fishmike wrote:

TPercy wrote:Fish do you think it was a smart move to overpay for two NBA journeyman right before summer where we had a wide variety of players who could have shined and brought the same level of intensity. I said it many times that there was a possibility either thanasis, ndour, or labeyrie would play really well and show a lot of potential. Funny thing is that all three of those players are known hardworking players and give it there all for the sake of th r team and play sf or pf, much like amundson and thomas. fishmike, don't get me wrong, I think there is value for for players like those so that they can have a positive influence on our culture here, but it never really made sense getting the two of them back here at the same time.

I actually like the Lou/Lance signings. I think you need balance. The best teams always do.

Look at the prospects on the roster next year:
Galloway, KP, Grant, Early, Ledo (partial), Thanasis (promise?)

Then you have Derrick Williams and Quinn who are 24 and 25 and signed for upside, but are still young, cheap players the Knicks are hoping to build on or build up.

So your looking at 8 guys, who are either pure prospects or unproven young pros with talent whom we are looking to develop. 8 guys is a lot of roster to dedicate to players that (loosely) can be considered prospects.

Vets:
Melo, Lopez, Afflalo, Calderon

And of those vets only two have played in this system, and Melo and Jose were both hurt for more than half the year.

So I 100% endorse those signings and believe they make sense. Those guys wont get many minutes I suspect but they know the system, they defend, the know where to be on the floor and they have shown at times they can play above their talent level, and most of all the coaching staff and FO trust them and want these type of guys around.

assuming we Thanasis and Ledo both make the roster we still have a spot for a guy who slips through the cracks.

You need balance. Thats a fact. You and some may disagree and if thats the case fine. Ive played on a lot of sports teams, and Ive played on teams where 2/3 of the roster are new guys who are learning a system etc and its too many. The lack of stability and knowledge of the system hurts everyone. These young guys and these coaches need a few lunch pale guys THAT KNOW THE SYSTEM. Its not about the role... these guys are most likely short term or will be end of the bench Luke Walton teacher pet types. You dont think those guys are important? Every good team and every established system has them.

guys screaming about some end of the bench guy being a better choice than crappy old Lance and Lou just dont get it. Its not nintendo. These are men with jobs to do. Lou and Lance already know their jobs. They also be effective players next to more talented guys. A guy like Lou is going to look great next to Melo and KP. Its when you ask him to give you 15ppg and 10rebs in 35 minutes a night when he's going to get exposed. Thats not fair or what he was signed for.

very well said, fish - can't add a whole lot more to it. the posters who don't see that guys like lou and lance bring valuable experience and leadership to this team are lost. and like you said in an earlier post, these guys already know their roles and they know their jobs and they've shown last year and previous years that they are quite good at performing their roles. seems like most people think every young prospect is going to bloom into an all-star, sadly that hardly ever happens. lou and lance are very important to this team, a guy like n'dour would sit on the bench and hope for blowouts and not add much else to the team in practice or in the locker room.

BRIGGS wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Finestrg wrote:What did Cuban give him? Anyone know??

I can't find anything. It sounds like training camp invites with partial guarantees but the Mavs guaranteed more money. Not sure though. It also sounds like he had a better shot of making the 15 man roster in Dallas.

I can't find much either. This has a little insight:

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/07/23/knicks-summer-league-standout-maurice-ndour-headed-to-mavericks-training-camp/

I get the same feeling -- we're talking a TC invite offer with more guaranteed money. Doesn't even sound like it was a automatic roster spot type of deal...Also sounds to me like we lowballed yet another player, the first being Shved. So frustrating. I mean WTF are they doing????!!!!??? Offer A TOP TC offer!! Why nickel and dime the guy??? How do you let Cuban come in a steal this player away with a better TC offer? WTF is that ****?? It's laughable.

Shved got more money than the Knicks could possibly have offered him. And it seemed like he wanted to go back to Europe, Russia specifically.

