actofgod wrote:First link is the new york times, that's as left-leaning as you can get and still be considered credible. Yes it is a report, but I'm quite sure that Think Progress is not going to do an expose` on whether or not the alleged southern strategy was a lie or not. The fact is, only right-leaning outlets would even be interested in discussing such history. I'm not wrong on any point, and I have yet to see you call out someone linking mother jones articles or other explicitly obvious left-leaning publications. It would seem apparent that you are engaging in incredible confirmation bias in your cherry picking what sources are credible and which are not.

History is documented, the links I provided are not opinion pieces. They are backed by historical figures, documents, election results and numbers. These are not up for interpretation. if World Net Daily ran an article that said grass was green, guess what? Grass would still be green.

If all you can do is attack the source, you are showin gme that you, too, have nothing.

I am absolutely calling you out on your sources and the way you presented your arguments. You want to start your posting with name-calling and other nonsense and you have shown exactly the nature of your posting: ground zero and you will convince absolutely no one of your points. If you can't do better, please stop posting in this thread.

History is full of interpretation.

My take was LBJ and Nixon were personally predjudiced but did what was right for the country. They might not have been morally motivated but compromised for the greater good.

Maybe we'd like to think many of our leaders did act from their conscience and from a moral place but its not always the case.

Im not convinced Nixon civil rights position was from the heart as much as practical for his ambitions. Granted, if the conscience of the country wanted a president to further civil rights, does it really matter?

Did JFK policies of peace so harmful to the industrial complex that if enacted would have put the economy in a tailspin that it would have weakend both our military and finacial ability? Was his pain pills to help his back influence his thought process to the point he was compromising? IM not saying these are good reasons to blow his head off!!!

LBJ's "Great Society" marked the end of the "New Deal" era of politics and many social institutions of "Modern Liberalism" was installed. Amid great domestic turmoil he withdrew from reelecton facing a tough campaign. Robert Kennedy, not wanting to challange the incumbant jumped in to challange Eugene Mcarthy and Hubert Humphry. After a victory in the california primary he was killed.

The ideals of the Kennedy boys were idealistic but not necessarily fiscally attractive longer term. Who killed them? Surhan Surhan was a Palistian sympatizer and perhaps conspiracy theorists think could not have been able to act alone. In time we understand this as an act of "Terror"? Did the industrual complex kill another kennedy? IN an age we questin the fiscal endurance of "entitlements" I wonder how our ecnomy would have handled it. We spend very heavy instead on military. Did we win the cold war because of it? If weakend would the Soviet Block been more brazen in its manifest? They were different times and the threat was legit.

More questions than answers.

Nixluva's history lessons might not be fully balanced, but they tell an ugly american story. I would encourage everyone to read for themselves and think for themselves. I think "Actofgod" to come on that strong would be seen as not contributory to a conversation. I like reading the articles he posted but use such publicatons as fodder to fuel my own theory or questions and not to substantiate an agenda.

Most of you know, I am very much a centrist in many areas.

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:I'm less concerned about words as I am about systemic racism and unequal treatment of poor and minorities. Blacks always played by the rules and got played for suckers cuz there has always been an organized White power structure working to keep them down. I used to laugh at the idea of "The Man" but now I'm not laughing cuz I've seen it.

Down here the city of Macon is 60% Black and yet they can't achieve power because the forces against them are secretive and organized and they keep pretending to be on the side of the Blacks but things NEVER get better. I've seen the Black politicians try to build coalitions with the Whites but every time they get took. The money in town always ends up on the White side of town for new construction etc. You have to see it to believe it.

Unlike the north the slave holder families and former slaves who have the same name still live in the same towns. They still have the same wealth gap. A small group of White families still own most of the property and businesses.

How will this change? Soon the minorities will out number the whites. Will this change the balance of power?

How will the mexican american experience similar long term issues or is this specific to the remnants of slavery?

Do you not think it is better now than it was 10 years ago? Are we moving forward?

It's never been about numbers. In the South there was a time when Blacks outnumbered Whites but that didn't lead to a violent overthrow because any small revolt was met with overwhelming violence and even stricter laws. Even now the richest 1% are able to use there wealth to rig the system. Most of the politicians are wealthy businessmen with all the connections and control. This is how they're as to maintain the status quo. Black unemployment has always been double that of whites. The only time there's been full employment for Blacks was in slavery.

