tkf wrote:

Nalod wrote:

tkf wrote:

Nalod wrote:Spree, like Bernard King are emotional favorites for some knick fans. King was here a very brief time but had some nice moments. Spree was a polarizing figure whose "Choking" incidence vaulted him to a national audience. Public opinion on him ran among racial lines. He didn't just choke his coach, he stood up to "the man"! He was portrayed in the media with them using a video of a dunk, followed by a primal scream that portrayed him in a negative light.

In the end he sort of lived up to some of his stereotypes as he was often late to camp, missing from camp, would disappear, pretty much controversial broken hand, ended his relationship with three teams in a negative light, publicly picked his dog over his bitten daughter, got offended by a very good contract, and from what we have read is pretty much broke now.

But he was a "good team mate!" We only know that because players did not throw him under the bus. But knick media policy sort of prevents that. My take is if your late to camp and miss some preseaon because of it maybe thats not a good team mate? Everyone else seemed to manage to make it. Spree would get in his car and drive cross country and nobody knew where he was.

In my book spree was a free spirit and that made him fun. I enjoyed his play but he was over rated by knick fans because they were attracted to his anti establishment thing.

Melo is the star of this team and a star of the league because he can score. He has proven himself reliable and a consummate professional on and off the court as a knick. He has matured since his early Denver days. The winning or lack of it has much to do with "clumsy" roster construction.

Melo is the better knick. Spree was a great storyline. King was a great maturation story and he is in the Hall of fame. MElo will be, spree won't.

yea, don't you just love how he sucker slapped collins and then backpedaled.... very professional..

speak for yourself nalod.. sprewell was liked because he produced results, he was good, fiery and a true competitor... did he come to camp late, sure, did he have issues.. sure... but one thing I do know, when he stepped on that hard wood, he never cheated the fans... I can't say the same thing about carmelo who sabotaged the team because he didn't want to play dantoni's way.. to me that is being a bad teamate and scum.. no one is perfect but when you are willing to sabotage your own team, to get your way.. you are dead to me..

You wear "Hate Melo" colored glasses.

I said: "as a knick"

And that: "matured since his early denver days".

I think players that bring drama takes something form his teammates. I think players who don't come to camp are not giving it all. I think players who break bones in stupid fights cheat fans as well. Spree was a natural athlete and did not have to get into shape like others, but imagine if he was more professional off the court. If he came on time and prepared.

Sorry, I liked his "Phuch the establishment" gig and found it amusing but objectively I think he was less than consumate pro. Not like King was, not like Melo is.

I don't like that he did not blend well with MDA. BUt he did carry the franchise on his back the remaining 24 games after he left and took ownerhship.

Im not here to argue as its pointless with you. I don't do Melo love/hate threads. I am on record as not liking the trade but that was a price issue. I think Melo has lived up to his end of the bargain and never held him in the high standard as some others, so Im not disappionted in him as much as the knicks as a franchise for not seeing the full picture. "Clumsy" was telling. Last season they played over their heads whick I think Woodson was very responsable for. Woody Hate is typical response given this season.

Spree was a piece of a pretty good team. He was not the starphuch centerpiece that Melo is.

I liked spree for all the reasons you do, but objectively as you said he had his flaws. Those weigh heavier with me.

Nalod YOu think I wear "hate melo " colored glasses... and I think you wear "play both sides of the fence" colored glasses... Yet in the end, it doesn't change facts..

And that: "matured since his early denver days".

thats up for debate, the out of shape loser sabotaged the knicks just to get his way with dantoni....

He also made comments that I feel alienated lin...

Hardly what I call "maturing"... he still stick foot in mouth.... every time he opens it..

Im not here to argue as its pointless with you.

arguing is pointless with anyone... I rather debate... but again that is hard to do when you try to play both sides nalod..

I think Melo has lived up to his end of the bargain and never held him in the high standard as some others,

what was his end of the bargain? he was supposed to be this game changer late game shot maker for the knicks.. so far he has failed miserably in both areas....

but I guess our lack of success in the playoffs with him here and his lack of big shot making, is just all in my head as I wear my "hate melo" colored glasses..

TKF,

can you try to listen to what he has to say instead of going directly into defense mode?

