newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

anrst wrote:Melo wants to stay bc he wants his kid to stay in NY schools and wants the knicks fanbase not to hate him?

nah. he's gonna waive that clause. count on it.

there are consequences to that decision that he has to weigh, mostly about his legacy as a knick and his reputation as a straight shooter. and dismissing such a decision as "just business" will cement him forever as an underachieving, greedy and selfish, hypocrite. sure he'll cry all the way to the bank and i am sure that will please some of his fans no end, but then if it does please those fans, what does it say about THEIR character?

IMO if he waived his no trade clause and the Knicks got picks back. The NY fan base wouldn't hate him at all. The fact that he showed the willingness to buy in took all the heat off of him. Not like he got traded due to bad blood with the team or org. Just would be a move that made sense for both sides. He would be leaving the Knicks with KP cap space and multiple draft picks.

i do see your point here, absolutely. if that's what happens i'd be okay with it, more than okay with it. but it does not erase the fact that he demanded max money and turned down a better opportunity to win sooner, and used his kids' remaining in school in nyc and keeping tabs on his business interests ("digital athlete") as the reasons for staying. i have been thrilled with the way he has played this season, but he never should have asked for so much money with that much mileage on his body and the trending injury history.

i'd rather not see his career as a knick end with basically 35 great games this season. i'd rather see him acknowledge what is happening to his body within the context of where the knicks are going the next 2.5 seasons. he has the opportunity to play a ivotal role in their success, provided his minutes are limited to 24-27 minutes a game. heck, if rambis figures stuff out, melo can still be a starter even if technically he is playing bench-like minutes.

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

anrst wrote:Melo wants to stay bc he wants his kid to stay in NY schools and wants the knicks fanbase not to hate him?

nah. he's gonna waive that clause. count on it.

there are consequences to that decision that he has to weigh, mostly about his legacy as a knick and his reputation as a straight shooter. and dismissing such a decision as "just business" will cement him forever as an underachieving, greedy and selfish, hypocrite. sure he'll cry all the way to the bank and i am sure that will please some of his fans no end, but then if it does please those fans, what does it say about THEIR character?

IMO if he waived his no trade clause and the Knicks got picks back. The NY fan base wouldn't hate him at all. The fact that he showed the willingness to buy in took all the heat off of him. Not like he got traded due to bad blood with the team or org. Just would be a move that made sense for both sides. He would be leaving the Knicks with KP cap space and multiple draft picks.

i do see your point here, absolutely. if that's what happens i'd be okay with it, more than okay with it. but it does not erase the fact that he demanded max money and turned down a better opportunity to win sooner, and used his kids' remaining in school in nyc and keeping tabs on his business interests ("digital athlete") as the reasons for staying. i have been thrilled with the way he has played this season, but he never should have asked for so much money with that much mileage on his body and the trending injury history.

i'd rather not see his career as a knick end with basically 35 great games this season. i'd rather see him acknowledge what is happening to his body within the context of where the knicks are going the next 2.5 seasons. he has the opportunity to play a ivotal role in their success, provided his minutes are limited to 24-27 minutes a game. heck, if rambis figures stuff out, melo can still be a starter even if technically he is playing bench-like minutes.

pretty much a majority of players in the league, at a similar point in their career, would have made similar choices, so you aren't really high-lighting anything new and singular to Melo.

When looking for a new contract, all players try to maximize their contract given the landscape they find themselves in. Full Stop, nothing new.

dk7th wrote:

martin wrote:

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

anrst wrote:Melo wants to stay bc he wants his kid to stay in NY schools and wants the knicks fanbase not to hate him?

nah. he's gonna waive that clause. count on it.

there are consequences to that decision that he has to weigh, mostly about his legacy as a knick and his reputation as a straight shooter. and dismissing such a decision as "just business" will cement him forever as an underachieving, greedy and selfish, hypocrite. sure he'll cry all the way to the bank and i am sure that will please some of his fans no end, but then if it does please those fans, what does it say about THEIR character?

