years of Jim Crow. The Police were used to oppress and control Black people. Perhaps you've forgotten the 60's Civil Rights Movement and how Police were used to crack down viciously on protesters. The relationship between Black people and the police in this country goes all the way back to the beginning.

Jim Crow Policing
By BOB HERBERT FEB. 1, 2010

The New York City Police Department needs to be restrained. The nonstop humiliation of young black and Hispanic New Yorkers, including children, by police officers who feel no obligation to treat them fairly or with any respect at all is an abomination. That many of the officers engaged in the mistreatment are black or Latino themselves is shameful.

Statistics will be out shortly about the total number of people who were stopped and frisked by the police in 2009. We already have the data for the first three-quarters of the year, and they are staggering. During that period, more than 450,000 people were stopped by the cops, an increase of 13 percent over the same period in 2008.

An overwhelming 84 percent of the stops in the first three-quarters of 2009 were of black or Hispanic New Yorkers. It is incredible how few of the stops yielded any law enforcement benefit. Contraband, which usually means drugs, was found in only 1.6 percent of the stops of black New Yorkers. For Hispanics, it was just 1.5 percent. For whites, who are stopped far less frequently, contraband was found 2.2 percent of the time.

The percentages of stops that yielded weapons were even smaller. Weapons were found on just 1.1 percent of the blacks stopped, 1.4 percent of the Hispanics, and 1.7 percent of the whites. Only about 6 percent of stops result in an arrest for any reason.

Rather than a legitimate crime-fighting tool, these stops are a despicable, racially oriented tool of harassment. And the police are using it at the increasingly enthusiastic direction of Mayor Michael Bloomberg and Police Commissioner Ray Kelly.

There were more than a half-million stops in New York City in 2008, and when the final tally is in, we’ll find that the number only increased in 2009.

Not everyone who is stopped is frisked. When broken down by ethnic group, the percentages do not at first seem so wildly disproportionate. Some 59.4 percent of all Hispanics who were stopped were also frisked, as were 56.6 percent of blacks, and 46 percent of whites. But keep in mind, whites composed fewer than 16 percent of the people stopped in the first place.

These encounters with the police are degrading and often frightening, and the real number of people harassed is undoubtedly higher than the numbers reported by the police. Often the cops will stop, frisk and sometimes taunt people who are at their mercy, and then move on — without finding anything, making an arrest, or recording the encounter as they are supposed to.

Even the official reasons given by the police for the stops are laughably bogus. People are stopped for allegedly making “furtive movements,” for wearing clothes “commonly used in a crime,” and, of course, for the “suspicious bulge.” My wallet, my notebook and my cellphone would all apply.

The police say they also stop people for wearing “inappropriate attire for the season.” I saw a guy on the Upper West Side wearing shorts and sandals a couple weeks ago. That was certainly unusual attire for the middle of January, but it didn’t cross my mind that he should be accosted by the police.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/02/opinion/02herbert.html

Thank goodness they ruled this practice unconstitutional in NYC but there are other cities that still use versions of this style of policing.

IMO it's a very wide spread issue and it not only manifests itself in how police deal with minorities but also poor whites as well. Things have started to get better in some Police forces but more needs to be done to improve things everywhere.

Nobody is arguing if there is/isn't/shouldn't be racial profiling.

I am making a point that I don't think that the kids and some adults have a clue about how to act when stopped by a police officer. Once a guy gets out of his car, he is already in big trouble and he very well may get hurt or even shot.

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Rookie wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Rookie wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:I saw the video of the North Carolina shooting..I didn't see a gun but Lamont Scott looked like he had a gun, he was walking like he was holding a gun..He simple didn't look like a person backing away from a conflict...He had an object in his right hand. I can't fault the police here...

His main flaw was not coming out with his hands up and attempting to slowly lay on the ground. I can't speak for the officers but I don't feel that he presented any real tldanger to them. Their were multiple officers. They had taken cover behind their vehicles. The man walked out of the car like they requested. When he turned his head to witness all the different officers present is when they took him as a threat. With all that said was there a need for the multiple guns shots with the shoot to kill mentality? Would a shoulder/leg shot not be a more appropriate action in this instance?

