NYKBocker wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:Need to blow this **** up. Unfortunately, Melo is the only desirable asset we have. No one will touch Amare without a sweetener or even Chandler. Shump can be viewed now as damaged goods. JR is JR. Felton is just not that good.

Melo needs a 2nd superstar to play with him to be successful.

I would send do this trade with Cleveland which would pair Melo with Kyrie Irving and they have their Bosh type player in Varejao which would play well with Melo.

Melo for Speights, Tristan Thompson, Dion Waiters, Alonzo Gee, CLE 1st round pick 3rd overall, both CLE 2nd round picks 31st and 33rd overall.

Why would CLE do this? This will leave CLE with a 1st round pick 19th overall so they still have some yoot coming in. They now will have a big 3 in Melo, Irving and Varejao that will actually work well together. They will also have some cap to sign a very good big in the mold of Al Jefferson or Paul Milsap. This roster will actually put them in the playoffs.

Why do we do this? We get their 1st round pick overall. We get 2 young lottery players in Waiters and Thompson. We get 2 early 2nd round picks. We get yoothier right away.

I would not re-sign anybody from our current roster except for Copeland. Including Pablo. I would let JR walk if he exercises his option.

I would then try to see if Lakers would take Amare and Shump for Gasol. Amare is more MDA's player and maybe they can have a Suns revival in LaLa land. Amare and Nash have the same length in contract. Gasol contract is 1 year shorter than Amare. Also, imagine Shump and the Black Mamba terrorizing the other teams backcourt with defense?

I would also try to get rid Camby. Maybe send him to ORL for TurkeyGlue's expiring contract. Camby and Felton for TurkeyGlue.

Now for the draft. I am not a college basketball guy so I will defer to BRIGGS scouting on this. I really like his reports and he has been more right than wrong in most cases.

For the 1st round pick 3rd overall, I am looking the PG spot or a big center. Looking at BRIGGS Top 10 NBA prospects, Alen Len and CJ McCollum caught my eye. Our need for a PG weighs heavily and If CJ's comparison is Steph Curry then I am picking CJ McCollum.

For our own 24th pick I am looking for a SF. GIANNIS ADETOKUNBO. This kid will be a sleeper.

For the 31st pick, 1st pick in the 2nd round, I will select the BRIGGS favorite. Nate Wolters. He is not projected in the 1st round so he might be available in the 2nd round.

For the 33rd pick, I am looking for a SG with very good shooting skills. Allen Crabbe. NBADraft.net compares him to Hubbert Davis.

Roster would look like this.

C- Chandler/Speights
PF- Gasol/Thompson
SF- Copeland/ADETOKUNBO/Novak/TurkeyGlue
SG- Waiters/Gee/Crabbe
PF- McCollum/Wolters/Kidd

You have 2 young guards in Waiters and McCollum that can shoot. SF will be by committee until Adetokunbo is ready. Chandler and Gasol will protect the paint.

Boom!

EDIT: Fire Woody and sign JVG.

Dude, no. Remember that the grass is always greener. We're no doubt a middling team but that is a better option than being perennially stuck in the lottery. All our contracts expire in 2015, so lets just sit tight, enjoy the show and begin making moves then if they are necessary. That free agent class has Kyrie Irving, Marc Gasol, Kevin Love and Paul George in it.

These moves will put us in play for the 2015 FA class.

I disagree. You attractive stars with other stars (see Wade attracting Bosh and LeBron). None of the guys you mentioned have star potential/or will be stars by 2015. The safer bet is to keep Melo, to at least facilitate a sign and trade for a member of the 2015 group I mentioned.

You have to keep Melo. In 2015 at the latest, give him another star to play with. Melo will be older and hopefully start transitioning into a 1B or #2 option with the addition of a true star player. Grass really isn't always greener. You can't just trade Melo. We saw what happened to OKC with Durant on his own too. Be patient and happy that we are a good, but not great team. Much better than being a lotto team. It is not that easy to rebuild. In 2015 if things are still the same we can sign another star to join Melo, Shumpert, and Felton. It should be a given around here that Melo isn't going anywhere, nor should he, so start focusing on how to improve with him in the plans.

I agree that Melo is top talent...but here is the rub. How do you get capable players to play with him? We are handicapped right now with Amare's contract. Tyson is proving to be a bad match in the frontline with Melo. You need a C that can actually hit an outside shot and rebounds at a high clip. How are you getting this? That is 3 contracts that will stop us from improving. I was actually wearing my Knick Colored glasses when that trio was introduced. I thought it was a great match. Dang...I was wrong. I like Melo's game minus the blackhole part, but if you can't get him the right pieces then he becomes an asset. That roster I suggested would actually get you to the playoffs.

Would you rather be knocked out of the 1st/2nd round next year with a geriatric group or would you rather be knocked out of the 1st/2nd round next year with a yoothier core with a mixture of established veterans that has a better future? I would take the latter.

With the Wizards, Raptors and Pistons looming as playoff threats the next few seasons, I doubt the playoffs would be a guarantee for your roster. The appreciation of young talent comes from what they can become and seldom on what they actually are. Those guys will likely have flashes of brilliance during the season but flashes of anything does not produce the effort needed to build a winning team. Its the main reason why seasoned coaches are reluctant to play young players. I for one, am tired of looking at marginal talents like Channing Frye, Trevor Ariza, Nate Robinson, Gallinari and Wilson Chandler, while listening to Knick fans trying to make an argument that these guys will be perennial all-star caliber players.

Trading away Carmelo is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Yes, we don't have very much flexibility for improving the team but that doesn't mean that we don't have options. I personally think that most of our guys have market value and that is most of the battle when it comes to making a good trade. We just need to be crafty, which Grunwald has proven to be. The one thing he should look to improve upon, however, is to groom young talent in the back-end of the roster like what Briggs has been suggesting. You never know when you might be able to stumble across a Marc Gasol, Nikola Pekovic, Marcin Gortat, etc.

Banking on young talent is tough and you really have to have some kind of skill in evaluating talent. You can trust the people that are paid to do this and make educated guesses. The roster I have suggested will actually have 2 number 4 picks in the last 2 years. Tristan is the #4 pick in 2011 and Waiters is the #4 pick last year. Plus you get the #3 pick this year. These are not marginal talents.

Trading Carmelo right now while his value is high is good business.

Problem contracts are Melo, Tyson, Camby, Kidd and Novak. They have value to get you players to run with Melo?

Trading Melo is not good business because you won't get equal value back, and can't replace him. And honestly there is no reason to discuss it because zero reason he gets traded. It makes no sense from a business standpoint either. Why trade him just to try to work your way back up to where we are now. A 53-win team and 2nd round exit is what we would get out of that team when they fully develop in 3-5 years as best case scenario. No point in that. We are a 2nd round team now with an out in 2 years. Continue to build off of our big pieces in Anthony and Shumpert. They are the reason the future is still bright. We have one of the best scorers in the league at 28 years old and one of the best future perimeter defenders at 23.

you would trade him to get past where you are now.. build a team that is built to contend for a title... that would be the idea...

Why do you think it is that simple? There are 14 other teams trying to do the same thing and are in the lottery. Do these Cavs players suddenly transform into all-stars as soon as we trade for them? Is it that simple to draft a starting PG for a championship team with the 24th pick? My point is that however you rebuild, your rebuilding effort has about a 5% chance of putting together a roster that is as good or better than what we have now. I will stick with this team and look for ways to improve rather than start from scratch. Again, the grass isn't always greener.

The scenario I presented will give us the #3 pick overall. You can get a lottery pick PG. CJ McCollum looks like a game changer type of PG in the Steph Curry mold.

