SwishAndDish13 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

y2zipper wrote:

tkf wrote:

y2zipper wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:And you give up a lot of assets when you trade for the player

True, but if you get the RIGHT superstar, the assets hardly matter. Here's an example...

Two first-round picks, that must be used starting in 2013 and ending by 2017
2012 second-round pick Miami received from New Orleans
Future second-round pick Heat acquired from Oklahoma City
Cleveland can also swap first round picks with the Heat in 2012
A large trade exception($15 million or so) that the Cavs must use in trades for one calendar year.

Do you know what that list is?

That's what Cleveland got from Miami in exchange for LeBron James (raise your hand if you remember this was actually a sign-and-trade), and none of these assets matter because they were traded for the right superstar.

Obviously it's MUCH better to draft your superstar(s) (because really you need more than 1 these days). The reality is, most draft picks simply don't work out. However, draft picks aren't SO invaluable that you just throw them away for cap relief.

It's also usually pretty easy to tell whether your're good or bad and can give up draft picks, but miscalculating is dangergous.

exactly, if you trade for the right superstar, but here is the key, you either have to get him early ala harden and you don't spend as much acquiring him.. teams knew he was good, but not that good... Houston took a small gamble and it paid off, I say kudos to them...

or you get colusiongate and have a lebron fall in your lap... otherwiese these "true" superstars are never traded.. Dirk, Lebron, Kobe, wade, Duncan, those guys are not getting traded in their prime, they just aren't.. no matter how much they scream and yell... teams don't trade those guys... they either leave via FA... or they stay and win....

Carmelo forced a trade, but he is not in the class with these other guys... we traded way too much to get a Allstar player.. not a superstar. and it is killing us now...

James Harden isn't in the class of those players either.

The Melo trade isn't the issue. The Amare contract is. Donnie Walsh made a horrendous signing in 2010 when that money could have been better spent. That's the issue with the team.

BS. You can exclude Amare and we still have more money spent on our roster than half the teams in the league, including many good teams. That's just an excuse for the fact that the rest of the roster is poorly constructed.

We went over the cap to retain players or ones we acquired in a trade. The problem was not the Melo trade. It was the moves after. Picking up Billups for 14 mil then amnesty him. Wtf? Why pick it up to begin with. The Chandler move was awful given the roster and the fact that he is also injury prone. And. .here were are

Yeah, most of the trades after Melo have been bad, although the ones before him were bad too.
Tyson isn't really injury prone. He's just flu prone!

tkf wrote:

SwishAndDish13 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

y2zipper wrote:

tkf wrote:

y2zipper wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:And you give up a lot of assets when you trade for the player

True, but if you get the RIGHT superstar, the assets hardly matter. Here's an example...

Two first-round picks, that must be used starting in 2013 and ending by 2017
2012 second-round pick Miami received from New Orleans
Future second-round pick Heat acquired from Oklahoma City
Cleveland can also swap first round picks with the Heat in 2012
A large trade exception($15 million or so) that the Cavs must use in trades for one calendar year.

Do you know what that list is?

That's what Cleveland got from Miami in exchange for LeBron James (raise your hand if you remember this was actually a sign-and-trade), and none of these assets matter because they were traded for the right superstar.

Obviously it's MUCH better to draft your superstar(s) (because really you need more than 1 these days). The reality is, most draft picks simply don't work out. However, draft picks aren't SO invaluable that you just throw them away for cap relief.

It's also usually pretty easy to tell whether your're good or bad and can give up draft picks, but miscalculating is dangergous.

exactly, if you trade for the right superstar, but here is the key, you either have to get him early ala harden and you don't spend as much acquiring him.. teams knew he was good, but not that good... Houston took a small gamble and it paid off, I say kudos to them...

or you get colusiongate and have a lebron fall in your lap... otherwiese these "true" superstars are never traded.. Dirk, Lebron, Kobe, wade, Duncan, those guys are not getting traded in their prime, they just aren't.. no matter how much they scream and yell... teams don't trade those guys... they either leave via FA... or they stay and win....

Carmelo forced a trade, but he is not in the class with these other guys... we traded way too much to get a Allstar player.. not a superstar. and it is killing us now...

James Harden isn't in the class of those players either.

The Melo trade isn't the issue. The Amare contract is. Donnie Walsh made a horrendous signing in 2010 when that money could have been better spent. That's the issue with the team.

BS. You can exclude Amare and we still have more money spent on our roster than half the teams in the league, including many good teams. That's just an excuse for the fact that the rest of the roster is poorly constructed.

We went over the cap to retain players or ones we acquired in a trade. The problem was not the Melo trade. It was the moves after. Picking up Billups for 14 mil then amnesty him. Wtf? Why pick it up to begin with. The Chandler move was awful given the roster and the fact that he is also injury prone. And. .here were are

the trade was worse than all of those moves put together. the sooner fans come to terms with this the sooner the healing begins..

Strongly but respectfully disagree.

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

SwishAndDish13 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

y2zipper wrote:

tkf wrote:

y2zipper wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:And you give up a lot of assets when you trade for the player

True, but if you get the RIGHT superstar, the assets hardly matter. Here's an example...

Two first-round picks, that must be used starting in 2013 and ending by 2017
2012 second-round pick Miami received from New Orleans
Future second-round pick Heat acquired from Oklahoma City
Cleveland can also swap first round picks with the Heat in 2012
A large trade exception($15 million or so) that the Cavs must use in trades for one calendar year.

Do you know what that list is?

That's what Cleveland got from Miami in exchange for LeBron James (raise your hand if you remember this was actually a sign-and-trade), and none of these assets matter because they were traded for the right superstar.

Obviously it's MUCH better to draft your superstar(s) (because really you need more than 1 these days). The reality is, most draft picks simply don't work out. However, draft picks aren't SO invaluable that you just throw them away for cap relief.