If he had a gun in his hand then this is all moot...Dude had a gun holster around his left ankle around his white socks, I saw it, I slowed, froze, the frame from the police body cam...If he had a gun in his hands, all bets are off...Look at the police officer's point of view..You told him to drop the gun several times, he got out the car with gun in hand and moved around in a manner not to resolve the conflict..Be reasonable...

NC is an open carry state. So the main question is if he had a gun in his hand as he came out of the car. Which even after all this still isn't clear for some reason. He was an open target for multiple police officers who we all behind cover. And while his head and body turned he was shot while never even attempting to move his arms. I can't tell you what was going through his head. He was either looking for conflicted which he had no way out of but death. Or he was scared out of his mind and reacted poorly which resulted in his death. At the end of the day police had way more control over the situation and his life then he ever had over theirs.

I don't understand the argument if he had a gun in his hands then we need to examine his mental state or wait to see if he raises and fire or he is reacting poorly to commands...All that is just crazy to me..Everyone is trying to get home to their family. If I'm a police officer, I'm not trying to find out if his bullets can pierce the car I'm trying to hide behind or if he is upset or medicated etc...If you have a gun in hand and you refuse to drop it and you are backtracking like some one in combat then all bets are off...Put yourself in the situation, If you had a gun and think you life is in danger and the other person has a gun, are you going to shoot him in the leg and see what happens next??

I keep thinking back and forth on this and it's hard to really take clear position. Openly carrying a gun around is completely legal in NC. This person like everyone else knows the police are probably going to shoot and kill him in this situation based on the history of several such shootings this year. Right or wrong what do you expect him to do? If he complies and they still shoot him he didn't give himself a fighting chance. This is the dilemma created in people's mind by unchecked police brutality.

Also it's a failure of the gun laws that allow people to openly carry but doesn't provide the police with proper protocol for deescalating.

I have a concealed weapons license. At no time in my life have I or will I, take it out during a traffic stop, hold it in my hand, then refuse to drop it when asked by several police officers. And you should "expect" everyone in their right mind to do the same. However, I do agree that the process for obtaining a gun is way too easy and needs stricter requirements. It is a sad commentary that it is easier to obtain a gun than it is to obtain a driver's license. Also, police have a ridiculously hard job, but there needs to be more training on how to defuse a situation. Some of these shootings are clearly showing certain officers are just not ready for the stress of a life or death situation.

NC is open carry, so there's no reason for him to hide it. I don't know your ethnicity, but I can see why black people may justifiably fear for their life when surrounded by the police. If you think you are going to be shot (not sure how many points in your life you felt that) you too would try to defend yourself. This man had no idea if the police would let him live assuming he even had a gun in his hands. And when both your wife and the police are screaming different things at you, you can get easily confused in a very stressful situation. The man sitting in his car minding his own business and not breaking any laws, There was no "situation" till the Police went out of their way to create one.

There is nothing to get confused about. The first words out of your mouth are "officer, I have a legal hand gun". Situation diffused

Situation diffused? Tell that to the guy shot dead in Tulsa.

So then when the police approached, if he put his hands on the steering wheel and said "officer, I have a legal firearm" that they would have shot him anyway?

No one knows what they would have done, but recent history has shown it's a very real possibility.

why was he out of his car? and the way he went back to get something, if I was a cop I would have certainly feared that he was going for a gun.

It would be nice if people were trained on what to do when pulled over to not scare the sh1t out of the cops.

Have you ever had a cop draw his gun on you? I have! My Dad is a retired Police Lieutenant and I still was unsure of what to do in that moment. I was in South
Jamaica, Queens, in the dead of winter, in the mid 80's and we had called the police because a rental property was broken into. I was on the porch and when one of the cops approached I started to direct him over and when he got close I was standing there with my hands in my pockets cuz it was cold. He put his hands on his gun and told me to take my hands out of my pockets slowly. I just remember locking up and thinking what is the right speed to move? If I go too slow it may freak him out and if it's too fast... Thank God nothing happened but it was a very scary situation and I can tell you that when you see a Gun in a cop's hand and he's got a stern look on his face you will panic. The thing is I told him we were the ones who called but he was dead serious about seeing my hands.

