callmened wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:1. Yes I believe that if we get picks 1 or 2 we should pick Towns or Okafor--no change.
2 We should try to sign Kanter --I would personally but we wont and OKC will match anyway.
3. I think the Knicks plan is WCS and Monroe if we get less than pick #1. Yep--thats what I think.
4. Yes Id like to think long and hard about potential ideas of trading a pick less than 2. Why wouldnt anyone look at any situation in multiple ways?
5. No I never said Danny Green is not a true SG--I said he 's a SG who doesnt drive the ball and has prospered by being on the Spurs.
6. No Kanter can score all over the court hes an advanced skill player and he can do it with or without Westbrook at PG. I like his age and skill set with where the Knicks are in development.
7. I do not like the 2015 free agency Id rather trade my cap space for picks. If we can get picks 16 and 30 from Boston and GS Id take Chritsian Wood at 16 if not there Bobby Portis at 30 Id take Tyler Harvey not there Rashaud Vaughn then Dakari Johnson. There are several senior guard I like--we will have no clue who goes to UFDA status.
8. If we get than pick 2 and we dont trad it Ill make a final determination of pick a day before the draft. My preference would likely be too turn it into multiple assets--young players and picks but it might not be doable obviously.
9. If we do take free agents Id pay up to 12.5mm for Demarre Carroll Id resign Alex Svhyed and If GS gave me 2 first round picks for David Lee--Id stop there. If not Id look at Ajinca for the right price. Thats pretty much it other than 1 yr deals

- i pretty much agree with all of this. if its not towns or okafor - id consider trading the pick.
- kanter is a nice player (with flaws) but OKC didnt go thru all these trades just to get rid of him. hes NOT available
- this yrs free agent class is NOT impressive.
- my #1 hope and target is Butler (hoping that the bulls will be cheap - but its a long shot)
- id settle for acquiring free agent role players = green/carrol/ajinca/harris/monroe - all of these guys are ROLE players.

Exactly- we have Melo, I hope we are able to add another franchise changing talent in the draft, that gives you two stars- all you need to do at this point is surround them with role players, then we have a big chunk of cap space next season to either add more role players, or target a bigger player. You can then also shift any well performing role players for picks

Danny Green does not shoot the ball when a defender is near him and cannot really create his own shot. He is basically a catch and shoot specialist and needs the defender to off him.

Playing on the knicks, he may have some of those looks but he may have to create as well as hit shots with a defender on him (or close to him). He is not good at that.

Can the knicks build a top offense where the ball moves, players get doubled and are willing to kick, and there are wide open looks? Maybe, but it does not look like its gonna happen any time soon.

Green is a very good defender and of course, I would love that side of him but at what cost?

mreinman wrote:I may actually agree with briggs on this one.

Danny Green does not shoot the ball when a defender is near him and cannot really create his own shot. He is basically a catch and shoot specialist and needs the defender to off him.

Playing on the knicks, he may have some of those looks but he may have to create as well as hit shots with a defender on him (or close to him). He is not good at that.

Can the knicks build a top offense where the ball moves, players get doubled and are willing to kick, and there are wide open looks? Maybe, but it does not look like its gonna happen any time soon.

Green is a very good defender and of course, I would love that side of him but at what cost?

I'm gonna freaking lose it if one more person says something like this. This shows a total misunderstanding of how the Triangle works. Danny would get open looks in this offense. The Spurs actually use parts of the Triangle in their offense. The Triangle is literally all about ball and player movement so I don't understand why people keep talking like we play a style of ball that is stagnant. It's not anything close to a stagnant offense.

Everything is cuts, spacing and ball movement. Also when you play D and get out on the break you'll have layups and open 3's as well. Don't judge everything off of how bad things looked this year, but rather imagine a player who is confident in his 3pt jumper and actively looks for it doing that in this offense. We have too many guys who step inside the 3pt line when they have an open 3 but Danny wouldn't do that.

Although it's not a 4 out offense, it really wouldn't take much to add that aspect to the flow since the 4 man could step out if he had stretch 4 ability rather than stay under the 3pt line on the opposite side of the strong side Triangle. You can see that in this diagram. Everyone else is out behind the 3pt line except the 4 and 5, but the 4 could easily move out.