It's also usually pretty easy to tell whether your're good or bad and can give up draft picks, but miscalculating is dangergous.

exactly, if you trade for the right superstar, but here is the key, you either have to get him early ala harden and you don't spend as much acquiring him.. teams knew he was good, but not that good... Houston took a small gamble and it paid off, I say kudos to them...

or you get colusiongate and have a lebron fall in your lap... otherwiese these "true" superstars are never traded.. Dirk, Lebron, Kobe, wade, Duncan, those guys are not getting traded in their prime, they just aren't.. no matter how much they scream and yell... teams don't trade those guys... they either leave via FA... or they stay and win....

Carmelo forced a trade, but he is not in the class with these other guys... we traded way too much to get a Allstar player.. not a superstar. and it is killing us now...

James Harden isn't in the class of those players either.

The Melo trade isn't the issue. The Amare contract is. Donnie Walsh made a horrendous signing in 2010 when that money could have been better spent. That's the issue with the team.

BS. You can exclude Amare and we still have more money spent on our roster than half the teams in the league, including many good teams. That's just an excuse for the fact that the rest of the roster is poorly constructed.

We went over the cap to retain players or ones we acquired in a trade. The problem was not the Melo trade. It was the moves after. Picking up Billups for 14 mil then amnesty him. Wtf? Why pick it up to begin with. The Chandler move was awful given the roster and the fact that he is also injury prone. And. .here were are

the trade was worse than all of those moves put together. the sooner fans come to terms with this the sooner the healing begins..

Strongly but respectfully disagree.

of course you do.... but the proof is in the pudding.. I'm sorry..

If you look at it in a 25 game vaccuum i agree. If you judge based on our most recent full season i will argue the opposite. I don't like small sample sizes to judge anything. I think this team would be different if management made better decisions after the trade. But i'm not here to get into this again. You know where i stand, and think i'm an idiot for having that position. I know where you stand, and think you are an idiot as well. Agree to disagree.

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

SwishAndDish13 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

y2zipper wrote:

tkf wrote:

y2zipper wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:And you give up a lot of assets when you trade for the player

True, but if you get the RIGHT superstar, the assets hardly matter. Here's an example...

Two first-round picks, that must be used starting in 2013 and ending by 2017
2012 second-round pick Miami received from New Orleans
Future second-round pick Heat acquired from Oklahoma City
Cleveland can also swap first round picks with the Heat in 2012
A large trade exception($15 million or so) that the Cavs must use in trades for one calendar year.

Do you know what that list is?

That's what Cleveland got from Miami in exchange for LeBron James (raise your hand if you remember this was actually a sign-and-trade), and none of these assets matter because they were traded for the right superstar.

Obviously it's MUCH better to draft your superstar(s) (because really you need more than 1 these days). The reality is, most draft picks simply don't work out. However, draft picks aren't SO invaluable that you just throw them away for cap relief.

It's also usually pretty easy to tell whether your're good or bad and can give up draft picks, but miscalculating is dangergous.

exactly, if you trade for the right superstar, but here is the key, you either have to get him early ala harden and you don't spend as much acquiring him.. teams knew he was good, but not that good... Houston took a small gamble and it paid off, I say kudos to them...

or you get colusiongate and have a lebron fall in your lap... otherwiese these "true" superstars are never traded.. Dirk, Lebron, Kobe, wade, Duncan, those guys are not getting traded in their prime, they just aren't.. no matter how much they scream and yell... teams don't trade those guys... they either leave via FA... or they stay and win....

Carmelo forced a trade, but he is not in the class with these other guys... we traded way too much to get a Allstar player.. not a superstar. and it is killing us now...

James Harden isn't in the class of those players either.

The Melo trade isn't the issue. The Amare contract is. Donnie Walsh made a horrendous signing in 2010 when that money could have been better spent. That's the issue with the team.

BS. You can exclude Amare and we still have more money spent on our roster than half the teams in the league, including many good teams. That's just an excuse for the fact that the rest of the roster is poorly constructed.

We went over the cap to retain players or ones we acquired in a trade. The problem was not the Melo trade. It was the moves after. Picking up Billups for 14 mil then amnesty him. Wtf? Why pick it up to begin with. The Chandler move was awful given the roster and the fact that he is also injury prone. And. .here were are

the trade was worse than all of those moves put together. the sooner fans come to terms with this the sooner the healing begins..

Strongly but respectfully disagree.

of course you do.... but the proof is in the pudding.. I'm sorry..

If you look at it in a 25 game vaccuum i agree. If you judge based on our most recent full season i will argue the opposite. I don't like small sample sizes to judge anything. I think this team would be different if management made better decisions after the trade. But i'm not here to get into this again. You know where i stand, and think i'm an idiot for having that position. I know where you stand, and think you are an idiot as well. Agree to disagree.

I guess it depends on what you define as success. Last season was a success at 54 wins and advance one round. The point is with melo he will eat a ton of cap and no room to improve as we gave away so much over the years. At 7-17 its a small sample but its not very encouraging:

JR was a big part of last season and he imploded in crunch time.
Felton is a capable back up. Not much more
Priggy is old
Tyson is vulnerable
AMare is basically shot.

Last season a lot came togther for us and we caught a lot of breaks. This season its not. In some respects the addition of Bargnani was to improve the roster and what ever Amare can give us would be a bonus.

Maybe you see last year as the baseline and this year has just been "unlucky"?

We just don't seem to be actig like a good team struggling. Those kind of teams start .500 which is no prize BTW, but they gut out some wins and generally lose some close games. This team is not like that. There is someting else going on and it got "UGLY" written all over it.

BTW, I prefer to hope I am wrong!!

Knixkik wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

SwishAndDish13 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

y2zipper wrote:

tkf wrote:

y2zipper wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:And you give up a lot of assets when you trade for the player

True, but if you get the RIGHT superstar, the assets hardly matter. Here's an example...

