smackeddog wrote:Ken Berger is reporting Phil is targeting Tyler Ennis or P.J. Hairston if the Knicks successfully acquire a first rounder. Interestingly, both are projected within the Bulls picks range, though also may be there for OKC's 21st pick.

smackeddog wrote:Ken Berger is reporting Phil is targeting Tyler Ennis or P.J. Hairston if the Knicks successfully acquire a first rounder. Interestingly, both are projected within the Bulls picks range, though also may be there for OKC's 21st pick.

If we trade Tyson for the 21st and 29th picks, both of those guys would still be around.

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Have people really looked at the numbers of this?

Let's say the amnesty Boozer and trade Dunleavy plus Toney Snell; that puts there cap around 41.4M. Those moves alone create space.

That saves them $21.2 million and puts the cap at the $41.4 million you're suggesting. BUT, you're not factoring in the cap holds for their vacant roster spots and the cap hold for their 1st round picks. With Carlos Boozer, Mike Dunleavy and Tony Snell gone, the Bulls would only have 5 guys under contract; each vacant spot is $500,000 and there are 10 vacant roster spots which would result in a $5 million cap hold. On top of that, the 16th and 19th picks should each make about $1.75 million in their first year, times 2, would be a little more than a $3 million cap hold. You add those two cap holds together and deduct it from the $21.2 million that they are below the cap and the Bulls would only have $13 million to offer Melo in his first year. The worst part is that after they sign him, they'd only have a $3 million exception to sign a player of consequence. And you think that's realistic?

Cap holds are used only up to the 12th roster spot, not the 15th. Teams are required to have 12 players on their rosters. It looks like they could give Melo a 4 year deal starting at around $18 mil if they took the approach Yellowboy was suggesting. With annual raises, I think that would be around 4 years, $80 mil.

Even then, their best offer would be $14.75 million in the first year of Melo's deal, and would only have 5 other players under contract, with no other means to improve the team than a $3 million exception. That's not exactly a winning strategy and if it comes down to that, I think he'll end up in Houston.

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Have people really looked at the numbers of this?

Let's say the amnesty Boozer and trade Dunleavy plus Toney Snell; that puts there cap around 41.4M. Those moves alone create space.

That saves them $21.2 million and puts the cap at the $41.4 million you're suggesting. BUT, you're not factoring in the cap holds for their vacant roster spots and the cap hold for their 1st round picks. With Carlos Boozer, Mike Dunleavy and Tony Snell gone, the Bulls would only have 5 guys under contract; each vacant spot is $500,000 and there are 10 vacant roster spots which would result in a $5 million cap hold. On top of that, the 16th and 19th picks should each make about $1.75 million in their first year, times 2, would be a little more than a $3 million cap hold. You add those two cap holds together and deduct it from the $21.2 million that they are below the cap and the Bulls would only have $13 million to offer Melo in his first year. The worst part is that after they sign him, they'd only have a $3 million exception to sign a player of consequence. And you think that's realistic?

Cap holds are used only up to the 12th roster spot, not the 15th. Teams are required to have 12 players on their rosters. It looks like they could give Melo a 4 year deal starting at around $18 mil if they took the approach Yellowboy was suggesting. With annual raises, I think that would be around 4 years, $80 mil.

Even then, their best offer would be $14.75 million in the first year of Melo's deal, and would only have 5 other players under contract, with no other means to improve the team than a $3 million exception. That's not exactly a winning strategy and if it comes down to that, I think he'll end up in Houston.

You said it was $17 mil earlier, and that was when you thought the cap holds were through the 15th spot. With 3 less $500K cap holds, wouldn't that make the starting salary $18.5 mil?
He'd have a much easier path to the finals in Chicago. Maybe the idea of peaking at another WCF appearance doesn't appeal to him. Maybe he thinks (like with Miami) plenty of good players will sign for the vet min to join him, Rose, and Noah.

