fishmike wrote:

arkrud wrote:

fishmike wrote:

arkrud wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Yeah, this was another case of bidding against ourselves. Giving him $30 mil more than any other team wasn't enough?! We had to include the NTC too. Jeez.

He would of never signed without the NTC. He knows we would of shipped him somewhere awful. We should of lowered our offer once he demanded that. Honestly I think Phil believed Melo would see the light and he would be able to trade him. He underestimated his stubbornness

You could offer him 4 yrs, 96 mil with a no trade clause or 5/124 without it. Both beat any offer other teams can make. If he'd rather take an inferior offer elsewhere, then he doesn't want to be here. We've been a bad lottery team with him anyway since the signing (40 wins, 97 losses) - so I don't care if he signed elsewhere. To be clear, I would have traded him well before he became an FA but that's ancient history.

No one will give him NTC nut MSG.
NTC is something Melo want to fight for on behalf of the players.
This in his mind is his future legacy as players representative.
Unfortunately to players and fortunately for the game of basketball he himself is an example of everything wrong with NTC.

actually its everything right with the NTC. The players value is capped. Guys like Melo sacrfice money so the NBA's middle class can get paid. So the NTC at least gives the player some control over his career once they sign. Its funny.. money makes it all better right? Imagine your company tells you that you need to move to Clev or Phili because they pay you well and suck it up. Its for the best of the company. Sorry those cities suck to live and you need to move your family. These guys are humans and deserve to make the money they can earn and live where they want to live. If you have earned the right for more control than you have earned the right to exercise that control.

Knicks traded an unprotected pick for Bargs. Knicks are probably in the lottery this year and imagine they win and miss on Ben Simmons. Thats Knick's front office management. However somehow this responsibility is on Melo to "do the right thing" and let the Knicks trade him so they can restock the cupboard after years of poor management while this player carried the load night after night. That strikes you as fair? Reasonable? But its sports and Melo isnt winning here and its OUR team so he should "do the right thing" or face the venom of fans.

I find that thinking incredibly narrow minded, selfish, and having no basis in reality. Might even call it un-American.

NTC will be dual-edge sword. Using is owners will able to negotiate the players contract length and salaries down.
The players protection should be handles using insurance policy not player contracts.
Why fans need to pay with watching crappy product because of some unfortunate player health or personal issues?

America is the country of opportunity but it always was a country of accountability.
Not much later and that's why we as a country start sucking.
Everyone wants entitlements but no one want to be accountable for laziness and selfishness.
Time to stop handing free lunches for those who can use their hands and brains to earn it.
Time to stop the corruption of the minds of American people.

America is NOT a land of accountability. I love my country but it's government and economy are run by people without any accountability, only blame. Do you know why we are trillions in debt, why banks were bailed out at the same time their execs were making millions and even the ones that lost jobs had massive golden parachutes? Do you know why none of those execs has been held accountable? Because the politicians made the laws that facilitated all of it. You go after execs you go after the law makers that made it possible. You know... the ones who need millions in campaign funds (where do those come from again?) to get elected. This is why not a single politician has attacked rich and powerful for lack of accountability, they are floating the bill. The closest we can get are liberals who threaten higher taxes on the wealthy.

Easy to say "this isnt working" with Melo and suggest we need to move on. What I find laughable are the folks that suggest this is his duty. Maybe some of those folks can outline the great success the Knicks had in the 7-8 year before Melo got here? Does that period have relevance in the discussion? Why would any great player come play for an organization with a history of terrible management when they know THEY will be blamed if the ship sinks?

Melo WANTS to be here. He's one of the more respected players around the league. Kick him to the curb and just watch the elite talent lining up to come here. Phil's promise was to change the culture for the players, so guys want to come here.

I am totally agree with you on luck of accountability for politicians and establishment alike.
This is a part of the culture. Those who lead society are not coming from Mars.
They are a reflection of the society. We lost our way collectively and they represent this fact perfectly.
The only way to move society forward is working hard to earn your leaving and ask same from others.
This how America was build. This how things in America are still getting done by Middle class, by those who create wealth not by those who consume it.