Two first-round picks, that must be used starting in 2013 and ending by 2017
2012 second-round pick Miami received from New Orleans
Future second-round pick Heat acquired from Oklahoma City
Cleveland can also swap first round picks with the Heat in 2012
A large trade exception($15 million or so) that the Cavs must use in trades for one calendar year.

Do you know what that list is?

That's what Cleveland got from Miami in exchange for LeBron James (raise your hand if you remember this was actually a sign-and-trade), and none of these assets matter because they were traded for the right superstar.

Obviously it's MUCH better to draft your superstar(s) (because really you need more than 1 these days). The reality is, most draft picks simply don't work out. However, draft picks aren't SO invaluable that you just throw them away for cap relief.

It's also usually pretty easy to tell whether your're good or bad and can give up draft picks, but miscalculating is dangergous.

exactly, if you trade for the right superstar, but here is the key, you either have to get him early ala harden and you don't spend as much acquiring him.. teams knew he was good, but not that good... Houston took a small gamble and it paid off, I say kudos to them...

or you get colusiongate and have a lebron fall in your lap... otherwiese these "true" superstars are never traded.. Dirk, Lebron, Kobe, wade, Duncan, those guys are not getting traded in their prime, they just aren't.. no matter how much they scream and yell... teams don't trade those guys... they either leave via FA... or they stay and win....

Carmelo forced a trade, but he is not in the class with these other guys... we traded way too much to get a Allstar player.. not a superstar. and it is killing us now...

James Harden isn't in the class of those players either.

The Melo trade isn't the issue. The Amare contract is. Donnie Walsh made a horrendous signing in 2010 when that money could have been better spent. That's the issue with the team.

BS. You can exclude Amare and we still have more money spent on our roster than half the teams in the league, including many good teams. That's just an excuse for the fact that the rest of the roster is poorly constructed.

We went over the cap to retain players or ones we acquired in a trade. The problem was not the Melo trade. It was the moves after. Picking up Billups for 14 mil then amnesty him. Wtf? Why pick it up to begin with. The Chandler move was awful given the roster and the fact that he is also injury prone. And. .here were are

the trade was worse than all of those moves put together. the sooner fans come to terms with this the sooner the healing begins..

Strongly but respectfully disagree.

of course you do.... but the proof is in the pudding.. I'm sorry..

If you look at it in a 25 game vaccuum i agree. If you judge based on our most recent full season i will argue the opposite. I don't like small sample sizes to judge anything. I think this team would be different if management made better decisions after the trade. But i'm not here to get into this again. You know where i stand, and think i'm an idiot for having that position. I know where you stand, and think you are an idiot as well. Agree to disagree.

If you don't like the small sample size, you should look at the entire Melo era then, not just a small sample that looks favorable for Melo (the last regular season).

I do. Take any of the 3 seasons we had with Melo. Look at the regular season record and being in the playoffs each year. Now take any season prior to Melo. Look at the regular season records. No playoffs in forever.

I know your next argument will be lack of playoff success, fine i get that. But i want to get there first then figure out how to improve from there. With Melo we have got there each season, and poor management decisions have not allowed us to continue to move the needle in the right direction. Take any season before Melo and any season after Melo and look at the difference. If the goal was to win a title in the past 3 years, we failed miserably (as did 28 other teams), but no one can argue we didn't improve over the entire Melo era.

My next argument definitely isn't lack of playoff success. I was just playing devil's advocate. I believe there is good evidence that there are far better ways to evaluate individual players than to look at the entire team's record anyway. Even if we were to look at the team's record, I wouldn't use the prior decade as a comparison group. You could put a bunch of top NBDL player's together and they'd probably do almost as well as that Knicks in that decade.

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

SwishAndDish13 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

y2zipper wrote:

tkf wrote:

y2zipper wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:And you give up a lot of assets when you trade for the player

True, but if you get the RIGHT superstar, the assets hardly matter. Here's an example...

Two first-round picks, that must be used starting in 2013 and ending by 2017
2012 second-round pick Miami received from New Orleans
Future second-round pick Heat acquired from Oklahoma City
Cleveland can also swap first round picks with the Heat in 2012
A large trade exception($15 million or so) that the Cavs must use in trades for one calendar year.

Do you know what that list is?

That's what Cleveland got from Miami in exchange for LeBron James (raise your hand if you remember this was actually a sign-and-trade), and none of these assets matter because they were traded for the right superstar.

Obviously it's MUCH better to draft your superstar(s) (because really you need more than 1 these days). The reality is, most draft picks simply don't work out. However, draft picks aren't SO invaluable that you just throw them away for cap relief.

It's also usually pretty easy to tell whether your're good or bad and can give up draft picks, but miscalculating is dangergous.

exactly, if you trade for the right superstar, but here is the key, you either have to get him early ala harden and you don't spend as much acquiring him.. teams knew he was good, but not that good... Houston took a small gamble and it paid off, I say kudos to them...

or you get colusiongate and have a lebron fall in your lap... otherwiese these "true" superstars are never traded.. Dirk, Lebron, Kobe, wade, Duncan, those guys are not getting traded in their prime, they just aren't.. no matter how much they scream and yell... teams don't trade those guys... they either leave via FA... or they stay and win....

Carmelo forced a trade, but he is not in the class with these other guys... we traded way too much to get a Allstar player.. not a superstar. and it is killing us now...

James Harden isn't in the class of those players either.

The Melo trade isn't the issue. The Amare contract is. Donnie Walsh made a horrendous signing in 2010 when that money could have been better spent. That's the issue with the team.

BS. You can exclude Amare and we still have more money spent on our roster than half the teams in the league, including many good teams. That's just an excuse for the fact that the rest of the roster is poorly constructed.

We went over the cap to retain players or ones we acquired in a trade. The problem was not the Melo trade. It was the moves after. Picking up Billups for 14 mil then amnesty him. Wtf? Why pick it up to begin with. The Chandler move was awful given the roster and the fact that he is also injury prone. And. .here were are

the trade was worse than all of those moves put together. the sooner fans come to terms with this the sooner the healing begins..

