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Shumpert going into his 3rd yr.
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gunsnewing
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9/5/2013  12:49 PM
I get what your are saying Martin and Woodson wanted Amare to develope post moves so he could coexist with Melo. But you are right amares health prevented that. It's just that moving forward and past Amare I hope Woodson realizes that he needs a better gameplan in the playoffs. Not the same one that wins you 54 meaningless reg season games
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gunsnewing
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9/5/2013  1:07 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/5/2013  2:01 PM
Maybe Amare wasn't the best option but I along with a few others expressed concern when we were a .500 ball club that starting Melo at the 4 was fouls good once the playoffs rolled around as teams like Indiana and Chicago were bigger and faster as evident by how they abused us in the regular season. All In kept getting was that I am being negative the Knicks are in 2nd place, you would think that we were not even in the playoff picture etc. Well the playoffs rolled around and all my concerns played out. No inside scoring and easy baskets, no rebounding and iso perimeter chuckfest offense. I am hopeful that the organization and well payed coaches looking back at that Indiana series agree with me but I have very little faith left in this team. My excitement level for the upcoming season wi be determined once the opening day lineup is established. It better be Tyson barg Melo Shump not Artest with Melo at the 4. I left out PG because I already know Felton is starting much to my dismay even though udrih can hit a shot to help spread the floor for Melo and prigioni is a better orchestrator
martin
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9/5/2013  1:09 PM
gunsnewing wrote:I get what your are saying Martin and Woodson wanted Amare to develope post moves so he could coexist with Melo. But you are right amares health prevented that. It's just that moving forward and past Amare I hope Woodson realizes that he needs a better gameplan in the playoffs. Not the same one that wins you 54 meaningless reg season games

Kidd not scoring and JR sucking really hurt the Knicks. Tyson sucked. Woody should have relied on a 28 year old rookie who had defensive issues more. Not playing Prigs in game 4 was stupid.

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gunsnewing
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9/5/2013  1:13 PM
Yea even prigioni who turned our season around once inserted into the starting lineup was bench game 4 for Kmart instead of Felton who did well offensively a few games but also got cold towards the end and does not help the offense gel. Prigioni was in the doghouse early in the series too
gunsnewing
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9/5/2013  1:30 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/5/2013  1:34 PM
I hate when people blame injuries because the playoffs played out the same way as the regular season did vs Indiana and Melo and Tyson were healthy then. Good defenses shut the Knicks down and force them into long perimeter shots. Same thing had we played Chicago. And they pound is on the boards
nixluva
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9/5/2013  1:54 PM
gunsnewing wrote:I hate when people blame injuries because the playoffs played out the same way as the regular season did vs Indiana and Melo and Tyson were healthy then. Good defenses shut the Knicks down and force them into long perimeter shots. Same thing had we played Chicago. And they pound is on the boards

You can't just ignore the fact that Kidd was done physically. JR was slumping and more injured than we knew and Tyson who usually did a good job against Hibbert was weak from being ill. Those are legit explanations for why this team didn't at least get to a game 7. Remember this was 6 game series and in the playoffs you have to be strong. You can't have weakness as the Knicks did.

It wasn't the only issue as we've discussed Woody also didn't have a good showing in the playoffs again. With Woody you really need offensive players that can get it done without really creative coaching cuz Woody isn't really that good at coming up with stuff on the fly. That said I love the offense Woody had this team run coming out of camp and with more legit talent he can get even more out of this team.

This time we'll have Shump at full strength and confidence as he showed in the playoffs. Woody will have another option if JR isn't getting it done. THJ is a legit SG who we know can catch and shoot and has good athletic ability as well. The big difference is having Beno instead of Kidd. Kidd was really limited to only moving the ball around the perimeter and shooting the open 3. THAT'S IT! Beno can do much more and that will automatically give this team more variety and less predictability. Then add in Bargnani and MWP and it's a pretty good offense in terms of depth and variety.
KEEPCAMBYNY
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9/5/2013  2:21 PM
EnySpree wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
EnySpree wrote:so what if Shump doesn't improve and just plays ok, nothing special....like say Thabo Sefolosha, Tony Allen or Deshawn Stevenson

Even what he brings now with great perimeter D and efficient 3 pt shooting. He is a highly effective role player. His rebounding was very good in the playoffs as well. He is only moveable if you are getting someone clearly better imo.

