GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

tkf wrote:

NUPE wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:
Yeah I think Kobe was the first guy to start the Hakeem Olajuwon offseason thing.

I think it's fair to compare Kobe and Melo in that:

- ridiculous talent, can shoot and score down low too (obviously Kobe''s post game is more advanced but Melo is physically superior down low)

- they are often their own worst enemies. could probbaby use less 3s.
- they both could be elite defenders but take possessions off

Kobe is better at:

Long 2s: 36.9% Melo vs 41.4% Kobe. It's still dumb to me that Kobe takes more than 11 long 2s a game when he has frikkin Pau and Bynum but that's the Mamba for ya.

Both Kobe and Melo take way too many contested jumpers with defenders right on top of them. They need to drive more or post more. The only time a contested jumper is reasonable is when the defender is backed off you and giving it to you.

Melo actually has a great jump shot, however, the averages and numbers dont reveal this because he takes way too many contested jumpers. A player like Durant shoots far less contested jumpers which is why his fg% is so robust. I guess it helps to have Harden and Westbrook getting you several uncontested looks per game.

it also helps when you play less iso ball and work off the ball to get open looks.. at which point you won't need a westbrook or harden.. Toney douglas could make that kind of pass..

working off the ball is a lost art in the NBA. I think other than specialists like Novak, marquee players who work off the ball are few and far between. You don't get props in today's basketball culture by being nasty coming off curls. Just for fun:

Allen Houston
Reggie Miller
Ray Allen
Rip Hamilton
Kobe Bryant (yes he can!)
Kevin Martin
Manu?

Everyone else wants to be MJ, AI, etc.

Most players that work off the ball tend to lack post games and/or the ability to consistently create good shots off the dribble. I would not say that Bryant works off the ball although he has the skill-set to. Manu, not really. The others definitely although Martin tends to drive a good bit and get to the foul line.

As for Melo, he has the mid-range game to run off screens but its not something that I'd want him doing consistently. Perhaps through the first half of games. It's been shown that he is highly efficient posting from the foul line down so that is where he should be most often along with Amar'e. Generally, I think an offense should be designed to highlight a players strengths.

NUPE wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

tkf wrote:

NUPE wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:
Yeah I think Kobe was the first guy to start the Hakeem Olajuwon offseason thing.

I think it's fair to compare Kobe and Melo in that:

- ridiculous talent, can shoot and score down low too (obviously Kobe''s post game is more advanced but Melo is physically superior down low)

- they are often their own worst enemies. could probbaby use less 3s.
- they both could be elite defenders but take possessions off

Kobe is better at:

Long 2s: 36.9% Melo vs 41.4% Kobe. It's still dumb to me that Kobe takes more than 11 long 2s a game when he has frikkin Pau and Bynum but that's the Mamba for ya.

Both Kobe and Melo take way too many contested jumpers with defenders right on top of them. They need to drive more or post more. The only time a contested jumper is reasonable is when the defender is backed off you and giving it to you.

Melo actually has a great jump shot, however, the averages and numbers dont reveal this because he takes way too many contested jumpers. A player like Durant shoots far less contested jumpers which is why his fg% is so robust. I guess it helps to have Harden and Westbrook getting you several uncontested looks per game.

it also helps when you play less iso ball and work off the ball to get open looks.. at which point you won't need a westbrook or harden.. Toney douglas could make that kind of pass..

working off the ball is a lost art in the NBA. I think other than specialists like Novak, marquee players who work off the ball are few and far between. You don't get props in today's basketball culture by being nasty coming off curls. Just for fun:

Allen Houston
Reggie Miller
Ray Allen
Rip Hamilton
Kobe Bryant (yes he can!)
Kevin Martin
Manu?

Everyone else wants to be MJ, AI, etc.

Most players that work off the ball tend to lack post games and/or the ability to consistently create good shots off the dribble. I would not say that Bryant works off the ball although he has the skill-set to. Manu, not really. The others definitely although Martin tends to drive a good bit and get to the foul line.

As for Melo, he has the mid-range game to run off screens but its not something that I'd want him doing consistently. Perhaps through the first half of games. It's been shown that he is highly efficient posting from the foul line down so that is where he should be most often along with Amar'e. Generally, I think an offense should be designed to highlight a players strengths.

WHICH PLAYER? do you think the iso melo offense is playing into amare's strengths? or does he not count?

Kris Humphries 40.2%

Carmelo Anthony 36.9% (about 8 a game)

Kobe 41.4% (more than 11 a game yikes)

Dirk 50.3%

Wade 42.3

Westbrook 40.9

Durant 46.4

Melo From 2007 to now

10-15 feet: 36.38%
16-23 feet 40%

Amare

10-15 feet 39.76%
16-23 feet 43.83%

Dirk
10-15 feet 46.36%
16-23 feet 49%

Pierce
10-15 43.3
16-23 39.33

Kobe
10-15 46.71
16-23 40.33

Wade
10-15 39.55
16-23 37.83

Durant
10-15 40.48
16-23 41

dk7th wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

NUPE wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

tkf wrote:

NUPE wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:
Yeah I think Kobe was the first guy to start the Hakeem Olajuwon offseason thing.