These Cavs players? So just because they were with the Cavs you will ignore their body of work? What they were projected prior to their respective drafts?
Tristan Thompson has a chance to be a double double machine. This year he averaged 11.7 ppg and 9.4 rpg.
Dion Waiters averaged 14.7 ppg with only 2 TOpg in his rookie year.

To build a team you need to build from the ground up. Its like building a car. You don't use up all your money on the engine and then nickel and dime the rest of the parts hoping the engine alone will get you to the finish line. What happens when yours shocks, tires or any other part breaks? How about running out of gas? This happened to the Knicks this year. You think it will be better moving forward?

Will it get better? I'm not sure, but i think the odds of it getting better with this team are significantly higher then with a rebuilding team. Just ask the Bobcats, Wizards, Pistons, Kings, Twolves, Bucks, and many more who have been going thru the same rebuilding process for many, many years. It just isn't as simple as trade Melo. I get it Indiana, OKC, and Memphis have done a good job at it, but to get to that point takes a lot of luck beyond the control of talented management. And again, this is all a moot point because Melo is not getting traded. Focus your energy on coming up with ideas to build with him instead. He isn't getting traded, and it makes no sense to trade him and start from scratch in the land of the Wiz, Bobcats, and Pistons.

OR we can ask Denver, Houston, GSW, OKC, indy, and memphis, how it went for them as well....

The Nuggets traded for their core: Ty Lawson, Gallo, Chandler, Igoudala, McGee, Andre Miller, Corey Brewer
The Grizzlies traded/signed for their core: Zach Randolph, Marc Gasol, Tony Allen, Jerry Bayless, Ed Davis, Tayshaun Prince, Darrell Arthur
The Rockets traded/signed their core: James Harden, Omer Asik, Jeremy Lin
OKC...you got me there....same with the Pacers.

Well, the suggestion was for trading for young players with a good pedigree. Kinda like these teams you mentioned above. Plus a vet in Gasol that can be the anchor.

But then why does that have to come at the expense of our core? Why can't "young players with a good pedigree" be acquired to build/augument our core like how these teams did? I hate to beat a dead horse but the Spurs have built a multi-year champion with late first round and second round picks. Why can't we just follow that model here in NY, while signing players as necessary?

The point is that there is no other way. Outside of Melo....Who else do we have that will get you what we need?

Spurs? They had The Admiral. Then they had Tim Duncan. You can't really use that as a blueprint. They got these guys in the draft then built around them. Spurs had all their assets and used them accordingly. We have very limited resources. At least not until Tyson and Amare contract expires.

Robinson was only with the Spurs for one championship. The other three were won with Tony Parker and Ginobli playing the no.2 and no.3 roles next to Duncan. Parker was drafted 28th in his draft and Ginobli was taken with the last pick. I don't predict we'd be able to find guys like those in every draft but what has been a common trend are several above average role players being taken much later than they should've been.

In the 2006 draft, the Jazz took Paul Millsap with the 47th pick; the Celtics took Rondo with the 21st pick and the Grizzlies took Lowry with the 24th pick.

In the 2007 draft, the Lakers took Marc Gasol with the 48th pick; the Bucks took Ramon Sessions with the 56th pick; the Sonics/Thunder took Carl Landry with the 31st pick and Glen Davis with the 35th pick; The Piston took Afflao with the 24th pick; the Spurs with the 28th pick.

In the 2008 draft, the Blazers took Omir Asik with the 36th pick; the Spurs took Goran Dragic with the 45th pick; LAC took DeAndre Jordan with the 35th pick; MIN took Mario Chalmers with the 34th pick and Nikola Pekovic with the 31st pick.

...On and on and on, you find players late in the draft that become much more than serviceable role players. Why can't this be the avenue we use to upgrade our roster?

And for all the talk about us not having options from the time we got Melo, we sure as hell have managed to find players that had major impacts with us e.g. Jeremy Lin, Iman Shumpert, Steve Novak, JR Smith, Kenyon Martin, Raymond Felton, Pablo Prigioni, Chris Copeland, etc. Why should we expect this particular trend to stop?

Solace wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:This is somewhat related to the topic but does come as a bit of a tangent. People regard Amare as being untradeable but I disagree. I think the Nets are just stupid enough to take a $20 million/yr player as a 15-20mpg backup. They feel like they are on the cusps of contending and we should be able to leverage that to our benefit. How about:

KNICKS TRADE: Amar'e and $3 million cash
KNICKS RECEIVE: Kris Humphries, Mirza Teletovic, Tornike Shengalia, Keith Bogans (sign and trade) and a $3 million trade exception

The players we'd be receiving in return are all burnouts from their roster, so they don't have much on court value. What they do offer is much greater financial flexibility for us. Kris Humphries' contract expires at the end of the upcoming season while Teletovic and Shengalia only account for $4 million moving forward. Maybe during the season we can get a little creative and flip Humphries' contract for something or someone of value. Just a thought.

Forget it. The Nets are not doing a trade with us. Let alone giving up Mirza Teletovic. Come on...

It makes for a helluva storyline and that is something Prohkorov craves. Them taking away the guy that became symbolic of our turnaround would play in well to that kind of stuff. And Teletovic ain't nothing special. He hasn't played most of the season, so I doubt he'd be the reason why any trade wouldn't happen.

NardDogNation wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:Need to blow this **** up. Unfortunately, Melo is the only desirable asset we have. No one will touch Amare without a sweetener or even Chandler. Shump can be viewed now as damaged goods. JR is JR. Felton is just not that good.

Melo needs a 2nd superstar to play with him to be successful.

I would send do this trade with Cleveland which would pair Melo with Kyrie Irving and they have their Bosh type player in Varejao which would play well with Melo.

Melo for Speights, Tristan Thompson, Dion Waiters, Alonzo Gee, CLE 1st round pick 3rd overall, both CLE 2nd round picks 31st and 33rd overall.

Why would CLE do this? This will leave CLE with a 1st round pick 19th overall so they still have some yoot coming in. They now will have a big 3 in Melo, Irving and Varejao that will actually work well together. They will also have some cap to sign a very good big in the mold of Al Jefferson or Paul Milsap. This roster will actually put them in the playoffs.

Why do we do this? We get their 1st round pick overall. We get 2 young lottery players in Waiters and Thompson. We get 2 early 2nd round picks. We get yoothier right away.

I would not re-sign anybody from our current roster except for Copeland. Including Pablo. I would let JR walk if he exercises his option.

I would then try to see if Lakers would take Amare and Shump for Gasol. Amare is more MDA's player and maybe they can have a Suns revival in LaLa land. Amare and Nash have the same length in contract. Gasol contract is 1 year shorter than Amare. Also, imagine Shump and the Black Mamba terrorizing the other teams backcourt with defense?

I would also try to get rid Camby. Maybe send him to ORL for TurkeyGlue's expiring contract. Camby and Felton for TurkeyGlue.

Now for the draft. I am not a college basketball guy so I will defer to BRIGGS scouting on this. I really like his reports and he has been more right than wrong in most cases.

For the 1st round pick 3rd overall, I am looking the PG spot or a big center. Looking at BRIGGS Top 10 NBA prospects, Alen Len and CJ McCollum caught my eye. Our need for a PG weighs heavily and If CJ's comparison is Steph Curry then I am picking CJ McCollum.

For our own 24th pick I am looking for a SF. GIANNIS ADETOKUNBO. This kid will be a sleeper.

For the 31st pick, 1st pick in the 2nd round, I will select the BRIGGS favorite. Nate Wolters. He is not projected in the 1st round so he might be available in the 2nd round.