His handle, creating, pull up, finishing after contact or go to moves when attacking, and health are the areas of concern.

Shump needs to show improvement in all the areas you mentioned. It's a Crap shoot Cuz if he doesn't show it this year, how long are we going to have this potential tag on him? Thabo, Tony, and deshawn all bring what you say Shump is missing. Difference between these guys and Shump is Shump talks a mean game and he has a drive to him, it just doesn't match his game at this point.

If it were me he would be gone. I understand the potential but my patience is really thin

Patience is really thin? Am I missing something here? He has only played two seasons, one of those being a lockout year that he played under a joke coach in D'Antoni without a training camp and it ended by him tearing his ACL. The other year was cut in half due to his ACL rehab, which lead to him starting off slowly since he hadn't played in almost a year, plus he had to regain trust in his knee as well, and the year ended with him saving our ass in the Boston series and nearly doing it again in game 6 of the Pacers series. All that should have been expected of Iman going into last season was for him to regain the form of his previous season and improve his jump shot which he more than passed with flying colors. If you expected more than that then you were being unrealistic.

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gunsnewing
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9/5/2013  2:27 PM
Well said
knicks1248
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9/5/2013  2:32 PM
KEEPCAMBYNY wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
EnySpree wrote:so what if Shump doesn't improve and just plays ok, nothing special....like say Thabo Sefolosha, Tony Allen or Deshawn Stevenson

Even what he brings now with great perimeter D and efficient 3 pt shooting. He is a highly effective role player. His rebounding was very good in the playoffs as well. He is only moveable if you are getting someone clearly better imo.

His handle, creating, pull up, finishing after contact or go to moves when attacking, and health are the areas of concern.

Shump needs to show improvement in all the areas you mentioned. It's a Crap shoot Cuz if he doesn't show it this year, how long are we going to have this potential tag on him? Thabo, Tony, and deshawn all bring what you say Shump is missing. Difference between these guys and Shump is Shump talks a mean game and he has a drive to him, it just doesn't match his game at this point.

If it were me he would be gone. I understand the potential but my patience is really thin

Patience is really thin? Am I missing something here? He has only played two seasons, one of those being a lockout year that he played under a joke coach in D'Antoni without a training camp and it ended by him tearing his ACL. The other year was cut in half due to his ACL rehab, which lead to him starting off slowly since he hadn't played in almost a year, plus he had to regain trust in his knee as well, and the year ended with him saving our ass in the Boston series and nearly doing it again in game 6 of the Pacers series. All that should have been expected of Iman going into last season was for him to regain the form of his previous season and improve his jump shot which he more than passed with flying colors. If you expected more than that then you were being unrealistic.

MDA was not a joke, his roster was a joke..

But ppl are clearly starting to think everybody with ACL tears should bounce back Like AP, There was an indepth article on how AP and RG3 have change the way ppl are looking at acl tears, what they did is short of a miracle. The avg rehab is 12 to 14 month

ES
KEEPCAMBYNY
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9/5/2013  2:33 PM
dk7th wrote:
martin wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
martin wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
martin wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:We had Shumpert shooting the 3 well last year Nd Woodson and Melo still didn't get him the ball enough. The. People cry that Melo doesn't have help

you are taking things so out of context it's almost degrading to your posts

how is he doing that, If you didn't recall the the playoff game where shump scored 12 straight points to end the 3rd qtr bring us back, only to not see the ball again..I belive that was game 3 in the pacers series

The context of the argument that Melo doesn't have help is when the Knicks are compared to Durant/Westbrook, KG/Pierce/Rondo, LeBron/Wade/Bosh.

Shump ain't close to any of those above.

This may true martin, but what makes you think melo would change his game, from iso to team ball, even during the olympics he play the same way, he was just more efficient because he saw less double teams..Shump may not be on the level of WB/wade/rondo but he has the talent to avg 17ppg giving the attemps.

He does have the talent but he also has to prove himself too. IMHO had a good playoffs. During the regular season he increased shots month-to-month. All good things and no indication that Melo was hampering him. Still needs to be able to finish around the basket and make a midrange shot - those things have nothing to do with Melo.