There is no simple answer to the problem because the cause of the problem is complex as it's been developed over the last few hundred years!!! It will take generations to overcome the extreme levels of interference and obstruction of progress for Blacks. Every time a leader emerges they've been either killed or severely thwarted in their efforts to Improve the lives of minorities. History proves this over and over.

I've taught both of my sons as much as I can. My youngest just graduated and is already employed in his new career. I try to mentor any young men I can but the system is so big it's gonna take a massive effort. I like what Obama and Eric Holder are doing about prison sentencing. The whole move to lower stop n frisk will help and decriminalizing pot will help. Still gonna be a long road.

Thanks for your response. Its really sad that there seems to be no end in sight.

I have another question for you, do many people in the south believe that there is a jewish conspiracy to keep blacks oppressed? I have heard that from many of my black co workers and I find it troubling that there seems to be a big disconnect on so many levels between black and jews. We our so similar in so many ways and its horrible that there seems to be so much friction.

Perhaps the fact that Sterling was a old jewish bigot maybe there can be more dialogue and awareness of racism and anti antisemitism between black and jews.

There is actually a very strange history when it comes to the Jewish Community and Blacks. There were in fact Jewish Slave Holders, but that doesn't define the relationship over the centuries. In terms of Black and Jewish relations during the post Civil War Period and later during the Civil Rights struggle Jewish leaders were very helpful in trying to helps Blacks gain education opportunities with the Freedmens Bureau.

The widely publicized lynching of Leo Frank, a Jew, in Georgia in 1915 by a mob of southerners caused many Jews to "become acutely conscious of the similarities and differences between themselves and blacks" and accelerated the sense of solidarity between Jews and blacks,[6] but the trial also pitted Jews against blacks because Frank's defense attorneys tried to ascribe guilt to a black janitor, Jim Conley, and called Conley a "dirty, filthy, black, drunken, lying, nigger."[7]
In the early 20th century, Jewish daily and weekly publications were preoccupied with violence against blacks, and often compared the anti-black violence in the South to pogroms—this preoccupation was motivated by principles of justice, and by a desire to change racist policies in United States. During the first few decades of the 20th century, the leaders of American Jewry expended time, influence and their economic resources for black endeavors—civil rights, philanthropy, social service, organizing—and historian Hasia Diner notes that "they made sure that their actions were well publicized" as part of an effort to demonstrate increasing Jewish political clout.[9] Julius Rosenwald was a Jewish philanthropist who donated a large part of his fortune to supporting education of blacks in the south.[10] Jews played a major role in the founding of the NAACP, which was founded in 1909. Jews involved in the NAACP included Joel Spingarn (the first chairman), Arthur Spingarn, Henry Moskowitz, and—more recently—Jack Greenberg.[11]

It seems to me that once the Civil Rights period was over that many of the Jewish Leaders walked away from the Black struggle since they could do so and blend into the larger society much easier than Blacks who by their very skin could not blend at all. Moreover, Jewish culture promotes more unity than is found in the Black community and there is strength in that unity. In the 70's Blacks started to harbor negative views of Jews who were more successful and separatist culturally. A sort of Jealousy set in and a bit of Contempt for Blacks on behalf of Jews set in.

IMO Blacks could learn a LOT from Jews in terms of not only survival but succeeding in life. As i've pointed out many times in this thread, because Blacks have only a history of subjugation and a lack of self worth in this country, it's hard to overcome the fact that we're starting from such a position of weakness. In the recession Blacks lost 40% of their net wealth. They didn't have much to begin with. Jews weren't prevented from owning businesses for much of their history in this country and so they came with skills and were able to grow from there, but that was not possible for Blacks and to this very day there are relatively few Black owned businesses in the Black Community. As I've said the system has worked as intended to keep Blacks lower class. It isn't an accident or bug in the system. This is a feature of the American system.

Nix, this was a great post. I have spent sometime reading about what you wrote. Very enlightening.

Jews are still very involved in civil rights and minority litigation however it is certainly not the same as it was since jews today find themselves in lest of a struggle and don't have the same blending limitations as you mentioned.