For the 33rd pick, I am looking for a SG with very good shooting skills. Allen Crabbe. NBADraft.net compares him to Hubbert Davis.

Roster would look like this.

C- Chandler/Speights
PF- Gasol/Thompson
SF- Copeland/ADETOKUNBO/Novak/TurkeyGlue
SG- Waiters/Gee/Crabbe
PF- McCollum/Wolters/Kidd

You have 2 young guards in Waiters and McCollum that can shoot. SF will be by committee until Adetokunbo is ready. Chandler and Gasol will protect the paint.

Boom!

EDIT: Fire Woody and sign JVG.

Dude, no. Remember that the grass is always greener. We're no doubt a middling team but that is a better option than being perennially stuck in the lottery. All our contracts expire in 2015, so lets just sit tight, enjoy the show and begin making moves then if they are necessary. That free agent class has Kyrie Irving, Marc Gasol, Kevin Love and Paul George in it.

These moves will put us in play for the 2015 FA class.

I disagree. You attractive stars with other stars (see Wade attracting Bosh and LeBron). None of the guys you mentioned have star potential/or will be stars by 2015. The safer bet is to keep Melo, to at least facilitate a sign and trade for a member of the 2015 group I mentioned.

You have to keep Melo. In 2015 at the latest, give him another star to play with. Melo will be older and hopefully start transitioning into a 1B or #2 option with the addition of a true star player. Grass really isn't always greener. You can't just trade Melo. We saw what happened to OKC with Durant on his own too. Be patient and happy that we are a good, but not great team. Much better than being a lotto team. It is not that easy to rebuild. In 2015 if things are still the same we can sign another star to join Melo, Shumpert, and Felton. It should be a given around here that Melo isn't going anywhere, nor should he, so start focusing on how to improve with him in the plans.

I agree that Melo is top talent...but here is the rub. How do you get capable players to play with him? We are handicapped right now with Amare's contract. Tyson is proving to be a bad match in the frontline with Melo. You need a C that can actually hit an outside shot and rebounds at a high clip. How are you getting this? That is 3 contracts that will stop us from improving. I was actually wearing my Knick Colored glasses when that trio was introduced. I thought it was a great match. Dang...I was wrong. I like Melo's game minus the blackhole part, but if you can't get him the right pieces then he becomes an asset. That roster I suggested would actually get you to the playoffs.

Would you rather be knocked out of the 1st/2nd round next year with a geriatric group or would you rather be knocked out of the 1st/2nd round next year with a yoothier core with a mixture of established veterans that has a better future? I would take the latter.

With the Wizards, Raptors and Pistons looming as playoff threats the next few seasons, I doubt the playoffs would be a guarantee for your roster. The appreciation of young talent comes from what they can become and seldom on what they actually are. Those guys will likely have flashes of brilliance during the season but flashes of anything does not produce the effort needed to build a winning team. Its the main reason why seasoned coaches are reluctant to play young players. I for one, am tired of looking at marginal talents like Channing Frye, Trevor Ariza, Nate Robinson, Gallinari and Wilson Chandler, while listening to Knick fans trying to make an argument that these guys will be perennial all-star caliber players.

Trading away Carmelo is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Yes, we don't have very much flexibility for improving the team but that doesn't mean that we don't have options. I personally think that most of our guys have market value and that is most of the battle when it comes to making a good trade. We just need to be crafty, which Grunwald has proven to be. The one thing he should look to improve upon, however, is to groom young talent in the back-end of the roster like what Briggs has been suggesting. You never know when you might be able to stumble across a Marc Gasol, Nikola Pekovic, Marcin Gortat, etc.

Banking on young talent is tough and you really have to have some kind of skill in evaluating talent. You can trust the people that are paid to do this and make educated guesses. The roster I have suggested will actually have 2 number 4 picks in the last 2 years. Tristan is the #4 pick in 2011 and Waiters is the #4 pick last year. Plus you get the #3 pick this year. These are not marginal talents.

Trading Carmelo right now while his value is high is good business.

Problem contracts are Melo, Tyson, Camby, Kidd and Novak. They have value to get you players to run with Melo?

Trading Melo is not good business because you won't get equal value back, and can't replace him. And honestly there is no reason to discuss it because zero reason he gets traded. It makes no sense from a business standpoint either. Why trade him just to try to work your way back up to where we are now. A 53-win team and 2nd round exit is what we would get out of that team when they fully develop in 3-5 years as best case scenario. No point in that. We are a 2nd round team now with an out in 2 years. Continue to build off of our big pieces in Anthony and Shumpert. They are the reason the future is still bright. We have one of the best scorers in the league at 28 years old and one of the best future perimeter defenders at 23.

you would trade him to get past where you are now.. build a team that is built to contend for a title... that would be the idea...

Why do you think it is that simple? There are 14 other teams trying to do the same thing and are in the lottery. Do these Cavs players suddenly transform into all-stars as soon as we trade for them? Is it that simple to draft a starting PG for a championship team with the 24th pick? My point is that however you rebuild, your rebuilding effort has about a 5% chance of putting together a roster that is as good or better than what we have now. I will stick with this team and look for ways to improve rather than start from scratch. Again, the grass isn't always greener.

The scenario I presented will give us the #3 pick overall. You can get a lottery pick PG. CJ McCollum looks like a game changer type of PG in the Steph Curry mold.

These Cavs players? So just because they were with the Cavs you will ignore their body of work? What they were projected prior to their respective drafts?
Tristan Thompson has a chance to be a double double machine. This year he averaged 11.7 ppg and 9.4 rpg.
Dion Waiters averaged 14.7 ppg with only 2 TOpg in his rookie year.

To build a team you need to build from the ground up. Its like building a car. You don't use up all your money on the engine and then nickel and dime the rest of the parts hoping the engine alone will get you to the finish line. What happens when yours shocks, tires or any other part breaks? How about running out of gas? This happened to the Knicks this year. You think it will be better moving forward?

Will it get better? I'm not sure, but i think the odds of it getting better with this team are significantly higher then with a rebuilding team. Just ask the Bobcats, Wizards, Pistons, Kings, Twolves, Bucks, and many more who have been going thru the same rebuilding process for many, many years. It just isn't as simple as trade Melo. I get it Indiana, OKC, and Memphis have done a good job at it, but to get to that point takes a lot of luck beyond the control of talented management. And again, this is all a moot point because Melo is not getting traded. Focus your energy on coming up with ideas to build with him instead. He isn't getting traded, and it makes no sense to trade him and start from scratch in the land of the Wiz, Bobcats, and Pistons.

OR we can ask Denver, Houston, GSW, OKC, indy, and memphis, how it went for them as well....

The Nuggets traded for their core: Ty Lawson, Gallo, Chandler, Igoudala, McGee, Andre Miller, Corey Brewer
The Grizzlies traded/signed for their core: Zach Randolph, Marc Gasol, Tony Allen, Jerry Bayless, Ed Davis, Tayshaun Prince, Darrell Arthur
The Rockets traded/signed their core: James Harden, Omer Asik, Jeremy Lin
OKC...you got me there....same with the Pacers.

Well, the suggestion was for trading for young players with a good pedigree. Kinda like these teams you mentioned above. Plus a vet in Gasol that can be the anchor.

But then why does that have to come at the expense of our core? Why can't "young players with a good pedigree" be acquired to build/augument our core like how these teams did? I hate to beat a dead horse but the Spurs have built a multi-year champion with late first round and second round picks. Why can't we just follow that model here in NY, while signing players as necessary?

The point is that there is no other way. Outside of Melo....Who else do we have that will get you what we need?