The 3's are there in this offense but guys have to be confident and take those shots. Galloway, Lance and Early spread out and took 3's in this game.

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:I may actually agree with briggs on this one.

Danny Green does not shoot the ball when a defender is near him and cannot really create his own shot. He is basically a catch and shoot specialist and needs the defender to off him.

Playing on the knicks, he may have some of those looks but he may have to create as well as hit shots with a defender on him (or close to him). He is not good at that.

Can the knicks build a top offense where the ball moves, players get doubled and are willing to kick, and there are wide open looks? Maybe, but it does not look like its gonna happen any time soon.

Green is a very good defender and of course, I would love that side of him but at what cost?

I'm gonna freaking lose it if one more person says something like this. This shows a total misunderstanding of how the Triangle works. Danny would get open looks in this offense. The Spurs actually use parts of the Triangle in their offense. The Triangle is literally all about ball and player movement so I don't understand why people keep talking like we play a style of ball that is stagnant. It's not anything close to a stagnant offense.

Everything is cuts, spacing and ball movement. Also when you play D and get out on the break you'll have layups and open 3's as well. Don't judge everything off of how bad things looked this year, but rather imagine a player who is confident in his 3pt jumper and actively looks for it doing that in this offense. We have too many guys who step inside the 3pt line when they have an open 3 but Danny wouldn't do that.

Although it's not a 4 out offense, it really wouldn't take much to add that aspect to the flow since the 4 man could step out if he had stretch 4 ability rather than stay under the 3pt line on the opposite side of the strong side Triangle. You can see that in this diagram. Everyone else is out behind the 3pt line except the 4 and 5, but the 4 could easily move out.

The 3's are there in this offense but guys have to be confident and take those shots. Galloway, Lance and Early spread out and took 3's in this game.

you can go ahead and lose it if you'd like ...

I don't give a sh1t about "the" triangle, I care about "our" triangle.

What it could be? Who knows ... time will tell.

Now? It ain't gonna get open looks like SA. I don't need charts for that. We don't have those players.

Danny Green does not shoot well when anyone is near him. How will he do with less space? Maybe ... not so good (or not nearly as good)

You make it sound like all our SG would be able to do is drive since they would have a defender on them at all times, so he'd have to create every shot he got. That's not even close to the truth. Danny averages about 5 3pt attempts per game and about 3.5 2pt attempts. I suspect he'd continue to be in that range on this team. If we have improved post threats which is what Phil intends to bring in, there will be open shots on the perimeter.

I'm always posting proof of what i'm trying to say so that it can't be claimed i'm just talking out of my ass. When you say that Danny won't get open shots from 3 I have to say that you aren't standing on any proof to back that up. We didn't even have a great team and yet players were getting open looks. THJ got a ton of open looks but didn't knock them down at a high enough rate. Why would Danny be somehow unable to get the same looks?

Rk  Player	        Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA ▾	3P%	
1   Tim Hardaway	22	70	30	24.0	4.0	10.2	.389	1.7	5.1	.342	
2   Carmelo Anthony	30	40	40	35.7	9.0	20.2	.444	1.5	4.5	.341	
3   Alexey Shved	26	16	9	26.4	4.6	11.3	.403	1.6	4.4	.371	
4   Langston Galloway	23	45	41	32.4	4.5	11.4	.399	1.4	3.9	.352	
5   Jose Calderon	33	42	42	30.2	3.5	8.4	.415	1.4	3.4	.415	
6   Cleanthony Early	23	39	7	16.6	1.9	5.5	.355	0.6	2.2	.262
7   Ricky Ledo	        22	12	0	19.4	2.7	7.5	.356	0.8	2.0	.417	
8   Shane Larkin	22	76	22	24.5	2.5	5.7	.433	0.5	1.5	.302	
9   Andrea Bargnani	29	29	22	27.1	5.7	12.4	.454	0.5	1.4	.366

I did not say that Danny G won't get opened looks, I said that he won't get nearly the same amount of space that he gets now.

example:

if on the spurs the defender was an average of 4 feet away from him on his shots, do you think that its possible that on the knicks it will be less do to personnel?

I did not say that you need to drive on this team, I say that you need to drive more if you can't get enough very open freebies.

mreinman wrote:@Nixluva,

I did not say that Danny G won't get opened looks, I said that he won't get nearly the same amount of space that he gets now.

example:

if on the spurs the defender was an average of 4 feet away from him on his shots, do you think that its possible that on the knicks it will be less do to personnel?