IMO if he waived his no trade clause and the Knicks got picks back. The NY fan base wouldn't hate him at all. The fact that he showed the willingness to buy in took all the heat off of him. Not like he got traded due to bad blood with the team or org. Just would be a move that made sense for both sides. He would be leaving the Knicks with KP cap space and multiple draft picks.

i do see your point here, absolutely. if that's what happens i'd be okay with it, more than okay with it. but it does not erase the fact that he demanded max money and turned down a better opportunity to win sooner, and used his kids' remaining in school in nyc and keeping tabs on his business interests ("digital athlete") as the reasons for staying. i have been thrilled with the way he has played this season, but he never should have asked for so much money with that much mileage on his body and the trending injury history.

i'd rather not see his career as a knick end with basically 35 great games this season. i'd rather see him acknowledge what is happening to his body within the context of where the knicks are going the next 2.5 seasons. he has the opportunity to play a ivotal role in their success, provided his minutes are limited to 24-27 minutes a game. heck, if rambis figures stuff out, melo can still be a starter even if technically he is playing bench-like minutes.

pretty much a majority of players in the league, at a similar point in their career, would have made similar choices, so you aren't really high-lighting anything new and singular to Melo.

When looking for a new contract, all players try to maximize their contract given the landscape they find themselves in. Full Stop, nothing new.

a majority, yes. but for a player of his putative calibre and with his history-- meaning the majority of his seasons of playoff futility or not at all-- you'd think he'd buck the trend and take less to play elsewhere to afford himself a better chance to win, or take less as a knick to help his own cause as a knick.

again, i have been thrilled with the way he has played this season (finally!), but at the end of the day-- and from a pure business perspective-- is there really much difference between good melo breaking down around 40 games in, or a healthy bad melo?

All I know is Melo wants to be in NY and wants to win here. Same as Thibs from what I've heard.

And I don't think Melo's currently injury is a trend (yet). Stupid ref followed by poor decision to play top heavy minutes in back-to-back to get wins.

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

anrst wrote:Melo wants to stay bc he wants his kid to stay in NY schools and wants the knicks fanbase not to hate him?

nah. he's gonna waive that clause. count on it.

there are consequences to that decision that he has to weigh, mostly about his legacy as a knick and his reputation as a straight shooter. and dismissing such a decision as "just business" will cement him forever as an underachieving, greedy and selfish, hypocrite. sure he'll cry all the way to the bank and i am sure that will please some of his fans no end, but then if it does please those fans, what does it say about THEIR character?

IMO if he waived his no trade clause and the Knicks got picks back. The NY fan base wouldn't hate him at all. The fact that he showed the willingness to buy in took all the heat off of him. Not like he got traded due to bad blood with the team or org. Just would be a move that made sense for both sides. He would be leaving the Knicks with KP cap space and multiple draft picks.

i do see your point here, absolutely. if that's what happens i'd be okay with it, more than okay with it. but it does not erase the fact that he demanded max money and turned down a better opportunity to win sooner, and used his kids' remaining in school in nyc and keeping tabs on his business interests ("digital athlete") as the reasons for staying. i have been thrilled with the way he has played this season, but he never should have asked for so much money with that much mileage on his body and the trending injury history.

i'd rather not see his career as a knick end with basically 35 great games this season. i'd rather see him acknowledge what is happening to his body within the context of where the knicks are going the next 2.5 seasons. he has the opportunity to play a ivotal role in their success, provided his minutes are limited to 24-27 minutes a game. heck, if rambis figures stuff out, melo can still be a starter even if technically he is playing bench-like minutes.

His contract hasn't had any effect on the Knicks currently. It may down the road but currently no. It didn't stop us from landing any free agents due to not having the budget. Didn't stop us from landing a franchise talent like KP. So if he were to get traded in which we landed a bunch of draft picks. The Knicks would have won out drastically over losing him for nothing.