From the Tribune:

Thus, the Bulls might have to sign Anthony, whom everyone from coach Tom Thibodeau to Rose is on board with adding, via outright salary-cap space. Using the amnesty provision on Boozer only nets them roughly $11 million of space, depending on where the cap is set July 1. The Bulls would have to sell off other pieces for nothing in return to create more cap space and would prefer obviously to keep Taj Gibson. So would Anthony should he land with the Bulls.

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Have people really looked at the numbers of this?

Let's say the amnesty Boozer and trade Dunleavy plus Toney Snell; that puts there cap around 41.4M. Those moves alone create space.

That saves them $21.2 million and puts the cap at the $41.4 million you're suggesting. BUT, you're not factoring in the cap holds for their vacant roster spots and the cap hold for their 1st round picks. With Carlos Boozer, Mike Dunleavy and Tony Snell gone, the Bulls would only have 5 guys under contract; each vacant spot is $500,000 and there are 10 vacant roster spots which would result in a $5 million cap hold. On top of that, the 16th and 19th picks should each make about $1.75 million in their first year, times 2, would be a little more than a $3 million cap hold. You add those two cap holds together and deduct it from the $21.2 million that they are below the cap and the Bulls would only have $13 million to offer Melo in his first year. The worst part is that after they sign him, they'd only have a $3 million exception to sign a player of consequence. And you think that's realistic?

Cap holds are used only up to the 12th roster spot, not the 15th. Teams are required to have 12 players on their rosters. It looks like they could give Melo a 4 year deal starting at around $18 mil if they took the approach Yellowboy was suggesting. With annual raises, I think that would be around 4 years, $80 mil.

Even then, their best offer would be $14.75 million in the first year of Melo's deal, and would only have 5 other players under contract, with no other means to improve the team than a $3 million exception. That's not exactly a winning strategy and if it comes down to that, I think he'll end up in Houston.

You said it was $17 mil earlier, and that was when you thought the cap holds were through the 15th spot. With 3 less $500K cap holds, wouldn't that make the starting salary $18.5 mil?
He'd have a much easier path to the finals in Chicago. Maybe the idea of peaking at another WCF appearance doesn't appeal to him. Maybe he thinks (like with Miami) plenty of good players will sign for the vet min to join him, Rose, and Noah.

From the Tribune:

Thus, the Bulls might have to sign Anthony, whom everyone from coach Tom Thibodeau to Rose is on board with adding, via outright salary-cap space. Using the amnesty provision on Boozer only nets them roughly $11 million of space, depending on where the cap is set July 1. The Bulls would have to sell off other pieces for nothing in return to create more cap space and would prefer obviously to keep Taj Gibson. So would Anthony should he land with the Bulls.

Right; Yellow's plan was also to trade other players and the current 1st round picks for future picks. IDK. Maybe Nard's $17 mil figure was wrong though.

I made that initial estimation toward the bottom half of page 2 of this thread. By the first half of page 3, I remembered to factor in the cap holds for the vacant roster spots and draft picks. This thread is now 7 pages long, with you posting consistently during that stretch. Why have you chosen to ignore these corrections? I've even responded directly to you and your scenario, with the proper calculations and the fact is that the Bulls WILL NOT be able to sign Melo outright unless they gut their team. So let's drop the "maybe NardDog was wrong" crap and just admit that the Bulls need us to do a sign and trade. I'm not sure why you are being so stubborn about admitting that despite you being a "numbers guy" because make no mistake, the numbers point to the Bulls needing a sign and trade to get Melo.

Bonn1997 wrote:I have other things in my life and didn't remember every one of your posts. I went back to the first estimate of yours I could find. Maybe you should delete that post if it's inaccurate.

That'd be all good and well if I didn't have a response beforehand that should've cleared all of that up.

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I have other things in my life and didn't remember every one of your posts. I went back to the first estimate of yours I could find. Maybe you should delete that post if it's inaccurate.

That'd be all good and well if I didn't have a response beforehand that should've cleared all of that up.