How can you say that? You don't see what happened here dude? Come on--read between the lines -- If we would've said to this guy, "Alexey, JOB WELL DONE, brah! We want you back. No question about it--as soon as we sign the bulk of our outside FAs, we'll be at the cap and can use the room exception of 2.8mm--we want to use it on you"! If we had approached him like that, he'd still be here. I'd bet any amount of money on it. I bet we never approached him like that--I don't think we professed any excitement over bringing him back at all and lowballed him with a vet minimum offer and never budged off it. I get the feeling that's how Phil conducts business -- meanwhile, a guy like Cuban comes across as much more enthusiastic and adamant about getting what he wants. And guess what--that's how ya gotta be!!! I mean look at the Greg Monroe ****, how we didn't offer him a max contract (which I firmly believe btw). That dude was only linked to us for months. Midnight rolls around on the 1st day of FA and we don't offer him a max offer? WTF was that about?? This dude could've been a 20/10 rock inside for us for years to come.. I don't think we made the necessary, proper offer...Now reports are surfacing that we were looking to force the C spot on LaMarcus Aldridge and that we cancelled the meeting? Can you believe that ****?? Worked out Elliot Williams, a guard with versatility and plenty of talent to get back in the NBA, we have a dire need for backcourt depth and haven't made an offer as of yet (I think we would've heard if we did, even if one was rejected). My bet is we failed to make the man an offer or lowballed yet another guy...I firmly believe we had a chance to sign JaMychal Green last year and ****ed that up too. Now Ndour -- I mean we lost this guy over a better ****ing TC offer? WOW...Anyone else see a pattern here??

How do you know that they didn't say exactly that to Shved?

Don't you know how he knows?? He reads between the lines. Lol

Dude honestly, slip on a ****ing banana peel and break your ****ing neck already. I've seen my share of *******s on this forum but you my friend are the biggest dickhead so far. Consider yourself on ignore mode from here on in as soon as I can manage how to use that feature.

EDIT: Done. That was easy. A shame it had to come to something like that. Been posting on here for a long time--never even thought about using that feature on anyone. Never necessary--I actually care what others have to say around here. But man, I HAVE NEVER seen a more pompous ******* who's gone out of his way to antagonize and deliberately cause trouble on purpose like this jerkoff. Come on--3, 4, 5 posts in a row??? LOL...Supposed to be about basketball--some losers decide to get personal and take jabs but never on the level of this mo-mo. And I hide behind my keyboard?? Man, is that a hoot too. Wow.

You just haven't had anyone be honest and call you out for the dumb crap you spit out of your mouth and i'm the guy that will do it. If you dont saY dumb stuff and don't try acting like you know more than you do then I would have no reason to call you out or anyone else that does the same crap. If you post stuff that are logical and not dumb i'll be the first to agree or compliment what you say but when you don't then I won't. It's too bad you can't handle someone calling you out but when you grow up you'll learn how to handle it......hopefully. bye bye felicia.

C(newyork) give it a rest man. Breaking peoples cahones tisk tisk no need for it--you try it all the time on me but I actually know who you are and it means nothing believe me. Why are you wasting your time here anyway?

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/IanBegley/status/624339512722911234

earthmansurfer wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/IanBegley/status/624339512722911234

And I'm going to guess the vet minimum? 500k + 250k. That is what stopped us from getting him?
And what did we just give out to Thomas and Amundson?
Amazing

fishmike wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/IanBegley/status/624339512722911234

And I'm going to guess the vet minimum? 500k + 250k. That is what stopped us from getting him?
And what did we just give out to Thomas and Amundson?
Amazing

only your inability to grasp the reasoning behind it. Disagree? Fine. Nothing amazing about it.

Sounds like this is personal to you, especially when you don't even list the reason.
And on top of that, throw over half of both boards into your comment as most are upset.

foosballnick wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Nalod wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Knicks have busted a lot of choices whether trades or draft picks since Phil has been here. How long before he gives up on Galloway Derrick Williams Carmelo et . Phil had some luck that he listened to advi e on Porzingis and that we don't have Trey lyles and ty Lawson. He's good at bashing others latest bashing the entire Duke organizatione. Hope we grab the GS C that they had no space 4 Carlos boozer and a pg but who the f knows.

Upset that phil giving up already on these guys. You've gone grumpy to the dark side.

Grumpy--Im just stating fact. There is a whole article just out recently where Phil bashes the entire Duke(college) organization(why is the Knicks president bashing duke?). Hes excellent at bashing. Was it really that classy to bash Shump JR(and hes in free agency) Tim Hardaway after their gone? We made trades or moves to pick up guys like Schyed Larkin Early Ledo Ndour Thansis used 2 of our own draft picks on a guy who --well who knows if he ll ever come here when there were kids we couldve used from the G position available? Lets see how long guys like Lopez or Williams stay flavor of the day--hes quick to turn color. AND the only guy he really shouldve turned on was Calderon and hes our center piece guard. Good luck with our defense there Phil.

