Knixkik wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

Vmart wrote:Forget the sources, everyone knows that the Knicks need to get better. They need help scoring all their bigs were a big let down this year. Relying on JR Smith to be a scoring option isn't what you call a smart decision. Ray Felton coming up small in elimination game speaks volumes about his game. Shumpert is still feeling his way through the injury. So if you really look at the Knicks roster they need help a lot of it because most of the vets they relied on for the fast start are done.

All the vets are broken down players. Amare can't really rely on him to be healthy, same with Camby, Kidd is finished, Wallace retired, and Kenyon is a one way player at this stage in his career. There is very little to work with for the Knicks. I can't see the Knicks having a year like they did this year. The Knicks window was this year only unlike Boston had with their vets KG, Peirce and Allen.

Knicks at are a stage where they have to create a new window of opportunity. The window for this current team is closed.

I agree with you but I think we have a core u settling issue that unless addressed will mean we won't be able to win a chip with Melo. It's the combination of a "Star" player who is a one dimensional ball hog and a coach unable to design and run an offense.

If we can get a coach who can force Melo to play in an offensive system and not have him pout about the ridiculous number of shots he is jacking up or if we can get another star player who becomes the primary option with Melo playing the secondary option then our window will re-open.

What we will do instead is repeat this insanity where we spend the entire season without an offensive plan and without involving any of the supporting cast in the offense and then when Melo fails to score 60 points during the playoffs we will pint fingers at everyone but him.

What no one explains is how the supporting players are suddenly expected to start making shots after being completely ignored and forgotten on offense throughout the entire season. That applies to just about everyone except JR and he had a meltdown.

Our problems are simple:

A. Melo can't play with others who need to score the ball - unless he had a guy like Coach K to check his ego
B. Melo then has issues with not having others that can score the ball
C. Woody doesn't know how to coach an offense

If we can solve one of those we might get closer.

We need a scorer bad, one who can shoot and play off of Melo. If its a guard they must be a 3-pt shooter, if its a bigman they must be a solid midrange shooter and post scorer in the David West mold. But we need a guy. I would like to see Shumpert become the 3rd option and JR Smith as the 4th option and 6th man of course. Shumpert does have star potential and can increase his role each year, but we need that 2nd guy now and can't rely on him to be that until year 4 or 5.

we need a star player Melo can play off. Not a scorer to play off Melo. Scorers dont play off Melo because he doesnt pass the ball.

Thought after 10 years in the NBA folks would realize what he is and stop trying to make him into something else.

He needs a player similar to Billups. I never considered Billups a true star (close to it), but the perfect 2nd option to Melo. Only problem was Billups was towards the end of his prime. We need that type of player. Durant has Westbrook in that role. Sort of a 1B guy. Nothing wrong with that, most guys need that to compete for a title.

No one blows up a team that's a lock to reach the finals and compete for a chip right now - yes Durant has help AND far more importantly he appreciates what he has. He doesn't need to take all the shots and play for the scoring title. Does anyone label Durant as selfish or one dimensional? Are you really comparing our dear black hole with Kevin Durant????

Melo's problem is his selfishness and no amount of help can cure him of that. And unless he himself is able to get past it all he will ever be is world's most talented one dimensional ball hog and mental midget.

This issue in combination with Woody's complete inability to coach an offense will mean the exact sane results next year and beyond. There isn't one player in the league outside of CP3 tgat both Melo and Woody will allow to dictate terms. And we can't get him no matter what goes down.

Again we need one of two things to happen:

Coaching change -where we get a guy like Coach K, PJAX or Sloan
Primary star player - for some combination of Tyson/Shumpert/STAT/Melo

I don't care which -but the team as it stands now will be third or fourthin the East behind Heat, Pacers, Bulls and Celts - IIWII

Bottom line is if Melo and durant switched places each team would expect similar results. Your opinion about Melo is nothing but that. I look at results. He got us to the second round without another star. Melo haters think he should have told Denver not to trade him so he could sign with us for less money in the lockout offseason. Be realistic. Also look at his supporting cast. Good role players who looked better around him, but were asked to do too much. Of course he will be selfish. Your personal agenda against him is just unreal. Give him a secondary star and we are competing with Miami right now.