I did not say that you need to drive on this team, I say that you need to drive more if you can't get enough very open freebies.

I'm saying that even without great talent the offense was able to give open 3pt shots to players who wanted them. Some of our players were reluctant to take the open 3's. A player like Green will get open looks on a revamped Knicks roster. If THJ could avg. similar 3pt attempts as Danny with less talent on the Knicks, then i'm sure Danny will get quality looks next year with a better starting roster.

Also Danny doesn't have to be a great penetration SG in order to be effective pump faking and driving on defenders charging out to him at the 3pt line. He actually does drive even tho it's not at a high rate. It doesn't mean that Danny couldn't look to drive more if it was required. He's not going to be going one on one showcasing And1 street ball handles. That's not his strength. But he can make simple drives when it's necessary.

Also you keep saying that basically Danny Green has to be wide open in order to hit his 3's but even that isn't really true. Even with a defender near him he can still raise up and shoot it quick.

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:@Nixluva,

I did not say that Danny G won't get opened looks, I said that he won't get nearly the same amount of space that he gets now.

example:

if on the spurs the defender was an average of 4 feet away from him on his shots, do you think that its possible that on the knicks it will be less do to personnel?

I did not say that you need to drive on this team, I say that you need to drive more if you can't get enough very open freebies.

I'm saying that even without great talent the offense was able to give open 3pt shots to players who wanted them. Some of our players were reluctant to take the open 3's. A player like Green will get open looks on a revamped Knicks roster. If THJ could avg. similar 3pt attempts as Danny with less talent on the Knicks, then i'm sure Danny will get quality looks next year with a better starting roster.

Also Danny doesn't have to be a great penetration SG in order to be effective pump faking and driving on defenders charging out to him at the 3pt line. He actually does drive even tho it's not at a high rate. It doesn't mean that Danny couldn't look to drive more if it was required. He's not going to be going one on one showcasing And1 street ball handles. That's not his strength. But he can make simple drives when it's necessary.

Also you keep saying that basically Danny Green has to be wide open in order to hit his 3's but even that isn't really true. Even with a defender near him he can still raise up and shoot it quick.

comparing attempts to THJ is really not relevant. Its how opened those attempts were.

I would guess that SA's 3 point attempt were twice as opened as the knicks attempts were (e.g. the defender was twice as far away)

Even if the Knicks are not totally successful in upgrading the talent there should still be better execution. My hope is that with a healthy Melo, our draft pick, Danny and another FA big, this team should be able to execute offensively at a higher level. The spacing should improve with an increase in talent and further development of our young players.

I'm still not understanding this view that we should not look to land players like Danny Green who would represent an upgrade on both ends simply because our team isn't as good as the Spurs. How do you get that good if you don't make sure your role players are high quality in addition to your star players?

crzymdups wrote:You start by having a foundation in place. Then you add the role players who can fit your system with 2nd round picks and late first rounders.

Most good teams don't overpay role players.

I think Danny Green is better than a role player... but he's also called the Spurs his family and said he loves them and he's never leaving... so, I mean, uh, we could try to sign him? I doubt he'd even fly to NY for a meeting with the team.

The Knicks are going to have a very hard time in FA. Stealing someone like Green from the Spurs will be harder, because he knows what the best organization in sports looks like. Why on earth would he want to come to NY. You don't think teams around the league know the reputation of this team? Players talk. Everyone knows this is a nightmare. See Beno Udrih laughing at the idea Marc Gasol would come here. See JR and Shump smirking to be in Cleveland. Players around the league know this place is a nightmare and most of them aren't leaving their team, especially if it's a good situation, to come to NY.

You're assuming that we'd go after Green 1st. The truth is that we draft 1st and then we sign FA's who actually want to come here for a bigger payday, improved role and more of the spotlight than they may currently have. Players realize how fast things change in the NBA. You basically win with your top 6 players. That means you're never that far away from putting together a solid core roster.

Agents do the actual shopping for their clients new contracts, they are the ones that do the major sell job on a given situation. After Phil talks to the players agents they'll come up with numbers and an overall picture of how they figure into the team for the next few years. These agents already know what the Knicks are willing to pay their clients. A good agent will not just ignore the Knicks if he feels they'll play his client more and that it would mean better endorsements and a bigger role.

