fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:You are using advance stats to create a view point only you share and passing it off as fact because of your undervaluing of Melo. I won't call it hatred. I don't think

"You?" Is that me? If so, I assure you I am not the only one who takes into account advanced stats to assess players' value.

No Bonn not you. You are not low balling Melo. Maybe slightly but I know you'd be ok with keeping Melo at a fair price

How much? Bonn what would your opinion be if Melo resigned for Dwight Howard money? Not max Knicks could give, but max for a sign and trade or if he left... ?

Melo would have to sign for Harden money ($15 mil/yr) for me to think it was a reasonable deal. Since that won't happen, I wanted to trade him before the deadline.
He doesn't do enough things well to be worth near $100 mil, especially not for his 12th to 16th seasons.

I assume advanced stats say they have a similar impact on the game?

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:You are using advance stats to create a view point only you share and passing it off as fact because of your undervaluing of Melo. I won't call it hatred. I don't think

"You?" Is that me? If so, I assure you I am not the only one who takes into account advanced stats to assess players' value.

No Bonn not you. You are not low balling Melo. Maybe slightly but I know you'd be ok with keeping Melo at a fair price

How much? Bonn what would your opinion be if Melo resigned for Dwight Howard money? Not max Knicks could give, but max for a sign and trade or if he left... ?

Melo would have to sign for Harden money ($15 mil/yr) for me to think it was a reasonable deal. Since that won't happen, I wanted to trade him before the deadline.
He doesn't do enough things well to be worth near $100 mil, especially not for his 12th to 16th seasons.

I assume advanced stats say they have a similar impact on the game?

Most would put Melo's impact below Harden but I was being generous.
At this point, our least bad option is probably going to be to let Melo walk. Maybe we can get something slightly useful for him in an S & T but the new CBA makes that unlikely.

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:No G m is low along Melo who is flawed but still in his prime with only $11mil. At 34-35yrs old maybe

Players get paid for PPG. It's why there's almost no correlation between team salary and winning percentage. The GMs don't know how much players are worth. Given what we know about player salary, I assume most GMs would pay him a gigantic salary. If you wanted me to predict how much he would get paid, that would have been an entirely different discussion.
--
Edit: OK, I thought you were speaking to me before.

Savy GM's and organizations would not pay Melo over $20m. Look at the recent champions. The players who made over $20m and win a ring are all time greats Jordan Kobe Duncan KG etc. Melo is not in their class. Prior to this year a lot of people would have argued that he was. While some of us argued that he wasn't and pointed out his flaws last year to no avail. He is another year older now so negotiating a fair $5yr deal is easier. Problem is our owner isn't Savy and sees Melo as easy $$$$. And the garden fans wi flock to see him at $30m. So we agree there. Melo's value to Dolan trumps trying to actually build a winner

This is where you trust Phil Jackson's basketball knowledge. At least that's what I'm hoping for. No more STARPHUCHS

gunsnewing wrote:Dk I love what you bring to the table as far as insight into advance statistics and we agree on a lot of things specifically the importance of team chemistry which this team lacks in drones but it is often clouded by your crusade against Melo. It doesn't help that others egg you on instead of just ignoring you because then your exaggeration only get worse.

With that said I rather the Knicks not max out an aging Melo. With Phil in the mix we will have plenty of other more viable options that will help the the New York Knicks

i don't know about this crusade against melo. i just don't want the knicks to overpay a second time for him. i put a reasonable figure for him at 12-13 million. will you give me a specific figure? seems like nobody wants to volunteer a specific range which is weird to me.

actually no, fishmike said melo should be paid the max-- yet not even melo agrees with that since he has stated he is willing to take a pay cut.

maybe a figure of 17 million was put out there but i can't remember. that is way too much.

i like statistics and participating in the game thread against the celtics this past week was fun too. i said i was going to see how many bad shots he took and i counted ten. did they win? yes. can they afford to play that way in the playoffs? no. and they should be using these games as a tuneup to hone the team concept for an entire 48 minutes-- but they didn't. i may start participating on more of them as the season winds down.

