Silverfuel wrote:The only thing these people have been close to the truth on was Phil Jackson knows what he is doing and he just resigned Melo. Most of the BS in this forum is from people that just want to push their negative agenda, not add anything valid to the conversation. They are going to keep this up for 4 years and hope the Knicks lose otherwise they will be exposed as the hapless idiots they are. Better to ignore them than to engage them.

"these people"

what are you going on about?

jackson: "He did exactly what we kind of asked him to do. Give us a break in the early part of his contract so that when we have some wiggle room next year, which is hopefully big enough wiggle room, we can exploit it, provide a more competitive team for our group,"

http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_/id/11210007/carmelo-anthony-reaches-deal-new-york-knicks

what truth do you speak of? do you understand that the real world has mostly to do with realpolitik? jackson's statement was transparent doubletalk! i don't mind because he is innocent until proven guilty. plus he has to deal with carmelo... sheer torture. and does fisher have the stones to challenge anthony?

he'd better or it will be more of the same.

Phil knows you need talents to win in NBA. If he loses Melo, he is facing with rebuild and definitely not what Dolan had in mind when he hired Phil. We all know Dolan is an impatient man and Phil's future is riding on signing Melo.

"I believe Phil will do what he has to do to take care of that." For Melo to make a statement like that, My guess is Phil apparently panicked and probably made some promises that Melo is holding Phil accountable. He is putting pressure on Phil. If we don't win, blame it on him. I took less to sign here and I made a sacrifice. I did my part and it's his job to keep his promise to put a championship team together.

dk7th wrote:what truth do you speak of? do you understand that the real world has mostly to do with realpolitik? jackson's statement was transparent doubletalk! i don't mind because he is innocent until proven guilty. plus he has to deal with carmelo... sheer torture. and does fisher have the stones to challenge anthony?

OK, this is what I need help understanding because Ive posed this question in other threads and gotten no answers. Ill preface this by saying, dk, that while I can't work up the energy to hate Carmelo personally or whatever, AS A BASKETBALL PLAYER SIGNED UNDER THE CONSTRAINTS OF A SALARY CAP, Ive _never_ been a big fan. Ive lurked on this site for a long while but only recently started posting but Ive been consistent that Im not a big fan of Carmelo's game though he has certainly shown some improvements over the years in some facets. Regardless, I was against giving him the max and felt in lieu of maxing out a Carmelo it would've been better to let him walk or trade him, bottom out next year and then use the high pick + cap room in the summer of 2015 to put a team together that was 100% players Phil and Fisher handpicked.

And that's the thing, they clearly did not choose that path. It actually would've been a very quick almost total rebuild and its a rarity that a team has that luxury. The Knicks situation was not dire at all had Carmelo walked. Anyone saying it was was ignoring reality.

OK, so this is where what I read people posting and what happened not jibe. 1) Phil came here under the pretext he would have 100% autonomy over basketball decisions so jettisoning Carmelo would certainly qualify as something Phil could do 2) Phil came here to the Knicks, by all accounts a laughingstock franchise for the past decade and a half after a career filled with _nothing_ but successes at every stop along the way. It is quite a legacy and accordingly he is a very rich man. I have a very, VERY had time believing Phil Jackson came to the Knicks to simply crack open the MSG vault and swim around like Scrooge McDuck. For one, it would go against the everything he's claimed he's about all these years and secondly and more importantly coming here to be Dolan's gimp would be the ultimate shytepile on top of his legacy. I think Phil values his legacy, which again is untarnished, a whoooole lot. Even moreso than money to some degree.

So logically it follows that if Phil did not want Carmelo back, even at the max, it would signify that Phil's autonomy was overriden by Dolan, a mere what 4-5 months after being handed the keys and told to go nuts? No, I think the moment Dolan meddles Phil is outta here on the next plane to LAX. He doesnt seem like the kinda guy who's gonna be taking orders from Jim Dolan and secondly the moment Dolan meddles Phil knows he can kiss his legacy of doing nothing but winning GOODBYE because it means the Knicks are about to make very bad basketball decisions.