I am not blaming Melo for anything. He is working hard. He earned the money he get paid.
The MSG management is not. They made bad decisions and they are the once to take the blame and work on reversing the trend.

arkrud wrote:

fishmike wrote:

arkrud wrote:

fishmike wrote:

arkrud wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Yeah, this was another case of bidding against ourselves. Giving him $30 mil more than any other team wasn't enough?! We had to include the NTC too. Jeez.

He would of never signed without the NTC. He knows we would of shipped him somewhere awful. We should of lowered our offer once he demanded that. Honestly I think Phil believed Melo would see the light and he would be able to trade him. He underestimated his stubbornness

You could offer him 4 yrs, 96 mil with a no trade clause or 5/124 without it. Both beat any offer other teams can make. If he'd rather take an inferior offer elsewhere, then he doesn't want to be here. We've been a bad lottery team with him anyway since the signing (40 wins, 97 losses) - so I don't care if he signed elsewhere. To be clear, I would have traded him well before he became an FA but that's ancient history.

No one will give him NTC nut MSG.
NTC is something Melo want to fight for on behalf of the players.
This in his mind is his future legacy as players representative.
Unfortunately to players and fortunately for the game of basketball he himself is an example of everything wrong with NTC.

actually its everything right with the NTC. The players value is capped. Guys like Melo sacrfice money so the NBA's middle class can get paid. So the NTC at least gives the player some control over his career once they sign. Its funny.. money makes it all better right? Imagine your company tells you that you need to move to Clev or Phili because they pay you well and suck it up. Its for the best of the company. Sorry those cities suck to live and you need to move your family. These guys are humans and deserve to make the money they can earn and live where they want to live. If you have earned the right for more control than you have earned the right to exercise that control.

Knicks traded an unprotected pick for Bargs. Knicks are probably in the lottery this year and imagine they win and miss on Ben Simmons. Thats Knick's front office management. However somehow this responsibility is on Melo to "do the right thing" and let the Knicks trade him so they can restock the cupboard after years of poor management while this player carried the load night after night. That strikes you as fair? Reasonable? But its sports and Melo isnt winning here and its OUR team so he should "do the right thing" or face the venom of fans.

I find that thinking incredibly narrow minded, selfish, and having no basis in reality. Might even call it un-American.

NTC will be dual-edge sword. Using is owners will able to negotiate the players contract length and salaries down.
The players protection should be handles using insurance policy not player contracts.
Why fans need to pay with watching crappy product because of some unfortunate player health or personal issues?

America is the country of opportunity but it always was a country of accountability.
Not much later and that's why we as a country start sucking.
Everyone wants entitlements but no one want to be accountable for laziness and selfishness.
Time to stop handing free lunches for those who can use their hands and brains to earn it.
Time to stop the corruption of the minds of American people.

America is NOT a land of accountability. I love my country but it's government and economy are run by people without any accountability, only blame. Do you know why we are trillions in debt, why banks were bailed out at the same time their execs were making millions and even the ones that lost jobs had massive golden parachutes? Do you know why none of those execs has been held accountable? Because the politicians made the laws that facilitated all of it. You go after execs you go after the law makers that made it possible. You know... the ones who need millions in campaign funds (where do those come from again?) to get elected. This is why not a single politician has attacked rich and powerful for lack of accountability, they are floating the bill. The closest we can get are liberals who threaten higher taxes on the wealthy.

Easy to say "this isnt working" with Melo and suggest we need to move on. What I find laughable are the folks that suggest this is his duty. Maybe some of those folks can outline the great success the Knicks had in the 7-8 year before Melo got here? Does that period have relevance in the discussion? Why would any great player come play for an organization with a history of terrible management when they know THEY will be blamed if the ship sinks?

Melo WANTS to be here. He's one of the more respected players around the league. Kick him to the curb and just watch the elite talent lining up to come here. Phil's promise was to change the culture for the players, so guys want to come here.

I am totally agree with you on luck of accountability for politicians and establishment alike.
This is a part of the culture. Those who lead society are not coming from Mars.
They are a reflection of the society. We lost our way collectively and they represent this fact perfectly.
The only way to move society forward is working hard to earn your leaving and ask same from others.
This how America was build. This how things in America are still getting done by Middle class, by those who create wealth not by those who consume it.

I am not blaming Melo for anything. He is working hard. He earned the money he get paid.
The MSG management is not. They made bad decisions and they are the once to take the blame and work on reversing the trend.

