Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

tkf wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

dk7th wrote:you need to lay off the embalming fluid-- i said paul pierce is the superior player because of the skills he has always possessed. this has NOTHING to do with his lottery team years.

Why didn't Paul Pierce use his superior skills to get his team to the playoffs? Did his superior skills fade when Walker left then return when Allen and Garnett arrived?

what did boston have to give up to get pierce? you see boston didn't have to trade to get pierce, therefore that allowed him to get "help" but make no mistake pierce was no playoff flop like carmelo, that is the difference.. Help means nothing if you are no help.... pierce was finals MVP..stud...

carmelo forced his way here ruining any chance at "help" again, it falls on him.. but keep deflecting to pierce.. I love how you make our arguments for us..

His help was supposed to be Amare if im not mistaken. Carmelo didnt ruin that either. Amare just cant stay healthy.

WELL FOR 11 years running he just has bad luck then...

even more reason to get rid of him....

I guess thats why Minn got rid of KG lol. Because in his 11 years he only got past the first round once just like Melo. And he missed the playoffs 3 years in a row. Just look at history man. Put you hate of Melo to the side just for a second. Look at supporting cast of different stars. Look at Pierce, KG, Wade, Kobe when they didn't have other all-stars alongside them. Look how kobe missed the playoffs, never got past the first round without Shaq or Pau. KG never did without 2 other all-stars next to him. Wade never did without Shaq, or his crew now. Durant this season. Lebron is one of very few exceptions. If your expectation is that he should be good enough to get to the ECF without another big time star then thats on you to adjust you expectations. My expectations of him moving us in the right direction and winning a playoff series were dead on. I can't ask anymore of him until he gets his Westbrook, Pau Gasol, KG, whoever. It was supposed to be Amare, and its not, so adjust your standards a little bit.

you keep bringing up player after player... well this is the difference all of those players.. KG, pierce, paul, durant, lebron were all decorated NBA players... or Consistent star playoff performers!

carmelo has been neither!! so to say he needs help is ridiculous.. He needs to be help first.... second he forced a trade here, if he was too dumb to see how this team was being gutted to get his dumb azz here then again, that is his fault and stupidity.. why is this so hard to see..

We are not going anywhere with this fools gold player.. and it has nothing to do with what KG needed, pierce, lebron, those guys have rings!!!! end of story.. either they were smart enough to collude with the right team, or lucky enough to be traded to a great situation.. either way, they got to the promise land..

Carmelo for 11 years has not been good enough and or just so unlucky.. either way, I don't care, he is an overrated player, making 20 mil a year and is in this position by his own doing.. End of story...

I think all they're saying is give Melo a teammate of that caliber. Give him a KG, a Westbrook, a Wade and lets see how he does. There is no doubt in my mind that Melo still puts on his sh** show that he did this year in the playoffs with a 2nd guy on his team, things would be different.

How about a future hall-of-famer like Iverson?

No one considered him elite at that point. He was out of the league 2 years later. Billups was the best he had and the one year Billups was real good they went to the WCF.

You're way off the mark here. John Hollinger and several others called the Nuggets instant title contenders when Iverson joined Melo. See for example this:
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&id=2702780

And does the fault lie with Melo/Iverson or John Hollinger's metrics?

Both. I've not supported Hollinger. The reason his data tend to be off is that he gives too much weight to inefficient volume scoring (like most fans do). His analysis is probably better than sole use on the eye ball test but only barely better.

I get what you're saying but disagree with it fundamentally. Whatever the reason for his data being "off", the fact is that its more of a suggestion than anything concrete. It is a major reason why I believe you cannot substitute metrics for the human eye. The key lies in striking an appropriate balance between both and I personally think that balance is found by placing greater emphasis on the eye test lest we trade a younger Kevin Durant because of a low +/-.

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

tkf wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

dk7th wrote:you need to lay off the embalming fluid-- i said paul pierce is the superior player because of the skills he has always possessed. this has NOTHING to do with his lottery team years.