Who is on your side here and actually thinks like you? Don't you find that strange? That your thinking (forget about just Carmelo) is not aligned with anyone? And that there is no way to tie all the spaghetti arguments into a consistent statistical theme?

Big Heart, Finals, HAH! I WON - I WON - I WON!

Here is an article about what Iverson was the best at "Missing Shots"
http://wagesofwins.com/2012/10/08/missing-shots-where-allen-iverson-is-an-all-time-great/

That does not really cut it.

You do know that though Melo has not been good late in games this year, the other years he's been here, he has been very good, right?

You don't "debate" unless you think you are winning which is rare, so you would much rather mud sling.

Poster's are on to you. You have way too many holes to fill.

Now let's debate so that you can attempt to fill them (or make them much bigger).

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

JamesLin wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

JamesLin wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:Because stuff like that doesn't seem to be accurate or tangent to the conversation. You're lauding Sprewell for getting us to the Finals as if the 14 other players and coach had nothing to do with it. Before New York, what was Sprewell? How well was he in getting the Warriors to the Finals? To the playoffs? Or even a winning record?

And who gives a **** if he holds an NBA record? Scott Skiles holds the record in assists. Does that mean he gets to be put in a conversation with John Stockton? If you really want to play the accolade game, Melo easily outshines Sprewell e.g. most points in a quarter (33), NBA scoring champion, more All-NBA recognitions, more all-star berths, etc. I just don't think that the line of reasoning that you're using holds any real weight in the kind of conversation that you're trying to have.

Ok, so which part is not accurate? Sprewell helped getting us to the NBA finals is not? I never said Sprewell one handed took us to the finals. So by your argument, if Carmelo took us to the finals, you're saying I will be lauding Melo for getting us to the Finals as if the 14 other players and coach had nothing to do with it? Who gives a **** if he holds an NBA record as a Knicks? Are you even a NBA fan then? So all your argument so far only states 'James, you're wrong, period and all records are useless in my book'. So, although I have a hard time even respecting you now as a somewhat basketball fan since you disregard NBA record or championship as crap, you still haven't counter argue what is relevant to who's a better Knicks player... so what is it then?

Again, your argument makes no sense. You keep trying to use the fact that Sprewell was on a Finals team to demonstrate that he was a better player than Melo. That is simply stupid. Postseason success isn't an individual accolade, it is a team accolade. Melo NEVER had the caliber of teammate that Sprewell did in New York, so it is inappropriate to bring team success into the discussion. For the record though, I could care less what you do with your respect. I'd just like to see a cogent debate being made.

As for NBA records, again, it is hardly relevant. When comparing two players you need to look at a body of work and not just individual games. I used the Scott Skiles example to demonstrate that point. By your line of reasoning, we should begin to entertain him being in conversations with the greatest PG's of all-time since he accomplished a feat that none of them did. That would be absurd. Jamal Crawford once had a 50 point game as a Knick. Does that make him worthy of being compared to Bernard King, Patrick Ewing, Carmelo Anthony, Earl the Pearl and the like? It would be frivolous to assume so.

Moving forward, you need to define what makes another player better than another. What does that involve in your opinion?

Oh god. You're doing this yet again. You still haven't answered the question.. so what IS RELEVANT to be the better KNICKS player? All you said up there was why I don't make any sense. I already defined mine in several points (see first post), whether you agree or not. You have YET to define yours. You keep avoiding answering it because ... you don't have an answer and hate my answer? If you make another post not answer directly my question to you, then I know you're just arguing for the sake of arguing and I have no patience to debate/argue with people like that because it's like arguing with a little kid saying 'no no no' 'no no no'.

I actually did that both directly and indirectly. I clearly suggested that you have to ignore team accomplishments and focus on individual accolades (examples I used included all-star appearances, All-NBA recognitions, statistic champion, etc). I also clearly stated that these accolades would have to be a part of a greater and more demonstrated body of work than individual games. If you invested as much time in reading comprehension as you did in being a condescending, smart-ass, you would've realized that.

All star games are more popularity contest, but if you want to go accolades.. spree made all nba first team and all NBA defense second team.. carmelo never, ever made an all defense team( no surprise there) and he never made all NBA first team... both guys made multiple all star games...