unfortunately most of the nastier posters didn't participate in that thread and one that did said my poisonous observations were not welcome there either. oh well

point is i have been accused of not watching the games and therefore i lack the ability to judge a player. this is nonsense. my eyeballs are just fine they just are informed, as always, by the goal of being a legitimate title contender which the knicks have not been since melo came here and at too high a price.

so again i ask-- how much should melo be paid to play in a knick uniform?

dk7th wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Dk I love what you bring to the table as far as insight into advance statistics and we agree on a lot of things specifically the importance of team chemistry which this team lacks in drones but it is often clouded by your crusade against Melo. It doesn't help that others egg you on instead of just ignoring you because then your exaggeration only get worse.

With that said I rather the Knicks not max out an aging Melo. With Phil in the mix we will have plenty of other more viable options that will help the the New York Knicks

i don't know about this crusade against melo. i just don't want the knicks to overpay a second time for him. i put a reasonable figure for him at 12-13 million. will you give me a specific figure? seems like nobody wants to volunteer a specific range which is weird to me.

actually no, fishmike said melo should be paid the max-- yet not even melo agrees with that since he has stated he is willing to take a pay cut.

maybe a figure of 17 million was put out there but i can't remember. that is way too much.

i like statistics and participating in the game thread against the celtics this past week was fun too. i said i was going to see how many bad shots he took and i counted ten. did they win? yes. can they afford to play that way in the playoffs? no. and they should be using these games as a tuneup to hone the team concept for an entire 48 minutes-- but they didn't. i may start participating on more of them as the season winds down.

unfortunately most of the nastier posters didn't participate in that thread and one that did said my poisonous observations were not welcome there either. oh well

point is i have been accused of not watching the games and therefore i lack the ability to judge a player. this is nonsense. my eyeballs are just fine they just are informed, as always, by the goal of being a legitimate title contender which the knicks have not been since melo came here and at too high a price.

so again i ask-- how much should melo be paid to play in a knick uniform?

Bonn1997 wrote:

Dagger wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:No G m is low along Melo who is flawed but still in his prime with only $11mil. At 34-35yrs old maybe

Players get paid for PPG. It's why there's almost no correlation between team salary and winning percentage. The GMs don't know how much players are worth. Given what we know about player salary, I assume most GMs would pay him a gigantic salary. If you wanted me to predict how much he would get paid, that would have been an entirely different discussion.
--
Edit: OK, I thought you were speaking to me before.

You're right, it's too bad we couldn't offer valuable advanced stat player Tyson chandler more than 14 million, then we'd really be rolling

You are correct about PPG being one of the largest factors in determining player salary, but it's not the only thing that makes GMs overpay. GM's also overpay for fake leaders and effort players that actually have no heart, a player whose production is easily replaced by a minimum contract player named Kenyon Martin. Hmm 14 million dollars vs. a minimum contract, now which player is financially more "efficient"? Fact is you're in no position to call a player overpaid while you believe at the same time chandler is not wildly overcompensated. This is why I cringe when I read your appraisal of melo's value. If you do admit Chandler makes about double what he should then maybe your argument will hold more weight.

So you're the final judge here? Anyway, it depends on what year you're talking about. When he was playing at the Olympian DPOY level, Chandler was not overpaid. This year, yeah, he is overpaid though.

I'm judge, jury, and executioner in the court of my own mind.

dk7th wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Dk I love what you bring to the table as far as insight into advance statistics and we agree on a lot of things specifically the importance of team chemistry which this team lacks in drones but it is often clouded by your crusade against Melo. It doesn't help that others egg you on instead of just ignoring you because then your exaggeration only get worse.