As long as you leave that post there and as long as people don't memorize all your posts, you should expect people to cite it. They'll go to the first number they can find. You can also just edit the post. Sorry, I'm moving to a new apartment and working on many tasks. I remember your (and other people's posts) for about 5 seconds after I read them.

We're all busy with ****. It's also why I find it surprising that you would feel the need to delve back 6 pages, for something I stated explicitly to you today. Whatever the case, I just wanted to make my point clear and don't want this to become an epically long exchange about something that is hardly tangent to the topic. Good luck with the moving though; it can be a bitch. Hopefully you got some spare hands to help.

1- CA ??? (if extending, assuming he opts out)

2- Felton (player option) So our best chances are either moving him with CA or Tyson Chandler/Iman Shumpert and/or Tim Hardaway JR/JR Smith

Next season, he is on contract for $4,360,000 and a player option in 2015 $4,540,000, that he likely will NOT opt out of unless we insure a future deal like a 3 year 6m deal in 2015 which would help the team to utilize the cap space for FA's to sign
In any case, it would be an *under table deal* that would be slightly more than the vet min, that he probably will have trouble receiving as he continues to get older and physically regress

There is also the possibly that he might *retire* with the stress on the divorce so the wife would not be able to get *HALF of his earnings of his contract*
Then have a similar role to Larry Johnson/John Starks, under the divorce, the ex wife/lawyer, might not be able to receive half of his earnings in

Then there is also the possibly that under the law, Felton could go to jail and lose his NBA contract, similar to how a WR that shot himself with a gun, that was a Giant, aka, Plaxico Burress

3- JR Smith (could opt out, especially if he has a decent year, regaining his physical abilities and showing the discipline and guidance that Jason Kidd/Rasheed Wallace/Kurt Thomas/Camby attributed to him winning the 6th man of the year, along with regaining his physical abilities in speed/athleticism, in addition to his penetration/facilitating/ ability to finish, defend/rebound and higher IQ play)
(if we are unable to trade him this summer), a deal would be negating any value of at least 1 1st round pick for Felton in terms of value) we likely will be forced to buy them out, hopefully resulting in LESS than their player options that he would make

4- Pablo - As for Pablo, we are probably best to buy him out, allowing him to retire, go to another team on a vet min contract, hopefully we save a roster spot but Pablo forgoes his player option, leaving us a bit more financial flexibility, in which to target future players with, I doubt Spur's would even give us 1 of their future LATE 2nd rounders for Pablo though they could give him a 1 year vet min deal if Duncan doesn't retire with Coach Poppavich

5- Iman Shumpert (RFA) (if not traded, could result as a restricted FREE AGENT, which could result in a Laundry Fields type of deal that we likely will not match)

6- Tim Hardaway JR (though only 1.25m)

7- 2015 1st round pick (contract depending on how we do NEXT season, if we win the lottery and it is a TOP pick, it could be a good/bad thing but time will tell, though we can likely trade it but many teams would be trying to preserve cap space) Even a team like Philly could really make some noise, basically with NO ONE on the books, they could likely sign 4 ALL STAR caliber players in addition to MCW and 7 of their draft picks owned this year (though some players may need to be traded)

RonRon wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Have people really looked at the numbers of this?

Let's say the amnesty Boozer and trade Dunleavy plus Toney Snell; that puts there cap around 41.4M. Those moves alone create space.

That saves them $21.2 million and puts the cap at the $41.4 million you're suggesting. BUT, you're not factoring in the cap holds for their vacant roster spots and the cap hold for their 1st round picks. With Carlos Boozer, Mike Dunleavy and Tony Snell gone, the Bulls would only have 5 guys under contract; each vacant spot is $500,000 and there are 10 vacant roster spots which would result in a $5 million cap hold. On top of that, the 16th and 19th picks should each make about $1.75 million in their first year, times 2, would be a little more than a $3 million cap hold. You add those two cap holds together and deduct it from the $21.2 million that they are below the cap and the Bulls would only have $13 million to offer Melo in his first year. The worst part is that after they sign him, they'd only have a $3 million exception to sign a player of consequence. And you think that's realistic?