Shump just returned from ACL mid year and it was obvious to me Woody would give him the short minutes when his D wasn't full on. Nothing wrong with that and I expect Shump to see bigger role in offense this year, especially with training camp.

All this talk about ISO Melo is nonsense to me - I don't see a direct correlation. Melo surely shoots the ball a lot and isn't the playmaker that Wade, LeBron, Kobe are, but I don't see him hindering the likes of Shump.

carmelo anthony's usage rate was highest in the league and the highest of his career. meanwhile his raw assist numbers were their usual below par and his assist rate was 14.1% meaning that another player scored via the assist only 14.1% of the time that carmelo anthony was on the floor.

in the playoffs his usage rate went up to 38% and the assist rate went down to 9.3%.

OUCH

there is a direct correlation-- the numbers back up the eye test. but lets do the expedient and facile thing which is to blame his teammates for not stepping up, running out of gas, or being injured.

There is a story here that is deeper than the numbers. I think those numbers have more alot to do with JKidd, Tyson, and JR falling off, as well as Woody's refusal to trust Pablo and Cope. Not saying Melo is guilt free but I think there were others factors at work. I would love to know the stats for when he was surrounded by Cope/Shump/Prigs, I bet they are much better in that lineup.

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KEEPCAMBYNY
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9/5/2013  2:38 PM
tkf wrote:If you guys are so high on shumpert.. which I think some may be a bit unrealistic, but if you are high on him, and who knows there may be good reason to be, he is a potential two way player who is a great athlete.... then really the goal should be to build a team, based on defense, and two way players... that is my point. Honestly I thought he and lin were going to be a very nice backcourt. But now dolan killed that.. So my goal over the next two years would be to get a PG to grow with shumpert and a SF...

I would still like to get our hands on Bledsoe somehow and then go for a young two way SF, Deng is getting up there, but he would be ideal.. could you image the defense and versatility with Bledsoe, shumpert and deng on the wings? substitute deng for an up and coming player like ALF(al farouq aminu) don't laugh the kid is young ,long, athletic and can defend.. he averaged 7 points and 8 boards last year.. the kind of guy you have to get cheap before he breaks out.. I think some of you see where I am going with this.. then you get that one FA piece in 2015 that can help tie all of this together and you make a run for the next 5+ years, but get a unit that actually fits!!!

I mean, Deng/Alf, Bledsoe, shumpert, and a guy like kevin love or Aldridge potentially.. I mean the options start to open up.. but what excites me is having shump,Deng and Blesoe on the wings defensively and on the break... as senator clay davis on the show the "wire" said... Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet!!!! LOL


Finally you say something I can agree with, and that is exactly why that 2015 cap space is so important because it puts us in position to be able to build that kind of team.

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gunsnewing
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9/5/2013  2:40 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/5/2013  2:41 PM
I would love for Woodson to see those stats. You are right on. Woodsons lineups are a big part of those pathetic numbers. Flight white with a front court of Tyson and Martin or Shump out of position. Lack of consistent minutes between prigs cope and Shump yep

No excuses now with Bargnani udrih and prigioni
GustavBahler
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9/5/2013  2:45 PM
KEEPCAMBYNY wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
EnySpree wrote:so what if Shump doesn't improve and just plays ok, nothing special....like say Thabo Sefolosha, Tony Allen or Deshawn Stevenson

Even what he brings now with great perimeter D and efficient 3 pt shooting. He is a highly effective role player. His rebounding was very good in the playoffs as well. He is only moveable if you are getting someone clearly better imo.

His handle, creating, pull up, finishing after contact or go to moves when attacking, and health are the areas of concern.

Shump needs to show improvement in all the areas you mentioned. It's a Crap shoot Cuz if he doesn't show it this year, how long are we going to have this potential tag on him? Thabo, Tony, and deshawn all bring what you say Shump is missing. Difference between these guys and Shump is Shump talks a mean game and he has a drive to him, it just doesn't match his game at this point.

If it were me he would be gone. I understand the potential but my patience is really thin

Patience is really thin? Am I missing something here? He has only played two seasons, one of those being a lockout year that he played under a joke coach in D'Antoni without a training camp and it ended by him tearing his ACL. The other year was cut in half due to his ACL rehab, which lead to him starting off slowly since he hadn't played in almost a year, plus he had to regain trust in his knee as well, and the year ended with him saving our ass in the Boston series and nearly doing it again in game 6 of the Pacers series. All that should have been expected of Iman going into last season was for him to regain the form of his previous season and improve his jump shot which he more than passed with flying colors. If you expected more than that then you were being unrealistic.