Strongly but respectfully disagree.

of course you do.... but the proof is in the pudding.. I'm sorry..

If you look at it in a 25 game vaccuum i agree. If you judge based on our most recent full season i will argue the opposite. I don't like small sample sizes to judge anything. I think this team would be different if management made better decisions after the trade. But i'm not here to get into this again. You know where i stand, and think i'm an idiot for having that position. I know where you stand, and think you are an idiot as well. Agree to disagree.

If you don't like the small sample size, you should look at the entire Melo era then, not just a small sample that looks favorable for Melo (the last regular season).

I do. Take any of the 3 seasons we had with Melo. Look at the regular season record and being in the playoffs each year. Now take any season prior to Melo. Look at the regular season records. No playoffs in forever.

I know your next argument will be lack of playoff success, fine i get that. But i want to get there first then figure out how to improve from there. With Melo we have got there each season, and poor management decisions have not allowed us to continue to move the needle in the right direction. Take any season before Melo and any season after Melo and look at the difference. If the goal was to win a title in the past 3 years, we failed miserably (as did 28 other teams), but no one can argue we didn't improve over the entire Melo era.

My next argument definitely isn't lack of playoff success. I was just playing devil's advocate. I believe there is good evidence that there are far better ways to evaluate individual players than to look at the entire team's record anyway. Even if we were to look at the team's record, I wouldn't use the prior decade as a comparison group. You could put a bunch of top NBDL player's together and they'd probably do almost as well as that Knicks in that decade.

I understand that. I knew you were playing devil's advocate, i just thought the playoff thing was coming next as part of it. I just don't look at things as championship or bust, flexbility or bust. I look at Melo's tenure here as 'did he significantly improve what this team looks like on the floor.' I look at the trade like 'like how does our offer compare to his market value at the time, or other reported offers.' I can be a bit shortsighted, but i was done hoping we could turn our mid lottery picks into franchise players (Gallo, Hill, Frye, Sweetney). We needed a change of direction, and we got that with Melo. If in a year we need another change of direction, thats fine, but i still don't regret the trade, we saw a fun run of basketball last season. I regret many other decisions made by management, but not that one.

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

SwishAndDish13 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

y2zipper wrote:

tkf wrote:

y2zipper wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:And you give up a lot of assets when you trade for the player

True, but if you get the RIGHT superstar, the assets hardly matter. Here's an example...

Two first-round picks, that must be used starting in 2013 and ending by 2017
2012 second-round pick Miami received from New Orleans
Future second-round pick Heat acquired from Oklahoma City
Cleveland can also swap first round picks with the Heat in 2012
A large trade exception($15 million or so) that the Cavs must use in trades for one calendar year.

Do you know what that list is?

That's what Cleveland got from Miami in exchange for LeBron James (raise your hand if you remember this was actually a sign-and-trade), and none of these assets matter because they were traded for the right superstar.

Obviously it's MUCH better to draft your superstar(s) (because really you need more than 1 these days). The reality is, most draft picks simply don't work out. However, draft picks aren't SO invaluable that you just throw them away for cap relief.

It's also usually pretty easy to tell whether your're good or bad and can give up draft picks, but miscalculating is dangergous.

exactly, if you trade for the right superstar, but here is the key, you either have to get him early ala harden and you don't spend as much acquiring him.. teams knew he was good, but not that good... Houston took a small gamble and it paid off, I say kudos to them...

or you get colusiongate and have a lebron fall in your lap... otherwiese these "true" superstars are never traded.. Dirk, Lebron, Kobe, wade, Duncan, those guys are not getting traded in their prime, they just aren't.. no matter how much they scream and yell... teams don't trade those guys... they either leave via FA... or they stay and win....

Carmelo forced a trade, but he is not in the class with these other guys... we traded way too much to get a Allstar player.. not a superstar. and it is killing us now...

James Harden isn't in the class of those players either.

The Melo trade isn't the issue. The Amare contract is. Donnie Walsh made a horrendous signing in 2010 when that money could have been better spent. That's the issue with the team.

BS. You can exclude Amare and we still have more money spent on our roster than half the teams in the league, including many good teams. That's just an excuse for the fact that the rest of the roster is poorly constructed.

We went over the cap to retain players or ones we acquired in a trade. The problem was not the Melo trade. It was the moves after. Picking up Billups for 14 mil then amnesty him. Wtf? Why pick it up to begin with. The Chandler move was awful given the roster and the fact that he is also injury prone. And. .here were are

the trade was worse than all of those moves put together. the sooner fans come to terms with this the sooner the healing begins..

Strongly but respectfully disagree.

of course you do.... but the proof is in the pudding.. I'm sorry..

If you look at it in a 25 game vaccuum i agree. If you judge based on our most recent full season i will argue the opposite. I don't like small sample sizes to judge anything. I think this team would be different if management made better decisions after the trade. But i'm not here to get into this again. You know where i stand, and think i'm an idiot for having that position. I know where you stand, and think you are an idiot as well. Agree to disagree.

If you don't like the small sample size, you should look at the entire Melo era then, not just a small sample that looks favorable for Melo (the last regular season).

I do. Take any of the 3 seasons we had with Melo. Look at the regular season record and being in the playoffs each year. Now take any season prior to Melo. Look at the regular season records. No playoffs in forever.

I know your next argument will be lack of playoff success, fine i get that. But i want to get there first then figure out how to improve from there. With Melo we have got there each season, and poor management decisions have not allowed us to continue to move the needle in the right direction. Take any season before Melo and any season after Melo and look at the difference. If the goal was to win a title in the past 3 years, we failed miserably (as did 28 other teams), but no one can argue we didn't improve over the entire Melo era.

