RonRon wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Finestrg wrote:What a bizarre-ass off-season. LOVED the draft but it's been followed up by the most lackluster, head-scratching FA period a team with cap space could possibly have...There's still time to salvage it I guess but man I swear, I don't get what they're doing at all. Robin Lopez? $12-13mm? Really??? I just don't see this move for the life of me. $12mm for Robin Lopez SINKS any chance we have of doing anything else significant at this point.. There was no rhyme or reason to anything they did or tried to do. They locked in Aaron Afflalo thinking that along with Melo and Porzingis, it would help lure Greg Monroe. It didn't. The man chose the Milwaukee Bucks over us... The Melo factor was non-existent here in FA btw... Who cares that Melo was already here? None of these FA do, I can tell you that!! Now we're stuck with Afflalo and I bet Phil deep down wishes he could have that back--so that's minus 8mm off the cap right there. Now we're at $19mm...Then they have a sit-down with LaMarcus Aldridge cancelled outright (how embarrassing is that?) because they want the guy to play C and apparently refuse to budge off the idea (how it reads to me)...I mean how 'bout a "well, that's not set in stone of course. Let's meet and we can talk about it"?? Now in a panic move, we go out and give RoLo $12-13mm which, as it turns out, probably should've been our very first move -- if we had gotten Lopez first, we could've sat down with Aldridge (or Monroe first I suppose) and talked the PF spot exclusively with each player, and thus had a much better shot at either guy. These guy's are both scoring 4s--they don't want to play the 5 and don't belong playing the 5 (I had Alexis Ajinca picked out for my starting C over a month ago). Amar'e took one for the team and did it but did he really want to play the 5 when he was here? No, he didn't. He was outspoken against it in fact...Now we bring in Lopez on top of Afflalo -- that's 8 + 12-13 = $21mm, only approx. $6mm left to spend now. You wanna tell me the plan now is to conserve the rest for the following off-season--nah, don't buy it. That was never their plan. They were talking to max FAs only hours ago.

I don't even care for Robin Lopez to be honest. He's a capable defensive backup 5 that we gave starter money to, albeit for 1 yr I understand, but the dollar amount just torpedoed any chance we have of doing anything else significant... For the money--I would've preferred Kosta Koufos--at least you can reason that KK still has untapped offensive ability that could still be developed (I would've saw to it if I were Phil and Fish). The college version of Kosta Koufos was a DAMN GOOD player, much better than what he's settled for being in the pro game thusfar. I would've preferred Koufos over RoLo myself and we couldn't even do that. I mean Jordan Bachnyski's out there and we're bringing in this Ovidijus Galdikas for SL -- two big Cs who in all likelihood, could've given us everything Robin Lopez will wind up giving us, probably more...No need to give RoLo $13mm now--that should've been our very first move, pre-Afflalo, to lure LMA or GM. SMH man...

At this point with the leftover cash--I'm hoping for Alexey Shved and Derrick Williams. And even that feels like a **** up because Shved was supposed to be an extra piece we had on the back burner that we supposedly were planning to exceed the cap to bring back after at least one tier 1 guy was in the fold. Could still try to sign Shved in that manner I guess...Jesus, what a mess. Just comes across like they didn't have a solid plan at all. Everything should've flowed much better, like dominos -- move B needed to come first (the lure for move A), then A, then the C/D moves...We went out and overpaid for a C/D guy first, then B and now there can be no A... This is why I would've looked to hook up multiple FAs all at once on one conference call or one of the first sit-downs...I was calling for that weeks ago because I was fearing they wouldn't have a proper plan in place and you know what, I was right--it doesn't look like they did.

Raise your hand if Aaron Afflalo and Robin Lopez gets your juices flowing, if that's the FA you envisioned with $27mm in cap room. Exactly...

I just read Isola's article and I am not a fan of his but he is right when he says David Falk would get Monroe a max deal and Phil failed when he didn't offer it. Conflicting reports about that but Wojo, Hahn, Herring etc. are all saying Monroe wasn't offered a max deal. If Monroe was lost because of that you have to give Phil a D- for free agency.

However, IF MONROE really wanted to go to New York, he would have gave Phil Jackson at least a chance to match...
Unless the Affalo signing turned him off as he wanted another TOP tier guy to join him

Monroe wanted to feel like he was a team's number 1 option. He's a max guy with a max ego now. Nothing wrong with that. Phil likely gave him the same treatment he is giving Lopez. Monroe probably felt disrespected by that. If we ended the 12am meeting with Monroe with a max offer, he would have accepted. No question about it. Phil took a chance that fell through.

smackeddog wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:13 mil is a lot if that's the price but Lopez is a very good player and I know the market is high and we have to overpay. Lopez is still in his mid 20s too. If it's for 13 mil per, I'd give the signing a B or B+. If it's for less, a higher grade. Lopez's rebounding is lower than Tyson's but his game does remind me of Tyson's. Afflalo is adequate but I'd rather have the 8 mil available for other transactions.