Leaders like khalid muhammad, Louis Farrakhan and Al Sharpton (he has mellowed) did not help the relationship either. They constantly preached about the jewish conspiracy to oppress blacks. They did a lot of hate mongering and I believe the it hurt both sides.

actofgod wrote:For the official record: I am not religious, not a republican, am not a secret republican "independent" that votes republican. I'm a clinton-voting, liberterian leaning independent. Figure I'd get that out of the way before the assumptions come flying. I do not like seeing double-standards and hypocrites. I do not like slanted and incorrect historical statements, and I certainly don't like seeing an entire message board use one idiot's words as some sort of de facto indictment of an entire race of people. Yes, that is what was going on and what prompted me to post in this thread.

indictment against which race?

actofgod wrote:For the official record: I am not religious, not a republican, am not a secret republican "independent" that votes republican. I'm a clinton-voting, liberterian leaning independent. Figure I'd get that out of the way before the assumptions come flying. I do not like seeing double-standards and hypocrites. I do not like slanted and incorrect historical statements, and I certainly don't like seeing an entire message board use one idiot's words as some sort of de facto indictment of an entire race of people. Yes, that is what was going on and what prompted me to post in this thread.

may I ask: why did you post the below?

actofgod wrote:Ignorance comes in all colors. By all means, continue spewing your ignorance. Voter fraud is not a smoke screen, they just found over 30,000 instances of double voting in North Carolina. No one has admitted that it is just an excuse to limit the black vote. You live in a fantasty world, linking mother jones is the first cue.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/2014/04/03/oh-my-evidence-of-massive-voter-fraud-in-north-carolina-n1818137

The article you linked to is very specific in saying that some institution found ~35,000 instances of people with the same first/last name and DOB as NC voters, not double voting. Let that sink in. And yet the title of the article is "Audit Finds Evidence of Widespread Voter Fraud in North Carolina". They did a match on first and last name and DOB from the 100 million people in other states to NC voters who match first, last and DOB. Yay. Why, to you, does this count as double voting? You site this article as some significance, please back it up.

actofgod wrote:Sometimes I feel like some of these threads become basically someone going "white people!" and then a peanut gallery of "yup".

I feel like you just read the article and said "yup".

This matching program was started by this guy: Kris Kobach. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris_Kobach Please let me know how many instances - just 1 - of voter fraud his group has turned up. No need for a conviction, just heavy evidence; I would love to see what Kobach has turned up. And if no voter fraud has turned up, why then do we keep getting new laws in this area? Could it be something institutional?

Please also help me understand why the Wisconsin law was not upheld if there was even a whiff (there wasn't BTW) of voter fraud.

actofgod wrote:Ignorance comes in all colors. By all means, continue spewing your ignorance. Voter fraud is not a smoke screen, they just found over 30,000 instances of double voting in North Carolina. No one has admitted that it is just an excuse to limit the black vote.

This is as good as it gets, right out in the open:

Mike Turzai — the Republican House Majority Leader of Pennsylvania

Pennsylvania’s GOP chairman, Rob Gleason,

http://articles.philly.com/2012-07-05/news/32537732_1_voter-id-new-voter-id-cards

More than 758,000 registered voters in Pennsylvania do not have photo identification cards from the state Transportation Department, putting their voting rights at risk in the November election, according to data released Tuesday by state election officials.

The figures - representing 9.2 percent of the state's 8.2 million voters - are significantly higher than prior estimates by the Corbett administration. Secretary of the Commonwealth Carol Aichele has repeatedly said that 99 percent of Pennsylvania's voters already had the photo ID they will need at the polls in November.

The new numbers, based on a comparison of voter registration rolls with PennDot ID databases, shows the potential problem is much bigger, particularly in Philadelphia, where 186,830 registered voters - 18 percent of the city's total registration - do not have PennDot ID.

Under Pennsylvania's new voter ID law, various other forms of photo identification will be accepted at voting places in November, including U.S. passports, student identification cards with expiration dates, current military identification, and ID cards issued to government employees.

But for most voters, the Pennsylvania driver's license is the standard photo ID. The disclosure that 9 percent of the state's registered voters don't have one - or an alternative, nondriver PennDot photo ID - provides a clearer picture of the hurdle set up by the state's new voter ID requirement.