I haven't lost patience with Shump, I agree that his injury set him back, but its very important that we see some improvement in the areas that newyorknewyork listed. I believe Shump can be an all star down the road if he keeps improving. Its important that he spends this summer working on these things. If Shump comes back and we don't see much improvement in these facets of his game as the season progresses, then I would agree with Eny that we should consider including him in a deal if it is more than just a lateral move.

Shump has all summer to work on his game, training camp, and the preseason to get ready for next season. It doesn't have to be a huge improvement right off the bat, but its important that as the season goes on that we see that Shump is doing things like finishing around the rim. Shump is much too athletic for that to be an issue. Its a question of putting in the effort and getting it done. I believe he can do it, just have to wait and see if he does.
martin
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9/5/2013  2:45 PM
gunsnewing wrote:I would love for Woodson to see those stats. You are right on. Woodsons lineups are a big part of those pathetic numbers. Flight white with a front court of Tyson and Martin or Shump out of position. Lack of consistent minutes between prigs cope and Shump yep

No excuses now with Bargnani udrih and prigioni

I thought Prigs and Shump got very consistent minutes, except a game or 2.

What was your lineup when Flight started? Kidd was out and Brewer sucked.

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tkf
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9/5/2013  3:44 PM
gunsnewing wrote:I hate when people blame injuries because the playoffs played out the same way as the regular season did vs Indiana and Melo and Tyson were healthy then. Good defenses shut the Knicks down and force them into long perimeter shots. Same thing had we played Chicago. And they pound is on the boards

exactly..

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
knicks1248
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9/5/2013  3:57 PM
tkf wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:I hate when people blame injuries because the playoffs played out the same way as the regular season did vs Indiana and Melo and Tyson were healthy then. Good defenses shut the Knicks down and force them into long perimeter shots. Same thing had we played Chicago. And they pound is on the boards

exactly..

Are you kidding me comparing playoff games to regular season..smh

ES
gunsnewing
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9/5/2013  4:08 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/5/2013  4:11 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
tkf wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:I hate when people blame injuries because the playoffs played out the same way as the regular season did vs Indiana and Melo and Tyson were healthy then. Good defenses shut the Knicks down and force them into long perimeter shots. Same thing had we played Chicago. And they pound is on the boards

exactly..

Are you kidding me comparing playoff games to regular season..smh

If we are only judging on playoffs then 54 wins was a fluke and we are in worst shape than I thought because we were embarrassed by indy
EnySpree
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9/5/2013  4:11 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
KEEPCAMBYNY wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
EnySpree wrote:so what if Shump doesn't improve and just plays ok, nothing special....like say Thabo Sefolosha, Tony Allen or Deshawn Stevenson

Even what he brings now with great perimeter D and efficient 3 pt shooting. He is a highly effective role player. His rebounding was very good in the playoffs as well. He is only moveable if you are getting someone clearly better imo.

His handle, creating, pull up, finishing after contact or go to moves when attacking, and health are the areas of concern.

Shump needs to show improvement in all the areas you mentioned. It's a Crap shoot Cuz if he doesn't show it this year, how long are we going to have this potential tag on him? Thabo, Tony, and deshawn all bring what you say Shump is missing. Difference between these guys and Shump is Shump talks a mean game and he has a drive to him, it just doesn't match his game at this point.

If it were me he would be gone. I understand the potential but my patience is really thin

Patience is really thin? Am I missing something here? He has only played two seasons, one of those being a lockout year that he played under a joke coach in D'Antoni without a training camp and it ended by him tearing his ACL. The other year was cut in half due to his ACL rehab, which lead to him starting off slowly since he hadn't played in almost a year, plus he had to regain trust in his knee as well, and the year ended with him saving our ass in the Boston series and nearly doing it again in game 6 of the Pacers series. All that should have been expected of Iman going into last season was for him to regain the form of his previous season and improve his jump shot which he more than passed with flying colors. If you expected more than that then you were being unrealistic.

MDA was not a joke, his roster was a joke..