Please don't generalize without knowing what you are talking about. I never said anything about the trade or expected him to do anything different. If you approach a discussion saying everything I say is an opinion and everything you say is a fact then you my friend are the one who is agenda driven and unreal. No one knows what would happen if Durant and Melo were swapped - you have your opinion such as it is, and I have mine.
I don't like Melo and I don't think we will win a championship with him. And I would happily give up my left arm if we could trade him straight up for Durant.

Jmpasq wrote:Can someone explain to me why Timothy Mozgov is pined over like he is Shaq

tkf wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Papabear wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I don't why know some insist on going back to to the origin of melo to the knicks, doesn't even matter, he's here.. Grunwald was looking like a wizard up until the game 6 of the 2nd round of the 2012/2013 playoffs.

But what these playoffs have done is exposed the hell out the knicks roster and now grunwald isn't looking close to a competent GM..Nobody on the roster played consistent right down to the coach.

The loading up on vets back fired so bad,you wanna put your head down and pray nobody notice...TOO LATE, then playing them ridciculous minutes to capture home court that you gave away in the 1st damn game..

Remember when they kept giving DON Cheney extensions even though he kept losing,and I don't want to put woodson in the same BOAT, but as GM you have to be concern with what you have witness in your coaches playoff history..IT AINT GOOD..

When Melo is talking about needing help, should we think that he's tired of woodson calling his # all the time or is melo calling his own number..

Papabear Says

I think Melo took a beating this season and he does not want to go through that again. Since he won the scoring title and took a beating I think he really wants and needs help. He does not want to get a beating like this season again. I believe that he really wants a title and is willing to do what it takes and even giving up some money to get star or good players.

I feel this too. I remember when Wade asked for help and guess what happened next LeBron and Bosh. I think you can take a pulse of the team by what it's star player needs. I think Melo has had enough of playing out of position. Last night I saw LeBron get frustrated guarding West at PF to the point where he was uncharacteristically playing flustered and committing fouls.

Knicks need a scoring big man and a scoring PF and a star PG or someone who can create. Also Woody needs to get better a execution offense by that I don't mean executing isolation plays.

wade already had a ring right? the point is, the excuse for carmelo is always needing help.. LOL.. the problem I think is, he needs to be more help... that is always overlooked...

Knicks need a scoring big man and a scoring PF and a star PG or someone who can create

vmart, every single team in the league needs and wants that... which is why you don't max your team out with such flawed players... tell carmelo to take a cap friendly deal around the 12-15 mil range, one more suited to his actual overall skill set and maybe they can use the extra money to fill in the gaps...

Yes I know every single team wants that. But that is the state of the Knicks. They don't have a PF and their center is one way player who can be severely out played by a two way centers. As for Melo taking less money no he should try to get the max he can get. That would be like you taking a pay cut because management has mismanaged money. The big problem isn't Melo's contract the problem is Amare, Chandler, Kidd, Camby and Novak getting severely over payed.

Some are directing their frustration on the wrong player, It's not on Melo he is your most talented player. There simply isn't enough talent on the Knicks to go Championship. When are you guys going to realize that everyone on the Knicks aside from Melo is a backup player. If you infused the Knicks players with the Pacers none of the Knicks except Melo would start for the Pacers.

Bonn1997 wrote:

Vmart wrote:

tkf wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Papabear wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I don't why know some insist on going back to to the origin of melo to the knicks, doesn't even matter, he's here.. Grunwald was looking like a wizard up until the game 6 of the 2nd round of the 2012/2013 playoffs.

But what these playoffs have done is exposed the hell out the knicks roster and now grunwald isn't looking close to a competent GM..Nobody on the roster played consistent right down to the coach.

The loading up on vets back fired so bad,you wanna put your head down and pray nobody notice...TOO LATE, then playing them ridciculous minutes to capture home court that you gave away in the 1st damn game..