With that said I rather the Knicks not max out an aging Melo. With Phil in the mix we will have plenty of other more viable options that will help the the New York Knicks

i don't know about this crusade against melo. i just don't want the knicks to overpay a second time for him. i put a reasonable figure for him at 12-13 million. will you give me a specific figure? seems like nobody wants to volunteer a specific range which is weird to me.

actually no, fishmike said melo should be paid the max-- yet not even melo agrees with that since he has stated he is willing to take a pay cut.

maybe a figure of 17 million was put out there but i can't remember. that is way too much.

i like statistics and participating in the game thread against the celtics this past week was fun too. i said i was going to see how many bad shots he took and i counted ten. did they win? yes. can they afford to play that way in the playoffs? no. and they should be using these games as a tuneup to hone the team concept for an entire 48 minutes-- but they didn't. i may start participating on more of them as the season winds down.

unfortunately most of the nastier posters didn't participate in that thread and one that did said my poisonous observations were not welcome there either. oh well

point is i have been accused of not watching the games and therefore i lack the ability to judge a player. this is nonsense. my eyeballs are just fine they just are informed, as always, by the goal of being a legitimate title contender which the knicks have not been since melo came here and at too high a price.

so again i ask-- how much should melo be paid to play in a knick uniform?

I did like a million times aready $17-23 mil. Assuming you can increase salary in increments for year to year. Start of lower so we can afford to bring in talent ASAP. Then we own those players bird rights so we can go over the cap to sign our own players. If Melo misses a year to injury at the tail end at least we have talent to win despite him assuming we bring in a good coach like the bulls.

Same thing Miami did with Lebron Wade and bosh

I do not want Melo for anything in the $23-30m range. Not at his age

fishmike wrote:Just out of curiosity I checked Melo vs harden PER stats and Melo is clearly in a tier above. Hard is a more efficient scorer once he gets his shot off, but his are bloated... 50% more than than Melo. He assists more being a guard but Melo Rebs more. Not all stats are created even... So do tell me how your painting the picture that harden is clearly better than melo

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Dk I love what you bring to the table as far as insight into advance statistics and we agree on a lot of things specifically the importance of team chemistry which this team lacks in drones but it is often clouded by your crusade against Melo. It doesn't help that others egg you on instead of just ignoring you because then your exaggeration only get worse.

With that said I rather the Knicks not max out an aging Melo. With Phil in the mix we will have plenty of other more viable options that will help the the New York Knicks

i don't know about this crusade against melo. i just don't want the knicks to overpay a second time for him. i put a reasonable figure for him at 12-13 million. will you give me a specific figure? seems like nobody wants to volunteer a specific range which is weird to me.

actually no, fishmike said melo should be paid the max-- yet not even melo agrees with that since he has stated he is willing to take a pay cut.

maybe a figure of 17 million was put out there but i can't remember. that is way too much.

i like statistics and participating in the game thread against the celtics this past week was fun too. i said i was going to see how many bad shots he took and i counted ten. did they win? yes. can they afford to play that way in the playoffs? no. and they should be using these games as a tuneup to hone the team concept for an entire 48 minutes-- but they didn't. i may start participating on more of them as the season winds down.

unfortunately most of the nastier posters didn't participate in that thread and one that did said my poisonous observations were not welcome there either. oh well

point is i have been accused of not watching the games and therefore i lack the ability to judge a player. this is nonsense. my eyeballs are just fine they just are informed, as always, by the goal of being a legitimate title contender which the knicks have not been since melo came here and at too high a price.

so again i ask-- how much should melo be paid to play in a knick uniform?

Yeah, the idea that watching the game and looking at the stats are mutually exclusive is put forth by people who don't understand the stats or the game.

I know I don't don't understand them. Thems numburs too complicated for me. That's why I just side with the coaches, fans, writers and Gms just to keep my opinions mainstream.

That's understandable but they have little clue how much players are worth. That's why there's almost no correlation between payroll and salary. That may change with the increasing use of advanced metrics but up to now, GMs, fans, etc. truly have not been able to figure out how much players are worth. Almost all of what they pay for is just PPG.