But ppl are clearly starting to think everybody with ACL tears should bounce back Like AP, There was an indepth article on how AP and RG3 have change the way ppl are looking at acl tears, what they did is short of a miracle. The avg rehab is 12 to 14 month

I tore my ACL before so I know what the injury is all about....

We are talking about pro athletes not some office assistant that plays ball once a week with his friends from high school...

Year 3 regardless of injury should be enough. Do we wait for next year and say well after a whole summer of playing basketball and training the guy learned to to take the ball to the basket....maybe in year 4 he will learn to score on the drive....we trying to win or not?

I'm hoping the kid improves, but at the same time I'm not inclined to wait for a kid to learn how to play, while we have this small window to get this championship with this core group.

And nobody is talking about the kids performance in the playoffs...I'm talking about his play going forward. Everyone has an opinion but can't read. Nothing new in the fan forums

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gunsnewing
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9/5/2013  4:23 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/5/2013  4:25 PM
EnySpree wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
KEEPCAMBYNY wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
EnySpree wrote:so what if Shump doesn't improve and just plays ok, nothing special....like say Thabo Sefolosha, Tony Allen or Deshawn Stevenson

Even what he brings now with great perimeter D and efficient 3 pt shooting. He is a highly effective role player. His rebounding was very good in the playoffs as well. He is only moveable if you are getting someone clearly better imo.

His handle, creating, pull up, finishing after contact or go to moves when attacking, and health are the areas of concern.

Shump needs to show improvement in all the areas you mentioned. It's a Crap shoot Cuz if he doesn't show it this year, how long are we going to have this potential tag on him? Thabo, Tony, and deshawn all bring what you say Shump is missing. Difference between these guys and Shump is Shump talks a mean game and he has a drive to him, it just doesn't match his game at this point.

If it were me he would be gone. I understand the potential but my patience is really thin

Patience is really thin? Am I missing something here? He has only played two seasons, one of those being a lockout year that he played under a joke coach in D'Antoni without a training camp and it ended by him tearing his ACL. The other year was cut in half due to his ACL rehab, which lead to him starting off slowly since he hadn't played in almost a year, plus he had to regain trust in his knee as well, and the year ended with him saving our ass in the Boston series and nearly doing it again in game 6 of the Pacers series. All that should have been expected of Iman going into last season was for him to regain the form of his previous season and improve his jump shot which he more than passed with flying colors. If you expected more than that then you were being unrealistic.

MDA was not a joke, his roster was a joke..

But ppl are clearly starting to think everybody with ACL tears should bounce back Like AP, There was an indepth article on how AP and RG3 have change the way ppl are looking at acl tears, what they did is short of a miracle. The avg rehab is 12 to 14 month

I tore my ACL before so I know what the injury is all about....

We are talking about pro athletes not some office assistant that plays ball once a week with his friends from high school...

Year 3 regardless of injury should be enough. Do we wait for next year and say well after a whole summer of playing basketball and training the guy learned to to take the ball to the basket....maybe in year 4 he will learn to score on the drive....we trying to win or not?

I'm hoping the kid improves, but at the same time I'm not inclined to wait for a kid to learn how to play, while we have this small window to get this championship with this core group.

And nobody is talking about the kids performance in the playoffs...I'm talking about his play going forward. Everyone has an opinion but can't read. Nothing new in the fan forums

This team is not competing with the heat, spurs, okc, Houston, pacers, bulls and Nyets for as long as Amare's disgusting contract is on the books. We are capped out. None of those teams carry that burden on their cap and dead weight. Might as well hold on to Shumpert for 2015
nixluva
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9/5/2013  4:29 PM
gunsnewing wrote:This team is not competing with the heat, spurs, Houston, pacers, bulls and Nyets for as long as Amare's disgusting contract is on the books. Might as well hold on to Shumpert for 2015

I'm all for Shump having a bust out year and being a good piece moving forward, but what's this stuff about the Knicks not competing with the other top teams in the East? In what world do the Knicks not compete when they actually were the #2 seed last year? Every other team had the chance to win 54 games and none of those other teams did. I think the Knicks would've won more if they were healthier. People really do seem to forget how many games lost to injury the Knicks had. At full strength the Knicks are the equal of any of these teams in the East.
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