My next argument definitely isn't lack of playoff success. I was just playing devil's advocate. I believe there is good evidence that there are far better ways to evaluate individual players than to look at the entire team's record anyway. Even if we were to look at the team's record, I wouldn't use the prior decade as a comparison group. You could put a bunch of top NBDL player's together and they'd probably do almost as well as that Knicks in that decade.

exactly, we didn't make that huge trade to get carmelo just to be better than the past ugly decade of knicks ball, we got him to be elite..... the team before the trade was already better than the last decade of knicks ball..

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

SwishAndDish13 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

y2zipper wrote:

tkf wrote:

y2zipper wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:And you give up a lot of assets when you trade for the player

True, but if you get the RIGHT superstar, the assets hardly matter. Here's an example...

Two first-round picks, that must be used starting in 2013 and ending by 2017
2012 second-round pick Miami received from New Orleans
Future second-round pick Heat acquired from Oklahoma City
Cleveland can also swap first round picks with the Heat in 2012
A large trade exception($15 million or so) that the Cavs must use in trades for one calendar year.

Do you know what that list is?

That's what Cleveland got from Miami in exchange for LeBron James (raise your hand if you remember this was actually a sign-and-trade), and none of these assets matter because they were traded for the right superstar.

Obviously it's MUCH better to draft your superstar(s) (because really you need more than 1 these days). The reality is, most draft picks simply don't work out. However, draft picks aren't SO invaluable that you just throw them away for cap relief.

It's also usually pretty easy to tell whether your're good or bad and can give up draft picks, but miscalculating is dangergous.

exactly, if you trade for the right superstar, but here is the key, you either have to get him early ala harden and you don't spend as much acquiring him.. teams knew he was good, but not that good... Houston took a small gamble and it paid off, I say kudos to them...

or you get colusiongate and have a lebron fall in your lap... otherwiese these "true" superstars are never traded.. Dirk, Lebron, Kobe, wade, Duncan, those guys are not getting traded in their prime, they just aren't.. no matter how much they scream and yell... teams don't trade those guys... they either leave via FA... or they stay and win....

Carmelo forced a trade, but he is not in the class with these other guys... we traded way too much to get a Allstar player.. not a superstar. and it is killing us now...

James Harden isn't in the class of those players either.

The Melo trade isn't the issue. The Amare contract is. Donnie Walsh made a horrendous signing in 2010 when that money could have been better spent. That's the issue with the team.

BS. You can exclude Amare and we still have more money spent on our roster than half the teams in the league, including many good teams. That's just an excuse for the fact that the rest of the roster is poorly constructed.

We went over the cap to retain players or ones we acquired in a trade. The problem was not the Melo trade. It was the moves after. Picking up Billups for 14 mil then amnesty him. Wtf? Why pick it up to begin with. The Chandler move was awful given the roster and the fact that he is also injury prone. And. .here were are

the trade was worse than all of those moves put together. the sooner fans come to terms with this the sooner the healing begins..

Strongly but respectfully disagree.

of course you do.... but the proof is in the pudding.. I'm sorry..

If you look at it in a 25 game vaccuum i agree. If you judge based on our most recent full season i will argue the opposite. I don't like small sample sizes to judge anything. I think this team would be different if management made better decisions after the trade. But i'm not here to get into this again. You know where i stand, and think i'm an idiot for having that position. I know where you stand, and think you are an idiot as well. Agree to disagree.

If you don't like the small sample size, you should look at the entire Melo era then, not just a small sample that looks favorable for Melo (the last regular season).

I do. Take any of the 3 seasons we had with Melo. Look at the regular season record and being in the playoffs each year. Now take any season prior to Melo. Look at the regular season records. No playoffs in forever.

I know your next argument will be lack of playoff success, fine i get that. But i want to get there first then figure out how to improve from there. With Melo we have got there each season, and poor management decisions have not allowed us to continue to move the needle in the right direction. Take any season before Melo and any season after Melo and look at the difference. If the goal was to win a title in the past 3 years, we failed miserably (as did 28 other teams), but no one can argue we didn't improve over the entire Melo era.

lets be open here.. before the trade, that team, that young team with amare was 28-26, after the trade we went 14-14.. that was a playoff team before the carmelo trade.

saying we haven't been to the playoffs in forever is not a great benchmark to use when defending this carmelo led mess.... we got carmelo to become elite.. that has failed and failed miserable.. we are not a good team that is struggling.. we are a bad team that is doing what bad teams do.. carmelo is not that answer, did you see how clueless he was at the end of the game.. both he and woodson... there is a lot of ugly going on here and your constant defense of carmelo and this mess is mind boggling..

Ok so we were 28-26 with Amare playing MVP basketball. If that team was barely a playoff team when he was an MVP candidate, i can only imagine what happens after that season when he no longer is. You are quick to praise the Knicks when he was an MVP candidate as a team on the rise, yet ignore what he became after Melo got here. We got Melo to become elite, yes, so if we lose the other half of that formula, not sure how it gets blamed on him. Let's put it this way, i think (and this is a guess) the Knicks were a 25-30 (pretend it was an 82 game season, not 66 or whatever) win team the following year without a healthy, elite Amare. With Melo we were a 36 win team (translated to 45 wins or so). Last year we were a 54 win team. I think we were 20 games worse had we not made the trade and stayed "on track." Again, its a guess, just like you are guessing we might have turned those assets into something different which would have made up for Amare losing his game, and kept our flexibility open in the future. Fact is, Amare losing his game really, hurt this team. You have no way of knowing what this team would look like if he was still a star. If you want to blame it all on Melo fine, but i will put some of the blame on the injury of Stoudemire. I can't say this was a definite contender with him healthy, but you can't say it isn't either.

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

SwishAndDish13 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

y2zipper wrote:

tkf wrote:

y2zipper wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:And you give up a lot of assets when you trade for the player

True, but if you get the RIGHT superstar, the assets hardly matter. Here's an example...

Two first-round picks, that must be used starting in 2013 and ending by 2017
2012 second-round pick Miami received from New Orleans
Future second-round pick Heat acquired from Oklahoma City
Cleveland can also swap first round picks with the Heat in 2012
A large trade exception($15 million or so) that the Cavs must use in trades for one calendar year.