I think it's fair to compare Kobe and Melo in that:

- ridiculous talent, can shoot and score down low too (obviously Kobe''s post game is more advanced but Melo is physically superior down low)

- they are often their own worst enemies. could probbaby use less 3s.
- they both could be elite defenders but take possessions off

Kobe is better at:

Long 2s: 36.9% Melo vs 41.4% Kobe. It's still dumb to me that Kobe takes more than 11 long 2s a game when he has frikkin Pau and Bynum but that's the Mamba for ya.

Both Kobe and Melo take way too many contested jumpers with defenders right on top of them. They need to drive more or post more. The only time a contested jumper is reasonable is when the defender is backed off you and giving it to you.

Melo actually has a great jump shot, however, the averages and numbers dont reveal this because he takes way too many contested jumpers. A player like Durant shoots far less contested jumpers which is why his fg% is so robust. I guess it helps to have Harden and Westbrook getting you several uncontested looks per game.

it also helps when you play less iso ball and work off the ball to get open looks.. at which point you won't need a westbrook or harden.. Toney douglas could make that kind of pass..

working off the ball is a lost art in the NBA. I think other than specialists like Novak, marquee players who work off the ball are few and far between. You don't get props in today's basketball culture by being nasty coming off curls. Just for fun:

Allen Houston
Reggie Miller
Ray Allen
Rip Hamilton
Kobe Bryant (yes he can!)
Kevin Martin
Manu?

Everyone else wants to be MJ, AI, etc.

Most players that work off the ball tend to lack post games and/or the ability to consistently create good shots off the dribble. I would not say that Bryant works off the ball although he has the skill-set to. Manu, not really. The others definitely although Martin tends to drive a good bit and get to the foul line.

As for Melo, he has the mid-range game to run off screens but its not something that I'd want him doing consistently. Perhaps through the first half of games. It's been shown that he is highly efficient posting from the foul line down so that is where he should be most often along with Amar'e. Generally, I think an offense should be designed to highlight a players strengths.

that's kind of the big issue is that up to this point in his career that's the exact area that Amare's done most of his damage in.

all the other crap that went on with last season (lockout, brother dying, coming back from back injury, MDA getting canned) etc. did not exactly contribute to Amare and Melo figuring things out.

This year they have training camp. Olajuwon tutored Amare and then came in an had time with all the bigs. There was some discussion I remember in an article of teaching them to work together.

Given that we are where we are, you have to think that two great players and a coach that are all on the same page will figure out a way to make it work.

If not hopefully Amare at least looks like the old Amare so we can maybe trade him for a PG or someone else to complement Melo and Tyson. Interesting thing to think about. Assuming our roster over the next 3 years have Melo playing either SF/PF and Chandler at C set in stone.

If Amare looks great, what viable player (contracts being considered) could be brought in that would fit Melo/Chandler better than Amare?

you don't want melo running off screens that much if only because he is not particularly agile and has never been in supreme condition. but make no mistake he should be running off screens several times a game on principle, that principle being unpredictability. and there is zero question in my mind that this dude should be involved in pick and rolls more than several times a game. it is asinine that woodson had him go iso instead of having him work a pick and roll... unless melo is incapable of running the oldest play in the book. and if that by some stretch is the case then what sort of basketball player is melo anyway? and if woodson is behind iso-ball at the expense of pick and roll basketball then how good a coach can he really be?

the main issue going into the season is can melo and amare not merely co-exist but actually help elevate each others games? frankly the onus is more on melo. if i don't see pick and rolls between melo and amare i am not going to have high hopes for this squad. pick and roll basketball is the most basic ways players can play with and for one another.

The onus should be on both players. There's a few ways this plays out

1. Melo and Amare and Woody/JKidd/all the super wise veterans figure out a way for our two stars to be productive together (offense AND defense) while they're both on the court at the same time. Hooray for Knicks fans/Woody/Players!

2. If Hollinger and others are correct and the team is better off with Amare coming off the bench, Woody keeps him as a starter in name only. Wins for everyone except maybe Amare's ego and I guess Knicks brass/Dolan IF they give a rat's ass about looking bad for giving a $100 M to someone to come off the bench. Even though it looks even dumber to insist on starting a guy/pairing him with Melo because of his contract.

3. Because Amare makes so much money he continues to be a starter and play with Melo and it costs us Ws. Hooray for Amare's ego and I guess the Knicks management somewhat saves face to SOME people by not looking "dumb" by giving a $100 M to someone to come off the bench.