Republican lawmakers pushed the bill through the legislature in March and it was signed into law by Gov. Corbett, over protests from Democrats that the measure would disenfranchise thousands of voters, disproportionately affecting those without driver's licenses - the poor, the elderly, and the young.

House Republican leader Mike Turzai acknowledged the law's political implications at a Republican State Committee meeting last month.

"Voter ID - which is going to allow Gov. Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania - done," Turzai told the crowd, which burst into applause, as he listed legislative accomplishments under GOP control.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/post/pennsylvania-admits-it-no-voter-fraud-problem/2012/07/24/gJQAHNVt6W_blog.html

The state signed a stipulation agreement with lawyers for the plaintiffs which acknowledges there “have been no investigations or prosecutions of in-person voter fraud in Pennsylvania; and the parties do not have direct personal knowledge of any such investigations or prosecutions in other states.”

The above reinterpreted: State admits to no voter fraud but wanted to change voter ID laws.

Financial institutions preyed on African American and Latino families in the years leading up the Great Recession of the late 2000s. Minorities were intentionally steered into signing unfair and deceptive loans, despite being eligible for much more manageable and practical financial packages.
Compared to white borrowers in the same financial bracket, African Americans and Latinos were 30 percent more likely to sign onto high-interest loans that were near impossible to repay. Black wealth fell over 50 percent during the recession, the largest loss of financial gains since Reconstruction following the Civil War. Put differently, two generations of economic progress has been undone in black communities, meaning financial hardship for decades to come.
http://mediatoolkit.newamerica.net/predatory-lenders-used-online-profiling-to-target-minority-families-wall-street-profited/

So if you put together the entire picture of Voter ID laws, the unfair Stop and Frisk type law practices and inbalance in sentencing where blacks get longer sentences, historic double unemployment for Blacks ... I mean in every sector of society there is massive evidence that something is wrong. The sad thing is that these practices also end up hurting poor whites too. The right wing media convinces poor whites that minorities are their problem and thus they vote against their own best interests. That is what happens every day in the South and rural areas of the country.

More white people make use of Government programs than Blacks but you wouldn't know that based on the rhetoric. When progressive programs are blocked by Republicans it effects millions of middle class and poor whites negatively as well. Down here poor whites go to the public schools with Black kids but the Whites with money send their kids to private schools. It's a huge issue down here, but again the right wing media doesn't focus on this when they talk about cutting teachers and public school budgets. It's the big lie that has been keeping this country from being as strong as it could be.

actofgod wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

actofgod wrote:For the official record: I am not religious, not a republican, am not a secret republican "independent" that votes republican. I'm a clinton-voting, liberterian leaning independent. Figure I'd get that out of the way before the assumptions come flying. I do not like seeing double-standards and hypocrites. I do not like slanted and incorrect historical statements, and I certainly don't like seeing an entire message board use one idiot's words as some sort of de facto indictment of an entire race of people. Yes, that is what was going on and what prompted me to post in this thread.

You're a real piece of work. You call me out as a bigot because I link to an article about the voting rights act being gutted, which is a fact. I also mention that some republicans have admitted that they are trying to disenfranchise blacks and you call me a liar. What's next race traitor? Where the phuck did I indict the entire white race? Clarence Thomas voted for gutting this act. I named one way where blacks are being discriminated against. Are white people allowed to do that? Do we have to clear it with you first?

Your proof that Im a bigot and a liar is an article from a bunch of knuckle dragging morons who claims they found 30000 instances of voter fraud which was 100 percent pure unadulterated BS. They thought they found instances of potential voter fraud but they couldnt find one example of someone voting for someone else.

Instead of admitting you got it wrong, you spout off like a total fing idiot as if white people are being martyred on this forum. Left leaning my arse. You are much more concerned about the rare instances of voter fraud than you are about the very real and proven efforts to make it harder for black people to vote. If anyone sounds like a bigot here its you dip****.

lol yes, it is so difficult for blacks to get ID's. The entire notion is ridiculous. If being poor makes it harder to get an ID then white people would be hit even harder, since there are far more poor whites than blacks or any minority. Every civilized and industrialized country on earth requires an ID to vote, even your precious socialistic european utopias. You might as well come out and say it, you don't want voter ID's because not requiring ID helps democrats. Just be honest about it. As for NC, the best you have is "they can't prove it"?

