GustavBahler wrote:nixluva wrote:GustavBahler wrote:nixluva wrote:GustavBahler wrote:nixluva wrote:GustavBahler wrote:nixluva wrote:GustavBahler wrote:nixluva wrote:Cartman718 wrote:nixluva wrote:Cartman718 wrote:nixluva wrote:Cartman718 wrote:fisher is a terrible coach at Xs n Os. have you guys noticed how EVERY SINGLE OFFENSIVE PLAY starts off with a pass from the wing to the center perimeter to the other wing followed by a feed to mid-range wing if possible?TOO FREAKIN PREDICTABLE!!!
What do you really know about the X's and O's of this offense? The passes seem meaningless but that's the nature of the Triangle. It's a multiple pass offense, with off ball motion and it's up to the players to be more creative within the flow of the offense. It doesn't have to be so predictable but if you don't have guards that can shake it up then it will look pretty predictable. As for Fish and his X's and O's I think you guys are fooling yourselves if you really think he doesn't know basketball at a high level. IMO most of the guys who complain don't even know what they're looking at when it comes to the Triangle. Most PnR based offenses aren't exactly complicated either. This team needs more aggressiveness at guard in order to make it less predictable. We don't get enough early offense and end up running way too much of the Half Court offense and being forced into taking poor shots. If the wings and guards aren't playing aggressively then you end up with the post ups and midrange stuff. This is not the fault of the offense.
If you have individual ability to create a shot then you can and should use it if there's nothing else or the opening is there. We don't have a lot of players with that kind of ability so this offense actually helps them to get shots with having to do as much. If you are moving and moving the ball you can get some great looks. Still ALL of the scoring opportunities can't come against the set defense. Pushing the ball and looking for easy scoring is still needed.
lets put it this way... i dont have to know everything about the offense to see how it develops with the knicks. its up to the coach to run unpredictable plays or demand players from phil that will help him run them.
now...what do you know about Xs n Os of this offense and how does that in any way matter to fisher's predictable "coaching"?
I'm not an expert on the Triangle but I know a lot more than most of the guys who complain about it. Just listening to the comments it's clear that this offense is still not understood by most. No matter how many times I explain the facts about the offense guys still repeat the same wrong assumptions about it. It seems people are ready to assume the worst because it's not a fast paced PnR spread offense. I have a feeling that if it was and we were still losing a few games then people would still be trashing the offense or Fish or whoever we had as coach.
This team has some talent but not overwhelming talent. There are some important areas of weakness and they also have some young players that are still developing. This puts even more pressure on the need to execute perfectly. If you really intend to teach them the finer points of the game then you have to stick with it. I do think they are learning even if they have their ups and downs. This is year one of this process of developing this team and it was never realistic to expect a perfectly smooth process. It's gonna be very interesting to see how the rest of the season plays out.
Keep tooting your horn...you and dk7th are on the same boat. So instead of tweaking the triangle and being less predictable with the personnel he has...and playing to their strengths.....he is forcing the triangle down their throats?
Jerian Grant case in point...first 2 shots against the Hawks...3 point shots...thinks...uhh not my strength...bump the triangle let me drive...even in a half court set...and gets results.
Do you think Fisher should reprimand him for that or reward him?
And what do you think he really did...answer the question...
The reason why we won yesterday is because we played the triangle only 50% of the time....remaining time PNR, drives to baskets and feeding the hot hand.
You are mistaken if you think they only played the Triangle Offense 50% of the time. 1st of all it's s SYSTEM and when they are in transition they are moving according to the way they were taught in this system. It's about filling lanes and after that certain spots on the floor. To you it looks like they aren't running the offense because you don't really know all of the offense!!! If you really did know the offense you would know that all of the things they did are actually In the offense.
Nix, might help clear things up with folks who keep debating you about the Triangle is to tell them what part of the offense you're seeing on the floor this season isn't part of the Triangle offense.
This assumes that they are doing something that isn't part of the SYSTEM. The Triple Post or Triangle Offense is pretty old and has been developed over many decades. At this stage it's a fully formed and fleshed out system. It's been designed to try and have an answer for any known defense. It forces the defense into undesirable positions if executed properly. The offense is about Filling spots and knowing the rules of what to do when X or Y happens.The Side Triangle is only one aspect of the overall System. It's not the entire offense. Calling it the Triangle is misleading. The thing is it's likely the 1st thing they will try to teach and it will take time to learn and perfect that before being able to move on to more and more of the entire offense. Let's remember this team is NEW to all of this. It's such a varied offense that you can't master all of it as a group in a short period of time. This is why I say that the longer they stay in this system the better they will get and the more variety they will be able to bring out.