Remember when they kept giving DON Cheney extensions even though he kept losing,and I don't want to put woodson in the same BOAT, but as GM you have to be concern with what you have witness in your coaches playoff history..IT AINT GOOD..

When Melo is talking about needing help, should we think that he's tired of woodson calling his # all the time or is melo calling his own number..

Papabear Says

I think Melo took a beating this season and he does not want to go through that again. Since he won the scoring title and took a beating I think he really wants and needs help. He does not want to get a beating like this season again. I believe that he really wants a title and is willing to do what it takes and even giving up some money to get star or good players.

I feel this too. I remember when Wade asked for help and guess what happened next LeBron and Bosh. I think you can take a pulse of the team by what it's star player needs. I think Melo has had enough of playing out of position. Last night I saw LeBron get frustrated guarding West at PF to the point where he was uncharacteristically playing flustered and committing fouls.

Knicks need a scoring big man and a scoring PF and a star PG or someone who can create. Also Woody needs to get better a execution offense by that I don't mean executing isolation plays.

wade already had a ring right? the point is, the excuse for carmelo is always needing help.. LOL.. the problem I think is, he needs to be more help... that is always overlooked...

Knicks need a scoring big man and a scoring PF and a star PG or someone who can create

vmart, every single team in the league needs and wants that... which is why you don't max your team out with such flawed players... tell carmelo to take a cap friendly deal around the 12-15 mil range, one more suited to his actual overall skill set and maybe they can use the extra money to fill in the gaps...

Yes I know every single team wants that. But that is the state of the Knicks. They don't have a PF and their center is one way player who can be severely out played by a two way centers. As for Melo taking less money no he should try to get the max he can get. That would be like you taking a pay cut because management has mismanaged money. The big problem isn't Melo's contract the problem is Amare, Chandler, Kidd, Camby and Novak getting severely over payed.

Some are directing their frustration on the wrong player, It's not on Melo he is your most talented player. There simply isn't enough talent on the Knicks to go Championship. When are you guys going to realize that everyone on the Knicks aside from Melo is a backup player. If you infused the Knicks players with the Pacers none of the Knicks except Melo would start for the Pacers.

It's on all the players. Melo is part of the problem but only part of it. Until someone shows me an example of a team that won a championship with a player taking 25 shots and getting 2 assists a game, I'll believe that Melo is a part of the problem. Those focusing solely on Melo and those deflecting blame away from him are both equally wrong IMO.

I'm not absolving Melo of anything. I always say Melo has to shot 50% from the floor, 4-5 assists and 7 rebounds. If the talent isn't there for him to get assists then it's just not there. I didn't see Felton racking up assists and he was the PG. the loss to the Pacers was a team loss everyone including the coach. Everyone is focusing on Melo he is the least of the Knicks problems.

Vmart wrote:

tkf wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Papabear wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I don't why know some insist on going back to to the origin of melo to the knicks, doesn't even matter, he's here.. Grunwald was looking like a wizard up until the game 6 of the 2nd round of the 2012/2013 playoffs.

But what these playoffs have done is exposed the hell out the knicks roster and now grunwald isn't looking close to a competent GM..Nobody on the roster played consistent right down to the coach.

The loading up on vets back fired so bad,you wanna put your head down and pray nobody notice...TOO LATE, then playing them ridciculous minutes to capture home court that you gave away in the 1st damn game..

Remember when they kept giving DON Cheney extensions even though he kept losing,and I don't want to put woodson in the same BOAT, but as GM you have to be concern with what you have witness in your coaches playoff history..IT AINT GOOD..

When Melo is talking about needing help, should we think that he's tired of woodson calling his # all the time or is melo calling his own number..

Papabear Says

I think Melo took a beating this season and he does not want to go through that again. Since he won the scoring title and took a beating I think he really wants and needs help. He does not want to get a beating like this season again. I believe that he really wants a title and is willing to do what it takes and even giving up some money to get star or good players.

I feel this too. I remember when Wade asked for help and guess what happened next LeBron and Bosh. I think you can take a pulse of the team by what it's star player needs. I think Melo has had enough of playing out of position. Last night I saw LeBron get frustrated guarding West at PF to the point where he was uncharacteristically playing flustered and committing fouls.