Do you know what that list is?

That's what Cleveland got from Miami in exchange for LeBron James (raise your hand if you remember this was actually a sign-and-trade), and none of these assets matter because they were traded for the right superstar.

Obviously it's MUCH better to draft your superstar(s) (because really you need more than 1 these days). The reality is, most draft picks simply don't work out. However, draft picks aren't SO invaluable that you just throw them away for cap relief.

It's also usually pretty easy to tell whether your're good or bad and can give up draft picks, but miscalculating is dangergous.

exactly, if you trade for the right superstar, but here is the key, you either have to get him early ala harden and you don't spend as much acquiring him.. teams knew he was good, but not that good... Houston took a small gamble and it paid off, I say kudos to them...

or you get colusiongate and have a lebron fall in your lap... otherwiese these "true" superstars are never traded.. Dirk, Lebron, Kobe, wade, Duncan, those guys are not getting traded in their prime, they just aren't.. no matter how much they scream and yell... teams don't trade those guys... they either leave via FA... or they stay and win....

Carmelo forced a trade, but he is not in the class with these other guys... we traded way too much to get a Allstar player.. not a superstar. and it is killing us now...

James Harden isn't in the class of those players either.

The Melo trade isn't the issue. The Amare contract is. Donnie Walsh made a horrendous signing in 2010 when that money could have been better spent. That's the issue with the team.

BS. You can exclude Amare and we still have more money spent on our roster than half the teams in the league, including many good teams. That's just an excuse for the fact that the rest of the roster is poorly constructed.

We went over the cap to retain players or ones we acquired in a trade. The problem was not the Melo trade. It was the moves after. Picking up Billups for 14 mil then amnesty him. Wtf? Why pick it up to begin with. The Chandler move was awful given the roster and the fact that he is also injury prone. And. .here were are

the trade was worse than all of those moves put together. the sooner fans come to terms with this the sooner the healing begins..

Strongly but respectfully disagree.

of course you do.... but the proof is in the pudding.. I'm sorry..

If you look at it in a 25 game vaccuum i agree. If you judge based on our most recent full season i will argue the opposite. I don't like small sample sizes to judge anything. I think this team would be different if management made better decisions after the trade. But i'm not here to get into this again. You know where i stand, and think i'm an idiot for having that position. I know where you stand, and think you are an idiot as well. Agree to disagree.

If you don't like the small sample size, you should look at the entire Melo era then, not just a small sample that looks favorable for Melo (the last regular season).

I do. Take any of the 3 seasons we had with Melo. Look at the regular season record and being in the playoffs each year. Now take any season prior to Melo. Look at the regular season records. No playoffs in forever.

I know your next argument will be lack of playoff success, fine i get that. But i want to get there first then figure out how to improve from there. With Melo we have got there each season, and poor management decisions have not allowed us to continue to move the needle in the right direction. Take any season before Melo and any season after Melo and look at the difference. If the goal was to win a title in the past 3 years, we failed miserably (as did 28 other teams), but no one can argue we didn't improve over the entire Melo era.

lets be open here.. before the trade, that team, that young team with amare was 28-26, after the trade we went 14-14.. that was a playoff team before the carmelo trade.

saying we haven't been to the playoffs in forever is not a great benchmark to use when defending this carmelo led mess.... we got carmelo to become elite.. that has failed and failed miserable.. we are not a good team that is struggling.. we are a bad team that is doing what bad teams do.. carmelo is not that answer, did you see how clueless he was at the end of the game.. both he and woodson... there is a lot of ugly going on here and your constant defense of carmelo and this mess is mind boggling..

Ok so we were 28-26 with Amare playing MVP basketball. If that team was barely a playoff team when he was an MVP candidate, i can only imagine what happens after that season when he no longer is. You are quick to praise the Knicks when he was an MVP candidate as a team on the rise, yet ignore what he became after Melo got here. We got Melo to become elite, yes, so if we lose the other half of that formula, not sure how it gets blamed on him. Let's put it this way, i think (and this is a guess) the Knicks were a 25-30 (pretend it was an 82 game season, not 66 or whatever) win team the following year without a healthy, elite Amare. With Melo we were a 36 win team (translated to 45 wins or so). Last year we were a 54 win team. I think we were 20 games worse had we not made the trade and stayed "on track." Again, its a guess, just like you are guessing we might have turned those assets into something different which would have made up for Amare losing his game, and kept our flexibility open in the future. Fact is, Amare losing his game really, hurt this team. You have no way of knowing what this team would look like if he was still a star. If you want to blame it all on Melo fine, but i will put some of the blame on the injury of Stoudemire. I can't say this was a definite contender with him healthy, but you can't say it isn't either.

what you are doing is spinning things to the absolute worse scenario... what if amare doesn't get hurt, or his knees last longer than what? you see all of your scenarios with carmelo end with roses, without him, the knicks world falls apart... I was just using what actually happened and projected from there, we were 28-26, why should I think things were going to fall apart... what evidence was there of that? this is where you continually fall short?

We got Melo to become elite, yes, so if we lose the other half of that formula, not sure how it gets blamed on him.

I blame him for being a greedy douchebag and forcing his way here know what we had to give up... even with a healthy amare this team is not a contender.. you talent, you need a TEAM.. the trade for carmelo ruined that, and that fat ass donkey didn't care!!!

I think we were 20 games worse had we not made the trade and stayed "on track." Again, its a guess, just like you are guessing we might have turned those assets into something different which would have made up for Amare losing his game, and kept our flexibility open in the future. Fact is, Amare losing his game really, hurt this team.