My thing with all of this is that Civilians are expected to react in a perfect way to situations that they are not used to. Cops do this all the time and are used to the weird reactions people have and should not be panicking and just shooting people who have their wallet in their hands or NOTHING in their hands. Even when someone has a gun in their hands a cop still has to be professional and follow proper tactics.

that poor guy did not mean to do what he did but these guys need to be trained as well. I have been pulled over > 100 times and of course, I would never ever get out of the car. I follow a protocol because a state trooper once told me exactly what scares cops and what you need to do to alleviate that fear. Guess what ... its gotten me out of almost every ticket :-)

I get that some people have no idea what to do ... what can be done about that?

I have heard a while back that they have started educational training on how to comply with police in schools.

IMO it's not about the Civilians!!! This is a police training thing. There are too many situations where cops are panicking and it's simply not about what the Civilians are doing. You can't possibly prepare every person in America to know what will trip a nervous cops trigger or an overbearing cop. Also cops are going to be dealing with mentally disabled people, drunk people, angry people. They are the professionals and must understand how to handle these different scenarios better.

completely disagree!

How about we start with training the normal people first? Drunks and mentally disabled are not the main problem. You can't just look at this one sided, of course the cops need to be train and they get tons of training and IMHO, cops are mostly doing a good job in most tough circumstances even though we only see the bad outcomes in the press.

Everyone needs to be trained! Why not train high school kids who are getting ready to drive what to do when you are stopped by a police officer? What you should not do that can instill fear in them and possibly become tight on the trigger? How about not getting out of your car when you are pulled over? How about showing your hands clearly at all times, especially when told a number of times? How about not reaching for anything especially when not asked? And, when you do it, do it slowly? I tell this to my kids all the time ... don't do something stupid and put your life at risk.

Do you really think that cops want to go around shooting people? Do you know how awful that situation is for them when it happens? Especially if it turns out that they what scared them such as an abrupt reach turns out to be just a mistake and now they have to deal with having shot or killed someone?

Is there police brutality at times? Absolutely! Can they have ego's and bad tempers? Of course! The last thing that we should be doing is provoking these bad apples, and of course we should never be scaring the good apples.

When you get pulled over, especially at night, turn on your interior light and put your hands on top of the steering wheel where they can easily be seen by the approaching officer(s). Then, don't do anything or say anything until your are asked or told to do it. Don't argue, act rude, be an azz, stick a camera in their face, tell them that your taxes pay their salaries, tell them that you will see them in court ...

And always always always treat the officer with respect. If you do, you have a much better chance at them returning the respect.

You are talking like cops are somehow victims of civilians simply being human, when they are in fact the ones who have gone to the Police Academy and have thousands of hours of encounters with civilians unlike the average civilian who may only encounter police once or twice in years. A class in school may not be enough to prepare a person for every scenario that may randomly come upon them. People are getting shot even when they comply!!!

You keep forgetting that my FATHER was a cop as well as my uncle. I know what it's like to live in that world. Simply teaching kids the basics of dealing with Police is no guarantee that they will be able to stay safe in dealing with police. Have you not been paying attention to anything that's been going on? You are assuming a lot and putting a lot on the Civilian but in most cases it's the cop that is armed and they need to do a better job of de-escalating situations.

So should civilians be trained or not? The points that I mentioned in my last post, should these types of things be taught? If we don't, won't these civilians be much more at risk?

I said it many times, everyone needs to be trained! Cops and civilians. I still have a big problem with the cops trained to go for so many kill shots but that's a different argument.

Nix, do you train your kids on how to deal with police officers? If yes then they are lucky. The ones that don't have parents or teachers that train them will be much more at risk.

I don't know any Black Parents that don't talk to their kids about the Police! This isn't some new phenomena that is taking place. As far back as I can remember there's always been a certain fear of the Police even with my Dad being on the force. First during Slavery and then during the 100 years of Jim Crow. The Police were used to oppress and control Black people. Perhaps you've forgotten the 60's Civil Rights Movement and how Police were used to crack down viciously on protesters. The relationship between Black people and the police in this country goes all the way back to the beginning.