Cap holds are used only up to the 12th roster spot, not the 15th. Teams are required to have 12 players on their rosters. It looks like they could give Melo a 4 year deal starting at around $18 mil if they took the approach Yellowboy was suggesting. With annual raises, I think that would be around 4 years, $80 mil.

Even then, their best offer would be $14.75 million in the first year of Melo's deal, and would only have 5 other players under contract, with no other means to improve the team than a $3 million exception. That's not exactly a winning strategy and if it comes down to that, I think he'll end up in Houston.

You said it was $17 mil earlier, and that was when you thought the cap holds were through the 15th spot. With 3 less $500K cap holds, wouldn't that make the starting salary $18.5 mil?
He'd have a much easier path to the finals in Chicago. Maybe the idea of peaking at another WCF appearance doesn't appeal to him. Maybe he thinks (like with Miami) plenty of good players will sign for the vet min to join him, Rose, and Noah.

That's because I was still trying to figure out all of the working parts involved in this which is pretty dynamic. And mind you, people have been throwing around different scenarios that carry their own unique breakdown financially. That initial figure I calculated for your hypothetical was probably not factoring in the cap holds associated with the draft picks, which you would keep. When you adjust for them and the other factors, it only amounts to $14.75.

CHI's payroll is at $63 million, the same as the cap, so any contract dump would result in cap space. Amnesty Boozer, that removes $17 million; dump Dunleavy ($3 million) and Snell ($1.2 million) would result in them being $21.2 million below the cap hold. But when you factor in that they'd have 7 vacant roster spots that would result in a $3.5 million cap hold and an additional +$3 million cap hold for their two first round picks. Add those two and subtract them from the $21.2 million and you end up with about $14.75 million in viable cap space. We both know Melo isn't signing a first year contract for that. Winning matters but so does money for him. This is why it makes so much more sense for Chicago to give us what we want, none of which has been core to their success or carries any long-term repercussions. Are $21 million in contracts you don't want anyway, Mirotic, Butler and two first round picks really worth more than an All-NBA player, Taj Gibson, Mike Dunleavy, Iman Shumpert (if they want him), your full MLE, your LLE, a player you could get at $2.1 million, another player you could get at $1.1 million and all your future draft picks?

You really think with the leverage we have with CA *close to none*, Chicago would give ALL those players, draft picks, and assets you are suggesting?
I think a lot of your trades are VERY one sided, not even realistic for the other teams, while I hope we could get all those assets, we would be the only team that would pay that high of a price for a player of Melo's caliber at his age
Our best chance in getting maximum value for CA was during last seasons deadline or prior, when we did have some leverage, but not after the horrible year we had last year in addition to his age and contract CA insist on acquiring

While I agree with you that the owner is CHEAP in Chicago, they will not give up the farm unless it is Lebron James or Kevin Durant, definitely not for CA at his age
They would much rather AMNESTY Boozer (while another team WILL PICK up his contract as a 1 year rental)
Make small trades like they did with Korver to get rid of Dunleavy and probably would even look to trade Derrick Rose before they give us all those assets for CA
If they traded ALL THOSE assets for CA, it would defeat the purpose, leaving little to NO talent on their roster in order to contend

I like Taj Gibson a lot, however, we are preserving cap space in HOPES of a future trio or at least 2x FRANCHISE ALL STAR's
And Gibson's contract in addition to all of the contracts of all of our contracts in 2015, it would limit our chances in landing a trio or 2 ALL STAR type talents
I think we would look to move him if we do acquire him, though I think Chicago would be looking to keep him as their PF/C, even possibly start him along unless Tony Snell makes a huge progress towards being similar to Kawaii Leanard that they hoped when they drafted him