And I think a meteor the size of texas is going to hit the earth tomorrow and kill all mankind... but I have no proof of that whatsoever... it is as far fetched as what you are saying.. what evidence is there that would lead you to believe that a team with a guy playing MVP ball as you stated, two young players that were improving by the game, picks, and cap space would all of a sudden go from a team that was 28-26 to a team that would have been 8-46 the following year? see how silly that sounds!!!

what I do have is evidence tho, that with carmelo, that team went 14-14..lets start with that.... if you are going to project out at least start with numbers that are real and scenarios that are real...You had no clue back then that amare knees would have gone out this early.. and if they had, then I guess we could have amnestied amare right? again, we didn't know there would be an amnesty, but what the hell, you are talking hindsight, I might as well too..

Fact is, Amare losing his game really, hurt this team. You have no way of knowing what this team would look like if he was still a star. If you want to blame it all on Melo fine, but i will put some of the blame on the injury of Stoudemire. I can't say this was a definite contender with him healthy, but you can't say it isn't either.

this team never had enough talent with those two.. we saw them finish the season, healthy at 14-14 and they struggled together, a lot... amare hurt this team, but his injury didn't make us trash... the lack of flexibility, lack of talent, and now lack of picks, not only hurt this team and made us bad, but it hurt our future.. until you realize this and stop carrying carmelo's bags you will never truly identify the problem...

Again, respectfully disagree. Your strong hate for Melo clouds your judgment. We had assets (fields, lin) that we got no return on. That's poor management. Would it have been nice to acquire Melo in the offseason, yes. But expecting him to turn down a max contract extension and go into an uncertain lockout with no contract is not realistic. And saying Amare may not of get hurt otherwise is not realistic. You have every right to dislike Melo, it is preference. But you hate him more than anyone in the world, which is just sad.

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

SwishAndDish13 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

y2zipper wrote:

tkf wrote:

y2zipper wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:And you give up a lot of assets when you trade for the player

True, but if you get the RIGHT superstar, the assets hardly matter. Here's an example...

Two first-round picks, that must be used starting in 2013 and ending by 2017
2012 second-round pick Miami received from New Orleans
Future second-round pick Heat acquired from Oklahoma City
Cleveland can also swap first round picks with the Heat in 2012
A large trade exception($15 million or so) that the Cavs must use in trades for one calendar year.

Do you know what that list is?

That's what Cleveland got from Miami in exchange for LeBron James (raise your hand if you remember this was actually a sign-and-trade), and none of these assets matter because they were traded for the right superstar.

Obviously it's MUCH better to draft your superstar(s) (because really you need more than 1 these days). The reality is, most draft picks simply don't work out. However, draft picks aren't SO invaluable that you just throw them away for cap relief.

It's also usually pretty easy to tell whether your're good or bad and can give up draft picks, but miscalculating is dangergous.

exactly, if you trade for the right superstar, but here is the key, you either have to get him early ala harden and you don't spend as much acquiring him.. teams knew he was good, but not that good... Houston took a small gamble and it paid off, I say kudos to them...

or you get colusiongate and have a lebron fall in your lap... otherwiese these "true" superstars are never traded.. Dirk, Lebron, Kobe, wade, Duncan, those guys are not getting traded in their prime, they just aren't.. no matter how much they scream and yell... teams don't trade those guys... they either leave via FA... or they stay and win....

Carmelo forced a trade, but he is not in the class with these other guys... we traded way too much to get a Allstar player.. not a superstar. and it is killing us now...

James Harden isn't in the class of those players either.

The Melo trade isn't the issue. The Amare contract is. Donnie Walsh made a horrendous signing in 2010 when that money could have been better spent. That's the issue with the team.

BS. You can exclude Amare and we still have more money spent on our roster than half the teams in the league, including many good teams. That's just an excuse for the fact that the rest of the roster is poorly constructed.

We went over the cap to retain players or ones we acquired in a trade. The problem was not the Melo trade. It was the moves after. Picking up Billups for 14 mil then amnesty him. Wtf? Why pick it up to begin with. The Chandler move was awful given the roster and the fact that he is also injury prone. And. .here were are

the trade was worse than all of those moves put together. the sooner fans come to terms with this the sooner the healing begins..

Strongly but respectfully disagree.

of course you do.... but the proof is in the pudding.. I'm sorry..

If you look at it in a 25 game vaccuum i agree. If you judge based on our most recent full season i will argue the opposite. I don't like small sample sizes to judge anything. I think this team would be different if management made better decisions after the trade. But i'm not here to get into this again. You know where i stand, and think i'm an idiot for having that position. I know where you stand, and think you are an idiot as well. Agree to disagree.

If you don't like the small sample size, you should look at the entire Melo era then, not just a small sample that looks favorable for Melo (the last regular season).

I do. Take any of the 3 seasons we had with Melo. Look at the regular season record and being in the playoffs each year. Now take any season prior to Melo. Look at the regular season records. No playoffs in forever.

I know your next argument will be lack of playoff success, fine i get that. But i want to get there first then figure out how to improve from there. With Melo we have got there each season, and poor management decisions have not allowed us to continue to move the needle in the right direction. Take any season before Melo and any season after Melo and look at the difference. If the goal was to win a title in the past 3 years, we failed miserably (as did 28 other teams), but no one can argue we didn't improve over the entire Melo era.

lets be open here.. before the trade, that team, that young team with amare was 28-26, after the trade we went 14-14.. that was a playoff team before the carmelo trade.

saying we haven't been to the playoffs in forever is not a great benchmark to use when defending this carmelo led mess.... we got carmelo to become elite.. that has failed and failed miserable.. we are not a good team that is struggling.. we are a bad team that is doing what bad teams do.. carmelo is not that answer, did you see how clueless he was at the end of the game.. both he and woodson... there is a lot of ugly going on here and your constant defense of carmelo and this mess is mind boggling..