Both players are solid NBA starters, if we had one more starting quality forward on the roster we would be a playoff team. We don't have anyone to defend the 3 or 4

Agreed, though I'm still hoping the bulls take Calderón for Taj Gibson, and somehow we get Beverly from the Rockets. Highly unlikely though

I don't get the point of acquiring Beverly - unless we have a move lined up for Calderon

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:What kind of scoring opportunities will Lopez have in the triangle? He averages 14 points per 36 but he does almost all his scoring in the paint.

I don't understand the reliance on the per 36 stat..Every minute of a game isn't equal..The gradual gravitation towards crunch time means guys like Lopez won't touch the ball on offense..His per game stat better reflects what actually happens in a game..

Amen

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:What kind of scoring opportunities will Lopez have in the triangle? He averages 14 points per 36 but he does almost all his scoring in the paint.

I don't understand the reliance on the per 36 stat..Every minute of a game isn't equal..The gradual gravitation towards crunch time means guys like Lopez won't touch the ball on offense..His per game stat better reflects what actually happens in a game..

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:What kind of scoring opportunities will Lopez have in the triangle? He averages 14 points per 36 but he does almost all his scoring in the paint.

I don't understand the reliance on the per 36 stat..Every minute of a game isn't equal..The gradual gravitation towards crunch time means guys like Lopez won't touch the ball on offense..His per game stat better reflects what actually happens in a game..

Yeah, that's a common hypothesis but one I have not seen evidence for.
If you take his average from the last years, he averaged 11 points in 29 min. 3 points in the remaining 7 min doesn't sound far-fetched. If you want to be conservative and reduce his scoring by 33% in those 7 min, we can say 2 points and say 13 per 36. I've not seen any evidence that that kind of an adjustment would be needed though.
For the record, though, I think win shares and other advanced stats are more important than per 36 #s.

There are so many variables involved..Look at how the game is changing..Guys like Lopez who can't stretch the floor played less in the playoffs than previous years..Lopez played less last playoff than the previous year..He also play less minutes during the regular season than the previous season..

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:What kind of scoring opportunities will Lopez have in the triangle? He averages 14 points per 36 but he does almost all his scoring in the paint.

I don't understand the reliance on the per 36 stat..Every minute of a game isn't equal..The gradual gravitation towards crunch time means guys like Lopez won't touch the ball on offense..His per game stat better reflects what actually happens in a game..

Yeah, that's a common hypothesis but one I have not seen evidence for.
If you take his average from the last years, he averaged 11 points in 29 min. 3 points in the remaining 7 min doesn't sound far-fetched. If you want to be conservative and reduce his scoring by 33% in those 7 min, we can say 2 points and say 13 per 36. I've not seen any evidence that that kind of an adjustment would be needed though.
For the record, though, I think win shares and other advanced stats are more important than per 36 #s.

There are so many variables involved..Look at how the game is changing..Guys like Lopez who can't stretch the floor played less in the playoffs than previous years..Lopez played less last playoff than the previous year..He also play less minutes during the regular season than the previous season..

holfresh wrote:After months of speculation of possibly obtaining the number one pick and cap space to sign the best free agents who wants to play in NY..Back to reality, eh Knick fans...

Yea instead of
Towns, Monroe, Affalo

We get
Kp(who I love) Lopez, Affalo

Yuck!!!

The life of a Knick fan. How in the world are we going to win a championship during Melo's tenure? Just be honest. Do you really think we are beating the best of the proved East let alone the West? This is a perennial 5-8th seed team. 1st/2nd round knockout. Woodson had a better team in 2012-13 with Melo Amare Tyson & Kidd.

This is why we traded Tyson, Shump & JR for and got ZERO value back to get cap space?

Let that sink in a moment. Don't tell me tell me the Knicks are acquiring I drafted dleague guys and stashing some Euros. I don't want to here it. We bent over backwards for cap space to acquire Affalo & Lopez???? Let that sink in!

I'm glad everyone is giddy. Everyone was giddy after acquiring bargnani, jason smith, Sam dalembert & Calderon too. Some even thought we'd win 50+ games the past 2yrs! Ironically this team may be better but very mediocre.

If not for the prospects of Porzingis becoming a special player I'd probably give this team up for good. What a joke

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:What kind of scoring opportunities will Lopez have in the triangle? He averages 14 points per 36 but he does almost all his scoring in the paint.

I don't understand the reliance on the per 36 stat..Every minute of a game isn't equal..The gradual gravitation towards crunch time means guys like Lopez won't touch the ball on offense..His per game stat better reflects what actually happens in a game..

Yeah, that's a common hypothesis but one I have not seen evidence for.
If you take his average from the last years, he averaged 11 points in 29 min. 3 points in the remaining 7 min doesn't sound far-fetched. If you want to be conservative and reduce his scoring by 33% in those 7 min, we can say 2 points and say 13 per 36. I've not seen any evidence that that kind of an adjustment would be needed though.
For the record, though, I think win shares and other advanced stats are more important than per 36 #s.

There are so many variables involved..Look at how the game is changing..Guys like Lopez who can't stretch the floor played less in the playoffs than previous years..Lopez played less last playoff than the previous year..He also play less minutes during the regular season than the previous season..