Spurs? They had The Admiral. Then they had Tim Duncan. You can't really use that as a blueprint. They got these guys in the draft then built around them. Spurs had all their assets and used them accordingly. We have very limited resources. At least not until Tyson and Amare contract expires.

Robinson was only with the Spurs for one championship. The other three were won with Tony Parker and Ginobli playing the no.2 and no.3 roles next to Duncan. Parker was drafted 28th in his draft and Ginobli was taken with the last pick. I don't predict we'd be able to find guys like those in every draft but what has been a common trend are several above average role players being taken much later than they should've been.

In the 2006 draft, the Jazz took Paul Millsap with the 47th pick; the Celtics took Rondo with the 21st pick and the Grizzlies took Lowry with the 24th pick.

In the 2007 draft, the Lakers took Marc Gasol with the 48th pick; the Bucks took Ramon Sessions with the 56th pick; the Sonics/Thunder took Carl Landry with the 31st pick and Glen Davis with the 35th pick; The Piston took Afflao with the 24th pick; the Spurs with the 28th pick.

In the 2008 draft, the Blazers took Omir Asik with the 36th pick; the Spurs took Goran Dragic with the 45th pick; LAC took DeAndre Jordan with the 35th pick; MIN took Mario Chalmers with the 34th pick and Nikola Pekovic with the 31st pick.

...On and on and on, you find players late in the draft that become much more than serviceable role players. Why can't this be the avenue we use to upgrade our roster?

And for all the talk about us not having options from the time we got Melo, we sure as hell have managed to find players that had major impacts with us e.g. Jeremy Lin, Iman Shumpert, Steve Novak, JR Smith, Kenyon Martin, Raymond Felton, Pablo Prigioni, Chris Copeland, etc. Why should we expect this particular trend to stop?

sendclosk

NardDogNation wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:Need to blow this **** up. Unfortunately, Melo is the only desirable asset we have. No one will touch Amare without a sweetener or even Chandler. Shump can be viewed now as damaged goods. JR is JR. Felton is just not that good.

Melo needs a 2nd superstar to play with him to be successful.

I would send do this trade with Cleveland which would pair Melo with Kyrie Irving and they have their Bosh type player in Varejao which would play well with Melo.

Melo for Speights, Tristan Thompson, Dion Waiters, Alonzo Gee, CLE 1st round pick 3rd overall, both CLE 2nd round picks 31st and 33rd overall.

Why would CLE do this? This will leave CLE with a 1st round pick 19th overall so they still have some yoot coming in. They now will have a big 3 in Melo, Irving and Varejao that will actually work well together. They will also have some cap to sign a very good big in the mold of Al Jefferson or Paul Milsap. This roster will actually put them in the playoffs.

Why do we do this? We get their 1st round pick overall. We get 2 young lottery players in Waiters and Thompson. We get 2 early 2nd round picks. We get yoothier right away.

I would not re-sign anybody from our current roster except for Copeland. Including Pablo. I would let JR walk if he exercises his option.

I would then try to see if Lakers would take Amare and Shump for Gasol. Amare is more MDA's player and maybe they can have a Suns revival in LaLa land. Amare and Nash have the same length in contract. Gasol contract is 1 year shorter than Amare. Also, imagine Shump and the Black Mamba terrorizing the other teams backcourt with defense?

I would also try to get rid Camby. Maybe send him to ORL for TurkeyGlue's expiring contract. Camby and Felton for TurkeyGlue.

Now for the draft. I am not a college basketball guy so I will defer to BRIGGS scouting on this. I really like his reports and he has been more right than wrong in most cases.

For the 1st round pick 3rd overall, I am looking the PG spot or a big center. Looking at BRIGGS Top 10 NBA prospects, Alen Len and CJ McCollum caught my eye. Our need for a PG weighs heavily and If CJ's comparison is Steph Curry then I am picking CJ McCollum.

For our own 24th pick I am looking for a SF. GIANNIS ADETOKUNBO. This kid will be a sleeper.

For the 31st pick, 1st pick in the 2nd round, I will select the BRIGGS favorite. Nate Wolters. He is not projected in the 1st round so he might be available in the 2nd round.

For the 33rd pick, I am looking for a SG with very good shooting skills. Allen Crabbe. NBADraft.net compares him to Hubbert Davis.

Roster would look like this.

C- Chandler/Speights
PF- Gasol/Thompson
SF- Copeland/ADETOKUNBO/Novak/TurkeyGlue
SG- Waiters/Gee/Crabbe
PF- McCollum/Wolters/Kidd

You have 2 young guards in Waiters and McCollum that can shoot. SF will be by committee until Adetokunbo is ready. Chandler and Gasol will protect the paint.

Boom!

EDIT: Fire Woody and sign JVG.

Dude, no. Remember that the grass is always greener. We're no doubt a middling team but that is a better option than being perennially stuck in the lottery. All our contracts expire in 2015, so lets just sit tight, enjoy the show and begin making moves then if they are necessary. That free agent class has Kyrie Irving, Marc Gasol, Kevin Love and Paul George in it.

These moves will put us in play for the 2015 FA class.

I disagree. You attractive stars with other stars (see Wade attracting Bosh and LeBron). None of the guys you mentioned have star potential/or will be stars by 2015. The safer bet is to keep Melo, to at least facilitate a sign and trade for a member of the 2015 group I mentioned.

You have to keep Melo. In 2015 at the latest, give him another star to play with. Melo will be older and hopefully start transitioning into a 1B or #2 option with the addition of a true star player. Grass really isn't always greener. You can't just trade Melo. We saw what happened to OKC with Durant on his own too. Be patient and happy that we are a good, but not great team. Much better than being a lotto team. It is not that easy to rebuild. In 2015 if things are still the same we can sign another star to join Melo, Shumpert, and Felton. It should be a given around here that Melo isn't going anywhere, nor should he, so start focusing on how to improve with him in the plans.

I agree that Melo is top talent...but here is the rub. How do you get capable players to play with him? We are handicapped right now with Amare's contract. Tyson is proving to be a bad match in the frontline with Melo. You need a C that can actually hit an outside shot and rebounds at a high clip. How are you getting this? That is 3 contracts that will stop us from improving. I was actually wearing my Knick Colored glasses when that trio was introduced. I thought it was a great match. Dang...I was wrong. I like Melo's game minus the blackhole part, but if you can't get him the right pieces then he becomes an asset. That roster I suggested would actually get you to the playoffs.

Would you rather be knocked out of the 1st/2nd round next year with a geriatric group or would you rather be knocked out of the 1st/2nd round next year with a yoothier core with a mixture of established veterans that has a better future? I would take the latter.

With the Wizards, Raptors and Pistons looming as playoff threats the next few seasons, I doubt the playoffs would be a guarantee for your roster. The appreciation of young talent comes from what they can become and seldom on what they actually are. Those guys will likely have flashes of brilliance during the season but flashes of anything does not produce the effort needed to build a winning team. Its the main reason why seasoned coaches are reluctant to play young players. I for one, am tired of looking at marginal talents like Channing Frye, Trevor Ariza, Nate Robinson, Gallinari and Wilson Chandler, while listening to Knick fans trying to make an argument that these guys will be perennial all-star caliber players.

Trading away Carmelo is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Yes, we don't have very much flexibility for improving the team but that doesn't mean that we don't have options. I personally think that most of our guys have market value and that is most of the battle when it comes to making a good trade. We just need to be crafty, which Grunwald has proven to be. The one thing he should look to improve upon, however, is to groom young talent in the back-end of the roster like what Briggs has been suggesting. You never know when you might be able to stumble across a Marc Gasol, Nikola Pekovic, Marcin Gortat, etc.