I think we should pick up Boozer(vet who can score in low post) the GA C he just needs opportunity and a young PG who has some speed in his game---I think its reasonable logic? Lets just stick to basics Phil.

One of my pet peeves on Internet Boards is when posters claim they are stating "facts" when they are actually stating "opinions". Sorry, but it drives me crazy. Also wanted to say that regarding the Duke comments....he did not bash the entire Duke organization - he just questioned the Duke program in terms of how their players perform to expectation or not in the NBA - which is a very fair point to make.....

Jackson Comments -

At best, the Knicks would get the first pick and tab center Jahlil Okafor, although Jackson thinks he might not be aggressive enough. “Also, if you look at the guys who came to the NBA from Duke, aside from Grant Hill, which ones lived up to expectations?”

Point taken, Briggs. Phil Jackson has wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much to say to the media, on twitter esp., etc.. Way too much. I haven't cared for any of his extracurricular comments since he's been here. and ya know what--I missed his Duke comments--not even sure what he said but I gather it's par for the course with how he's been...It comes off amateurish...STFU and build this team into a winner. Don't worry about putting energy into anything else.

Finestrg wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Nalod wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Knicks have busted a lot of choices whether trades or draft picks since Phil has been here. How long before he gives up on Galloway Derrick Williams Carmelo et . Phil had some luck that he listened to advi e on Porzingis and that we don't have Trey lyles and ty Lawson. He's good at bashing others latest bashing the entire Duke organizatione. Hope we grab the GS C that they had no space 4 Carlos boozer and a pg but who the f knows.

Upset that phil giving up already on these guys. You've gone grumpy to the dark side.

Grumpy--Im just stating fact. There is a whole article just out recently where Phil bashes the entire Duke(college) organization(why is the Knicks president bashing duke?). Hes excellent at bashing. Was it really that classy to bash Shump JR(and hes in free agency) Tim Hardaway after their gone? We made trades or moves to pick up guys like Schyed Larkin Early Ledo Ndour Thansis used 2 of our own draft picks on a guy who --well who knows if he ll ever come here when there were kids we couldve used from the G position available? Lets see how long guys like Lopez or Williams stay flavor of the day--hes quick to turn color. AND the only guy he really shouldve turned on was Calderon and hes our center piece guard. Good luck with our defense there Phil.

I think we should pick up Boozer(vet who can score in low post) the GA C he just needs opportunity and a young PG who has some speed in his game---I think its reasonable logic? Lets just stick to basics Phil.

One of my pet peeves on Internet Boards is when posters claim they are stating "facts" when they are actually stating "opinions". Sorry, but it drives me crazy. Also wanted to say that regarding the Duke comments....he did not bash the entire Duke organization - he just questioned the Duke program in terms of how their players perform to expectation or not in the NBA - which is a very fair point to make.....

Jackson Comments -

At best, the Knicks would get the first pick and tab center Jahlil Okafor, although Jackson thinks he might not be aggressive enough. “Also, if you look at the guys who came to the NBA from Duke, aside from Grant Hill, which ones lived up to expectations?”

Point taken, Briggs. Phil Jackson has wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much to say to the media, on twitter esp., etc.. Way too much. I haven't cared for any of his extracurricular comments since he's been here. and ya know what--I missed his Duke comments--not even sure what he said but I gather it's par for the course with how he's been...It comes off amateurish...STFU and build this team into a winner. Don't worry about putting energy into anything else.

You have an awful lot to say on an internet message board. How come you aren't listening to your own advice and STFU and putting all or your energy into your job, real life etc. Don't you find it hypocritical to criticize someone else for both their performance, how stupid they are, their motives and how they waste time using social media when in fact you are doing the same thing yourself?

earthmansurfer wrote:

fishmike wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/IanBegley/status/624339512722911234

And I'm going to guess the vet minimum? 500k + 250k. That is what stopped us from getting him?
And what did we just give out to Thomas and Amundson?
Amazing

only your inability to grasp the reasoning behind it. Disagree? Fine. Nothing amazing about it.

Sounds like this is personal to you, especially when you don't even list the reason.
And on top of that, throw over half of both boards into your comment as most are upset.

I have given reasons. You seem to think that this is a 100% failure on the Knicks and Phil and that we got outbid.

I have said first and foremost that Dalls is simply a better situation for him. Half the board? More like the same 4 guys posting it over and over again.