Knicks need a scoring big man and a scoring PF and a star PG or someone who can create. Also Woody needs to get better a execution offense by that I don't mean executing isolation plays.

wade already had a ring right? the point is, the excuse for carmelo is always needing help.. LOL.. the problem I think is, he needs to be more help... that is always overlooked...

Knicks need a scoring big man and a scoring PF and a star PG or someone who can create

vmart, every single team in the league needs and wants that... which is why you don't max your team out with such flawed players... tell carmelo to take a cap friendly deal around the 12-15 mil range, one more suited to his actual overall skill set and maybe they can use the extra money to fill in the gaps...

Yes I know every single team wants that. But that is the state of the Knicks. They don't have a PF and their center is one way player who can be severely out played by a two way centers. As for Melo taking less money no he should try to get the max he can get. That would be like you taking a pay cut because management has mismanaged money. The big problem isn't Melo's contract the problem is Amare, Chandler, Kidd, Camby and Novak getting severely over payed.

Some are directing their frustration on the wrong player, It's not on Melo he is your most talented player. There simply isn't enough talent on the Knicks to go Championship. When are you guys going to realize that everyone on the Knicks aside from Melo is a backup player. If you infused the Knicks players with the Pacers none of the Knicks except Melo would start for the Pacers.

no it isn't vmart, because he could have gotten all his money staying put in Denver.. that is like me leaving a company where I make top dollar, and going to another company to make top dollar and then complain, that we don't have a good support group... either I take less so that I can get a good team around me, or shut up.... Carmelo was well aware of the situation he was getting into...

If you infused the Knicks players with the Pacers none of the Knicks except Melo would start for the Pacers.

if you want to keep it real, I would not start carmelo over paul George.... you see, you can't keep setting carmelo up on this pedestal when he is as much of the problem here... he said this was the best team he played with. so there you go..

Bonn1997 wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Vmart wrote:

tkf wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Papabear wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I don't why know some insist on going back to to the origin of melo to the knicks, doesn't even matter, he's here.. Grunwald was looking like a wizard up until the game 6 of the 2nd round of the 2012/2013 playoffs.

But what these playoffs have done is exposed the hell out the knicks roster and now grunwald isn't looking close to a competent GM..Nobody on the roster played consistent right down to the coach.

The loading up on vets back fired so bad,you wanna put your head down and pray nobody notice...TOO LATE, then playing them ridciculous minutes to capture home court that you gave away in the 1st damn game..

Remember when they kept giving DON Cheney extensions even though he kept losing,and I don't want to put woodson in the same BOAT, but as GM you have to be concern with what you have witness in your coaches playoff history..IT AINT GOOD..

When Melo is talking about needing help, should we think that he's tired of woodson calling his # all the time or is melo calling his own number..

Papabear Says

I think Melo took a beating this season and he does not want to go through that again. Since he won the scoring title and took a beating I think he really wants and needs help. He does not want to get a beating like this season again. I believe that he really wants a title and is willing to do what it takes and even giving up some money to get star or good players.

I feel this too. I remember when Wade asked for help and guess what happened next LeBron and Bosh. I think you can take a pulse of the team by what it's star player needs. I think Melo has had enough of playing out of position. Last night I saw LeBron get frustrated guarding West at PF to the point where he was uncharacteristically playing flustered and committing fouls.

Knicks need a scoring big man and a scoring PF and a star PG or someone who can create. Also Woody needs to get better a execution offense by that I don't mean executing isolation plays.

wade already had a ring right? the point is, the excuse for carmelo is always needing help.. LOL.. the problem I think is, he needs to be more help... that is always overlooked...

Knicks need a scoring big man and a scoring PF and a star PG or someone who can create

vmart, every single team in the league needs and wants that... which is why you don't max your team out with such flawed players... tell carmelo to take a cap friendly deal around the 12-15 mil range, one more suited to his actual overall skill set and maybe they can use the extra money to fill in the gaps...