Jim Crow Policing
By BOB HERBERT FEB. 1, 2010

The New York City Police Department needs to be restrained. The nonstop humiliation of young black and Hispanic New Yorkers, including children, by police officers who feel no obligation to treat them fairly or with any respect at all is an abomination. That many of the officers engaged in the mistreatment are black or Latino themselves is shameful.

Statistics will be out shortly about the total number of people who were stopped and frisked by the police in 2009. We already have the data for the first three-quarters of the year, and they are staggering. During that period, more than 450,000 people were stopped by the cops, an increase of 13 percent over the same period in 2008.

An overwhelming 84 percent of the stops in the first three-quarters of 2009 were of black or Hispanic New Yorkers. It is incredible how few of the stops yielded any law enforcement benefit. Contraband, which usually means drugs, was found in only 1.6 percent of the stops of black New Yorkers. For Hispanics, it was just 1.5 percent. For whites, who are stopped far less frequently, contraband was found 2.2 percent of the time.

The percentages of stops that yielded weapons were even smaller. Weapons were found on just 1.1 percent of the blacks stopped, 1.4 percent of the Hispanics, and 1.7 percent of the whites. Only about 6 percent of stops result in an arrest for any reason.

Rather than a legitimate crime-fighting tool, these stops are a despicable, racially oriented tool of harassment. And the police are using it at the increasingly enthusiastic direction of Mayor Michael Bloomberg and Police Commissioner Ray Kelly.

There were more than a half-million stops in New York City in 2008, and when the final tally is in, we’ll find that the number only increased in 2009.

Not everyone who is stopped is frisked. When broken down by ethnic group, the percentages do not at first seem so wildly disproportionate. Some 59.4 percent of all Hispanics who were stopped were also frisked, as were 56.6 percent of blacks, and 46 percent of whites. But keep in mind, whites composed fewer than 16 percent of the people stopped in the first place.

These encounters with the police are degrading and often frightening, and the real number of people harassed is undoubtedly higher than the numbers reported by the police. Often the cops will stop, frisk and sometimes taunt people who are at their mercy, and then move on — without finding anything, making an arrest, or recording the encounter as they are supposed to.

Even the official reasons given by the police for the stops are laughably bogus. People are stopped for allegedly making “furtive movements,” for wearing clothes “commonly used in a crime,” and, of course, for the “suspicious bulge.” My wallet, my notebook and my cellphone would all apply.

The police say they also stop people for wearing “inappropriate attire for the season.” I saw a guy on the Upper West Side wearing shorts and sandals a couple weeks ago. That was certainly unusual attire for the middle of January, but it didn’t cross my mind that he should be accosted by the police.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/02/opinion/02herbert.html

Thank goodness they ruled this practice unconstitutional in NYC but there are other cities that still use versions of this style of policing.

IMO it's a very wide spread issue and it not only manifests itself in how police deal with minorities but also poor whites as well. Things have started to get better in some Police forces but more needs to be done to improve things everywhere.

Nobody is arguing if there is/isn't/shouldn't be racial profiling.

I am making a point that I don't think that the kids and some adults have a clue about how to act when stopped by a police officer. Once a guy gets out of his car, he is already in big trouble and he very well may get hurt or even shot.

That is a Police officer's responsibility. The fact that some people get out of the car doesn't necessarily mean that the officer has to hurt them. Police know that civilians do strange things and it's really not something they are unprepared for. Unless a cop is a rookie, they have most likely seen just about every possible reaction. They should not be operating in constant fear like a civilian would react to the situation. Shooting someone has to be a last resort and not something an officer does at the slightest provocation.

wow ... you get your tunnel vision and its over. To you its always just one sided. No grey for you ever.

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Rookie wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Rookie wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:I saw the video of the North Carolina shooting..I didn't see a gun but Lamont Scott looked like he had a gun, he was walking like he was holding a gun..He simple didn't look like a person backing away from a conflict...He had an object in his right hand. I can't fault the police here...