You do realize that the all defense and all NBA year was after he left the knicks right (93-94 with Minny)? This poll is about the knicks.

That same year, he was 11th in MVP voting (93-94 with Minny), never sniffed that close before. Carmelo was 3rd and 6th in voting.

How many times was Sprewell player of the Week? NONE. Player of the Month? NONE. Melo, Player of the week 18, player of the month 5.

Are you just cherry picking a bit?

Sprewell was the better defender but he would have to be the best defender in history * 20 to make up for the offensive gap of the two players.

Dude, like I told you, proceed at your own caution. You'll never get a cogent argument out of him if it involves Melo. Case and point, somehow in his world being all-defense twice (which only accounts for one side of the floor) is more significant than being all-NBA, which Melo has been 6 times out of his 9 year career (despite that honor accounting for a player's complete game). He's got his own anti-Melo agenda and no amount of facts are going to disrupt that. Its why I don't even bother to read his posts, unless I accidently glimpse it in someone else's response.

tkf wrote:

mreinman wrote:@TFK

Iverson in the playoffs 29.7 points on 26.5 shots! That is horrible! You know this right? So please tell me how he made up for this. It was not his defense, we all know that.

His FG was 40 percent! Ouch! And his TS was 49. But the dude had heart and "willed" his team and "blah blah blah".

Every chuck he took away from others hurt his team.

Iverson was the best player I have ever seen at creating his own shot. Yet he still could not figure out how to use this talent into actually taking GOOD shots.

BUT HE MADE THE FINALS! "Can you say the same thing about MELO?" Rinse repeat ....

You are right, it was eric snow that led them to the finals..

Iverson took his team to the finals.. sometimes Great players can overcome those flaws in their games... the proof is there, he went to the finals... until you can erase that part of history..

GAME_SET_ MATCH Homie...

STRAW MAN! Clapping

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

JamesLin wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

JamesLin wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:Because stuff like that doesn't seem to be accurate or tangent to the conversation. You're lauding Sprewell for getting us to the Finals as if the 14 other players and coach had nothing to do with it. Before New York, what was Sprewell? How well was he in getting the Warriors to the Finals? To the playoffs? Or even a winning record?

And who gives a **** if he holds an NBA record? Scott Skiles holds the record in assists. Does that mean he gets to be put in a conversation with John Stockton? If you really want to play the accolade game, Melo easily outshines Sprewell e.g. most points in a quarter (33), NBA scoring champion, more All-NBA recognitions, more all-star berths, etc. I just don't think that the line of reasoning that you're using holds any real weight in the kind of conversation that you're trying to have.

Ok, so which part is not accurate? Sprewell helped getting us to the NBA finals is not? I never said Sprewell one handed took us to the finals. So by your argument, if Carmelo took us to the finals, you're saying I will be lauding Melo for getting us to the Finals as if the 14 other players and coach had nothing to do with it? Who gives a **** if he holds an NBA record as a Knicks? Are you even a NBA fan then? So all your argument so far only states 'James, you're wrong, period and all records are useless in my book'. So, although I have a hard time even respecting you now as a somewhat basketball fan since you disregard NBA record or championship as crap, you still haven't counter argue what is relevant to who's a better Knicks player... so what is it then?

Again, your argument makes no sense. You keep trying to use the fact that Sprewell was on a Finals team to demonstrate that he was a better player than Melo. That is simply stupid. Postseason success isn't an individual accolade, it is a team accolade. Melo NEVER had the caliber of teammate that Sprewell did in New York, so it is inappropriate to bring team success into the discussion. For the record though, I could care less what you do with your respect. I'd just like to see a cogent debate being made.

As for NBA records, again, it is hardly relevant. When comparing two players you need to look at a body of work and not just individual games. I used the Scott Skiles example to demonstrate that point. By your line of reasoning, we should begin to entertain him being in conversations with the greatest PG's of all-time since he accomplished a feat that none of them did. That would be absurd. Jamal Crawford once had a 50 point game as a Knick. Does that make him worthy of being compared to Bernard King, Patrick Ewing, Carmelo Anthony, Earl the Pearl and the like? It would be frivolous to assume so.

Moving forward, you need to define what makes another player better than another. What does that involve in your opinion?