Yes I know every single team wants that. But that is the state of the Knicks. They don't have a PF and their center is one way player who can be severely out played by a two way centers. As for Melo taking less money no he should try to get the max he can get. That would be like you taking a pay cut because management has mismanaged money. The big problem isn't Melo's contract the problem is Amare, Chandler, Kidd, Camby and Novak getting severely over payed.

Some are directing their frustration on the wrong player, It's not on Melo he is your most talented player. There simply isn't enough talent on the Knicks to go Championship. When are you guys going to realize that everyone on the Knicks aside from Melo is a backup player. If you infused the Knicks players with the Pacers none of the Knicks except Melo would start for the Pacers.

It's on all the players. Melo is part of the problem but only part of it. Until someone shows me an example of a team that won a championship with a player taking 25 shots and getting 2 assists a game, I'll believe that Melo is a part of the problem. Those focusing solely on Melo and those deflecting blame away from him are both equally wrong IMO.

I'm not absolving Melo of anything. I always say Melo has to shot 50% from the floor, 4-5 assists and 7 rebounds. If the talent isn't there for him to get assists then it's just not there. I didn't see Felton racking up assists and he was the PG. the loss to the Pacers was a team loss everyone including the coach. Everyone is focusing on Melo he is the least of the Knicks problems.

I'll cut and paste this from the other thread:

Supporting cast FG% in 2nd round:
Durant: .390
Melo: .400 (including JR)

Assists per game:
Durant: 7
Melo: 1

Felton was mainly an SG or combo guard. Prigs played a lot of PG. Felton had 4.7 assists a game but he also had only 1.7 turnovers per game, which comes out to an excellent ratio. That's about as many assists as you could expect from an SG/combo guard.

felton may have played the off gaurd position which he is absolute not a SG, but he did ok. The team was like dead last in assist because of the ISO's and melo and JR constantly holding the ball.

The fact that we we avg the fewest assist was so misleading it wasn't even funny, the fact that melo (2.7) and jr (1.8)avg the most TO's is proof that they controlled the ball and bearly pass with a combine assist avg of 5.1

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:so where does the fact that NY had one of the most efficient offenses last year weigh in?

Well they had the most efficient scorer and best offensive rebounder in the game. So that shouldn't be surprising.

One of the most efficient 5 fga shooting big man that most bigs can do the same thing. Yeah he lead the offense. Imagine if Chandler scored as high of percentage of his O rebounds as some other top bigs do. The offense would actually be silly great.

Knixkik wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

Vmart wrote:Forget the sources, everyone knows that the Knicks need to get better. They need help scoring all their bigs were a big let down this year. Relying on JR Smith to be a scoring option isn't what you call a smart decision. Ray Felton coming up small in elimination game speaks volumes about his game. Shumpert is still feeling his way through the injury. So if you really look at the Knicks roster they need help a lot of it because most of the vets they relied on for the fast start are done.

All the vets are broken down players. Amare can't really rely on him to be healthy, same with Camby, Kidd is finished, Wallace retired, and Kenyon is a one way player at this stage in his career. There is very little to work with for the Knicks. I can't see the Knicks having a year like they did this year. The Knicks window was this year only unlike Boston had with their vets KG, Peirce and Allen.

Knicks at are a stage where they have to create a new window of opportunity. The window for this current team is closed.

I agree with you but I think we have a core u settling issue that unless addressed will mean we won't be able to win a chip with Melo. It's the combination of a "Star" player who is a one dimensional ball hog and a coach unable to design and run an offense.

If we can get a coach who can force Melo to play in an offensive system and not have him pout about the ridiculous number of shots he is jacking up or if we can get another star player who becomes the primary option with Melo playing the secondary option then our window will re-open.

What we will do instead is repeat this insanity where we spend the entire season without an offensive plan and without involving any of the supporting cast in the offense and then when Melo fails to score 60 points during the playoffs we will pint fingers at everyone but him.

What no one explains is how the supporting players are suddenly expected to start making shots after being completely ignored and forgotten on offense throughout the entire season. That applies to just about everyone except JR and he had a meltdown.