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

anrst wrote:WTF DOES MELO WANT TO STAY FOR?

in the aftermath of his supermax contract signing he said the mist important thing was not moving his kids and keeping close tabs on his business interests/branding.

if he were to waive his no-trade clause, after having signed a max deal with a trade kicker, it would be a very bad look and will certainly destroy whatever legacy he might have had here in new york, even as a sixth man in the twilight seasons of his career.

the only logical way forward for him is to stay in new york but be limited to 24-27 minutes a game, with those minutes diminishing over time... except come playoff time, if it comes to that.

When are you predicting that his minutes go down? Right now the Knicks can't win unless he plays a ton of minutes. Also, if Rambis wants to keep his job he probably needs to play Melo 35 mins a night with the squad he has.

i expect those minutes to be limited right away after the all-star break. the knicks are out of the playoff hunt, and rambis is not under the gun to do anything more than get the knicks back to playing .500 ball going forward, .500 ball always having been their ceiling. "rambis keeping his job by winning" is an unrealistic and frankly silly expectation, unless by "winning" you mean playing .500 ball.

getting them back to .500 ball going forward will put them at 34-35 wins for the season, which is what i expected from this season-- and i was not the only one who predicted just about this number of wins. i believe there were two threads on win predictions, and here is one of them:

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=52623

some of the predictions were amusingly and hopelessly naive and unrealistic, if not a real hoot. you yourself predicted 44-47 wins. what was your reasoning at the time? you should give it now so you can afford yourself an opportunity to learn something.

again, the last thing rambis should be doing is playing melo over 30 minutes a game. it would be prudent to limit melo to 24-28 minutes a game, as rambis tries to figure out smarter and better rotations-- something he addressed very clearly.

Melo played over 38 minutes in his first game for Rambis. There isn't a big difference between 23-31 and 23-32 is there? The 32nd loss is what is going to change things?
In regards to my prediction, I always try to be optimistic.

sorry but one game does not a trend make. predictions based on optimism are not really predictions. predictions are based on understanding and research. so what was your understanding and research at that time?

Sometimes I throw a high number out there in reaction to the doom and gloom crew. I use the same approach with polls.

there was little or no doom and gloom crew on this forum. i am pretty sure most posters predicted somewhere between 30-40 wins. rather, it was the brainless trust at espn that came out with a flat out embarrassing prediction-- 25 wins-- that i have yet to see the reasoning behind. hilarious that nobody claims authorship either. here's the thread posted here based on espn:

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=52294

i don't know who on ultimateknicks you were reacting to.

SwishAndDish13 wrote:I am late to the party here but why would Boston do this trade? They get the worst end of this and put themselves in a situation where they can't really win their own conference. Makes no sense at all.

Them getting Kevin Love makes them worse? How?

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

anrst wrote:Melo wants to stay bc he wants his kid to stay in NY schools and wants the knicks fanbase not to hate him?

nah. he's gonna waive that clause. count on it.

there are consequences to that decision that he has to weigh, mostly about his legacy as a knick and his reputation as a straight shooter. and dismissing such a decision as "just business" will cement him forever as an underachieving, greedy and selfish, hypocrite. sure he'll cry all the way to the bank and i am sure that will please some of his fans no end, but then if it does please those fans, what does it say about THEIR character?

IMO if he waived his no trade clause and the Knicks got picks back. The NY fan base wouldn't hate him at all. The fact that he showed the willingness to buy in took all the heat off of him. Not like he got traded due to bad blood with the team or org. Just would be a move that made sense for both sides. He would be leaving the Knicks with KP cap space and multiple draft picks.

i do see your point here, absolutely. if that's what happens i'd be okay with it, more than okay with it. but it does not erase the fact that he demanded max money and turned down a better opportunity to win sooner, and used his kids' remaining in school in nyc and keeping tabs on his business interests ("digital athlete") as the reasons for staying. i have been thrilled with the way he has played this season, but he never should have asked for so much money with that much mileage on his body and the trending injury history.

i'd rather not see his career as a knick end with basically 35 great games this season. i'd rather see him acknowledge what is happening to his body within the context of where the knicks are going the next 2.5 seasons. he has the opportunity to play a ivotal role in their success, provided his minutes are limited to 24-27 minutes a game. heck, if rambis figures stuff out, melo can still be a starter even if technically he is playing bench-like minutes.