Oh god. You're doing this yet again. You still haven't answered the question.. so what IS RELEVANT to be the better KNICKS player? All you said up there was why I don't make any sense. I already defined mine in several points (see first post), whether you agree or not. You have YET to define yours. You keep avoiding answering it because ... you don't have an answer and hate my answer? If you make another post not answer directly my question to you, then I know you're just arguing for the sake of arguing and I have no patience to debate/argue with people like that because it's like arguing with a little kid saying 'no no no' 'no no no'.

I actually did that both directly and indirectly. I clearly suggested that you have to ignore team accomplishments and focus on individual accolades (examples I used included all-star appearances, All-NBA recognitions, statistic champion, etc). I also clearly stated that these accolades would have to be a part of a greater and more demonstrated body of work than individual games. If you invested as much time in reading comprehension as you did in being a condescending, smart-ass, you would've realized that.

All star games are more popularity contest, but if you want to go accolades.. spree made all nba first team and all NBA defense second team.. carmelo never, ever made an all defense team( no surprise there) and he never made all NBA first team... both guys made multiple all star games...

You do realize that the all defense and all NBA year was after he left the knicks right (93-94 with Minny)? This poll is about the knicks.

That same year, he was 11th in MVP voting (93-94 with Minny), never sniffed that close before. Carmelo was 3rd and 6th in voting.

How many times was Sprewell player of the Week? NONE. Player of the Month? NONE. Melo, Player of the week 18, player of the month 5.

Are you just cherry picking a bit?

Sprewell was the better defender but he would have to be the best defender in history * 20 to make up for the offensive gap of the two players.

Dude, like I told you, proceed at your own caution. You'll never get a cogent argument out of him if it involves Melo. Case and point, somehow in his world being all-defense twice (which only accounts for one side of the floor) is more significant than being all-NBA, which Melo has been for half his career (and that honor involves a player's complete game). He's got his own anti-Melo agenda and no amount of facts are going to disrupt that. Its why I don't even both to read his posts, unless I accidently glimpse it in someone else's response.

You'll never get a cogent argument out of him if it involves Melo. Case and point, somehow in his world being all-defense twice (which only accounts for one side of the floor) is more significant than being all-NBA, which Melo has been for half his career (and that honor involves a player's complete game).

sprewell has also been all NBA, actually first team.. something carmelo has never done... what is more significant is that sprewell was a results player.. came to NY, we go to finals first year.. he goes to the wolves they go to the ECF that same year..

Boy it would be nice if carmelo had that kind of impact on the knicks...

care to argue that? I am asking for results.. all you can give me are excuses.. because I am going to ask you now.. why are we failing with carmelo.. and you are going to blame it on someone else.... for a change. please surprise me...

otherwise you are doing what you are accusing me of..

Grit, Heart - stop saying these things and show me how it translates. You want to use that for Rodman? Ok, that is quantifiable.

Iverson was not just inefficient, he was atrocious and anyone who has gone back to study him, realized how detrimental he was to his team.

This is some good info:
I suppose if you value using possessions on missed shots, then Iverson is your guy. Iverson also had the advantage of giving up points at a higher rate than he scored them. Clearly if losing basketball games is your thing, yes, Iverson wins, hands down. Even in his ridiculous MVP season he was only a +1 on ORtg to DRtg and had a anemic 103 ORtg. Lets put Iverson's amazing offensive futility in perspective--Derek Fisher currently has an ORtg of 104. In Iverson's "best" season he was less likely to score on a possession than Fisher in his worst season (or one of them--Fisher was unbelievably bad in 99-00). Fisher has a career ORtg of 108. Yes, Iverson excelled at "creating a shot." What Iverson really excelled at was wasting possessions. It matters little if you have the ability to create a terrible shot that you miss. That is what Iverson did. He just took lots and lots and lots of really, really bad shots.

oh right, grit LMFAO

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

mreinman wrote:@TFK

Iverson in the playoffs 29.7 points on 26.5 shots! That is horrible! You know this right? So please tell me how he made up for this. It was not his defense, we all know that.

His FG was 40 percent! Ouch! And his TS was 49. But the dude had heart and "willed" his team and "blah blah blah".

Every chuck he took away from others hurt his team.