Only Dolan is stupid and ignorant enough to think that would allow them to get *better* along with many Knick fans'

And you can only have the LLE if you are under the cap, able to use it every other year, they last used it on Belineli 2 seasons ago
If they are over the cap which is estimated to be 5m over, they would either have the full 5m + MLE or 3.2m MLE but NOT both the MLE and LLE

If Chicago doesn't want to indulge our requests, then they can kick rocks. Like I've said a dozen times already, they'd need to dump more than half their roster and would basically be rolling into next season with Derrick Rose (if he is even healthy), Joakim Noah, Melo, a player paid $3 million/yr and some minimum salaried dudes.

More likely than not, Melo realizes how impractical that team is and takes his services to Houston, where he will be able to sign there outright (when dump trade Lin and Asik) AND maintain a supporting cast around him that are pretty good and still on their rookie/minimum deals (see Terrence Jones, Patrick Beverly, Jordan Hamilton, Chandler Parsons, etc.). Quite frankly, I'd prefer Melo walk to Houston than have the Bulls give us a bull**** draft pick for the privilege of paying Carlos Boozer.

NardDogNation wrote:

RonRon wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Have people really looked at the numbers of this?

Let's say the amnesty Boozer and trade Dunleavy plus Toney Snell; that puts there cap around 41.4M. Those moves alone create space.

That saves them $21.2 million and puts the cap at the $41.4 million you're suggesting. BUT, you're not factoring in the cap holds for their vacant roster spots and the cap hold for their 1st round picks. With Carlos Boozer, Mike Dunleavy and Tony Snell gone, the Bulls would only have 5 guys under contract; each vacant spot is $500,000 and there are 10 vacant roster spots which would result in a $5 million cap hold. On top of that, the 16th and 19th picks should each make about $1.75 million in their first year, times 2, would be a little more than a $3 million cap hold. You add those two cap holds together and deduct it from the $21.2 million that they are below the cap and the Bulls would only have $13 million to offer Melo in his first year. The worst part is that after they sign him, they'd only have a $3 million exception to sign a player of consequence. And you think that's realistic?

Cap holds are used only up to the 12th roster spot, not the 15th. Teams are required to have 12 players on their rosters. It looks like they could give Melo a 4 year deal starting at around $18 mil if they took the approach Yellowboy was suggesting. With annual raises, I think that would be around 4 years, $80 mil.

Even then, their best offer would be $14.75 million in the first year of Melo's deal, and would only have 5 other players under contract, with no other means to improve the team than a $3 million exception. That's not exactly a winning strategy and if it comes down to that, I think he'll end up in Houston.

You said it was $17 mil earlier, and that was when you thought the cap holds were through the 15th spot. With 3 less $500K cap holds, wouldn't that make the starting salary $18.5 mil?
He'd have a much easier path to the finals in Chicago. Maybe the idea of peaking at another WCF appearance doesn't appeal to him. Maybe he thinks (like with Miami) plenty of good players will sign for the vet min to join him, Rose, and Noah.

That's because I was still trying to figure out all of the working parts involved in this which is pretty dynamic. And mind you, people have been throwing around different scenarios that carry their own unique breakdown financially. That initial figure I calculated for your hypothetical was probably not factoring in the cap holds associated with the draft picks, which you would keep. When you adjust for them and the other factors, it only amounts to $14.75.

CHI's payroll is at $63 million, the same as the cap, so any contract dump would result in cap space. Amnesty Boozer, that removes $17 million; dump Dunleavy ($3 million) and Snell ($1.2 million) would result in them being $21.2 million below the cap hold. But when you factor in that they'd have 7 vacant roster spots that would result in a $3.5 million cap hold and an additional +$3 million cap hold for their two first round picks. Add those two and subtract them from the $21.2 million and you end up with about $14.75 million in viable cap space. We both know Melo isn't signing a first year contract for that. Winning matters but so does money for him. This is why it makes so much more sense for Chicago to give us what we want, none of which has been core to their success or carries any long-term repercussions. Are $21 million in contracts you don't want anyway, Mirotic, Butler and two first round picks really worth more than an All-NBA player, Taj Gibson, Mike Dunleavy, Iman Shumpert (if they want him), your full MLE, your LLE, a player you could get at $2.1 million, another player you could get at $1.1 million and all your future draft picks?