Your inherent racism is highlighted in every post. You WANT white people to be racist because it suits your confirmation bias. Did it ever dawn on you that republicans are interested in voter ID laws because the vast majority of voter fraud is democrat? Do you really think that they're so racist they just can't bear to live with the fact that black people can vote? Is that really what you think...or maybe is it possible that black people basically only vote democrat? If blacks reliably voted GOP do you think they'd be singing the same tune....since, you know, they're such horrible racists? If blacks voted GOP democrats would be doing the same thing...this also applies to illegal immigration. This has nothing to do with racism and everything to do with power, votes and (most importantly) money.

Politics. The more you know.

BTW, it was your precious LJB who said "I’ll Have Those N-----s Voting Democratic For The Next 200 Years."

He also said:

“These Negroes, they’re getting pretty uppity these days and that’s a problem for us since they’ve got something now they never had before, the political pull to back up their uppityness. Now we’ve got to do something about this, we’ve got to give them a little something, just enough to quiet them down, not enough to make a difference.”

You can find this in Ronald Kessler’s “Inside The White House”

Go back to Al Franken's election. Al Franken was the deciding vote on passing Obamacare. He won by a total of 312 votes. At least 341 convicted felons voted in that election in one county alone.

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/peter-roff/2010/07/20/al-franken-may-have-won-his-senate-seat-through-voter-fraud

If anyone is interested in the subject, you may want to check out the book "Who's counting?". Until then, by all means continue your bigoted witch hunt of the evil white man. This is doing wonders for our culture, everyone's really getting along.

I suppose the best way to describe things would be, someone doth protest too much.

brb going to meet up with Jay Z at the totally not racist 5% nation meeting. Spike Lee said he'd come so long as there were no inter-racial couples coming.

You still wont own up to posting complete horse****, until you do this will be my last response on this matter. As far as wanting white people to be racist, I'm not the one sounding like David Duke's love child whining like a little beyotch about white people being treated unfairly here. Nowhere in any of my posts did I make any statement about the evil white man, that's in your mentally addled little mind. Talking about policies that mostly whites enact against minorities is not an indictment of the entire white race but an indictment of those who want to suppress the minority vote for their own selfish purposes. Your hyper sensitivity to any white people being criticized for doing these things confirms that you are more concerned with protecting the reputation of us long "oppressed" white people than anything else. Which makes you sound like you just got back from a cross burning.

Ive never been a registered democrat and have voted for republicans in the past, granted it was a long time ago before they lost their minds, as Charles Barkley famously said. There are higher percentage of blacks living in poverty and they vote mostly for democrats. It costs money, time, and transportation, to get a voter ID. It might be easy for you but not for others. And yes Its not just targeting blacks but any group that historically has voted for democrats. If the GOP wanted the black vote their policies would be much different. As for your Franken story, the article claims that felons "may have voted" for Franken. My article debunking your BS article shows how it can be a case of mistaken identity. This still isnt a case of someone impersonating another voter and a Voter ID law would not address that.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/03/study-finds-voter-id-laws-hurt-young-minorities-88773.html

As a handful of state legislatures around the country consider enacting stricter voter ID laws, a new study finds that young people – and especially young minorities – are disproportionately affected by those laws when they go into effect. According to the study, previewed before its release to POLITICO, significantly more minority youths age 18-29 were asked to show identification than white youth: 72.9 percent of black youth were asked for ID, compared with 60.8 percent of Latino youth and 50.8 percent of white youth.

Even in states where there are no voter ID laws on the books, 65.5 percent of black youth were asked to show ID at the polls, compared with 55.3 percent of Latino youth and 42.8 percent of white youth.

And for many young minority youths, even the concept of a required ID was a primary reason they didn’t go to the polls last year: 17.3 percent of black youth and 8.1 percent of Latino youth said their lack of adequate ID kept them from voting, compared with just 4.7 percent of white youth.