So when I see his production, the changes he's made to his game, his off the court leadership in getting the team together to practice to before the preseason and then I read threads from guys who don't understand why he's not doing his duty by going to crappy Cleveland I am honestly perplexed. What it tells me is that guys are emotional and posting based on feelings and not logic or what their eyes are actually seeing. Just my .02

what Melo has shown under Phil is exactly what I want on my roster as I build and move forward. But don't take my word for it. Read some of KP's quotes on the subject.

fishmike wrote:My final point on this subject is Melo is NOT a depreciating asset. His value is growing. His game is improving. His defense has improved, his playmaking/passing has improved and he's at a career high for rebounding. His salary is increasing at a rate much smaller than the cap. So if you took economics or any math past as Melo's contract % of the Knicks cap DECREASES, his value INCREASES. But yea... again, that's just one guy trying to bring logic into the chat

fishmike wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:My final point on this subject is Melo is NOT a depreciating asset. His value is growing. His game is improving. His defense has improved, his playmaking/passing has improved and he's at a career high for rebounding. His salary is increasing at a rate much smaller than the cap. So if you took economics or any math past as Melo's contract % of the Knicks cap DECREASES, his value INCREASES. But yea... again, that's just one guy trying to bring logic into the chat

you keep missing the point. NOBODY said he is a depreciating asset, you created that. People simply said a trade would benefit both melo and the knicks. Melo could have a a excellent chance to win a ring this year and we can build for the future which might be the smarter thing to do for longterm success. Its not melo bashing at all, in fact people haver complimented him quite a bit this year even his detractors.

Sorry... what were you lying about?

Vmart wrote:Melo is a liability all because of NTC. We cannot view him as an asset. His rate of depreciation is staggering with each passing year.

meloshouldgo wrote:Agree with the first part he is a liability. But you can't trade liabilities unless you do a swap meaning you as acquire other liabilities. Or you can just write them off. We don't have any good options.

gunsnewing wrote: Giving maxing money and years + NTC to declining/broken down 30+ Players H20, Melo.

These are the types of posts I was responding to. Which results in you calling me a Melo lover or the Melo brigade leader. Funny going through this thread there is yet another example of you saying something snarky and backing off with your I was just kidding and take it easy BS.

fishmike wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:My final point on this subject is Melo is NOT a depreciating asset. His value is growing. His game is improving. His defense has improved, his playmaking/passing has improved and he's at a career high for rebounding. His salary is increasing at a rate much smaller than the cap. So if you took economics or any math past as Melo's contract % of the Knicks cap DECREASES, his value INCREASES. But yea... again, that's just one guy trying to bring logic into the chat

you keep missing the point. NOBODY said he is a depreciating asset, you created that. People simply said a trade would benefit both melo and the knicks. Melo could have a a excellent chance to win a ring this year and we can build for the future which might be the smarter thing to do for longterm success. Its not melo bashing at all, in fact people haver complimented him quite a bit this year even his detractors.

Sorry... what were you lying about?

Vmart wrote:Melo is a liability all because of NTC. We cannot view him as an asset. His rate of depreciation is staggering with each passing year.

meloshouldgo wrote:Agree with the first part he is a liability. But you can't trade liabilities unless you do a swap meaning you as acquire other liabilities. Or you can just write them off. We don't have any good options.

gunsnewing wrote: Giving maxing money and years + NTC to declining/broken down 30+ Players H20, Melo.

These are the types of posts I was responding to. Which results in you calling me a Melo lover or the Melo brigade leader. Funny going through this thread there is yet another example of you saying something snarky and backing off with your I was just kidding and take it easy BS.

Let me know when you want to talk basketball and i will be more than happy to

Probably around the same time you can actually be accountable for the words you post. You said Im missing the point. I wasnt. Sorry if you are wrong. Do *you* want to talk about basketball? Seems you mostly comment on how other people feel about things, and less about the things themselves. Want some examples of that as well? Its a slow at work

fishmike wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:My final point on this subject is Melo is NOT a depreciating asset. His value is growing. His game is improving. His defense has improved, his playmaking/passing has improved and he's at a career high for rebounding. His salary is increasing at a rate much smaller than the cap. So if you took economics or any math past as Melo's contract % of the Knicks cap DECREASES, his value INCREASES. But yea... again, that's just one guy trying to bring logic into the chat

you keep missing the point. NOBODY said he is a depreciating asset, you created that. People simply said a trade would benefit both melo and the knicks. Melo could have a a excellent chance to win a ring this year and we can build for the future which might be the smarter thing to do for longterm success. Its not melo bashing at all, in fact people haver complimented him quite a bit this year even his detractors.