Lets actually put some thought into this:
Go look at NY vs. Dal rosters.

1) What position in the NBA will NDour play?
2) Which roster offers greater probability for playing time?

You are using words like amazing and debacle. Not me. You are assuming the Knicks were outbid, which may be true and is also likely about 5% of the reason he went to Dallas. They are short on bigs. He's going to get more playing time. See?

Two of the FAs Knicks signed play his position. The Knicks franchise draft pick plays his position. Melo also gets minutes at his position. The Mavs? They have a 37 year old Dirk. After that? Its guys like Dwight Powell, Greg Smith and Charlie Vilanueva.

So you tell me... did you look at this? Did you consider this had very little to do with being outbid and everything to do with a young player trying to establish a career in the league going to the situation where he had the most growth opportunity?

Have you and all the others disgusted and amazed by the new heights of ineptitude reached by Phil considered this?

Or is it as simple and narrowminded as NDour is better than Lance Thomas so Phil and the Knicks are retards and thats a debacle... because that is all I hear from you and the other 4 guys kicking and screaming about this

MaTT4281 wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Nalod wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Knicks have busted a lot of choices whether trades or draft picks since Phil has been here. How long before he gives up on Galloway Derrick Williams Carmelo et . Phil had some luck that he listened to advi e on Porzingis and that we don't have Trey lyles and ty Lawson. He's good at bashing others latest bashing the entire Duke organizatione. Hope we grab the GS C that they had no space 4 Carlos boozer and a pg but who the f knows.

Upset that phil giving up already on these guys. You've gone grumpy to the dark side.

Grumpy--Im just stating fact. There is a whole article just out recently where Phil bashes the entire Duke(college) organization(why is the Knicks president bashing duke?). Hes excellent at bashing. Was it really that classy to bash Shump JR(and hes in free agency) Tim Hardaway after their gone? We made trades or moves to pick up guys like Schyed Larkin Early Ledo Ndour Thansis used 2 of our own draft picks on a guy who --well who knows if he ll ever come here when there were kids we couldve used from the G position available? Lets see how long guys like Lopez or Williams stay flavor of the day--hes quick to turn color. AND the only guy he really shouldve turned on was Calderon and hes our center piece guard. Good luck with our defense there Phil.

I think we should pick up Boozer(vet who can score in low post) the GA C he just needs opportunity and a young PG who has some speed in his game---I think its reasonable logic? Lets just stick to basics Phil.

One of my pet peeves on Internet Boards is when posters claim they are stating "facts" when they are actually stating "opinions". Sorry, but it drives me crazy. Also wanted to say that regarding the Duke comments....he did not bash the entire Duke organization - he just questioned the Duke program in terms of how their players perform to expectation or not in the NBA - which is a very fair point to make.....

Jackson Comments -

At best, the Knicks would get the first pick and tab center Jahlil Okafor, although Jackson thinks he might not be aggressive enough. “Also, if you look at the guys who came to the NBA from Duke, aside from Grant Hill, which ones lived up to expectations?”

Point taken, Briggs. Phil Jackson has wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much to say to the media, on twitter esp., etc.. Way too much. I haven't cared for any of his extracurricular comments since he's been here. and ya know what--I missed his Duke comments--not even sure what he said but I gather it's par for the course with how he's been...It comes off amateurish...STFU and build this team into a winner. Don't worry about putting energy into anything else.

Not sure what he said? You just quoted it!

Meant to quote Briggs' post. Sorry for the mistake. Won't happen again..

fishmike wrote:

TPercy wrote:

fishmike wrote:

TPercy wrote:Fish do you think it was a smart move to overpay for two NBA journeyman right before summer where we had a wide variety of players who could have shined and brought the same level of intensity. I said it many times that there was a possibility either thanasis, ndour, or labeyrie would play really well and show a lot of potential. Funny thing is that all three of those players are known hardworking players and give it there all for the sake of th r team and play sf or pf, much like amundson and thomas. fishmike, don't get me wrong, I think there is value for for players like those so that they can have a positive influence on our culture here, but it never really made sense getting the two of them back here at the same time.

I actually like the Lou/Lance signings. I think you need balance. The best teams always do.

Look at the prospects on the roster next year:
Galloway, KP, Grant, Early, Ledo (partial), Thanasis (promise?)

Then you have Derrick Williams and Quinn who are 24 and 25 and signed for upside, but are still young, cheap players the Knicks are hoping to build on or build up.

