knickscity wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knickscity wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knickscity wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

knickscity wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:I would love to have seen Melo playing with a really good PG. For one thing it would mitigate some of his flaws and improve his strengths. Having an attacking and great passing PG would really help a lot. I'd love to see a kid like Rondo play with Melo. The roster is flawed in that regard since we have Felton who isn't a great passer and have to supplement his game with Prigs just to get some decent PG play to run this team. IMO part of Melo's issues have come from talented but flawed teams he's played on. When he had Billups things improved but that wasn't for a long enough stretch of time. It's not so much that you have to have a BETTER player next to Melo. Rather you need a SMARTER TEAM player next to him that can run the team and control Melo's game.

if you need to get someone to control your max players game, then what in the world would you pay that person?

He essentially called Melo dumb.

lol....

Both of you are being ASSES!!! What I wrote was clear. You put a smarter TEAM player at PG that can run and control the team as well as Melo. When we have Prigs in the game he's running the offense and that doesn't allow things to devolve into Melo feeling he has to go ISO just for the team to score. It's not about Melo not being good enough, but rather using his talent in the conjunction with the rest of the team in the best way. We don't have a great PG who can run the entire team as well as score on his own, so we have to meld Felton/Prigs/Udrih in order to try and keep the ball moving and get players in the right spots.

The Point is that if you don't run good offense with the supporting cast that leaves Melo left with only ISO plays. When we were kicking teams in the teeth last year, we got good TEAM BB from the supporting cast and that kept Melo from having to go ISO too much. That's why I posted that quote which showed just how efficient the team was when running actual plays as opposed to ISO.

As one of the league's best offenses during the regular season, the Knicks used 15.9 isolations per game. In the playoffs, it's been 26.6.

Melo's preference is to iso, he's good at it, but it doesnt win when it matters.

Woody prefers to iso as well, he has a history of utilizing that.

Woody cares about ball movment and taking the open shot...basketball basics....neither melo or Woody would know what to do with a true pg on the team, as it takes the ball out of both of their control.

But you are calling Melo a dumb player, but ironically he's smarter than you give him credit for...he can actually run the offense himself, it's by design why he plays the way he do.

Not to compare the two, but do you know that Melo possesses the same skillset as Lebron?

Only difference...one is committed to their entire skillset, Melo is just committed to scoring.

But there isnt a single skill that LeBron possesses that melo doesnt.

I do believe Melo can pass more but the issue is that ISO did increase because Woodson allowed it to happen. Melo will run the plays the coach calls but if you don't make it a priority to stick to Ball and Player Movement then it's all too easy to end up with a bunch of Melo and JR ISO's. The offense was efficient last year because we had good balance of Team BB and ISO plays. When that balance got out of whack in the playoffs the offense suffered.

Melo has always been an iso player, way before Woody.

You can say stick to this or that, but those shots have to fall eventually, which they werent.

The offense was good when guys hit shots, plain and simple....Ronnie Brewer was sticking threes in the beginning as was kidd.

Shots stop falling, someone has to take over...enter Melo, enter JR.

either "take over" or "put the team on ones back"... or continue to work the ball even if it means losing a few more games in the regular season.

you may lose a battle in doing so but you stand a better chance of winning the war. it's a team game and if there is no genuine cohesion-- and confidence is a facet of cohesion, as is resilience-- then the team will be exposed during the playoffs.

teamwork
cohesion
resilience
versatility
ubuntu

Sounds great, but what do you do when players actually pass up open shots because their confidence is shot? That happened last year.

Some players literally wanted no part of the basketball.

So then the "takeover" mode kicked in.

Now when someone is "lighting it up" you feed that no matter who it is.

There were moments in the playoffs where this could have been done and wasnt....plenty of it on display in the Pacer series.

At that point what you're saying should have been in full effect....but you cant force what isnt there.

in the regular season the coach has to encourage, even insist, that players who appear gun-shy, know they have the green light to shoot high quality shots, where missing such shots has no punitive consequences. how else do you assess a player until he does so? doug collins used to say that no coach is going to castigate a player for taking a good shot. melo has shown to take an average of 4-5 bad shots a game. those are shots that teammates should be taking. in the big picture, the playoffs ramp up the pressure as it is, so all the more reason to use the regular season to mold players.

you need to ask yourself "why is the confidence shot in players?" i have given my answer many times but few among the faithful want to consider it...