Thus, I can only conclude that no matter what I or anyone thinks about Carmelo Anthony's game, PHIL is taking a chance on making him the centerpiece of the makeover Phil is conducting on this team. Now, I can only assume Phil thinks he can mentor him and make him a better player NOT that Phil is holding his nose or being coerced into re-signing him, or tolerating Carmelo (you said "sheer torture"), or what have you. He seems to genuinely believe he can change him for the better.

Now can he? Will he? Will it work? Who knows. But we do know Phil just gambled his equivalent of an undefeated record on it. I think that tells us a lot about what Phil is thinking. And, sure, he could be spectacularly wrong, too. Im not saying Phil is infallible or a god or something. Just that the notion of Phil not wanting Carmelo back is most definitely _not_ accurate.

H1AND1 wrote:

dk7th wrote:what truth do you speak of? do you understand that the real world has mostly to do with realpolitik? jackson's statement was transparent doubletalk! i don't mind because he is innocent until proven guilty. plus he has to deal with carmelo... sheer torture. and does fisher have the stones to challenge anthony?

OK, this is what I need help understanding because Ive posed this question in other threads and gotten no answers. Ill preface this by saying, dk, that while I can't work up the energy to hate Carmelo personally or whatever, AS A BASKETBALL PLAYER SIGNED UNDER THE CONSTRAINTS OF A SALARY CAP, Ive _never_ been a big fan. Ive lurked on this site for a long while but only recently started posting but Ive been consistent that Im not a big fan of Carmelo's game though he has certainly shown some improvements over the years in some facets. Regardless, I was against giving him the max and felt in lieu of maxing out a Carmelo it would've been better to let him walk or trade him, bottom out next year and then use the high pick + cap room in the summer of 2015 to put a team together that was 100% players Phil and Fisher handpicked.

And that's the thing, they clearly did not choose that path. It actually would've been a very quick almost total rebuild and its a rarity that a team has that luxury. The Knicks situation was not dire at all had Carmelo walked. Anyone saying it was was ignoring reality.

OK, so this is where what I read people posting and what happened not jibe. 1) Phil came here under the pretext he would have 100% autonomy over basketball decisions so jettisoning Carmelo would certainly qualify as something Phil could do 2) Phil came here to the Knicks, by all accounts a laughingstock franchise for the past decade and a half after a career filled with _nothing_ but successes at every stop along the way. It is quite a legacy and accordingly he is a very rich man. I have a very, VERY had time believing Phil Jackson came to the Knicks to simply crack open the MSG vault and swim around like Scrooge McDuck. For one, it would go against the everything he's claimed he's about all these years and secondly and more importantly coming here to be Dolan's gimp would be the ultimate shytepile on top of his legacy. I think Phil values his legacy, which again is untarnished, a whoooole lot. Even moreso than money to some degree.

So logically it follows that if Phil did not want Carmelo back, even at the max, it would signify that Phil's autonomy was overriden by Dolan, a mere what 4-5 months after being handed the keys and told to go nuts? No, I think the moment Dolan meddles Phil is outta here on the next plane to LAX. He doesnt seem like the kinda guy who's gonna be taking orders from Jim Dolan and secondly the moment Dolan meddles Phil knows he can kiss his legacy of doing nothing but winning GOODBYE because it means the Knicks are about to make very bad basketball decisions.

Thus, I can only conclude that no matter what I or anyone thinks about Carmelo Anthony's game, PHIL is taking a chance on making him the centerpiece of the makeover Phil is conducting on this team. Now, I can only assume Phil thinks he can mentor him and make him a better player NOT that Phil is holding his nose or being coerced into re-signing him, or tolerating Carmelo (you said "sheer torture"), or what have you. He seems to genuinely believe he can change him for the better.