So your looking at 8 guys, who are either pure prospects or unproven young pros with talent whom we are looking to develop. 8 guys is a lot of roster to dedicate to players that (loosely) can be considered prospects.

Vets:
Melo, Lopez, Afflalo, Calderon

And of those vets only two have played in this system, and Melo and Jose were both hurt for more than half the year.

So I 100% endorse those signings and believe they make sense. Those guys wont get many minutes I suspect but they know the system, they defend, the know where to be on the floor and they have shown at times they can play above their talent level, and most of all the coaching staff and FO trust them and want these type of guys around.

assuming we Thanasis and Ledo both make the roster we still have a spot for a guy who slips through the cracks.

You need balance. Thats a fact. You and some may disagree and if thats the case fine. Ive played on a lot of sports teams, and Ive played on teams where 2/3 of the roster are new guys who are learning a system etc and its too many. The lack of stability and knowledge of the system hurts everyone. These young guys and these coaches need a few lunch pale guys THAT KNOW THE SYSTEM. Its not about the role... these guys are most likely short term or will be end of the bench Luke Walton teacher pet types. You dont think those guys are important? Every good team and every established system has them.

guys screaming about some end of the bench guy being a better choice than crappy old Lance and Lou just dont get it. Its not nintendo. These are men with jobs to do. Lou and Lance already know their jobs. They also be effective players next to more talented guys. A guy like Lou is going to look great next to Melo and KP. Its when you ask him to give you 15ppg and 10rebs in 35 minutes a night when he's going to get exposed. Thats not fair or what he was signed for.

I understand your point. Continuity has importance, but I don't believe in brining both players back. I think talent and potential has more value over continuity in the long run, especially when the player will have training camp and the summer to learn the system, while not playing significant minutes in a way it would effect the team. That is just me though

I have no problem with that man... but have ZERO continuity, and we brought in a lot of young guys and prospects. So we have young guys.. alot of them. At least you can see the logic, even if you dont agree with it. Some here simply cant get past they like NDour more than Lance Thomas so Phil sucks, its a debacle, its amazing, more of the same.. its stupid and its based on assumptions on the first place.

To me the BIGGEST piece of this mystery is the most obvious. He's a rookie trying to make it in the NBA. You go to a team where you have 5 guys ahead of you? Or do you go to a team with one guy ahead of you who's 37?

The vocal guys killing this are making their argument around an assumption that we were outbid, and probably by very little. That is a very stupid arguement, sorry to be blunt. At least when one roster is so clearly a better fit for him than the other. Like NDour really cares about $1.5mm vs. $900k or whatever. He cares about making 4 years $60mm next paycheck instead of a 2 years $5mm try to stay in the league contract.

I was no surprised at all. Ndour would have had to beat either melo, early and Thomas or Williams KP and amundson. Him or amundson at Center would not have worked that well in my opinion. They have a serious lack of size and it would be open season at our rim. Robin lopes has a bad injury history and in the event of an injury, so they would have played significant minutes in the event of robins injury. Oh well.

foosballnick wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:It's okay to have lance and Thomas but it's dumb to take money out of the cap to pay those guys. I said before, a vet min deal for loud would be around 1.5m, and the league pays part of it. So that's why it's silly. Just make good financial and ball decisions. Why, hold on to your room exception but let 3.2m go to end of bench guys. Even if you don't get anyone you leave room for trades.

From a financial perspective I agree. However I also understand why he did it. He likely wanted to secure good locker room guys who would support Fisher and also who had some experience in the Triangle. We will never know if these guys would have signed for one year vet min contracts with the Knicks or not. He likely feels he already has enough younger guys to develop and wants to ensure a hard working ethical veteran presence to balance the roster. I liked what I say from NDour and he could develop nicely - but it was still only summer league and for Dallas to even partially guarantee for multiple years prior to TC seems like a curious move.

Something is wrong if lance and Lou feel they are above vet min players. I get having lockerroom guys but get some with skills. Ther isn't anything anyone can point to that they do on the court that helps the team. Also, they only had a 1/2 yr in the triangle and we are suppose I assume they are a couple of triangle Einstein's?

Also, people say it's just summer league but what exactly is the point of summer league, place to see players play against their peers. N'dour wasn't a 6 - 71yr hopeful, he was a rookie that showed promise that his college game could transfer. The Knicks are in a rebuild mold with zero picks next year any chance they have at picking up hidden gems they should take it.