Sometimes a players confidence is shot simply because they keep missing....force feeding them the ball doesnt raise their confidence, it usually lowers it.

It's best to have them do other things and ween them into getting their shot back....other wise all of their shots will be bad shots.

that is a good point. but in game situations that can be a challenge. if woodson did not so transparently play favorites and actually sat players down who were taking bad or ill-advised shots maybe that would have a salutary effect on others. it may come back to the culture of the team... playing favorites is not healthy.

If we're still talking about the regular season I dont recall Woody sitting anyone down for those reasons, usually it was because the player wasnt defending AND couldnt/wouldnt shoot.

The funny thing though is Woody still went back to these guys when the playoffs started...Copeland missed every shot he took against Boston iirc.....and then went back to him again in the Pacer series, although he could have rode him while he was hot.

But by your assessment, while he was weening himself off Jason Kidd, he should have played and featured him more even though he hit nothing? Eventually you gotta sit.

Imo, if your "favorite" is your best player, i take no issue....your best scorer for instance is not gonna be benched in a playoff series.

no as a coach i see a 40-year old player out there and i see he has no legs left and i start looking around for someone, anyone to help felton since felton has demonstrated he can't get it together as a point guard. as a good coach i can predict a player's shelf life and prepare accordingly. i also see that a player like prigioni has a real resume' of success as a pro in europe and i give him every opportunity to acclimate to the nba and pronto.

woodson's mistake was not giving prigioni more playing time earlier in the season to keep kidd fresh. 20-20 hindsight perhaps but then i think woodson is a desperate coach who is willing to ride players into the ground to get more regular-season wins.

it does not help that the roster's clumsiness, thanks to felton and melo's limitations especially, forces a lesser coach to rely on players like a 40-year old kidd and a 36-year old prigioni.

dk7th wrote:

knickscity wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knickscity wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knickscity wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

knickscity wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:I would love to have seen Melo playing with a really good PG. For one thing it would mitigate some of his flaws and improve his strengths. Having an attacking and great passing PG would really help a lot. I'd love to see a kid like Rondo play with Melo. The roster is flawed in that regard since we have Felton who isn't a great passer and have to supplement his game with Prigs just to get some decent PG play to run this team. IMO part of Melo's issues have come from talented but flawed teams he's played on. When he had Billups things improved but that wasn't for a long enough stretch of time. It's not so much that you have to have a BETTER player next to Melo. Rather you need a SMARTER TEAM player next to him that can run the team and control Melo's game.

if you need to get someone to control your max players game, then what in the world would you pay that person?

He essentially called Melo dumb.

lol....

Both of you are being ASSES!!! What I wrote was clear. You put a smarter TEAM player at PG that can run and control the team as well as Melo. When we have Prigs in the game he's running the offense and that doesn't allow things to devolve into Melo feeling he has to go ISO just for the team to score. It's not about Melo not being good enough, but rather using his talent in the conjunction with the rest of the team in the best way. We don't have a great PG who can run the entire team as well as score on his own, so we have to meld Felton/Prigs/Udrih in order to try and keep the ball moving and get players in the right spots.

The Point is that if you don't run good offense with the supporting cast that leaves Melo left with only ISO plays. When we were kicking teams in the teeth last year, we got good TEAM BB from the supporting cast and that kept Melo from having to go ISO too much. That's why I posted that quote which showed just how efficient the team was when running actual plays as opposed to ISO.

As one of the league's best offenses during the regular season, the Knicks used 15.9 isolations per game. In the playoffs, it's been 26.6.

Melo's preference is to iso, he's good at it, but it doesnt win when it matters.

Woody prefers to iso as well, he has a history of utilizing that.

Woody cares about ball movment and taking the open shot...basketball basics....neither melo or Woody would know what to do with a true pg on the team, as it takes the ball out of both of their control.