Why didn't Paul Pierce use his superior skills to get his team to the playoffs? Did his superior skills fade when Walker left then return when Allen and Garnett arrived?

what did boston have to give up to get pierce? you see boston didn't have to trade to get pierce, therefore that allowed him to get "help" but make no mistake pierce was no playoff flop like carmelo, that is the difference.. Help means nothing if you are no help.... pierce was finals MVP..stud...

carmelo forced his way here ruining any chance at "help" again, it falls on him.. but keep deflecting to pierce.. I love how you make our arguments for us..

His help was supposed to be Amare if im not mistaken. Carmelo didnt ruin that either. Amare just cant stay healthy.

WELL FOR 11 years running he just has bad luck then...

even more reason to get rid of him....

I guess thats why Minn got rid of KG lol. Because in his 11 years he only got past the first round once just like Melo. And he missed the playoffs 3 years in a row. Just look at history man. Put you hate of Melo to the side just for a second. Look at supporting cast of different stars. Look at Pierce, KG, Wade, Kobe when they didn't have other all-stars alongside them. Look how kobe missed the playoffs, never got past the first round without Shaq or Pau. KG never did without 2 other all-stars next to him. Wade never did without Shaq, or his crew now. Durant this season. Lebron is one of very few exceptions. If your expectation is that he should be good enough to get to the ECF without another big time star then thats on you to adjust you expectations. My expectations of him moving us in the right direction and winning a playoff series were dead on. I can't ask anymore of him until he gets his Westbrook, Pau Gasol, KG, whoever. It was supposed to be Amare, and its not, so adjust your standards a little bit.

you keep bringing up player after player... well this is the difference all of those players.. KG, pierce, paul, durant, lebron were all decorated NBA players... or Consistent star playoff performers!

carmelo has been neither!! so to say he needs help is ridiculous.. He needs to be help first.... second he forced a trade here, if he was too dumb to see how this team was being gutted to get his dumb azz here then again, that is his fault and stupidity.. why is this so hard to see..

We are not going anywhere with this fools gold player.. and it has nothing to do with what KG needed, pierce, lebron, those guys have rings!!!! end of story.. either they were smart enough to collude with the right team, or lucky enough to be traded to a great situation.. either way, they got to the promise land..

Carmelo for 11 years has not been good enough and or just so unlucky.. either way, I don't care, he is an overrated player, making 20 mil a year and is in this position by his own doing.. End of story...

I think all they're saying is give Melo a teammate of that caliber. Give him a KG, a Westbrook, a Wade and lets see how he does. There is no doubt in my mind that Melo still puts on his sh** show that he did this year in the playoffs with a 2nd guy on his team, things would be different.

How about a future hall-of-famer like Iverson?

No one considered him elite at that point. He was out of the league 2 years later. Billups was the best he had and the one year Billups was real good they went to the WCF.

You're way off the mark here. John Hollinger and several others called the Nuggets instant title contenders when Iverson joined Melo. See for example this:
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&id=2702780

And does the fault lie with Melo/Iverson or John Hollinger's metrics?

Both. I've not supported Hollinger. The reason his data tend to be off is that he gives too much weight to inefficient volume scoring (like most fans do). His analysis is probably better than sole use on the eye ball test but only barely better.

I get what you're saying but disagree with it fundamentally. Whatever the reason for his data being "off", the fact is that its more of a suggestion than anything concrete. It is a major reason why I believe you cannot substitute metrics for the human eye. The key lies in striking an appropriate balance between both and I personally think that balance is found by placing greater emphasis on the eye test lest we trade a younger Kevin Durant because of a low +/-.

+/- is minimally useful. No one would ever recommend a trade based on it.

It's minimally useful because of how it marginalizes a game that is multi-dimensional, with multiple variables at play. The problem is that a great deal of the statistics people use do the same thing. You can throw out something like effective FG% to evaluate a player's scoring abilities but that doesn't take into account the conditions under which he is forced to take his shots. Let me elaborate. A guy like Paul Pierce might have a higher eFG% than Melo (which he doesn't but let's pretend) but does that take into account the frequency of double/triple teaming the players are facing? Does it account for the caliber of teammates the player can turn to, to stave off this threat? Does it account for how open the player's shots are? The type of system the player in question is playing in? Etc.? No but people will attempt to use this stuff to justify a player being a better player. The point I've been making is that no amount of statistics can substitute for the naked eye in assessing all of these factors together.