The Knicks are going to be on the way up, not down. Don't assume that agents won't be able to see that and relay that to their clients. There are lot of Free Agents looking for a new contract and better situation. Not all of them are in Marc Gasol's situation.

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:@Nixluva,

I did not say that Danny G won't get opened looks, I said that he won't get nearly the same amount of space that he gets now.

example:

if on the spurs the defender was an average of 4 feet away from him on his shots, do you think that its possible that on the knicks it will be less do to personnel?

I did not say that you need to drive on this team, I say that you need to drive more if you can't get enough very open freebies.

I'm saying that even without great talent the offense was able to give open 3pt shots to players who wanted them. Some of our players were reluctant to take the open 3's. A player like Green will get open looks on a revamped Knicks roster. If THJ could avg. similar 3pt attempts as Danny with less talent on the Knicks, then i'm sure Danny will get quality looks next year with a better starting roster.

Also Danny doesn't have to be a great penetration SG in order to be effective pump faking and driving on defenders charging out to him at the 3pt line. He actually does drive even tho it's not at a high rate. It doesn't mean that Danny couldn't look to drive more if it was required. He's not going to be going one on one showcasing And1 street ball handles. That's not his strength. But he can make simple drives when it's necessary.

Also you keep saying that basically Danny Green has to be wide open in order to hit his 3's but even that isn't really true. Even with a defender near him he can still raise up and shoot it quick.

comparing attempts to THJ is really not relevant. Its how opened those attempts were.

I would guess that SA's 3 point attempt were twice as opened as the knicks attempts were (e.g. the defender was twice as far away)

So basically you are just making something up based on zero evidence? Why not just examine Greens open shots with THJr, Smith, and Shumps? I am sure there is a place that records open shots versus defended.

Bottom line is even if he gets less open shots or if his 3pt% drops he is stil an above average defender at the 2 that can guard 1-3. That alone is valuable.

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:@Nixluva,

I did not say that Danny G won't get opened looks, I said that he won't get nearly the same amount of space that he gets now.

example:

if on the spurs the defender was an average of 4 feet away from him on his shots, do you think that its possible that on the knicks it will be less do to personnel?

I did not say that you need to drive on this team, I say that you need to drive more if you can't get enough very open freebies.

I'm saying that even without great talent the offense was able to give open 3pt shots to players who wanted them. Some of our players were reluctant to take the open 3's. A player like Green will get open looks on a revamped Knicks roster. If THJ could avg. similar 3pt attempts as Danny with less talent on the Knicks, then i'm sure Danny will get quality looks next year with a better starting roster.

Also Danny doesn't have to be a great penetration SG in order to be effective pump faking and driving on defenders charging out to him at the 3pt line. He actually does drive even tho it's not at a high rate. It doesn't mean that Danny couldn't look to drive more if it was required. He's not going to be going one on one showcasing And1 street ball handles. That's not his strength. But he can make simple drives when it's necessary.

Also you keep saying that basically Danny Green has to be wide open in order to hit his 3's but even that isn't really true. Even with a defender near him he can still raise up and shoot it quick.

comparing attempts to THJ is really not relevant. Its how opened those attempts were.

I would guess that SA's 3 point attempt were twice as opened as the knicks attempts were (e.g. the defender was twice as far away)

So basically you are just making something up based on zero evidence? Why not just examine Greens open shots with THJr, Smith, and Shumps? I am sure there is a place that records open shots versus defended.

Bottom line is even if he gets less open shots or if his 3pt% drops he is stil an above average defender at the 2 that can guard 1-3. That alone is valuable.

easy!

I am not making stuff up, I remember seeing data recently that discussed the shots he takes and the space that he has.

He does play great defense.

I did not say that he would not be a good player for us at the right price but I don't expect him to be nearly as efficient as he is/was in SA.

At what cost?

Now I wouldn't pay 10m for either of them but grabbing pieces and talent we could utilize in the future is a step by step process and players that FIT are needed
I would also sign a D League shooter like Jarell Eddie and CJ Fair to learn of players like Danny Green....

That was the main reason why I valued Draymond Green from the start and didn't just judge him with the boxscores alone