Now can he? Will he? Will it work? Who knows. But we do know Phil just gambled his equivalent of an undefeated record on it. I think that tells us a lot about what Phil is thinking. And, sure, he could be spectacularly wrong, too. Im not saying Phil is infallible or a god or something. Just that the notion of Phil not wanting Carmelo back is most definitely _not_ accurate.

I do not think it is a gamble from Phil side.
If Melo will cooperate and evolve into franchise player role everybody wins and Phis will have credit of doing no one was able to do with Melo.
If Melo will not change his iso-me-first-volume-shooter-stats ways this will be very clear to all bbal world.
With Phil around Malo has no place to hide.
If anything signing this giant contract with Knicks is Melo ultimate gambling...
Can he put himself in the sane group with MJ and Kobe? Can he even get close?

gunsnewing wrote:If he fails he is untradeable at that price. He has the power to get Phil & Derek fired if he's not happy with his role

Well... With about 100 days till preseason it makes sense that bitching about the HOF scorers contract take precedence.

dk7th wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

dk7th wrote:what truth do you speak of? do you understand that the real world has mostly to do with realpolitik? jackson's statement was transparent doubletalk! i don't mind because he is innocent until proven guilty. plus he has to deal with carmelo... sheer torture. and does fisher have the stones to challenge anthony?

OK, this is what I need help understanding because Ive posed this question in other threads and gotten no answers. Ill preface this by saying, dk, that while I can't work up the energy to hate Carmelo personally or whatever, AS A BASKETBALL PLAYER SIGNED UNDER THE CONSTRAINTS OF A SALARY CAP, Ive _never_ been a big fan. Ive lurked on this site for a long while but only recently started posting but Ive been consistent that Im not a big fan of Carmelo's game though he has certainly shown some improvements over the years in some facets. Regardless, I was against giving him the max and felt in lieu of maxing out a Carmelo it would've been better to let him walk or trade him, bottom out next year and then use the high pick + cap room in the summer of 2015 to put a team together that was 100% players Phil and Fisher handpicked.

And that's the thing, they clearly did not choose that path. It actually would've been a very quick almost total rebuild and its a rarity that a team has that luxury. The Knicks situation was not dire at all had Carmelo walked. Anyone saying it was was ignoring reality.

OK, so this is where what I read people posting and what happened not jibe. 1) Phil came here under the pretext he would have 100% autonomy over basketball decisions so jettisoning Carmelo would certainly qualify as something Phil could do 2) Phil came here to the Knicks, by all accounts a laughingstock franchise for the past decade and a half after a career filled with _nothing_ but successes at every stop along the way. It is quite a legacy and accordingly he is a very rich man. I have a very, VERY had time believing Phil Jackson came to the Knicks to simply crack open the MSG vault and swim around like Scrooge McDuck. For one, it would go against the everything he's claimed he's about all these years and secondly and more importantly coming here to be Dolan's gimp would be the ultimate shytepile on top of his legacy. I think Phil values his legacy, which again is untarnished, a whoooole lot. Even moreso than money to some degree.

So logically it follows that if Phil did not want Carmelo back, even at the max, it would signify that Phil's autonomy was overriden by Dolan, a mere what 4-5 months after being handed the keys and told to go nuts? No, I think the moment Dolan meddles Phil is outta here on the next plane to LAX. He doesnt seem like the kinda guy who's gonna be taking orders from Jim Dolan and secondly the moment Dolan meddles Phil knows he can kiss his legacy of doing nothing but winning GOODBYE because it means the Knicks are about to make very bad basketball decisions.

Thus, I can only conclude that no matter what I or anyone thinks about Carmelo Anthony's game, PHIL is taking a chance on making him the centerpiece of the makeover Phil is conducting on this team. Now, I can only assume Phil thinks he can mentor him and make him a better player NOT that Phil is holding his nose or being coerced into re-signing him, or tolerating Carmelo (you said "sheer torture"), or what have you. He seems to genuinely believe he can change him for the better.

