misterearl wrote:You Can Get With This, Or You Can Get With That

knicks1248 wrote:I say woodson gets fired if this team is not top 4 in the league.

Eastern Conference Finals or bust, huh? Thankfully, Glen Grunwald is in charge of that decision. The Answer Man also knows the silly game of raising expectations past reality, just to insure someone fails, when he sees it.

knicks1248 wrote:
The Media and fans alike will be clamoring for his head.

The media has a job to sell papers. They would clamor for Red Holzman's head if he was in charge. Fans? Fans, who follow media cues, are stupid.

knicks1248 wrote:The only Thing that will save woodson IS MDA's PLAYBOOK.

So let me get this straight, if Mike Woodson wins, the only reason is some book that Mike D'Antoni left in his locker?

knicks1248 wrote:The 18-6 run was MDA's playbook for the most part, and he said it in almost every post game.

Wrong. The 18-6 run was a result of the entire team buying into a point of view they could get with. It's called accountability - and respect.

nykshaknbake wrote:I think what you don't realize is that coaching isn't just Xs' Os' on a grand strategic scale. You have to be a leader of men and a motivator. You also have to be adaptable to changing conditions. Woody adopted the general scheme but was was abl;e to be a motivator and did adapt his strategy. That's why sucessful companies aren't all run by the people with the highest IQ. Alot of those smart people are terrible leaders. If all you needed was a vague overall strategy we could get it from this message board. The Knicks could pay us millions and we could all split it.

To arbitrarily declare the great breakdown as pure BS, strips you of all credibility.

If I hadn't full explained my reasoning then you could accuse me of being arbitrary in my assessment of the the stat breakdown CashMoney did. The thing is that I was very specific in shooting it down.

1. he mentioned the 7 games starting the very day that MDA quit. You nor anyone else can give a credible argument what exactly Woody could've done in such a short turnaround to have effected the team so much that they went on to blowout multiple opponents.

2. You can't point to any changes to the plays or defense since he really didn't change the plays and admitted to such, which I posted statements in this thread from the coach to back up what i'm saying. He stated clearly that he didn't have time to make any changes save for some minor tweaks. None of which could account for the massive increase in effort. Woody knew this which is why he didn't even try to take credit for it or have any explanation for why it happened. Every article was written talking about that very fact. The only change of note was an increase in effort which was stark.

3. That increase in effort led to questions from the media as to why at that time did the teams best player suddenly play like a leader and give max effort only after MDA quit. No one including Woody had an answer. Instead we got a statement from Melo that suggested he willfully made up his mind to play harder, which suggests that he also willfully wasn't playing his hardest before that very day MDA quit.

4. as for the breakdown, it's an offensive breakdown covering the 7 games that STAT, Melo and Lin actually played together under Woody and it really only tells you the results of blowout games for the most part. I posted a list of the final scores of the Knicks opponents from thattime period to underscore that they won because or DEFENSE and not some amazing offense so those breakdowns are almost meaningless for an explanation of why the team won those games. They won based on great D. The very same D they had been playing all year, but with greater effort. Effort the players decided to give on their own. ie. Melo saying he just decided to give a greater effort.

nixluva wrote:

CashMoney wrote:Woodson had STAT, Melo and Lin for a total of 7 games and the Knicks go 6-1. Than as if by magic Melo become a better player. Hmmmm....interesting.

Melo during that 7 game stretch

14 PTS (6.5 points less)
1.5 STL (.67 more steals)
4.3 AST (2 assist more)
5.4 RBD (1.1 less)
.393 FG% (1.3% better)
13.4 FGA per game (4.6 less attempts per game)
Melo must have quit on Woody as well. He scored less, took less shots, didn't rebound as well as was still shooting less than 40% but become a more team oriented player becuase of the 2 additonal assists per game? Melo new found defensive intensity must not have carried over to hitting the boards either.

LIN
13.2 PTS (2.9 points less)
5.4 AST (1.9 less)
3.71 TO (.09 less)
1 STL (1.5 less)
.428 FG% (3.8% better)
9 FGA per game (5.5 less per game)

STAT
16.8 PTS (2.5 less)
8.1 RBD (.2 less)
1 BLK (same)
.578 FG% (3 % better)
10.8 FGA per game (2.8 less)

Seems to me that Woody made adjustements within the offense with regard to Melo & Lin and fine tuned things a bit with STAT. People can attribute the 6-1 record to the coaching change if they like but that also dismisses the 18-6 record over 36% of the season as well as his 9-4 (.692) record without Lin and without STAT.

Did Woody make MDA look bad? You're damn right he did.

You did a nice breakdown of the results, but this doesn't explain the REASON why the Knicks went 6-1 with STAT, Melo and Lin. Did you even watch the 1st 5 games of that stretch? Did you notice what the team did DEFENSIVELY during that stretch of 7 games? IN particular did you notice the extra energy and effort Melo played with even tho he still stunk offensively? You decided to point to offensive numbers during the time Woody came in but that wasn't even the story of what changed the most during that time.