JamesKPolk wrote:

knickscity wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

tkf wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

dk7th wrote:you need to lay off the embalming fluid-- i said paul pierce is the superior player because of the skills he has always possessed. this has NOTHING to do with his lottery team years.

Why didn't Paul Pierce use his superior skills to get his team to the playoffs? Did his superior skills fade when Walker left then return when Allen and Garnett arrived?

what did boston have to give up to get pierce? you see boston didn't have to trade to get pierce, therefore that allowed him to get "help" but make no mistake pierce was no playoff flop like carmelo, that is the difference.. Help means nothing if you are no help.... pierce was finals MVP..stud...

carmelo forced his way here ruining any chance at "help" again, it falls on him.. but keep deflecting to pierce.. I love how you make our arguments for us..

His help was supposed to be Amare if im not mistaken. Carmelo didnt ruin that either. Amare just cant stay healthy.

it is not possible for those two to help each other anyway. too bad amare can't stay healthy enough to prove that to you and everyone else who feels it is never melo's fault....

Amare is proving it by staying in a suit. Worst signing by a terrible executive.

Worst post by a terrible poster.

Anyone calling Walsh a terrible executive has no idea about basketball and should cease posting immediately.

What did he do to distinguish himself as anything but subpar?

Jmpasq wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:a lot of fans still dont get it. We have no money to make any serious moves. We cant get a second scorer for melo because we have no cap space and we have no assets.

People dont get the New CBA either.We are hamstrung but so are a lot of teams. The Heat got to make their super team and once they acquired enough talent the NBA decided no 1 was allowed to improve their team that way anymore

That's not true some teams in the east havr cap space and there are teams like CHi with a 5 million TPE that could easily help out a team like Dallas or Houston.

NardDogNation wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

tkf wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

dk7th wrote:you need to lay off the embalming fluid-- i said paul pierce is the superior player because of the skills he has always possessed. this has NOTHING to do with his lottery team years.

Why didn't Paul Pierce use his superior skills to get his team to the playoffs? Did his superior skills fade when Walker left then return when Allen and Garnett arrived?

what did boston have to give up to get pierce? you see boston didn't have to trade to get pierce, therefore that allowed him to get "help" but make no mistake pierce was no playoff flop like carmelo, that is the difference.. Help means nothing if you are no help.... pierce was finals MVP..stud...

carmelo forced his way here ruining any chance at "help" again, it falls on him.. but keep deflecting to pierce.. I love how you make our arguments for us..

His help was supposed to be Amare if im not mistaken. Carmelo didnt ruin that either. Amare just cant stay healthy.

it is not possible for those two to help each other anyway. too bad amare can't stay healthy enough to prove that to you and everyone else who feels it is never melo's fault....

Can you just make that your sig? That way you want have to say it at the end of all of your posts. Im just looking out for you.

I've blamed Melo when he deserved blame. I've also said this to you about as much times as you say your famous "its never melos fault" catch phrase. Just because I dont blame him as much as you like, doesnt mean I dont blame him at all.

Lastly, if Amare and Melo played together and didnt work out, I wouldnt ignore it and blame it all on Amare. I'd logically access the situation - without bias - and go from there. Im gonna ask you once more to stop generalizing.

The problem isn't the generalization. The problem is that his template for those characterized as "Melo supporters" is not accurate at all. I regularly defend Melo against guys like 3G4G, tkf and him but I'll readily admit the dudes flaws. To start:

1.) I think he was incredibly short-sighted in forcing his way here during the season. Was Amare suppose to be his no.2 man/help? Yeah but in a league where contenders were wielding a 3-headed monster (Celtics: Garnett, Pierce, Rondo/Allen ; Lakers: Kobe, Gasol, Bynum/Odom ; Heat: LeBron, Wade Bosh; Spurs: Duncan, Parker, Ginobli; etc.), he should've signed here and allow us to parlay those "assets" for another prominent player. In all honesty, he could've forced a sign and trade in the offseason and still been basically making the salary that he is now. I personally think he cost us CP3 because all signs pointed to him forcing his way to New York.