Sorry... what were you lying about?

Vmart wrote:Melo is a liability all because of NTC. We cannot view him as an asset. His rate of depreciation is staggering with each passing year.

meloshouldgo wrote:Agree with the first part he is a liability. But you can't trade liabilities unless you do a swap meaning you as acquire other liabilities. Or you can just write them off. We don't have any good options.

gunsnewing wrote: Giving maxing money and years + NTC to declining/broken down 30+ Players H20, Melo.

These are the types of posts I was responding to. Which results in you calling me a Melo lover or the Melo brigade leader. Funny going through this thread there is yet another example of you saying something snarky and backing off with your I was just kidding and take it easy BS.

Let me know when you want to talk basketball and i will be more than happy to

Probably around the same time you can actually be accountable for the words you post. You said Im missing the point. I wasnt. Sorry if you are wrong. Do *you* want to talk about basketball? Seems you mostly comment on how other people feel about things, and less about the things themselves. Want some examples of that as well? Its a slow at work

Can we end this crap? Getting back to hoops im fine with melo on the team. I admit i feel a trade is better for our future but it doesnt get me mad that we didnt make a trade. The most important thing is KP since he Will lead the knicks for years. If melo can help him thats great.

Dont ask me, do it yourself. This is a message board. All we have are words. You said I was missing the point and nobody said what I claimed. I provided 3 examples to the contrary. Be accountable or dont be. That is your choice.

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:My final point on this subject is Melo is NOT a depreciating asset. His value is growing. His game is improving. His defense has improved, his playmaking/passing has improved and he's at a career high for rebounding. His salary is increasing at a rate much smaller than the cap. So if you took economics or any math past as Melo's contract % of the Knicks cap DECREASES, his value INCREASES. But yea... again, that's just one guy trying to bring logic into the chat

you keep missing the point. NOBODY said he is a depreciating asset, you created that. People simply said a trade would benefit both melo and the knicks. Melo could have a a excellent chance to win a ring this year and we can build for the future which might be the smarter thing to do for longterm success. Its not melo bashing at all, in fact people haver complimented him quite a bit this year even his detractors.

Sorry... what were you lying about?

Vmart wrote:Melo is a liability all because of NTC. We cannot view him as an asset. His rate of depreciation is staggering with each passing year.

meloshouldgo wrote:Agree with the first part he is a liability. But you can't trade liabilities unless you do a swap meaning you as acquire other liabilities. Or you can just write them off. We don't have any good options.

gunsnewing wrote: Giving maxing money and years + NTC to declining/broken down 30+ Players H20, Melo.

These are the types of posts I was responding to. Which results in you calling me a Melo lover or the Melo brigade leader. Funny going through this thread there is yet another example of you saying something snarky and backing off with your I was just kidding and take it easy BS.

Let me know when you want to talk basketball and i will be more than happy to

this is what i was talking about in the other thread. fish provides 3 examples countering what you said and then you get super defensive and respond passively aggressively. i dunno, it's just really weird. you seem like a good guy, my point is that maybe you shouldn't take things to heart so much around here.

newyorknewyork wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Weve had 15 years of guys getting dumb contracts --we dont protect picks--and the one time we try to give up a pick for a player that wouldve made a difference--Dolan squashed it. I think if you give someone 150mm$ contract--you have the right to say no to NTC. Not only is it a right its a NO brainer. Carmelo bullied his way here--forced us to give up a shtload because he couldnt be patient for 3 months and he forced the owner who was STUPID to accept it. Anyone comparing him to Wade or Duncan has to have his head examined--hes not those guys.

If Melo walked for NOTHING last year--what exactly is the difference today? Dolan orgasm-ed at everything Isiah said and he orgams at everything Carmelo does or says because thats his big "guy" over his 15 years here. You never here about what the San Antonio owner does other than come down to collect the trophy. This is his toy and thats that.