You really think with the leverage we have with CA *close to none*, Chicago would give ALL those players, draft picks, and assets you are suggesting?
I think a lot of your trades are VERY one sided, not even realistic for the other teams, while I hope we could get all those assets, we would be the only team that would pay that high of a price for a player of Melo's caliber at his age
Our best chance in getting maximum value for CA was during last seasons deadline or prior, when we did have some leverage, but not after the horrible year we had last year in addition to his age and contract CA insist on acquiring

While I agree with you that the owner is CHEAP in Chicago, they will not give up the farm unless it is Lebron James or Kevin Durant, definitely not for CA at his age
They would much rather AMNESTY Boozer (while another team WILL PICK up his contract as a 1 year rental)
Make small trades like they did with Korver to get rid of Dunleavy and probably would even look to trade Derrick Rose before they give us all those assets for CA
If they traded ALL THOSE assets for CA, it would defeat the purpose, leaving little to NO talent on their roster in order to contend

I like Taj Gibson a lot, however, we are preserving cap space in HOPES of a future trio or at least 2x FRANCHISE ALL STAR's
And Gibson's contract in addition to all of the contracts of all of our contracts in 2015, it would limit our chances in landing a trio or 2 ALL STAR type talents
I think we would look to move him if we do acquire him, though I think Chicago would be looking to keep him as their PF/C, even possibly start him along unless Tony Snell makes a huge progress towards being similar to Kawaii Leanard that they hoped when they drafted him

Only Dolan is stupid and ignorant enough to think that would allow them to get *better* along with many Knick fans'

And you can only have the LLE if you are under the cap, able to use it every other year, they last used it on Belineli 2 seasons ago
If they are over the cap which is estimated to be 5m over, they would either have the full 5m + MLE or 3.2m MLE but NOT both the MLE and LLE

If Chicago doesn't want to indulge our requests, then they can kick rocks. Like I've said a dozen times already, they'd need to dump more than half their roster and would basically be rolling into next season with Derrick Rose (if he is even healthy), Joakim Noah, Melo, a player paid $3 million/yr and some minimum salaried dudes.

More likely than not, Melo realizes how impractical that team is and takes his services to Houston, where he will be able to sign there outright (when dump trade Lin and Asik) AND maintain a supporting cast around him that are pretty good and still on their rookie/minimum deals (see Terrence Jones, Patrick Beverly, Jordan Hamilton, Chandler Parsons, etc.). Quite frankly, I'd prefer Melo walk to Houston than have the Bulls give us a bull**** draft pick for the privilege of paying Carlos Boozer.

It is your request, not Phil Jacksons or the Knicks
We overpaid for Melo, NO TEAM is going to give that kind of package back for him 3 years later, that is the type of value you are asking back for...

And that is why I feel Houston's package, though would be less than Bulls, would be more ideal since he would be moving out WEST and not to our competitor

Put your feelings aside, either you get something for Melo or let him walk, you really would rather let him walk for NOTHING??

Honestly, if he is willing to take less, his best choice would be to sign with a team with Lebron like

Suns
Philly

even

Cleveland
Dallas

or

Heat (if they can come up with something to satisfy all players in Lebron, Bosh, Wade ( as he has regressed due to age/injuries, about a 5year 50m deal instead of a 2 year 45m deal that he is schedule to make)
Orlando
Boston

Bobcats
Detroit

by himself to one of the teams above without giving up anything (or limited assets in sign and trade so the team would give us back LIMITED assets and a trade exemption like Lebron/Bosh did in 2010