2.) Melo can be his own worst enemy by holding the ball and stagnating the offense. I think this tendency is grossly overstated but it definitely happens.

3.) Despite being a very good scorer and improved defender, he should be a better rebounder like Bonn pointed out to me. Also, he should be a much better drive and kick player as well as more fluent in the pick and roll while being the ballhandler/passer.

With that being said, I think his overall contribution to the team trumps any of his negatives which can easily be corrected especially with more capable players to shoulder the burden/demands of a contender.

Nothing more to be said excellent.

TeamBall wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:the best way forward is to trade carmelo anthony while he still has value. by the end of next season's playoff futility melo's value will drop significantly.

his only hope is getting in genuine nba shape, improve his footwork, devote his energy to playing defense, working on his dribble while keeping his head up so he can make plays off the dribble, and using head and ball fakes to get to the line 10-12 times a game.

if he does all these things he can help lead a team to the finals. he doesn't need help that's bullcrap-- he needs to help himself and learn how to help others, play for others. he needs to work on his game all summer long. wonder what he's up to right now. sure hope he's working on all these things.

Dk, I said this to another poster.. I think camelo will best help a team as he gets older and his role can be reduced. He is a gunner, a shooter, nothing more.. as a 6th man, on the right team, i think he can be a real weapon.. ala Jamal crawford.. I know people don't want to hear that, but I think that will be where he sees the most success, as a team in his whole career..

You just compared the scoring champ to Jamal Crawford. I know you hate him, but come on. He has led his team to the playoffs every season, give it a break.

Think of Melo as Pierce just before they got Garnett and Allen, except Melo has slightly more success prior to that point. That is the type of player he will become and the role he excels in. Still the first option but plenty of additional help.

well first of all I didn't compare him to Jamal crawford and who cares about him being gifted a scoring title by durant.. I mean really? why can't we say, we compared former 6th man of the year in crawford to carmelo? should that be a knock on Jamal..

He has led his team to the playoffs every season, give it a break.

now here we go! LOL. ." He LED his team" ok.. so what help does carmelo need? why is it always he "leads his team", but when they exit in the first round it is.. He needs help.. You can't have it both ways... The truth is, carmelo has been on some good teams, he has come up short in the playoffs.. A lot... his personal performances in the playoffs have been subpar for the most part... so I will give it a break when you give it a break.

Think of Melo as Pierce just before they got Garnett and Allen, except Melo has slightly more success prior to that point. That is the type of player he will become and the role he excels in. Still the first option but plenty of additional help.

hell while I am at it, why can't I think of shumpert as Dwayne wade, or chandler as Bill Russel.. come on man.. carmelo is Nothing like pierce, nothing at all.. I can think of carmelo as Glen Robinson, very similar games and approach... that is more realistic, which is why I said, his best years as a team player may come with him as a 6th man.. it suits his skillset and mentality perfectly..... A gunner who really has nothing more to his game than scoring... honestly, i think he will do well in that position.. but again, I know this will upset most of the MELO fans... but down the road most fans will be selling him as the best 6th man to ever live.. just watch..LOL

melo and glenn robinson have very very similar numbers you are absolutely right. robinson was better at sharing the ball though. interestingly he latched on with the spurs just in time to win a ring as a guy who averaged about 10 minutes a game.

pierce is by far a superior player. he always had playmaking skills off the dribble even before allen and garnett came along. i love how now we need to compare the pre-2007 pierce to carmelo. if carmelo had ever developed the skills that pierce has we would not be in the fix we are in right now. but melo's footwork is just plain bad, and his ball-handling skills are mostly non-existent when it comes to keeping the head up and finding open teammates. these holes in his game will always hinder him from meshing or making others around him better... two things pierce does effortlessly.

good point and I agree, especially about pierce.. but you know what is odd.. ask every melo fan who is better carmelo or pierce... they will say carmelo because " he can scooooooore".. yet they are the same ones who use as his defense, that he will morph into a pierce type player..LOL.. now what sense does that make?

You're surprised that Melo fans - people who are solely fans of the player Carmelo Anthony - would pick him over Paul Pierce? They're Melo fans for a reason.
Luckily, there arent really Melo fans here. There are plenty of Knick fans though.

hahahaha .... good one