Banking on young talent is tough and you really have to have some kind of skill in evaluating talent. You can trust the people that are paid to do this and make educated guesses. The roster I have suggested will actually have 2 number 4 picks in the last 2 years. Tristan is the #4 pick in 2011 and Waiters is the #4 pick last year. Plus you get the #3 pick this year. These are not marginal talents.

Trading Carmelo right now while his value is high is good business.

Problem contracts are Melo, Tyson, Camby, Kidd and Novak. They have value to get you players to run with Melo?

Trading Melo is not good business because you won't get equal value back, and can't replace him. And honestly there is no reason to discuss it because zero reason he gets traded. It makes no sense from a business standpoint either. Why trade him just to try to work your way back up to where we are now. A 53-win team and 2nd round exit is what we would get out of that team when they fully develop in 3-5 years as best case scenario. No point in that. We are a 2nd round team now with an out in 2 years. Continue to build off of our big pieces in Anthony and Shumpert. They are the reason the future is still bright. We have one of the best scorers in the league at 28 years old and one of the best future perimeter defenders at 23.

you would trade him to get past where you are now.. build a team that is built to contend for a title... that would be the idea...

Why do you think it is that simple? There are 14 other teams trying to do the same thing and are in the lottery. Do these Cavs players suddenly transform into all-stars as soon as we trade for them? Is it that simple to draft a starting PG for a championship team with the 24th pick? My point is that however you rebuild, your rebuilding effort has about a 5% chance of putting together a roster that is as good or better than what we have now. I will stick with this team and look for ways to improve rather than start from scratch. Again, the grass isn't always greener.

The scenario I presented will give us the #3 pick overall. You can get a lottery pick PG. CJ McCollum looks like a game changer type of PG in the Steph Curry mold.

These Cavs players? So just because they were with the Cavs you will ignore their body of work? What they were projected prior to their respective drafts?
Tristan Thompson has a chance to be a double double machine. This year he averaged 11.7 ppg and 9.4 rpg.
Dion Waiters averaged 14.7 ppg with only 2 TOpg in his rookie year.

To build a team you need to build from the ground up. Its like building a car. You don't use up all your money on the engine and then nickel and dime the rest of the parts hoping the engine alone will get you to the finish line. What happens when yours shocks, tires or any other part breaks? How about running out of gas? This happened to the Knicks this year. You think it will be better moving forward?

Will it get better? I'm not sure, but i think the odds of it getting better with this team are significantly higher then with a rebuilding team. Just ask the Bobcats, Wizards, Pistons, Kings, Twolves, Bucks, and many more who have been going thru the same rebuilding process for many, many years. It just isn't as simple as trade Melo. I get it Indiana, OKC, and Memphis have done a good job at it, but to get to that point takes a lot of luck beyond the control of talented management. And again, this is all a moot point because Melo is not getting traded. Focus your energy on coming up with ideas to build with him instead. He isn't getting traded, and it makes no sense to trade him and start from scratch in the land of the Wiz, Bobcats, and Pistons.

OR we can ask Denver, Houston, GSW, OKC, indy, and memphis, how it went for them as well....

The Nuggets traded for their core: Ty Lawson, Gallo, Chandler, Igoudala, McGee, Andre Miller, Corey Brewer
The Grizzlies traded/signed for their core: Zach Randolph, Marc Gasol, Tony Allen, Jerry Bayless, Ed Davis, Tayshaun Prince, Darrell Arthur
The Rockets traded/signed their core: James Harden, Omer Asik, Jeremy Lin
OKC...you got me there....same with the Pacers.

Well, the suggestion was for trading for young players with a good pedigree. Kinda like these teams you mentioned above. Plus a vet in Gasol that can be the anchor.

But then why does that have to come at the expense of our core? Why can't "young players with a good pedigree" be acquired to build/augument our core like how these teams did? I hate to beat a dead horse but the Spurs have built a multi-year champion with late first round and second round picks. Why can't we just follow that model here in NY, while signing players as necessary?

The point is that there is no other way. Outside of Melo....Who else do we have that will get you what we need?

Spurs? They had The Admiral. Then they had Tim Duncan. You can't really use that as a blueprint. They got these guys in the draft then built around them. Spurs had all their assets and used them accordingly. We have very limited resources. At least not until Tyson and Amare contract expires.

Robinson was only with the Spurs for one championship. The other three were won with Tony Parker and Ginobli playing the no.2 and no.3 roles next to Duncan. Parker was drafted 28th in his draft and Ginobli was taken with the last pick. I don't predict we'd be able to find guys like those in every draft but what has been a common trend are several above average role players being taken much later than they should've been.

In the 2006 draft, the Jazz took Paul Millsap with the 47th pick; the Celtics took Rondo with the 21st pick and the Grizzlies took Lowry with the 24th pick.

In the 2007 draft, the Lakers took Marc Gasol with the 48th pick; the Bucks took Ramon Sessions with the 56th pick; the Sonics/Thunder took Carl Landry with the 31st pick and Glen Davis with the 35th pick; The Piston took Afflao with the 24th pick; the Spurs with the 28th pick.

In the 2008 draft, the Blazers took Omir Asik with the 36th pick; the Spurs took Goran Dragic with the 45th pick; LAC took DeAndre Jordan with the 35th pick; MIN took Mario Chalmers with the 34th pick and Nikola Pekovic with the 31st pick.

...On and on and on, you find players late in the draft that become much more than serviceable role players. Why can't this be the avenue we use to upgrade our roster?

And for all the talk about us not having options from the time we got Melo, we sure as hell have managed to find players that had major impacts with us e.g. Jeremy Lin, Iman Shumpert, Steve Novak, JR Smith, Kenyon Martin, Raymond Felton, Pablo Prigioni, Chris Copeland, etc. Why should we expect this particular trend to stop?

sendclosk

?

this is an example of a sendclosk - moreso on version 1.0 of this board - but still a sendclosk

Knixkik wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:Need to blow this **** up. Unfortunately, Melo is the only desirable asset we have. No one will touch Amare without a sweetener or even Chandler. Shump can be viewed now as damaged goods. JR is JR. Felton is just not that good.

Melo needs a 2nd superstar to play with him to be successful.

I would send do this trade with Cleveland which would pair Melo with Kyrie Irving and they have their Bosh type player in Varejao which would play well with Melo.

Melo for Speights, Tristan Thompson, Dion Waiters, Alonzo Gee, CLE 1st round pick 3rd overall, both CLE 2nd round picks 31st and 33rd overall.

Why would CLE do this? This will leave CLE with a 1st round pick 19th overall so they still have some yoot coming in. They now will have a big 3 in Melo, Irving and Varejao that will actually work well together. They will also have some cap to sign a very good big in the mold of Al Jefferson or Paul Milsap. This roster will actually put them in the playoffs.

Why do we do this? We get their 1st round pick overall. We get 2 young lottery players in Waiters and Thompson. We get 2 early 2nd round picks. We get yoothier right away.

I would not re-sign anybody from our current roster except for Copeland. Including Pablo. I would let JR walk if he exercises his option.

I would then try to see if Lakers would take Amare and Shump for Gasol. Amare is more MDA's player and maybe they can have a Suns revival in LaLa land. Amare and Nash have the same length in contract. Gasol contract is 1 year shorter than Amare. Also, imagine Shump and the Black Mamba terrorizing the other teams backcourt with defense?

I would also try to get rid Camby. Maybe send him to ORL for TurkeyGlue's expiring contract. Camby and Felton for TurkeyGlue.

Now for the draft. I am not a college basketball guy so I will defer to BRIGGS scouting on this. I really like his reports and he has been more right than wrong in most cases.