Iverson was the best player I have ever seen at creating his own shot. Yet he still could not figure out how to use this talent into actually taking GOOD shots.

BUT HE MADE THE FINALS! "Can you say the same thing about MELO?" Rinse repeat ....

You are right, it was eric snow that led them to the finals..

Iverson took his team to the finals.. sometimes Great players can overcome those flaws in their games... the proof is there, he went to the finals... until you can erase that part of history..

GAME_SET_ MATCH Homie...

STRAW MAN! Clapping

I am asking you sarcastically to explain to me how the sixers made the finals with iverson being so bad..

you present losing arguments.. you never answer any questions.. I ask.. how did the sixers make it to the finals..

How did the knicks make the finals?

care to explain any of those to me?

you already had your skirt pulled down.. Now I am giving you a chance to save yourself.. Lets look at the results... why is it that sprewell and the knicks have had so much more success than carmelo.. who was brought here to do the very thing sprewell has done?

25 points on 23 shots thats why. So please tell me how he overcame this and contributed greatness? Please don't tell me then he got there or some other childish drivel like that.

If you knew / remembered as much bball as you claim you would have a better understanding of the makeup of that sixer team.

are you that dense? I don't need to tell you a damn thing.. He took his team to the finals, obviously He had to over come it.. either that or eric snow and aaron Mckie were the reasons they went.. either way you backed yourself into a corner..

I mean are you pretending to be this dense? please tell me this is an act..

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

mreinman wrote:@TFK

Iverson in the playoffs 29.7 points on 26.5 shots! That is horrible! You know this right? So please tell me how he made up for this. It was not his defense, we all know that.

His FG was 40 percent! Ouch! And his TS was 49. But the dude had heart and "willed" his team and "blah blah blah".

Every chuck he took away from others hurt his team.

Iverson was the best player I have ever seen at creating his own shot. Yet he still could not figure out how to use this talent into actually taking GOOD shots.

BUT HE MADE THE FINALS! "Can you say the same thing about MELO?" Rinse repeat ....

You are right, it was eric snow that led them to the finals..

Iverson took his team to the finals.. sometimes Great players can overcome those flaws in their games... the proof is there, he went to the finals... until you can erase that part of history..

GAME_SET_ MATCH Homie...

STRAW MAN! Clapping

I am asking you sarcastically to explain to me how the sixers made the finals with iverson being so bad..

you present losing arguments.. you never answer any questions.. I ask.. how did the sixers make it to the finals..

How did the knicks make the finals?

care to explain any of those to me?

you already had your skirt pulled down.. Now I am giving you a chance to save yourself.. Lets look at the results... why is it that sprewell and the knicks have had so much more success than carmelo.. who was brought here to do the very thing sprewell has done?

25 points on 23 shots thats why. So please tell me how he overcame this and contributed greatness? Please don't tell me then he got there or some other childish drivel like that.

If you knew / remembered as much bball as you claim you would have a better understanding of the makeup of that sixer team.

are you that dense? I don't need to tell you a damn thing.. He took his team to the finals, obviously He had to over come it.. either that or eric snow and aaron Mckie were the reasons they went.. either way you backed yourself into a corner..

I mean are you pretending to be this dense? please tell me this is an act..

haha - this is funny.

And how do you know that it was not the rest of the team, not him that were the main contributors? Because they did not attempt to jack of every shot and miss most?

Because they played locked down dirty defense against weak competition?

Winning proves nothing. It depends how you won and contributed. PLEASE TELL ME HOW HE POSITIVELY CONTRIBUTED? YOU CAN'T BE THAT DUMB, ITS NOT POSSIBLE.

Was Melo Phenomenal last year in the regular season and that was the reason why they won 54 games? Or were there other less obvious contributors that may have made this happen?

And by the way, Melo has been a pretty awful playoff performer but at least I can see that without my Melo Hate Colored Glasses. His teams and coaches never overcame in futility.

Iverson was lucky enough to have his team overcome mr all time inefficient to get him to the Finals - yay for him.

You would make a great attorney or accountant they way you use data to prove your pointlessness.