NardDogNation wrote:

SwishAndDish13 wrote:I am late to the party here but why would Boston do this trade? They get the worst end of this and put themselves in a situation where they can't really win their own conference. Makes no sense at all.

Them getting Kevin Love makes them worse? How?

Kevin Love has proven he is a stretch as a max player. They improve Cleveland in this deal and help them unload the Love contract. It makes it almost impossible for them to compete with Cleveland while they have Love under contract.

In addition, to make this trade fair they would probably need to move one of the Nets picks which will likely be a top pick. Holding out and opening for Simmons or another franchise changing player makes more sense for them.

For the Knicks, you can't do the deal without a Nets pick inot there. The Celtics picks would be late 1st round which has low success rates. They'don't be better dumping Melo for a mid first if that was the path the chose.

Basically this traemail only guarantees Cleveland help so what's the incentive for NY or Boston to do it?

SwishAndDish13 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

SwishAndDish13 wrote:I am late to the party here but why would Boston do this trade? They get the worst end of this and put themselves in a situation where they can't really win their own conference. Makes no sense at all.

Them getting Kevin Love makes them worse? How?

Kevin Love has proven he is a stretch as a max player. They improve Cleveland in this deal and help them unload the Love contract. It makes it almost impossible for them to compete with Cleveland while they have Love under contract.

In addition, to make this trade fair they would probably need to move one of the Nets picks which will likely be a top pick. Holding out and opening for Simmons or another franchise changing player makes more sense for them.

For the Knicks, you can't do the deal without a Nets pick inot there. The Celtics picks would be late 1st round which has low success rates. They'don't be better dumping Melo for a mid first if that was the path the chose.

Basically this traemail only guarantees Cleveland help so what's the incentive for NY or Boston to do it?

Really? The team at the top of the Conference, with the 4th best record in the league has problems competing because of Kevin Love? The same team that made the Eastern Conference Finals the year before? The same Kevin Love who was the backbone of a starting lineup that had the highest +/- differential in the league with the Wolves? That guy is "stretch as a max player"?

NardDogNation wrote:

SwishAndDish13 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

SwishAndDish13 wrote:I am late to the party here but why would Boston do this trade? They get the worst end of this and put themselves in a situation where they can't really win their own conference. Makes no sense at all.

Them getting Kevin Love makes them worse? How?

Kevin Love has proven he is a stretch as a max player. They improve Cleveland in this deal and help them unload the Love contract. It makes it almost impossible for them to compete with Cleveland while they have Love under contract.

In addition, to make this trade fair they would probably need to move one of the Nets picks which will likely be a top pick. Holding out and opening for Simmons or another franchise changing player makes more sense for them.

For the Knicks, you can't do the deal without a Nets pick inot there. The Celtics picks would be late 1st round which has low success rates. They'don't be better dumping Melo for a mid first if that was the path the chose.

Basically this trade only guarantees Cleveland help so what's the incentive for NY or Boston to do it?

Really? The team at the top of the Conference, with the 4th best record in the league has problems competing because of Kevin Love? The same team that made the Eastern Conference Finals the year before? The same Kevin Love who was the backbone of a starting lineup that had the highest +/- differential in the league with the Wolves? That guy is "stretch as a max player"?

it's just a case of a bad fit for him. i mean, when you're a forward or center on the cavaliers when do you actually see the ball when you have lebron, irving and smith out there? that's a TON of usage from those three so obviously kevin love is odd man out. same issue in la with griffin and paul. griffin is soooo much better without paul and vice versa. lebron should stop gm'ing like he's choosing sides in a pickup game.