Ok so we were 28-26 with Amare playing MVP basketball. If that team was barely a playoff team when he was an MVP candidate, i can only imagine what happens after that season when he no longer is. You are quick to praise the Knicks when he was an MVP candidate as a team on the rise, yet ignore what he became after Melo got here. We got Melo to become elite, yes, so if we lose the other half of that formula, not sure how it gets blamed on him. Let's put it this way, i think (and this is a guess) the Knicks were a 25-30 (pretend it was an 82 game season, not 66 or whatever) win team the following year without a healthy, elite Amare. With Melo we were a 36 win team (translated to 45 wins or so). Last year we were a 54 win team. I think we were 20 games worse had we not made the trade and stayed "on track." Again, its a guess, just like you are guessing we might have turned those assets into something different which would have made up for Amare losing his game, and kept our flexibility open in the future. Fact is, Amare losing his game really, hurt this team. You have no way of knowing what this team would look like if he was still a star. If you want to blame it all on Melo fine, but i will put some of the blame on the injury of Stoudemire. I can't say this was a definite contender with him healthy, but you can't say it isn't either.

what you are doing is spinning things to the absolute worse scenario... what if amare doesn't get hurt, or his knees last longer than what? you see all of your scenarios with carmelo end with roses, without him, the knicks world falls apart... I was just using what actually happened and projected from there, we were 28-26, why should I think things were going to fall apart... what evidence was there of that? this is where you continually fall short?

We got Melo to become elite, yes, so if we lose the other half of that formula, not sure how it gets blamed on him.

I blame him for being a greedy douchebag and forcing his way here know what we had to give up... even with a healthy amare this team is not a contender.. you talent, you need a TEAM.. the trade for carmelo ruined that, and that fat ass donkey didn't care!!!

I think we were 20 games worse had we not made the trade and stayed "on track." Again, its a guess, just like you are guessing we might have turned those assets into something different which would have made up for Amare losing his game, and kept our flexibility open in the future. Fact is, Amare losing his game really, hurt this team.

And I think a meteor the size of texas is going to hit the earth tomorrow and kill all mankind... but I have no proof of that whatsoever... it is as far fetched as what you are saying.. what evidence is there that would lead you to believe that a team with a guy playing MVP ball as you stated, two young players that were improving by the game, picks, and cap space would all of a sudden go from a team that was 28-26 to a team that would have been 8-46 the following year? see how silly that sounds!!!

what I do have is evidence tho, that with carmelo, that team went 14-14..lets start with that.... if you are going to project out at least start with numbers that are real and scenarios that are real...You had no clue back then that amare knees would have gone out this early.. and if they had, then I guess we could have amnestied amare right? again, we didn't know there would be an amnesty, but what the hell, you are talking hindsight, I might as well too..

Fact is, Amare losing his game really, hurt this team. You have no way of knowing what this team would look like if he was still a star. If you want to blame it all on Melo fine, but i will put some of the blame on the injury of Stoudemire. I can't say this was a definite contender with him healthy, but you can't say it isn't either.

this team never had enough talent with those two.. we saw them finish the season, healthy at 14-14 and they struggled together, a lot... amare hurt this team, but his injury didn't make us trash... the lack of flexibility, lack of talent, and now lack of picks, not only hurt this team and made us bad, but it hurt our future.. until you realize this and stop carrying carmelo's bags you will never truly identify the problem...

Again, respectfully disagree. Your strong hate for Melo clouds your judgment. We had assets (fields, lin) that we got no return on. That's poor management. Would it have been nice to acquire Melo in the offseason, yes. But expecting him to turn down a max contract extension and go into an uncertain lockout with no contract is not realistic. And saying Amare may not of get hurt otherwise is not realistic. You have every right to dislike Melo, it is preference. But you hate him more than anyone in the world, which is just sad.

again. back to carmelo.. it is not hate, the guy is a bafoon, and an idiot and an overpaid, one dimensional bozo... sorry.

Haha if thats not hate, i don't know what is...

SwishAndDish13 wrote:

We got Melo to become elite, yes, so if we lose the other half of that formula, not sure how it gets blamed on him.

I blame him for being a greedy douchebag and forcing his way here know what we had to give up... even with a healthy amare this team is not a contender.. you talent, you need a TEAM.. the trade for carmelo ruined that, and that fat ass donkey didn't care!!!

Fact is, Amare losing his game really, hurt this team. You have no way of knowing what this team would look like if he was still a star. If you want to blame it all on Melo fine, but i will put some of the blame on the injury of Stoudemire. I can't say this was a definite contender with him healthy, but you can't say it isn't either.

this team never had enough talent with those two.. we saw them finish the season, healthy at 14-14 and they struggled together, a lot... amare hurt this team, but his injury didn't make us trash... the lack of flexibility, lack of talent, and now lack of picks, not only hurt this team and made us bad, but it hurt our future.. until you realize this and stop carrying carmelo's bags you will never truly identify the problem...

Can we stop with the he is fat and out of shape non-sense? He was out of shape coming out of the lockout. No question about it. It's over and done with. He is def in shape at this point and is logging serious minutes. You may not like the guy or anything else, but that is absolutely ridiculous. How was he being greedy? Hasn't pretty much every player in the league except Heat players (who live tax free in Miami done the same thing)? I suppose you could throw Durant in that mix but that contract was signed out of fear of the new CBA and now the league increased it and is subsidizing it for OKC.

You are right. We never had enough talent with those 2. Potentially we could've used some of those assets is Melo signed here for less but he didn't. Gallo and Chandler weren't gonna resign here though so not sure how big that loss is. Also, the rumors on what Chandler had been asking the Knicks to give him were completely insane (max to near max). Is he not greedy too?

Agree or Disagree with the Melo move, can we at least admit that the moves after that year and immediately following the lockout were horrible? They capped themselves out. The whole point was to try and let Billups expire (they couldn't just bought him out pre-lockout) and then make moves to improve the backcourt following that season. Instead they used the amnesty and didn't address backcourt needs. We have never really recovered.

kind of hard to read, you didn't use the "QUOTE" FEATURE. .LOL... but we made a lot of bad moves... the worse was the carmelo trade IMO... none of the other deals cost us young players and picks, that was just damaging... and I doubt we go after tyson chandler if carmelo wasn't here..