No it is not funny, but you are embarrasing yourself.. what you will find is that a lot of the all time greats didn't shoot that well in the finals or playoffs.. We are talking results here.. Jordan vs the sonics shot 41% in the finals.. did he not positvely contribute to the bulls winning? please make sure you answer that..... iverson while not shooting that well, did average 32ppg, 6 boards, 5 dimes and almost 3 steals per game... He found a way to will his team, grit his team, however you want to put it.. he found a way to get to the finals.. that year.. a year in which he was named NBA mvp... he was NBA mvp yet you are saying he wasn't the most valuable player on his team? Did you think that tyson chandler wasn't the best defensive player on the knicks although he won DPOY? your argument stinks...If Iverson didn't positvely contribute to the sixers, please tell me with all of your moronic logic, how did the sixers get to the finals?

mreinman wrote:TKF,

If you stop using FG% and start using what the cooler and smarter people are using (TS, eFG, PER, WP's, WS's) then, for starters, you will start out not sounding as dumb.

Please look at Jordan's playoffs TS's and compare to Mr Gritty Ivy - Game Set Match - Butt Fumbler. Ouch that feels weird even trying to mimic you. Ok, I won't do that again.

NBA MVP is meaningless. How could Carmelofatty have come in 3rd place when he is not even a top 10 player (or as you think, not even top 20)? How the phuck can that happen? Did they get it right? 3rd place for Melonoma?

Tyson was the best defender on the knicks that year but not even close to the best in the league. Heck the dude did not even make the all defensive team. Yes, that was a joke.

Some of these voters know as little as you do (not a good place to be)

Whats funny is that you have not presented one statistical argument. Just Sraws. Yet, you somehow think that you are winning this debate. That is really sad to watch.

And Iverson's defense sucked. That is why (I assume) that you are not going there. HIS TEAM GAME UP 90 POINTS A GAME AND BEAT TEAMS DEFENSIVELY DESPITE MR GREATEST INEFFICIENT CHUCKER OF ALL TIME.

I am not going to look up TS... what I am asking you is who was responsible for the sixers getting to the finals.. and why did the NBA give him the MVP award.. is it for not contributing positively to his team? either answer those questions are we are done here....

How could Carmelofatty have come in 3rd place when he is not even a top 10 player (or as you think, not even top 20)? How the phuck can that happen? Did they get it right? 3rd place for Melonoma?

You are the king of double talk.. thats cool.. so basically sprewell making all NBA defense means he is forever a top defender in the league right? so I ask you how many times has carmelo finished in the top 10 mvp voting.. Tony parker finished in the top ten 3 times.. does that make him a top ten player... actually you can make a better argument for him than you can for carmelo using your metric..

Dude you are getting whooped here.. aren't you tired?

and i will never stop using FG% because in the end, the goal is to make more shots than you miss, until that changes... FG% will always be used....and have value... TS only works when applied properly and you, I am sorry are not capable of doing that....

tkf wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

JamesLin wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

JamesLin wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:Because stuff like that doesn't seem to be accurate or tangent to the conversation. You're lauding Sprewell for getting us to the Finals as if the 14 other players and coach had nothing to do with it. Before New York, what was Sprewell? How well was he in getting the Warriors to the Finals? To the playoffs? Or even a winning record?

And who gives a **** if he holds an NBA record? Scott Skiles holds the record in assists. Does that mean he gets to be put in a conversation with John Stockton? If you really want to play the accolade game, Melo easily outshines Sprewell e.g. most points in a quarter (33), NBA scoring champion, more All-NBA recognitions, more all-star berths, etc. I just don't think that the line of reasoning that you're using holds any real weight in the kind of conversation that you're trying to have.

Ok, so which part is not accurate? Sprewell helped getting us to the NBA finals is not? I never said Sprewell one handed took us to the finals. So by your argument, if Carmelo took us to the finals, you're saying I will be lauding Melo for getting us to the Finals as if the 14 other players and coach had nothing to do with it? Who gives a **** if he holds an NBA record as a Knicks? Are you even a NBA fan then? So all your argument so far only states 'James, you're wrong, period and all records are useless in my book'. So, although I have a hard time even respecting you now as a somewhat basketball fan since you disregard NBA record or championship as crap, you still haven't counter argue what is relevant to who's a better Knicks player... so what is it then?