For the 1st round pick 3rd overall, I am looking the PG spot or a big center. Looking at BRIGGS Top 10 NBA prospects, Alen Len and CJ McCollum caught my eye. Our need for a PG weighs heavily and If CJ's comparison is Steph Curry then I am picking CJ McCollum.

For our own 24th pick I am looking for a SF. GIANNIS ADETOKUNBO. This kid will be a sleeper.

For the 31st pick, 1st pick in the 2nd round, I will select the BRIGGS favorite. Nate Wolters. He is not projected in the 1st round so he might be available in the 2nd round.

For the 33rd pick, I am looking for a SG with very good shooting skills. Allen Crabbe. NBADraft.net compares him to Hubbert Davis.

Roster would look like this.

C- Chandler/Speights
PF- Gasol/Thompson
SF- Copeland/ADETOKUNBO/Novak/TurkeyGlue
SG- Waiters/Gee/Crabbe
PF- McCollum/Wolters/Kidd

You have 2 young guards in Waiters and McCollum that can shoot. SF will be by committee until Adetokunbo is ready. Chandler and Gasol will protect the paint.

Boom!

EDIT: Fire Woody and sign JVG.

Dude, no. Remember that the grass is always greener. We're no doubt a middling team but that is a better option than being perennially stuck in the lottery. All our contracts expire in 2015, so lets just sit tight, enjoy the show and begin making moves then if they are necessary. That free agent class has Kyrie Irving, Marc Gasol, Kevin Love and Paul George in it.

These moves will put us in play for the 2015 FA class.

I disagree. You attractive stars with other stars (see Wade attracting Bosh and LeBron). None of the guys you mentioned have star potential/or will be stars by 2015. The safer bet is to keep Melo, to at least facilitate a sign and trade for a member of the 2015 group I mentioned.

You have to keep Melo. In 2015 at the latest, give him another star to play with. Melo will be older and hopefully start transitioning into a 1B or #2 option with the addition of a true star player. Grass really isn't always greener. You can't just trade Melo. We saw what happened to OKC with Durant on his own too. Be patient and happy that we are a good, but not great team. Much better than being a lotto team. It is not that easy to rebuild. In 2015 if things are still the same we can sign another star to join Melo, Shumpert, and Felton. It should be a given around here that Melo isn't going anywhere, nor should he, so start focusing on how to improve with him in the plans.

I agree that Melo is top talent...but here is the rub. How do you get capable players to play with him? We are handicapped right now with Amare's contract. Tyson is proving to be a bad match in the frontline with Melo. You need a C that can actually hit an outside shot and rebounds at a high clip. How are you getting this? That is 3 contracts that will stop us from improving. I was actually wearing my Knick Colored glasses when that trio was introduced. I thought it was a great match. Dang...I was wrong. I like Melo's game minus the blackhole part, but if you can't get him the right pieces then he becomes an asset. That roster I suggested would actually get you to the playoffs.

Would you rather be knocked out of the 1st/2nd round next year with a geriatric group or would you rather be knocked out of the 1st/2nd round next year with a yoothier core with a mixture of established veterans that has a better future? I would take the latter.

With the Wizards, Raptors and Pistons looming as playoff threats the next few seasons, I doubt the playoffs would be a guarantee for your roster. The appreciation of young talent comes from what they can become and seldom on what they actually are. Those guys will likely have flashes of brilliance during the season but flashes of anything does not produce the effort needed to build a winning team. Its the main reason why seasoned coaches are reluctant to play young players. I for one, am tired of looking at marginal talents like Channing Frye, Trevor Ariza, Nate Robinson, Gallinari and Wilson Chandler, while listening to Knick fans trying to make an argument that these guys will be perennial all-star caliber players.

Trading away Carmelo is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Yes, we don't have very much flexibility for improving the team but that doesn't mean that we don't have options. I personally think that most of our guys have market value and that is most of the battle when it comes to making a good trade. We just need to be crafty, which Grunwald has proven to be. The one thing he should look to improve upon, however, is to groom young talent in the back-end of the roster like what Briggs has been suggesting. You never know when you might be able to stumble across a Marc Gasol, Nikola Pekovic, Marcin Gortat, etc.

Banking on young talent is tough and you really have to have some kind of skill in evaluating talent. You can trust the people that are paid to do this and make educated guesses. The roster I have suggested will actually have 2 number 4 picks in the last 2 years. Tristan is the #4 pick in 2011 and Waiters is the #4 pick last year. Plus you get the #3 pick this year. These are not marginal talents.

Trading Carmelo right now while his value is high is good business.

Problem contracts are Melo, Tyson, Camby, Kidd and Novak. They have value to get you players to run with Melo?

Trading Melo is not good business because you won't get equal value back, and can't replace him. And honestly there is no reason to discuss it because zero reason he gets traded. It makes no sense from a business standpoint either. Why trade him just to try to work your way back up to where we are now. A 53-win team and 2nd round exit is what we would get out of that team when they fully develop in 3-5 years as best case scenario. No point in that. We are a 2nd round team now with an out in 2 years. Continue to build off of our big pieces in Anthony and Shumpert. They are the reason the future is still bright. We have one of the best scorers in the league at 28 years old and one of the best future perimeter defenders at 23.

you would trade him to get past where you are now.. build a team that is built to contend for a title... that would be the idea...

Why do you think it is that simple? There are 14 other teams trying to do the same thing and are in the lottery. Do these Cavs players suddenly transform into all-stars as soon as we trade for them? Is it that simple to draft a starting PG for a championship team with the 24th pick? My point is that however you rebuild, your rebuilding effort has about a 5% chance of putting together a roster that is as good or better than what we have now. I will stick with this team and look for ways to improve rather than start from scratch. Again, the grass isn't always greener.

The scenario I presented will give us the #3 pick overall. You can get a lottery pick PG. CJ McCollum looks like a game changer type of PG in the Steph Curry mold.

These Cavs players? So just because they were with the Cavs you will ignore their body of work? What they were projected prior to their respective drafts?
Tristan Thompson has a chance to be a double double machine. This year he averaged 11.7 ppg and 9.4 rpg.
Dion Waiters averaged 14.7 ppg with only 2 TOpg in his rookie year.

To build a team you need to build from the ground up. Its like building a car. You don't use up all your money on the engine and then nickel and dime the rest of the parts hoping the engine alone will get you to the finish line. What happens when yours shocks, tires or any other part breaks? How about running out of gas? This happened to the Knicks this year. You think it will be better moving forward?

Will it get better? I'm not sure, but i think the odds of it getting better with this team are significantly higher then with a rebuilding team. Just ask the Bobcats, Wizards, Pistons, Kings, Twolves, Bucks, and many more who have been going thru the same rebuilding process for many, many years. It just isn't as simple as trade Melo. I get it Indiana, OKC, and Memphis have done a good job at it, but to get to that point takes a lot of luck beyond the control of talented management. And again, this is all a moot point because Melo is not getting traded. Focus your energy on coming up with ideas to build with him instead. He isn't getting traded, and it makes no sense to trade him and start from scratch in the land of the Wiz, Bobcats, and Pistons.

OR we can ask Denver, Houston, GSW, OKC, indy, and memphis, how it went for them as well....

The Nuggets traded for their core: Ty Lawson, Gallo, Chandler, Igoudala, McGee, Andre Miller, Corey Brewer
The Grizzlies traded/signed for their core: Zach Randolph, Marc Gasol, Tony Allen, Jerry Bayless, Ed Davis, Tayshaun Prince, Darrell Arthur
The Rockets traded/signed their core: James Harden, Omer Asik, Jeremy Lin
OKC...you got me there....same with the Pacers.