His main flaw was not coming out with his hands up and attempting to slowly lay on the ground. I can't speak for the officers but I don't feel that he presented any real tldanger to them. Their were multiple officers. They had taken cover behind their vehicles. The man walked out of the car like they requested. When he turned his head to witness all the different officers present is when they took him as a threat. With all that said was there a need for the multiple guns shots with the shoot to kill mentality? Would a shoulder/leg shot not be a more appropriate action in this instance?

If he had a gun in his hand then this is all moot...Dude had a gun holster around his left ankle around his white socks, I saw it, I slowed, froze, the frame from the police body cam...If he had a gun in his hands, all bets are off...Look at the police officer's point of view..You told him to drop the gun several times, he got out the car with gun in hand and moved around in a manner not to resolve the conflict..Be reasonable...

NC is an open carry state. So the main question is if he had a gun in his hand as he came out of the car. Which even after all this still isn't clear for some reason. He was an open target for multiple police officers who we all behind cover. And while his head and body turned he was shot while never even attempting to move his arms. I can't tell you what was going through his head. He was either looking for conflicted which he had no way out of but death. Or he was scared out of his mind and reacted poorly which resulted in his death. At the end of the day police had way more control over the situation and his life then he ever had over theirs.

I don't understand the argument if he had a gun in his hands then we need to examine his mental state or wait to see if he raises and fire or he is reacting poorly to commands...All that is just crazy to me..Everyone is trying to get home to their family. If I'm a police officer, I'm not trying to find out if his bullets can pierce the car I'm trying to hide behind or if he is upset or medicated etc...If you have a gun in hand and you refuse to drop it and you are backtracking like some one in combat then all bets are off...Put yourself in the situation, If you had a gun and think you life is in danger and the other person has a gun, are you going to shoot him in the leg and see what happens next??

I keep thinking back and forth on this and it's hard to really take clear position. Openly carrying a gun around is completely legal in NC. This person like everyone else knows the police are probably going to shoot and kill him in this situation based on the history of several such shootings this year. Right or wrong what do you expect him to do? If he complies and they still shoot him he didn't give himself a fighting chance. This is the dilemma created in people's mind by unchecked police brutality.

Also it's a failure of the gun laws that allow people to openly carry but doesn't provide the police with proper protocol for deescalating.

I have a concealed weapons license. At no time in my life have I or will I, take it out during a traffic stop, hold it in my hand, then refuse to drop it when asked by several police officers. And you should "expect" everyone in their right mind to do the same. However, I do agree that the process for obtaining a gun is way too easy and needs stricter requirements. It is a sad commentary that it is easier to obtain a gun than it is to obtain a driver's license. Also, police have a ridiculously hard job, but there needs to be more training on how to defuse a situation. Some of these shootings are clearly showing certain officers are just not ready for the stress of a life or death situation.

NC is open carry, so there's no reason for him to hide it. I don't know your ethnicity, but I can see why black people may justifiably fear for their life when surrounded by the police. If you think you are going to be shot (not sure how many points in your life you felt that) you too would try to defend yourself. This man had no idea if the police would let him live assuming he even had a gun in his hands. And when both your wife and the police are screaming different things at you, you can get easily confused in a very stressful situation. The man sitting in his car minding his own business and not breaking any laws, There was no "situation" till the Police went out of their way to create one.

There is nothing to get confused about. The first words out of your mouth are "officer, I have a legal hand gun". Situation diffused

Situation diffused? Tell that to the guy shot dead in Tulsa.

So then when the police approached, if he put his hands on the steering wheel and said "officer, I have a legal firearm" that they would have shot him anyway?

No one knows what they would have done, but recent history has shown it's a very real possibility.

why was he out of his car? and the way he went back to get something, if I was a cop I would have certainly feared that he was going for a gun.

It would be nice if people were trained on what to do when pulled over to not scare the sh1t out of the cops.