The study was co-authored by Cathy J. Cohen of the University of Chicago and Jon C. Rogowski of Washington University in St. Louis.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/03/how-voter-id-laws-are-being-used-to-disenfranchise-minorities-and-the-poor/254572/

First, let's call it what it is. The burgeoning battles over state redistricting and voter ID laws -- and the larger fight over a key part of the Voting Rights Act itself -- are all cynical expressions of the concerns many conservatives (of both parties) have about the future of the American electorate. The Republican lawmakers who are leading the fight for the restrictive legislation say they are doing so in the name of stopping election fraud -- and, really, who's in favor of election fraud? But the larger purpose and effect of the laws is to disenfranchise Hispanic voters, other minorities, and the poor -- most of whom, let's also be clear, vote for Democrats. Jonathan Chait, in a smart recent New York magazine piece titled "2012 or Never," offered some numbers supporting the theory. "Every year," Chait wrote, "the nonwhite proportion of the electorate grows by about half a percentage point meaning that in every presidential election, the minority share of the vote increases by 2 percent, a huge amount in a closely divided country." This explains, for example, why Colorado, Nevada, and Arizona are turning purple instead of staying red. "By 2020," Chait writes, "nonwhite voters should rise from a quarter of the 2008 electorate to one third. In 30 years, "nonwhites will outnumber whites."

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/study-voter-id-law-would-exclude-up-to-700000-young-minorities/

An analysis by the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University's law school found that 11 percent of Americans lack a government-issued photo ID such as a passport, driver's license, state ID card or military ID. Nine percent of whites don't have such ID, compared with 25 percent of blacks and 16 percent of Hispanics, the Brennan study said.

gunsnewing wrote:That DMV in Wayne sucked!

Saw the great Charles Smith there once

It sure did! Anyway, in case of actofgod says it isn't a tax because there the Voter ID cards are free like they were in Pennsylvania, I bet you still had to go to a DMV to get them. Maybe someone on this board from PA can verify. Doesn't seem very libertarian to me to be OK with a notorious bureaucracy like that to stand in between me and my vote, and now I'm "in the system"… is that the real end? An ID for something you do once or twice a year, tops? I'm just saying, it doesn't sound like a crime that gets committed often to me. I think of voter impediments from the past.

IN the 1970's when "Southern Rock" filled the Nassau colseum witn a Lynard Skynard concert it was a sign of the "Rebel".
When it flies over a state capital is reeks of old timey racism.
When a state has a variant of it perhaps we need to see if the state flag was changed after the civil war.
To the Daughters of the confederate its not why there was a war, for some its just to remember people that died in a war.

I was touring Germany/Austria a few years back and in a museam there was a military exibit. It showed midevil armaments and turn the corner and there are WW2 uniforms. NAZI's!!!!! Startling at first! An German older man came to me when he saw my obvious tourist expression and said: " Maybe you lost someone in the holocost, or died at Normandy and feel anger? I said "Yes", He said "Me too". "we are the same" he continued, "The uniform did not represent all ideals, many went along with the Nazi Party because we were hungry, we were afraid, and sometimes we had no choce. We could not investigate on the internet, we are german people and we respect authority. We were wrong, but we honor or fallen not because of the reason we faught, we honor because they fought for their lives, fought for their family, and faught for their country. Many were poor, many had no choice"

Being there made me understand this concept. While no fan of the Nazi party, I became humanized to feel for the german people who suffered under their rule as well. Not everyone was a Nazi. Information was not as availble as it is today and their society is one that trusts authority. Our "Pioneer spirit" is more aligned to question it sometimes.

Living in the south I don't always think the stars and bars are always a racist symbol as I used to think. Its not a swastika but for some a cultural symbol of a war that took away many family members. sometimes the reasons are not the issue.

Personally I think it should not fly on public property and often I do think it is used as a racist symbol. For some, the "Rebal" seems like a cool idea. Thats misguided.

Shame so many had to die on both sides for an issue that morally has no debate. Wars are fought for economic reasons. The civil was was no different.

Nixluva, Im not debating this nor trying to justify its symbol. Right or wrong if it hurts people society should look at it as such. At the same time a family that lost men to that war would also be offended to a degree to see it banished. We should have come up with another symbol to represent the loss of people in its place.

Maybe no more war is the best policy going forward!