Phil Jackson made the call on Carmelo Anthony. There isn't really any hard evidence that Dolan forced Phil to resign Melo, only assumptions. Dolan's name gets thrown out because he is a convenient fall guy for any agenda needing to be pushed. Phil most likely made the call because it was necessary at the time. FA's this past offseason all either stayed or went to contending teams. This may be the trend going forward. Cap space without being a contender rignt now only seems good for eating unwanted contracts. And even if FAs did come we would have to offer then ridiculous amounts due to the expected cap rise. Unless we continue to go after Affalo and D.Will type of players to keep the cost down.

Fans are only crying at the moment because they want that Brooklyn Nets pick and believe Melo can land us that. The deal is still possible at the draft though since Love is still on the Cavs.

Really the teams future success depends the leaps KP continues to make going forward. If KP takes that next step next season then that improvement alone could net us a bunch of wins. We also still do have 20+mil in cap space coming up. With the possibility of more if Affalo, D.Will opt out and stretching Jose. Which makes it possible we get close to 40mil in cap space this summer. Melo also said he would re-evaluate this situation in the offseason.

Improved guard play, and development of KP really which is both possible with 20+mil in cap space. Calderson's or Affalo or D.Wills expiring(if they don't opt out) and possibly Grant as a trade piece if not kept. Could be logical steps to reaching the next level of improvement.

You're right about that--just because a deal didnt happen doesnt mean it cant--you're dead right. I think "in the moment" you want what is BEST for this team now but sometimes sports dont work to a timeline. Sometime a trade takes time--in this case maybe a higher cap more money and time to reflect for Melo might change his way. I dont think Clev can beat GS--they ARE better with Frye--we will see but Frye isnt Carmelo. So Clevland failure might be in the best interests of the KNicks and keeping melo HEALTHY is.

Nalod wrote:If melo left, were we at now and with whom?
Do we actually draft KP or trade the pick for other assets to fill a thin roster?
Do we have our no. 1 pick or does Toronto have it? If Melo's knee is just a post surgical expected symptom and plays thru it might his value still be ok this summer and he might be more inclined to accept a trade in the off season?
Would we get a better return of a trade?

Easy to blast and blame but its not like there is clarity if he left and his contract was off the books. Tanking this year would have made no sense. Last year we really could not have done much worse. As it stands KP at 4 might be better than anyone else.

Easy to stand up and say whats wrong but many of you lamenting and laying blame have not come up with a bonafide scenario that is better because hypotheticals don't carry any validity. The only one that caries any cred this week is Knicks1969 for his relentless slamming of Fish, and I'd say he really does not have the whole story either. When we hit .500 he was ok with him but the more we lost the more he called for his head. Guess what, a team that loses 10 of 11 is pretty telling. A broken clock is right twice a day.

I'd rather have Melo who can be traded than no Melo.

Possibly building around Towns, and with 124 mil more cap room

crzymdups wrote:Not sure if this was posted in this thread - but Isola with some insight into how the Melo NTC went down. Interesting article overall on the state of the Knicks. Isola is salty, but hard to argue he's wrong.

You kinda wonder if Jackson regrets publicly painting Anthony into a corner two summers ago by first saying Melo should take a discount and letting his star player know he wouldn’t be broken up in the least if Anthony signed elsewhere. Anthony’s camp was not happy about being called out like that.

Yet, when the moment of truth arrived, Jackson flew out to Los Angeles and offered Anthony a max deal. Melo’s response was to give a $6 million discount on two conditions: a no-trade clause and a trade kicker. Carmelo played that one beautifully.

http://m.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/isola-knicks-carmelo-remain-losing-path-article-1.2536998

He goes on to mention some summer trade options - something the saner parties here have suggested will be the best and most appropriate time to move Melo.

And now Anthony controls his future, which quite frankly is not very promising in New York. The best thing to happen to the Knicks on Thursday was the Celtics keeping all their assets, Kevin Love remaining in Cleveland and Blake Griffin staying stuck in L.A. That gives the Knicks several solid options this summer. A best-case scenario is for those three teams — Celtics, Cavs and Clippers — to all fall in the first or second round, which would lead to major changes. Cleveland should reach the NBA Finals but if it suffers another loss in June and should Love struggle, that’s also good for the Knicks.

lol assuming this is true clearly the correct move was to give him the stupid million instead. Yea that extra million he saved us really helped us