Well, the suggestion was for trading for young players with a good pedigree. Kinda like these teams you mentioned above. Plus a vet in Gasol that can be the anchor.

But then why does that have to come at the expense of our core? Why can't "young players with a good pedigree" be acquired to build/augument our core like how these teams did? I hate to beat a dead horse but the Spurs have built a multi-year champion with late first round and second round picks. Why can't we just follow that model here in NY, while signing players as necessary?

The point is that there is no other way. Outside of Melo....Who else do we have that will get you what we need?

Spurs? They had The Admiral. Then they had Tim Duncan. You can't really use that as a blueprint. They got these guys in the draft then built around them. Spurs had all their assets and used them accordingly. We have very limited resources. At least not until Tyson and Amare contract expires.

Robinson was only with the Spurs for one championship. The other three were won with Tony Parker and Ginobli playing the no.2 and no.3 roles next to Duncan. Parker was drafted 28th in his draft and Ginobli was taken with the last pick. I don't predict we'd be able to find guys like those in every draft but what has been a common trend are several above average role players being taken much later than they should've been.

In the 2006 draft, the Jazz took Paul Millsap with the 47th pick; the Celtics took Rondo with the 21st pick and the Grizzlies took Lowry with the 24th pick.

In the 2007 draft, the Lakers took Marc Gasol with the 48th pick; the Bucks took Ramon Sessions with the 56th pick; the Sonics/Thunder took Carl Landry with the 31st pick and Glen Davis with the 35th pick; The Piston took Afflao with the 24th pick; the Spurs with the 28th pick.

In the 2008 draft, the Blazers took Omir Asik with the 36th pick; the Spurs took Goran Dragic with the 45th pick; LAC took DeAndre Jordan with the 35th pick; MIN took Mario Chalmers with the 34th pick and Nikola Pekovic with the 31st pick.

...On and on and on, you find players late in the draft that become much more than serviceable role players. Why can't this be the avenue we use to upgrade our roster?

And for all the talk about us not having options from the time we got Melo, we sure as hell have managed to find players that had major impacts with us e.g. Jeremy Lin, Iman Shumpert, Steve Novak, JR Smith, Kenyon Martin, Raymond Felton, Pablo Prigioni, Chris Copeland, etc. Why should we expect this particular trend to stop?

This is my preference as well. To upgrade by being resourceful. We need to get our 1st round pick right and find some hidden gems this summer and we will come back a better team. Simple as that. No point in panic mode.

Was he trying to make the point about the draft or acquiring young talent in trades?

Knixkik wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:Need to blow this **** up. Unfortunately, Melo is the only desirable asset we have. No one will touch Amare without a sweetener or even Chandler. Shump can be viewed now as damaged goods. JR is JR. Felton is just not that good.

Melo needs a 2nd superstar to play with him to be successful.

I would send do this trade with Cleveland which would pair Melo with Kyrie Irving and they have their Bosh type player in Varejao which would play well with Melo.

Melo for Speights, Tristan Thompson, Dion Waiters, Alonzo Gee, CLE 1st round pick 3rd overall, both CLE 2nd round picks 31st and 33rd overall.

Why would CLE do this? This will leave CLE with a 1st round pick 19th overall so they still have some yoot coming in. They now will have a big 3 in Melo, Irving and Varejao that will actually work well together. They will also have some cap to sign a very good big in the mold of Al Jefferson or Paul Milsap. This roster will actually put them in the playoffs.

Why do we do this? We get their 1st round pick overall. We get 2 young lottery players in Waiters and Thompson. We get 2 early 2nd round picks. We get yoothier right away.

I would not re-sign anybody from our current roster except for Copeland. Including Pablo. I would let JR walk if he exercises his option.

I would then try to see if Lakers would take Amare and Shump for Gasol. Amare is more MDA's player and maybe they can have a Suns revival in LaLa land. Amare and Nash have the same length in contract. Gasol contract is 1 year shorter than Amare. Also, imagine Shump and the Black Mamba terrorizing the other teams backcourt with defense?

I would also try to get rid Camby. Maybe send him to ORL for TurkeyGlue's expiring contract. Camby and Felton for TurkeyGlue.

Now for the draft. I am not a college basketball guy so I will defer to BRIGGS scouting on this. I really like his reports and he has been more right than wrong in most cases.

For the 1st round pick 3rd overall, I am looking the PG spot or a big center. Looking at BRIGGS Top 10 NBA prospects, Alen Len and CJ McCollum caught my eye. Our need for a PG weighs heavily and If CJ's comparison is Steph Curry then I am picking CJ McCollum.

For our own 24th pick I am looking for a SF. GIANNIS ADETOKUNBO. This kid will be a sleeper.

For the 31st pick, 1st pick in the 2nd round, I will select the BRIGGS favorite. Nate Wolters. He is not projected in the 1st round so he might be available in the 2nd round.

For the 33rd pick, I am looking for a SG with very good shooting skills. Allen Crabbe. NBADraft.net compares him to Hubbert Davis.

Roster would look like this.

C- Chandler/Speights
PF- Gasol/Thompson
SF- Copeland/ADETOKUNBO/Novak/TurkeyGlue
SG- Waiters/Gee/Crabbe
PF- McCollum/Wolters/Kidd

You have 2 young guards in Waiters and McCollum that can shoot. SF will be by committee until Adetokunbo is ready. Chandler and Gasol will protect the paint.

Boom!

EDIT: Fire Woody and sign JVG.

Dude, no. Remember that the grass is always greener. We're no doubt a middling team but that is a better option than being perennially stuck in the lottery. All our contracts expire in 2015, so lets just sit tight, enjoy the show and begin making moves then if they are necessary. That free agent class has Kyrie Irving, Marc Gasol, Kevin Love and Paul George in it.

These moves will put us in play for the 2015 FA class.

I disagree. You attractive stars with other stars (see Wade attracting Bosh and LeBron). None of the guys you mentioned have star potential/or will be stars by 2015. The safer bet is to keep Melo, to at least facilitate a sign and trade for a member of the 2015 group I mentioned.

You have to keep Melo. In 2015 at the latest, give him another star to play with. Melo will be older and hopefully start transitioning into a 1B or #2 option with the addition of a true star player. Grass really isn't always greener. You can't just trade Melo. We saw what happened to OKC with Durant on his own too. Be patient and happy that we are a good, but not great team. Much better than being a lotto team. It is not that easy to rebuild. In 2015 if things are still the same we can sign another star to join Melo, Shumpert, and Felton. It should be a given around here that Melo isn't going anywhere, nor should he, so start focusing on how to improve with him in the plans.

I agree that Melo is top talent...but here is the rub. How do you get capable players to play with him? We are handicapped right now with Amare's contract. Tyson is proving to be a bad match in the frontline with Melo. You need a C that can actually hit an outside shot and rebounds at a high clip. How are you getting this? That is 3 contracts that will stop us from improving. I was actually wearing my Knick Colored glasses when that trio was introduced. I thought it was a great match. Dang...I was wrong. I like Melo's game minus the blackhole part, but if you can't get him the right pieces then he becomes an asset. That roster I suggested would actually get you to the playoffs.

Would you rather be knocked out of the 1st/2nd round next year with a geriatric group or would you rather be knocked out of the 1st/2nd round next year with a yoothier core with a mixture of established veterans that has a better future? I would take the latter.