Have you ever had a cop draw his gun on you? I have! My Dad is a retired Police Lieutenant and I still was unsure of what to do in that moment. I was in South
Jamaica, Queens, in the dead of winter, in the mid 80's and we had called the police because a rental property was broken into. I was on the porch and when one of the cops approached I started to direct him over and when he got close I was standing there with my hands in my pockets cuz it was cold. He put his hands on his gun and told me to take my hands out of my pockets slowly. I just remember locking up and thinking what is the right speed to move? If I go too slow it may freak him out and if it's too fast... Thank God nothing happened but it was a very scary situation and I can tell you that when you see a Gun in a cop's hand and he's got a stern look on his face you will panic. The thing is I told him we were the ones who called but he was dead serious about seeing my hands.

My thing with all of this is that Civilians are expected to react in a perfect way to situations that they are not used to. Cops do this all the time and are used to the weird reactions people have and should not be panicking and just shooting people who have their wallet in their hands or NOTHING in their hands. Even when someone has a gun in their hands a cop still has to be professional and follow proper tactics.

that poor guy did not mean to do what he did but these guys need to be trained as well. I have been pulled over > 100 times and of course, I would never ever get out of the car. I follow a protocol because a state trooper once told me exactly what scares cops and what you need to do to alleviate that fear. Guess what ... its gotten me out of almost every ticket :-)

I get that some people have no idea what to do ... what can be done about that?

I have heard a while back that they have started educational training on how to comply with police in schools.

IMO it's not about the Civilians!!! This is a police training thing. There are too many situations where cops are panicking and it's simply not about what the Civilians are doing. You can't possibly prepare every person in America to know what will trip a nervous cops trigger or an overbearing cop. Also cops are going to be dealing with mentally disabled people, drunk people, angry people. They are the professionals and must understand how to handle these different scenarios better.

completely disagree!

How about we start with training the normal people first? Drunks and mentally disabled are not the main problem. You can't just look at this one sided, of course the cops need to be train and they get tons of training and IMHO, cops are mostly doing a good job in most tough circumstances even though we only see the bad outcomes in the press.

Everyone needs to be trained! Why not train high school kids who are getting ready to drive what to do when you are stopped by a police officer? What you should not do that can instill fear in them and possibly become tight on the trigger? How about not getting out of your car when you are pulled over? How about showing your hands clearly at all times, especially when told a number of times? How about not reaching for anything especially when not asked? And, when you do it, do it slowly? I tell this to my kids all the time ... don't do something stupid and put your life at risk.

Do you really think that cops want to go around shooting people? Do you know how awful that situation is for them when it happens? Especially if it turns out that they what scared them such as an abrupt reach turns out to be just a mistake and now they have to deal with having shot or killed someone?

Is there police brutality at times? Absolutely! Can they have ego's and bad tempers? Of course! The last thing that we should be doing is provoking these bad apples, and of course we should never be scaring the good apples.

When you get pulled over, especially at night, turn on your interior light and put your hands on top of the steering wheel where they can easily be seen by the approaching officer(s). Then, don't do anything or say anything until your are asked or told to do it. Don't argue, act rude, be an azz, stick a camera in their face, tell them that your taxes pay their salaries, tell them that you will see them in court ...

And always always always treat the officer with respect. If you do, you have a much better chance at them returning the respect.

You are talking like cops are somehow victims of civilians simply being human, when they are in fact the ones who have gone to the Police Academy and have thousands of hours of encounters with civilians unlike the average civilian who may only encounter police once or twice in years. A class in school may not be enough to prepare a person for every scenario that may randomly come upon them. People are getting shot even when they comply!!!

You keep forgetting that my FATHER was a cop as well as my uncle. I know what it's like to live in that world. Simply teaching kids the basics of dealing with Police is no guarantee that they will be able to stay safe in dealing with police. Have you not been paying attention to anything that's been going on? You are assuming a lot and putting a lot on the Civilian but in most cases it's the cop that is armed and they need to do a better job of de-escalating situations.

So should civilians be trained or not? The points that I mentioned in my last post, should these types of things be taught? If we don't, won't these civilians be much more at risk?

I said it many times, everyone needs to be trained! Cops and civilians. I still have a big problem with the cops trained to go for so many kill shots but that's a different argument.