More accurately, you're saying that everything we've seen this season is part of the Triangle offense, as in the SYSTEM. I believe this debate keeps coming up because you are using the Triangle to describe not only the Triangle as a set, but other aspects, like uptempo basketball.
Sure, the Triangle offense doesn't discourage fast breaks, or run n gun offense, but it isnt what you would describe as its center. You can say its all part of the Triangle, but when folks say they want to see the team run more, they arent debating the Triangle offense and all its facets, just its core philosophy.
To be more specific. Pushing the ball is part of the Triangle. There are rules on lanes to run, spots to fill and automatic actions in the Triangle Transition game. The rules are set so that they can flow into the set offense if there is no early scoring opportunity. This doesn't always work out because it depends on who leads the break and who's back on defense etc. No offense is adhered to 100% of the time, but I can tell you that the Knicks are for the majority of their games looking to run things that are in the system and not just the Side Triangle. The Side Triangle is not the entire offense. There are other sets. MOST people including TV announcers don't know all of the other stuff in the Triple Post Offense.
You just did again. I just pointed out how you are blurring the distinction between uptempo, run and gun bball and half court basketball which is where the Triangle aka Triple Post offense is employed. You lumped half court basketball and full court basketball together.
Getting into a half court set quickly, isnt the same thing as five guys running down the court at the same time and throwing it down. Thats what some posters are saying they would like to see more, not that they want to see the team get into the Triangle set faster.
I've been VERY clear!!! There is a very specific flow to the offense. You are supposed to push the ball in the Triangle Offense and look to score quickly, but also run in such a way that you are balanced and ready to flow into a drag screen, fill spots for a corner 3 or get a back cut and if that isn't there you can flow right into the half court set. Its all prescribed in the offense. There is no contradiction. The Triangle offense is a Full Court Offense and not just a Half Court Offense!!!
You do realize that you are arguing that any type of offense run in professional basketball in some way or another is part of the Triangle? Its a very easy way to shut down a debate when you know someone is specifically talking about getting away from 3 players forming a triangle in a half court set.
Im guessing you will say its only part of the Triangle, but thats the only part most posters are referring to. So when they say they want to get away from the Triangle, it might make things easier if you argue the merits of that particular, but central part of the offense.
1st of all the Triangle being the current popular name of the offense is misleading. It's original name is actually The Triple Post offense and that would avoid the notion that it's all about the Side Triangle. Still there is more to the offense than what happens when and if they form a side Triangle. That side Triangle is the most used and most known part of the offense but it's not the entire offense. When they run other stuff most don't recognize the sets and assume that it's not part of the system. There are 12 spots that can be filled in the Triple Post Offense. 4 baseline spots being both Corners or either side of the paint. 5 FT Line Extended spots depending on the position of the player. 3 spots above the key which are for ball reversal etc.
So they could run a "Wing Solo" or "2 Man side action with 3 cleared out" or a "Double Screen" or "Triple Screen" or "Dribble Weave with Back Cut" or "Blind Pig" or "Hand Back Lob" or "3 out 2 in 4 Corners Concept" or a "4 out" none of which are about the Side Triangle post feed set.
Reread the bolded part above, and tell me you didnt respond exactly like I said you would. You also corrected me on my calling it the Triangle, reread the bolded part above the last one. Its why you keep having the same argument with posters. You dont respond to what posters are actually saying, but instead are resorting to semantics to get your point across.
I REALLY COULDN'T BE ANY CLEARER! I've broken things down and used the original name in order to separate the Side Triangle from the entire offensive system to avoid confusion.
You are mistaken if you think I haven't been making it clear in my posts that the Triangle is an entire system and not just the Side Triangle that they recognize. I'm not playing a game of semantics. I've been trying to educate and make clear what the offense actually is. When I do you accuse me of suggesting all other offenses are part of the Triangle. It's not that simplistic. Even if they stand in a similar alignment the RULES of the system are different and a key aspect of how it all works.
I've responded with THE MOST detailed and expansive explanations of the system of anyone on this forum. I'm not confused and I do my best to clearly express my points because I'm fully aware that people focus on the use of the Side Triangle. When others suggest we go away from the Triangle, I am very careful to always point out that there is no need to move on since there have always been other options in the offense. The Knicks have NEVER solely run just the Side Triangle.
I've been clear from day one that there is more to this SYSTEM than the side triangle and that most of those who don't like the offense generally don't even know the offense. I've been very clear that most only recognize the side triangle and aren't able to identify the other alignments in the SYSTEM.
Even when they set up in the Side Triangle they don't have to only feed the post on the strong side Triangle. There are many other options available to the players and a guard can flow into something else or reverse the ball. Technically they have some sets where you have an overload on one side but never form a Triangle. The idea is to establish a pattern so the defense anticipates but your really going to do something else.
1/4/2016 8:30 PM