Now can he? Will he? Will it work? Who knows. But we do know Phil just gambled his equivalent of an undefeated record on it. I think that tells us a lot about what Phil is thinking. And, sure, he could be spectacularly wrong, too. Im not saying Phil is infallible or a god or something. Just that the notion of Phil not wanting Carmelo back is most definitely _not_ accurate.

i appreciate your effort at writing this post. the bold is the essence of the matter. the obvious paradigm has been set with two shooting guards with eleven championships between them-- jordan's being the more impressive because shaq is also prety much a top-ten player. i am curious to see what jackson and fisher conclude about where anthony's center of gravity should end up being. does he occupy the wing's role? if he is truly multi-faceted should we not expect him to be able to play two, perhaps three frontcourt positions?

i have hopes even now, in spite of my distaste and contempt for anthony, that he nonetheless will finally figure out what it takes to be a winner, if fisher and jackson have a way to make anthony follow instructions.

all that said-- let's talk money for a second-- i still believe that the risk of signing melo to this ridiculous contract outweighs the reward. and this is why it is important to ear the words that jackson speaks. yes actions speaker louder than words.... they do not however, drown those words out, not n this case.

DK: Thanks for responding.

I have high hopes as well. We shall see. And yeah, we also have to factor in Phil's ego as Im sure even with all the zen stuff it is quite assuredly enormous. He has always had success getting to players and he may just be uber confident he can and will do it again.

In regards to the last paragraph of your response. Phil could also be making the gamble with some sort of internal projections or knowledge or educated guessing that the salary cap is set to rise appreciably essentially making Carmelo's contract less onerous going forward which somewhat mitigates its enormity. It could be that if Phil figures the risks are high he will have enough leeway later down the line lets say if the cap rises to $80,000,000 or above which would mean Anthony's contract is only around a quarter of the cap.

The players union is already advising the players to prepare for a strike after the 5th year opt on which is included in the contract. The opt out which I believe is concurrent with the TV deal being renewed at all estimates for an astronomically high amount. But who knows.

arkrud wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:If he fails he is untradeable at that price. He has the power to get Phil & Derek fired if he's not happy with his role

I disagree. Joe Johnson was trade able.

They will have to make Melo so uncomfortable in NY that he will request the trade.
Seems very unlikely regardless of how Melo and team will perform.
I do not think Melo cares about how NY will play and what they will achieve together.
He already get all he wants. Why bother?

alwaysaknick wrote:

tkf wrote:

arkrud wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:If he fails he is untradeable at that price. He has the power to get Phil & Derek fired if he's not happy with his role

I disagree. Joe Johnson was trade able.

They will have to make Melo so uncomfortable in NY that he will request the trade.
Seems very unlikely regardless of how Melo and team will perform.
I do not think Melo cares about how NY will play and what they will achieve together.
He already get all he wants. Why bother?

if winning was what he was really about, he would have went to chicago... he is here to milk everything out of NY, and winning is comes a distant second to everything else he has going on..

I believe that Melo honestly says he believes in Phil and that Phil can build something. I think he loves ny and also think he wants to win (who don't?) But just keep his mouth shut on “I don’t care about the money” because it ruins the whole thing.

Are you sure you are on the right forum...
I think www.UltimateBulls.com is still available, perhaps you can start a cool new fan site where you can actually root for the team.

nyvector16 wrote:Kind of a circular argument to state that if he really cared about winning he would be on the Bulls.
So basically if he is a Knicks he is a loser who only cares about money, if he is on the Bulls he is a champion.

Are you sure you are on the right forum...
I think www.UltimateBulls.com is still available, perhaps you can start a cool new fan site where you can actually root for the team.

Yeah, we already have an UltimateHornets.com candidate practically signed up.
We went through the Nuggets phase, the Pacers phase, now it's the Bulls.

True Knick Fans love every other team in it's proper turn...