But you are calling Melo a dumb player, but ironically he's smarter than you give him credit for...he can actually run the offense himself, it's by design why he plays the way he do.

Not to compare the two, but do you know that Melo possesses the same skillset as Lebron?

Only difference...one is committed to their entire skillset, Melo is just committed to scoring.

But there isnt a single skill that LeBron possesses that melo doesnt.

I do believe Melo can pass more but the issue is that ISO did increase because Woodson allowed it to happen. Melo will run the plays the coach calls but if you don't make it a priority to stick to Ball and Player Movement then it's all too easy to end up with a bunch of Melo and JR ISO's. The offense was efficient last year because we had good balance of Team BB and ISO plays. When that balance got out of whack in the playoffs the offense suffered.

Melo has always been an iso player, way before Woody.

You can say stick to this or that, but those shots have to fall eventually, which they werent.

The offense was good when guys hit shots, plain and simple....Ronnie Brewer was sticking threes in the beginning as was kidd.

Shots stop falling, someone has to take over...enter Melo, enter JR.

either "take over" or "put the team on ones back"... or continue to work the ball even if it means losing a few more games in the regular season.

you may lose a battle in doing so but you stand a better chance of winning the war. it's a team game and if there is no genuine cohesion-- and confidence is a facet of cohesion, as is resilience-- then the team will be exposed during the playoffs.

teamwork
cohesion
resilience
versatility
ubuntu

Sounds great, but what do you do when players actually pass up open shots because their confidence is shot? That happened last year.

Some players literally wanted no part of the basketball.

So then the "takeover" mode kicked in.

Now when someone is "lighting it up" you feed that no matter who it is.

There were moments in the playoffs where this could have been done and wasnt....plenty of it on display in the Pacer series.

At that point what you're saying should have been in full effect....but you cant force what isnt there.

in the regular season the coach has to encourage, even insist, that players who appear gun-shy, know they have the green light to shoot high quality shots, where missing such shots has no punitive consequences. how else do you assess a player until he does so? doug collins used to say that no coach is going to castigate a player for taking a good shot. melo has shown to take an average of 4-5 bad shots a game. those are shots that teammates should be taking. in the big picture, the playoffs ramp up the pressure as it is, so all the more reason to use the regular season to mold players.

you need to ask yourself "why is the confidence shot in players?" i have given my answer many times but few among the faithful want to consider it...

Sometimes a players confidence is shot simply because they keep missing....force feeding them the ball doesnt raise their confidence, it usually lowers it.

It's best to have them do other things and ween them into getting their shot back....other wise all of their shots will be bad shots.

that is a good point. but in game situations that can be a challenge. if woodson did not so transparently play favorites and actually sat players down who were taking bad or ill-advised shots maybe that would have a salutary effect on others. it may come back to the culture of the team... playing favorites is not healthy.

If we're still talking about the regular season I dont recall Woody sitting anyone down for those reasons, usually it was because the player wasnt defending AND couldnt/wouldnt shoot.

The funny thing though is Woody still went back to these guys when the playoffs started...Copeland missed every shot he took against Boston iirc.....and then went back to him again in the Pacer series, although he could have rode him while he was hot.

But by your assessment, while he was weening himself off Jason Kidd, he should have played and featured him more even though he hit nothing? Eventually you gotta sit.

Imo, if your "favorite" is your best player, i take no issue....your best scorer for instance is not gonna be benched in a playoff series.

no as a coach i see a 40-year old player out there and i see he has no legs left and i start looking around for someone, anyone to help felton since felton has demonstrated he can't get it together as a point guard. as a good coach i can predict a player's shelf life and prepare accordingly. i also see that a player like prigioni has a real resume' of success as a pro in europe and i give him every opportunity to acclimate to the nba and pronto.

woodson's mistake was not giving prigioni more playing time earlier in the season to keep kidd fresh. 20-20 hindsight perhaps but then i think woodson is a desperate coach who is willing to ride players into the ground to get more regular-season wins.

it does not help that the roster's clumsiness, thanks to felton and melo's limitations especially, forces a lesser coach to rely on players like a 40-year old kidd and a 36-year old prigioni.

pablo isn't whom i was referring to though....copeland was.

arkrud wrote:I voted no... And this is why...
Actually in real world this team is run by Dolan and his decision to keep or get read of Melo has nothing to do with any logic and game of bbal.
If Dolan want he will keep him for 50 million per year and if he will get tired of Melo he will trade him for the bag of chips or let him leave for nothing.