Our problems are simple:

A. Melo can't play with others who need to score the ball - unless he had a guy like Coach K to check his ego
B. Melo then has issues with not having others that can score the ball
C. Woody doesn't know how to coach an offense

If we can solve one of those we might get closer.

We need a scorer bad, one who can shoot and play off of Melo. If its a guard they must be a 3-pt shooter, if its a bigman they must be a solid midrange shooter and post scorer in the David West mold. But we need a guy. I would like to see Shumpert become the 3rd option and JR Smith as the 4th option and 6th man of course. Shumpert does have star potential and can increase his role each year, but we need that 2nd guy now and can't rely on him to be that until year 4 or 5.

we need a star player Melo can play off. Not a scorer to play off Melo. Scorers dont play off Melo because he doesnt pass the ball.

Thought after 10 years in the NBA folks would realize what he is and stop trying to make him into something else.

He needs a player similar to Billups. I never considered Billups a true star (close to it), but the perfect 2nd option to Melo. Only problem was Billups was towards the end of his prime. We need that type of player. Durant has Westbrook in that role. Sort of a 1B guy. Nothing wrong with that, most guys need that to compete for a title.

No one blows up a team that's a lock to reach the finals and compete for a chip right now - yes Durant has help AND far more importantly he appreciates what he has. He doesn't need to take all the shots and play for the scoring title. Does anyone label Durant as selfish or one dimensional? Are you really comparing our dear black hole with Kevin Durant????

Melo's problem is his selfishness and no amount of help can cure him of that. And unless he himself is able to get past it all he will ever be is world's most talented one dimensional ball hog and mental midget.

This issue in combination with Woody's complete inability to coach an offense will mean the exact sane results next year and beyond. There isn't one player in the league outside of CP3 tgat both Melo and Woody will allow to dictate terms. And we can't get him no matter what goes down.

Again we need one of two things to happen:

Coaching change -where we get a guy like Coach K, PJAX or Sloan
Primary star player - for some combination of Tyson/Shumpert/STAT/Melo

I don't care which -but the team as it stands now will be third or fourthin the East behind Heat, Pacers, Bulls and Celts - IIWII

Bottom line is if Melo and durant switched places each team would expect similar results. Your opinion about Melo is nothing but that. I look at results. He got us to the second round without another star. Melo haters think he should have told Denver not to trade him so he could sign with us for less money in the lockout offseason. Be realistic. Also look at his supporting cast. Good role players who looked better around him, but were asked to do too much. Of course he will be selfish. Your personal agenda against him is just unreal. Give him a secondary star and we are competing with Miami right now.

Results? There isnt much similar in Melo vs. Durant come playoff time.
Melo 66 games .417FG% 7.3rebs 2.8assists 1.3steals 0.3blocks 2.91TOs 25.7PPG
Durant 54 games .463FG% 8rebs 3.8assists 1.2steals 1.2bllocks 3.15TOs 28.6PPG

The only relation to Melo and Durant in these playoffs is they both were elimatined by better teams. Durant however performed at a very high level. Dude gives you 31ppg, 9rebs, 6assists when his 1b goes down and still shoots .455

These comparisons are a total joke.

Why cant you just admit Melo has performed poorly in these playoffs as a Knick? ALL of them? Sure he has some big games. Followed by 10-35 and 6-16 type shooting performances in following games. Thats been his whole career w/ Denver and Knicks also. Keep telling yourself its going to change. This is not Melo hate or Knick hate. This is reality.

We have seen Melo beast. We have seen him play elite BB. We have seen him lead Denver and NY teams on extended runs winning tons of regular season games. Look at the start of the season. The guy can play. But he's not consistant and never has been and has pretty easy to see issues in his game and approach that say what you see is what you get with this player.

If Melo wanted to make adjustments he would have played for MDA. This is a guy who has inflated every player's numbers, and when he had talented rosters went deep into the playoffs year after year. That wasnt his style of ball, and Melo doesnt wait in the corner to be passed to. Melo gets the ball and pounds the rock and gets his. Sometimes its great. Sometimes its not. Come playoffs lots more of not than great.