Again, your argument makes no sense. You keep trying to use the fact that Sprewell was on a Finals team to demonstrate that he was a better player than Melo. That is simply stupid. Postseason success isn't an individual accolade, it is a team accolade. Melo NEVER had the caliber of teammate that Sprewell did in New York, so it is inappropriate to bring team success into the discussion. For the record though, I could care less what you do with your respect. I'd just like to see a cogent debate being made.

As for NBA records, again, it is hardly relevant. When comparing two players you need to look at a body of work and not just individual games. I used the Scott Skiles example to demonstrate that point. By your line of reasoning, we should begin to entertain him being in conversations with the greatest PG's of all-time since he accomplished a feat that none of them did. That would be absurd. Jamal Crawford once had a 50 point game as a Knick. Does that make him worthy of being compared to Bernard King, Patrick Ewing, Carmelo Anthony, Earl the Pearl and the like? It would be frivolous to assume so.

Moving forward, you need to define what makes another player better than another. What does that involve in your opinion?

Oh god. You're doing this yet again. You still haven't answered the question.. so what IS RELEVANT to be the better KNICKS player? All you said up there was why I don't make any sense. I already defined mine in several points (see first post), whether you agree or not. You have YET to define yours. You keep avoiding answering it because ... you don't have an answer and hate my answer? If you make another post not answer directly my question to you, then I know you're just arguing for the sake of arguing and I have no patience to debate/argue with people like that because it's like arguing with a little kid saying 'no no no' 'no no no'.

I actually did that both directly and indirectly. I clearly suggested that you have to ignore team accomplishments and focus on individual accolades (examples I used included all-star appearances, All-NBA recognitions, statistic champion, etc). I also clearly stated that these accolades would have to be a part of a greater and more demonstrated body of work than individual games. If you invested as much time in reading comprehension as you did in being a condescending, smart-ass, you would've realized that.

All star games are more popularity contest, but if you want to go accolades.. spree made all nba first team and all NBA defense second team.. carmelo never, ever made an all defense team( no surprise there) and he never made all NBA first team... both guys made multiple all star games...

You do realize that the all defense and all NBA year was after he left the knicks right (93-94 with Minny)? This poll is about the knicks.

That same year, he was 11th in MVP voting (93-94 with Minny), never sniffed that close before. Carmelo was 3rd and 6th in voting.

How many times was Sprewell player of the Week? NONE. Player of the Month? NONE. Melo, Player of the week 18, player of the month 5.

Are you just cherry picking a bit?

Sprewell was the better defender but he would have to be the best defender in history * 20 to make up for the offensive gap of the two players.

Dude, like I told you, proceed at your own caution. You'll never get a cogent argument out of him if it involves Melo. Case and point, somehow in his world being all-defense twice (which only accounts for one side of the floor) is more significant than being all-NBA, which Melo has been for half his career (and that honor involves a player's complete game). He's got his own anti-Melo agenda and no amount of facts are going to disrupt that. Its why I don't even both to read his posts, unless I accidently glimpse it in someone else's response.

You'll never get a cogent argument out of him if it involves Melo. Case and point, somehow in his world being all-defense twice (which only accounts for one side of the floor) is more significant than being all-NBA, which Melo has been for half his career (and that honor involves a player's complete game).

sprewell has also been all NBA, actually first team.. something carmelo has never done... what is more significant is that sprewell was a results player.. came to NY, we go to finals first year.. he goes to the wolves they go to the ECF that same year..

Boy it would be nice if carmelo had that kind of impact on the knicks...

care to argue that? I am asking for results.. all you can give me are excuses.. because I am going to ask you now.. why are we failing with carmelo.. and you are going to blame it on someone else.... for a change. please surprise me...

otherwise you are doing what you are accusing me of..

This is what I'm talking about in terms of posts that lack objectivity.......You only touch on the surface of Spree's impact on the Knicks vs. Melo's impact.

The 99 version of the Knicks were 2x's better than any team that Melo played for on the Knicks. Spree played alongside Ewing, LJ, Houston and a young Camby. Truth be told, I would take every single one of those players before I'd take the next best player that Melo played with while in NY.

Also, that Minny team that went to the WCF also had a player by the name of Kevin Garnett. Who has Melo ever played with that was as good as KG?