Nix, do you train your kids on how to deal with police officers? If yes then they are lucky. The ones that don't have parents or teachers that train them will be much more at risk.

I don't know any Black Parents that don't talk to their kids about the Police! This isn't some new phenomena that is taking place. As far back as I can remember there's always been a certain fear of the Police even with my Dad being on the force. First during Slavery and then during the 100 years of Jim Crow. The Police were used to oppress and control Black people. Perhaps you've forgotten the 60's Civil Rights Movement and how Police were used to crack down viciously on protesters. The relationship between Black people and the police in this country goes all the way back to the beginning.

Jim Crow Policing
By BOB HERBERT FEB. 1, 2010

The New York City Police Department needs to be restrained. The nonstop humiliation of young black and Hispanic New Yorkers, including children, by police officers who feel no obligation to treat them fairly or with any respect at all is an abomination. That many of the officers engaged in the mistreatment are black or Latino themselves is shameful.

Statistics will be out shortly about the total number of people who were stopped and frisked by the police in 2009. We already have the data for the first three-quarters of the year, and they are staggering. During that period, more than 450,000 people were stopped by the cops, an increase of 13 percent over the same period in 2008.

An overwhelming 84 percent of the stops in the first three-quarters of 2009 were of black or Hispanic New Yorkers. It is incredible how few of the stops yielded any law enforcement benefit. Contraband, which usually means drugs, was found in only 1.6 percent of the stops of black New Yorkers. For Hispanics, it was just 1.5 percent. For whites, who are stopped far less frequently, contraband was found 2.2 percent of the time.

The percentages of stops that yielded weapons were even smaller. Weapons were found on just 1.1 percent of the blacks stopped, 1.4 percent of the Hispanics, and 1.7 percent of the whites. Only about 6 percent of stops result in an arrest for any reason.

Rather than a legitimate crime-fighting tool, these stops are a despicable, racially oriented tool of harassment. And the police are using it at the increasingly enthusiastic direction of Mayor Michael Bloomberg and Police Commissioner Ray Kelly.

There were more than a half-million stops in New York City in 2008, and when the final tally is in, we’ll find that the number only increased in 2009.

Not everyone who is stopped is frisked. When broken down by ethnic group, the percentages do not at first seem so wildly disproportionate. Some 59.4 percent of all Hispanics who were stopped were also frisked, as were 56.6 percent of blacks, and 46 percent of whites. But keep in mind, whites composed fewer than 16 percent of the people stopped in the first place.

These encounters with the police are degrading and often frightening, and the real number of people harassed is undoubtedly higher than the numbers reported by the police. Often the cops will stop, frisk and sometimes taunt people who are at their mercy, and then move on — without finding anything, making an arrest, or recording the encounter as they are supposed to.

Even the official reasons given by the police for the stops are laughably bogus. People are stopped for allegedly making “furtive movements,” for wearing clothes “commonly used in a crime,” and, of course, for the “suspicious bulge.” My wallet, my notebook and my cellphone would all apply.

The police say they also stop people for wearing “inappropriate attire for the season.” I saw a guy on the Upper West Side wearing shorts and sandals a couple weeks ago. That was certainly unusual attire for the middle of January, but it didn’t cross my mind that he should be accosted by the police.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/02/opinion/02herbert.html

Thank goodness they ruled this practice unconstitutional in NYC but there are other cities that still use versions of this style of policing.

IMO it's a very wide spread issue and it not only manifests itself in how police deal with minorities but also poor whites as well. Things have started to get better in some Police forces but more needs to be done to improve things everywhere.

Nobody is arguing if there is/isn't/shouldn't be racial profiling.

I am making a point that I don't think that the kids and some adults have a clue about how to act when stopped by a police officer. Once a guy gets out of his car, he is already in big trouble and he very well may get hurt or even shot.