What's your point? We already know with playing time he's an efficient double digit scorer and my only question was whether the triangle will affect his scoring. If I had known the conversation was going to get side-tracked, I would have said 11 efficient points in 29 min instead of translating it to per 36 #s.

You can always ignore if it's not the desired direction of your conversation..but my point was clear..

nixluva wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

holfresh wrote:After months of speculation of possibly obtaining the number one pick and cap space to sign the best free agents who wants to play in NY..Back to reality, eh Knick fans...

Yea instead of
Towns, Monroe, Affalo

We get
Kp(who I love) Lopez, Affalo

Yuck!!!

The life of a Knick fan. How in the world are we going to win a championship during Melo's tenure? Just be honest. Do you really think we are beating the best of the proved East let alone the West? This is a perennial 5-8th seed team. 1st/2nd round knockout. Woodson had a better team in 2012-13 with Melo Amare Tyson & Kidd.

This is why we traded Tyson, Shump & JR for and got ZERO value back to get cap space?

Let that sink in a moment. Don't tell me tell me the Knicks are acquiring I drafted dleague guys and stashing some Euros. I don't want to here it. We bent over backwards for cap space to acquire Affalo & Lopez???? Let that sink in!

I'm glad everyone is giddy. Everyone was giddy after acquiring bargnani, jason smith, Sam dalembert & Calderon too. Some even thought we'd win 50+ games the past 2yrs!

If not for the prospects of Porzingis becoming a special player I'd probably give this team up for good. What a joke

The only thing I can say is don't judge based on the names. It's about how all the parts fit together. If the team improves that was step one. We can't say it's only a success if we have Monroe and a total fail if instead we have Lopez. Monroe was better offensively and Lopez defensively. In the end their impact should be a lot closer than it may seem. Look at how they ranked on the WS48 advanced stats list I had for FA's. They were very close. Ranked 17th and 19th.

Rk  Player        Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   ORB%  DRB%  TRB%  AST%  STL% BLK% TOV%  USG%  OWS  DWS  WS   WS/48 ▾ VORP
17  G. Monroe	  PF  24  DET  69  2137  21.2  .549  .000  .394  11.2  25.1  17.9  11.7  1.9  1.3  13.0  23.9  4.0  2.8  6.8   .153    2.1
19  R. Lopez	  C   26  POR  59  1638  16.2  .574  .002  .291  12.7  13.1  12.9  5.1   0.5  3.7  12.9  15.5  3.2  1.9  5.1   .150    1.7

Weren't you dissing Lopez not too long ago..He game improved when the Knicks got interested?

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

holfresh wrote:After months of speculation of possibly obtaining the number one pick and cap space to sign the best free agents who wants to play in NY..Back to reality, eh Knick fans...

Yea instead of
Towns, Monroe, Affalo

We get
Kp(who I love) Lopez, Affalo

Yuck!!!

The life of a Knick fan. How in the world are we going to win a championship during Melo's tenure? Just be honest. Do you really think we are beating the best of the proved East let alone the West? This is a perennial 5-8th seed team. 1st/2nd round knockout. Woodson had a better team in 2012-13 with Melo Amare Tyson & Kidd.

This is why we traded Tyson, Shump & JR for and got ZERO value back to get cap space?

Let that sink in a moment. Don't tell me tell me the Knicks are acquiring I drafted dleague guys and stashing some Euros. I don't want to here it. We bent over backwards for cap space to acquire Affalo & Lopez???? Let that sink in!

I'm glad everyone is giddy. Everyone was giddy after acquiring bargnani, jason smith, Sam dalembert & Calderon too. Some even thought we'd win 50+ games the past 2yrs!

If not for the prospects of Porzingis becoming a special player I'd probably give this team up for good. What a joke

The only thing I can say is don't judge based on the names. It's about how all the parts fit together. If the team improves that was step one. We can't say it's only a success if we have Monroe and a total fail if instead we have Lopez. Monroe was better offensively and Lopez defensively. In the end their impact should be a lot closer than it may seem. Look at how they ranked on the WS48 advanced stats list I had for FA's. They were very close. Ranked 17th and 19th.

Rk  Player        Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   ORB%  DRB%  TRB%  AST%  STL% BLK% TOV%  USG%  OWS  DWS  WS   WS/48 ▾ VORP
17  G. Monroe	  PF  24  DET  69  2137  21.2  .549  .000  .394  11.2  25.1  17.9  11.7  1.9  1.3  13.0  23.9  4.0  2.8  6.8   .153    2.1
19  R. Lopez	  C   26  POR  59  1638  16.2  .574  .002  .291  12.7  13.1  12.9  5.1   0.5  3.7  12.9  15.5  3.2  1.9  5.1   .150    1.7

Weren't you dissing Lopez not too long ago..He game improved when the Knicks got interested?

As I said to someone else. It's all relative. I obviously DIDN'T think he was bad given his placement on my WS48 list which i've had for months. Anyone on that list was considered a better than average player in the league. Now among the players on that list there was a clear upper echelon and Lopez wasn't at the very top. He was in the middle. My post above is taken from my list so once again I clearly didn't think Lopez sucked. That makes sense.

you called him mediocre, that's a fact. don't hide behind this "he was on my list" crap, that's bull****