With the Wizards, Raptors and Pistons looming as playoff threats the next few seasons, I doubt the playoffs would be a guarantee for your roster. The appreciation of young talent comes from what they can become and seldom on what they actually are. Those guys will likely have flashes of brilliance during the season but flashes of anything does not produce the effort needed to build a winning team. Its the main reason why seasoned coaches are reluctant to play young players. I for one, am tired of looking at marginal talents like Channing Frye, Trevor Ariza, Nate Robinson, Gallinari and Wilson Chandler, while listening to Knick fans trying to make an argument that these guys will be perennial all-star caliber players.

Trading away Carmelo is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Yes, we don't have very much flexibility for improving the team but that doesn't mean that we don't have options. I personally think that most of our guys have market value and that is most of the battle when it comes to making a good trade. We just need to be crafty, which Grunwald has proven to be. The one thing he should look to improve upon, however, is to groom young talent in the back-end of the roster like what Briggs has been suggesting. You never know when you might be able to stumble across a Marc Gasol, Nikola Pekovic, Marcin Gortat, etc.

Banking on young talent is tough and you really have to have some kind of skill in evaluating talent. You can trust the people that are paid to do this and make educated guesses. The roster I have suggested will actually have 2 number 4 picks in the last 2 years. Tristan is the #4 pick in 2011 and Waiters is the #4 pick last year. Plus you get the #3 pick this year. These are not marginal talents.

Trading Carmelo right now while his value is high is good business.

Problem contracts are Melo, Tyson, Camby, Kidd and Novak. They have value to get you players to run with Melo?

Trading Melo is not good business because you won't get equal value back, and can't replace him. And honestly there is no reason to discuss it because zero reason he gets traded. It makes no sense from a business standpoint either. Why trade him just to try to work your way back up to where we are now. A 53-win team and 2nd round exit is what we would get out of that team when they fully develop in 3-5 years as best case scenario. No point in that. We are a 2nd round team now with an out in 2 years. Continue to build off of our big pieces in Anthony and Shumpert. They are the reason the future is still bright. We have one of the best scorers in the league at 28 years old and one of the best future perimeter defenders at 23.

you would trade him to get past where you are now.. build a team that is built to contend for a title... that would be the idea...

Why do you think it is that simple? There are 14 other teams trying to do the same thing and are in the lottery. Do these Cavs players suddenly transform into all-stars as soon as we trade for them? Is it that simple to draft a starting PG for a championship team with the 24th pick? My point is that however you rebuild, your rebuilding effort has about a 5% chance of putting together a roster that is as good or better than what we have now. I will stick with this team and look for ways to improve rather than start from scratch. Again, the grass isn't always greener.

The scenario I presented will give us the #3 pick overall. You can get a lottery pick PG. CJ McCollum looks like a game changer type of PG in the Steph Curry mold.

These Cavs players? So just because they were with the Cavs you will ignore their body of work? What they were projected prior to their respective drafts?
Tristan Thompson has a chance to be a double double machine. This year he averaged 11.7 ppg and 9.4 rpg.
Dion Waiters averaged 14.7 ppg with only 2 TOpg in his rookie year.

To build a team you need to build from the ground up. Its like building a car. You don't use up all your money on the engine and then nickel and dime the rest of the parts hoping the engine alone will get you to the finish line. What happens when yours shocks, tires or any other part breaks? How about running out of gas? This happened to the Knicks this year. You think it will be better moving forward?

Will it get better? I'm not sure, but i think the odds of it getting better with this team are significantly higher then with a rebuilding team. Just ask the Bobcats, Wizards, Pistons, Kings, Twolves, Bucks, and many more who have been going thru the same rebuilding process for many, many years. It just isn't as simple as trade Melo. I get it Indiana, OKC, and Memphis have done a good job at it, but to get to that point takes a lot of luck beyond the control of talented management. And again, this is all a moot point because Melo is not getting traded. Focus your energy on coming up with ideas to build with him instead. He isn't getting traded, and it makes no sense to trade him and start from scratch in the land of the Wiz, Bobcats, and Pistons.

OR we can ask Denver, Houston, GSW, OKC, indy, and memphis, how it went for them as well....

The Nuggets traded for their core: Ty Lawson, Gallo, Chandler, Igoudala, McGee, Andre Miller, Corey Brewer
The Grizzlies traded/signed for their core: Zach Randolph, Marc Gasol, Tony Allen, Jerry Bayless, Ed Davis, Tayshaun Prince, Darrell Arthur
The Rockets traded/signed their core: James Harden, Omer Asik, Jeremy Lin
OKC...you got me there....same with the Pacers.

Well, the suggestion was for trading for young players with a good pedigree. Kinda like these teams you mentioned above. Plus a vet in Gasol that can be the anchor.

But then why does that have to come at the expense of our core? Why can't "young players with a good pedigree" be acquired to build/augument our core like how these teams did? I hate to beat a dead horse but the Spurs have built a multi-year champion with late first round and second round picks. Why can't we just follow that model here in NY, while signing players as necessary?

The point is that there is no other way. Outside of Melo....Who else do we have that will get you what we need?

Spurs? They had The Admiral. Then they had Tim Duncan. You can't really use that as a blueprint. They got these guys in the draft then built around them. Spurs had all their assets and used them accordingly. We have very limited resources. At least not until Tyson and Amare contract expires.

Robinson was only with the Spurs for one championship. The other three were won with Tony Parker and Ginobli playing the no.2 and no.3 roles next to Duncan. Parker was drafted 28th in his draft and Ginobli was taken with the last pick. I don't predict we'd be able to find guys like those in every draft but what has been a common trend are several above average role players being taken much later than they should've been.

In the 2006 draft, the Jazz took Paul Millsap with the 47th pick; the Celtics took Rondo with the 21st pick and the Grizzlies took Lowry with the 24th pick.

In the 2007 draft, the Lakers took Marc Gasol with the 48th pick; the Bucks took Ramon Sessions with the 56th pick; the Sonics/Thunder took Carl Landry with the 31st pick and Glen Davis with the 35th pick; The Piston took Afflao with the 24th pick; the Spurs with the 28th pick.

In the 2008 draft, the Blazers took Omir Asik with the 36th pick; the Spurs took Goran Dragic with the 45th pick; LAC took DeAndre Jordan with the 35th pick; MIN took Mario Chalmers with the 34th pick and Nikola Pekovic with the 31st pick.

...On and on and on, you find players late in the draft that become much more than serviceable role players. Why can't this be the avenue we use to upgrade our roster?

And for all the talk about us not having options from the time we got Melo, we sure as hell have managed to find players that had major impacts with us e.g. Jeremy Lin, Iman Shumpert, Steve Novak, JR Smith, Kenyon Martin, Raymond Felton, Pablo Prigioni, Chris Copeland, etc. Why should we expect this particular trend to stop?

This is my preference as well. To upgrade by being resourceful. We need to get our 1st round pick right and find some hidden gems this summer and we will come back a better team. Simple as that. No point in panic mode.

Agreed; I think we've both been getting at this point for a while. I just hope Dolan recognizes the importance of the draft but I've never gotten that impression from him or the men he's hired. Didn't he fire most of our scouts a year or two ago? Didn't we let Kevin Wilson (the European head scout) go too?

Knixkik wrote:I think he let some of those guys go for good reason. Look at the success we have had finding nice overseas guys and bargain bin guys the past 2 years. Hopefully we are now taking the draft more serious and can find a high upside player with the 24th pick, plus more Copeland/Prigioni-types this summer. I think Shumpert and Copeland offer a great start with younger role players who can play with Melo and improve each season. They are shooter and/or defender types. We must continue to add these types of players and get our picks right.

That's actually a good point. Whatever they did though, it seems to be working and I think they should expand it. With the amount of money Dolan is willing to throw around, our scouting department should be the Spurs of this next generation.