But if we will imagine that Knick are run by smart owner and decent front office in some fantasy world; the best option will be to trade Melo for picks and talent same as Denver did.
There are always a bunch of idiots in NBA to fool them around and sell them this clown.
This team so boooooring and deadened as it build that any fresh start will be refreshing.

nixluva wrote:IMO there are so few players in the league that are so called "worth" $20 million. Melo has significant value to this franchise right now. He's the center of the Knicks solar system and so he's worth that kind of money to this team because there's little chance of replacing him with someone better. It's all relative. To some other team perhaps he's not worth the money. Here with this team they're a playoff team in the top 5 at least and with a chance to get to the finals. Only self hating fans and the usual Knick hating media don't think this team has a chance.

self-hating? Say what?

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:IMO there are so few players in the league that are so called "worth" $20 million. Melo has significant value to this franchise right now. He's the center of the Knicks solar system and so he's worth that kind of money to this team because there's little chance of replacing him with someone better. It's all relative. To some other team perhaps he's not worth the money. Here with this team they're a playoff team in the top 5 at least and with a chance to get to the finals. Only self hating fans and the usual Knick hating media don't think this team has a chance.

self-hating? Say what?

Oh yeah I said it. It's something I say all the time around here. IMO this team for the 1st time in over a decade was the #2 seed and made it to the 2nd rd. This all happens because Melo is here. He may not be the best player in the NBA but he has helped this franchise achieve more than they had without him in recent years. Only fans who are self hating would choose to bash this guy in light of the fact that he's the best player on this team and we don't win anything significant without him. Also there's the chance this team goes further this year which would mean an ECF which is not chopped liver for a franchise and fanbase that had little to cheer for. That's my opinion of someone who can't appreciate those facts. They may want to point to other facts that might diminish his abilities but don't erase what he's helped this team do so far and going forward.

With a bit more help this team could indeed go further. I'm hopeful that we have that help now. No way to know for sure until they start playing for real, but I feel good about this roster. I think it's better than last years roster by a lot and guess what? Melo is still the best player on this roster.

Melo has previously gotten further with less.

raven wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:IMO there are so few players in the league that are so called "worth" $20 million. Melo has significant value to this franchise right now. He's the center of the Knicks solar system and so he's worth that kind of money to this team because there's little chance of replacing him with someone better. It's all relative. To some other team perhaps he's not worth the money. Here with this team they're a playoff team in the top 5 at least and with a chance to get to the finals. Only self hating fans and the usual Knick hating media don't think this team has a chance.

self-hating? Say what?

Oh yeah I said it. It's something I say all the time around here. IMO this team for the 1st time in over a decade was the #2 seed and made it to the 2nd rd. This all happens because Melo is here. He may not be the best player in the NBA but he has helped this franchise achieve more than they had without him in recent years. Only fans who are self hating would choose to bash this guy in light of the fact that he's the best player on this team and we don't win anything significant without him. Also there's the chance this team goes further this year which would mean an ECF which is not chopped liver for a franchise and fanbase that had little to cheer for. That's my opinion of someone who can't appreciate those facts. They may want to point to other facts that might diminish his abilities but don't erase what he's helped this team do so far and going forward.

With a bit more help this team could indeed go further. I'm hopeful that we have that help now. No way to know for sure until they start playing for real, but I feel good about this roster. I think it's better than last years roster by a lot and guess what? Melo is still the best player on this roster.

No, this happened because the Eastern Conference teams went 185-265 against western conference teams, one of the worst imbalance in NBA history. The Eastern conference was beyond bad and the Knicks happened to be ''less bad'' than the others. The Knicks were also >50% in 3pts in the first week of the seasons, with most players going far above their career average, we know how it went when that returned to normal (which btw has not happened yet for Melo so brace yourself).