That is a Police officer's responsibility. The fact that some people get out of the car doesn't necessarily mean that the officer has to hurt them. Police know that civilians do strange things and it's really not something they are unprepared for. Unless a cop is a rookie, they have most likely seen just about every possible reaction. They should not be operating in constant fear like a civilian would react to the situation. Shooting someone has to be a last resort and not something an officer does at the slightest provocation.

wow ... you get your tunnel vision and its over. To you its always just one sided. No grey for you ever.

To be fair, There has been a consistent history of lack of accountability for the actions of police officers. A couple years back and most of this stuff wouldn't even be news. We would always just have to take the Cops and the police departments word for everything allowing them to police however they saw fit even if the actions weren't pure.

I believe Nix main point is the police are in positions of power. With power comes responsibility. The focus needs to be on the people in positions of power who are considered trained professionals in their fields. Kind of similar principals to how you hold Carmelo Anthony accountable from his position of power on the basketball court. Anything else seems like another cop out to avoid accountability.

A homeless veteran was shot 5 times and died by officer Jody Ledoux. He was intoxicated in front of a grocery store. He reached for his cell phone and the officer shot him believing he was reaching for his gun. He didn't comply with the officer request and grabbed something out of a news paper machine prior. I doubt that when he was intoxicated that he would remember anything that he was taught in school about complying with police. From watching the video if you look it up though. The officer put himself in harms way though by walking up to the homeless veteran if he was indeed a threat. Something has to give though. If they are deemed a threat like that then procedure should be for the officer to take cover and use his loud speaker as he identifies the situation. Or if he is to approach the man not viewing him as an immediate threat early on. Then he shouldn't be so quick to fire off 5 shots at the man when he put himself in harms way by approaching him.

I agree with everything you wrote, and I think all these cameras that will make them accountable are great. Any time there is no accountability, there will be inevitable corruption.

And your story of the homeless man is of course tragic and I myself have a big problem with all this loose shooting and kill shots.

Now, you don't provoke a bear. If you will be around bears a lot, you should be trained in how best to behave in order to stay safe.

This was my post ... I am not blaming civilians, I am suggested that we teach them to be smarter:

completely disagree!
How about we start with training the normal people first? Drunks and mentally disabled are not the main problem. You can't just look at this one sided, of course the cops need to be train and they get tons of training and IMHO, cops are mostly doing a good job in most tough circumstances even though we only see the bad outcomes in the press.
Everyone needs to be trained! Why not train high school kids who are getting ready to drive what to do when you are stopped by a police officer? What you should not do that can instill fear in them and possibly become tight on the trigger? How about not getting out of your car when you are pulled over? How about showing your hands clearly at all times, especially when told a number of times? How about not reaching for anything especially when not asked? And, when you do it, do it slowly? I tell this to my kids all the time ... don't do something stupid and put your life at risk.
Do you really think that cops want to go around shooting people? Do you know how awful that situation is for them when it happens? Especially if it turns out that they what scared them such as an abrupt reach turns out to be just a mistake and now they have to deal with having shot or killed someone?
Is there police brutality at times? Absolutely! Can they have ego's and bad tempers? Of course! The last thing that we should be doing is provoking these bad apples, and of course we should never be scaring the good apples.
When you get pulled over, especially at night, turn on your interior light and put your hands on top of the steering wheel where they can easily be seen by the approaching officer(s). Then, don't do anything or say anything until your are asked or told to do it. Don't argue, act rude, be an azz, stick a camera in their face, tell them that your taxes pay their salaries, tell them that you will see them in court ...
And always always always treat the officer with respect. If you do, you have a much better chance at them returning the respect.

meloshouldgo wrote:You are still suggesting we train civilians to fix a problem where the civilians are not the problem. In many of these cases they did nothing to provoke the police. The police went out of their way to create a situation, escalate it and cause general chaos and panic. I know you agree they need to be trained, but more than that they need to be held accountable. Their decision making when confronted with a completely non threatening situation like a guy smoking a joint or a car stalled on the road was absolutely abysmal.

of course I agree but would you not want your children trained? How to not piss off an office especially a dik one?

meloshouldgo wrote:Yes of course I would.

That's all I am saying

Be smart and be safe.

Hopefully we get through this new civil rights era and our kids show us how stupid and ignorant we all are