Bottom line, if it helps you sleeping at night surrounded by pink unicorns and faeries to think Melo was the one who did that, good for you. But this season, even if the Knicks win as many meaningless regular season games as last year, will have the same ugly end in April.
Melo is an immensely talented player, just not the kind of one you should build your team around. The earlier we get this and cash out, the best for the team.

Yeah, I don't get how the self-hating fans are the ones who want the Knicks to win a championship while the self-loving fans are the ones settling for less. Maybe it's "opposites day" in Nixluva's house.

Look I had no problem bashing Melo when I felt he wasn't playing well and was dogging it. I also will support him when I feel he's played well and led the team to the #2 seed and the 2nd rd. If he had a bit more help there is a chance they win game 6 and get to game 7. Perhaps they don't even lose game 1 and it's not such a struggle. To ignore that this team has done better with Melo on it is just wrong. We have DRose and Lebron in our conference. It's hard to see this team being able to land any other Elite player with the exception of Rondo maybe.

Lebron
Durant
Rose
Paul
Kobe
Melo
Curry
Rondo
Westbrook
Wade

It's just not realistic to think we can do better than Melo right now. If you think so then WHO? Teams need an elite player to build around and there are very few of them in the league. Almost none that are available. You shouldn't spit on the one we have just cuz there are other guys you might like better. We're lucky to be one of the teams that actually has one of the league's top players. Winning a title is the toughest thing to do and so it's not right to hold it against your best player if we don't have a title already. Not many do have a ring and it's hard for a franchise to put it all together. We need to give this roster a chance and see how it does.

Papabear wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:It's not about settling for less. How is stating the FACTS the same as settling? If you can't appreciate the improvements then you are in fact a Self Hating Knicks Fan!!! Team goes a decade plus losing and now that they have a good player and the team is winning all of a sudden that isn't a good thing. People have to pick at it and point out only the negative aspects of the player and team. Find ways to minimize the value of the achievement and progress of the team. To me there's no other way to describe the group of fans who do this.

It's not Melo's fault that STAT has had health issues. Every other top player has a side kick who helps him out. Melo didn't get a chance to have that here and as we all know there's a question STAT was the right side kick even if he was fully healthy. We won't know until they're both healthy in the playoffs. Maybe that happens. At this point I see nothing wrong with supporting this team. What has Melo ever done to deserve such dislike from the same group of fans in NY? No he's not perfect but he is the best player on the team so something he's doing is of value if the team has the #2 seed. One of you spit on that because the East wasn't as strong but that's not the point. YOu can only play the schedule you're given, besides no one ever made the point that the Knicks were the 2nd best team in the entire league. They were in fact the #2 seed in the East tho.

The posters you are talking dont think melo is good enough to be the best player on the team to win a TITLE with....personally i dont think the team is that good...it's a good regular season team and thats it.

They dont play defense and dont rebound well, when they do that, then I'll change my feeling.

Really nobody cares about the regular season, all it establishes is standings and seeds which solid teams can win on the road anyway, so that "seeding" is pretty moot.

You dont even have to win half of your games to even make the playoffs now, and over half the league gets in.

Amare was here first, so not sure what this "sidekick" nonsense is about.

Even in the first playoff game those two DID play together one dominated and the other looked like doo-doo.

The bottom line...some just dont feel MELO SHOULD BE THE BEST PLAYER ON THE TEAM...unless a chance to win a title is not the expectation.

And you can call those folks whatever you like, that wont change.

Papabear Says

Why don't you speak for yourself. Talking about nobody cares about regular season. If thats the case then why are you posting now? Why dont you wait till the playoffs. Regular season does count. Number one I enjoy going to Knicks games having fun. But I see the game some of you are putting down. If we win the eastern finals and loose in the finals you'll be saying nothing means anything until they win a championship. LOL we have not done that in 40 years but I am still a fan. Remember it is just a game to watch and enjoy. So why don't you just sit back and enjoy the Knicks season and if you don't like that then I repeat why are you posting now when you say nothing means anything until the playoffs.

I post because i discuss basketball, it's a basketball forum isnt it? Good lord you're slow.