How about we just look at what was the most significant factor in the wins this team had. The DEFENSE. Now let's remember that MDA resigned the day of the 1st win on the 14th, so it's not like Woody had a few practices to work his magic. In fact he had NO TIME to change anything of substance!!!

Mar. 14 Portland 79 pts
Mar. 16 Indiana 100 pts
Mar. 17 Indiana 88  pts
Mar. 20 Toronto 87  pts
Mar. 21 Philly  79  pts

Remember that during this stretch due to the closeness of the games there weren't any real practices and it was admitted by EVERYONE that Woody hadn't made any changes to the Offense or Defense. This was purely a shift in effort and most notably by Melo the teams best player and the guy who should've been leading by example all along. It would be nice if you could attribute the change to Wood's style of play and the removal of MDA and his system on O and D as the reason the team started busting it and winning, but we know for a FACT that Woody didn't really change what the team was doing and he barely had any time for a full practice with back to back games. PLEASE stop this garbage about Woody being more personable or him having some new grand strategy as some reason the team started winning. He didn't have time to change anything!!! PURE B.S.

knicks1248 wrote:Some of you act as if woodson was hired after mda quit...so the three months he was there was he not allowed to talk to the players, was he just a consultant to MDA...give me a break he still had the authority to approach any player if he thought they weren't playing hard or smart...so dont give this account ability stuff all of sudden when became the interim head coach..

So are you saying the voice of assistant coach is the same as the head coach? why give them titles then. You respect higher level of authorities. And also with a Higher Title comes a stronger pull for accountability. It happens in all realms of life. So Herb Williams had the same voice as Dantoni too? You guys can't just say u know what MDA did a terrible job and Woodson did better. It's that simple.

Here's a a excerpt from a article I found:

Woodson's hiring comes after a season in which the Celtics were said to be literally laughing on the court at the Knicks' defensive ineptitude by the time they finished sweeping their first-round playoff series, reviving the same criticisms of D'Antoni here in New York that he got tired of hearing when he bolted Phoenix. Remember, it wasn't some overactive fan or Suns executive that said, after one of their playoff series losses: "They beat us with the intangibles, they beat us with the little things, they beat us with the gamesmanship, they beat us with the attention to detail, the game plan, doing all the little things that win games."

That was Suns guard Raja Bell, a D'Antoni favorite.

misterearl wrote:Huddle Up

nykshaknbake wrote:I think what you don't realize is that coaching isn't just Xs' Os' on a grand strategic scale. You have to be a leader of men and a motivator. You also have to be adaptable to changing conditions. Woody adopted the general scheme but was was abl;e to be a motivator and did adapt his strategy. That's why sucessful companies aren't all run by the people with the highest IQ. Alot of those smart people are terrible leaders. If all you needed was a vague overall strategy we could get it from this message board. The Knicks could pay us millions and we could all split it.

Absolutely correct. Until one has actually been in an NBA locker room (no, we are not talking about the MSG guided tour) there is only superficial, third-hand reporting about what goes on between a head coach and his players. Coaches can have the perfect message, but are unable to get players to buy in because they do not have trust in his words... or his sincerity... or his critique.

Mike Woodson has demonstrated that he has the players attention.

All the dry-erase boards in the world are no substitute for trust.

Exactly...people acting like they shooting in the gym with these players and coaches lol. All we can base assessments on are results. Woodson got them and MDA didn't. case closed. now time for the 2012 season to see if Woodson and the 2012 Knicks are for real.

Amare Stoudemire entered the offseason wanting to work on his down-low game, and coach Mike Woodson agreed, explaining to his power forward that he wanted to use him more on the block next season.

From there, Woodson placed a phone call to one of the greatest centers in NBA history, Hakeem Olajuwon, with whom he played on the Rockets from 1988 to 1991. After discussing Stoudemire's goal, Olajuwon, who manages a big-man offseason camp at his home in Houston, booked STAT in his training schedule, which includes only a few players each summer.

"Coach really is the one who made it happen," said Travis King, Stoudemire's longtime training adviser. "Mike Woodson himself said he wants the ball to go through Amare in the post more, taking advantage of Amare and Tyson (Chandler), and even Carmelo Anthony. The Knicks' frontcourt has got to be one of the most experienced and best ones in the league. The games are decided inside most of the time. Amare has been one of the best bigs in the league for the past 10 years, really without any of the stuff that Hakeem has taught him."

Along with Nuggets center JaVale McGee, Stoudemire has been learning "Dream Shake" moves and defensive skills. Woodson has even stopped by to observe. - Jared Zwerling, ESPN

Yes, there are more important things than x's and O's. Relationships matter.

How can anyone NOT like how Woodson challenged Amar'e?

How many coaches have the respect of an all star to motivate them to work during the summer like this?

Hmmmm....

misterearl wrote:Yes, Mike Woodson Played A Juice Card That Mike D'Antoni Wished He Had

Amare Stoudemire entered the offseason wanting to work on his down-low game, and coach Mike Woodson agreed, explaining to his power forward that he wanted to use him more on the block next season.

From there, Woodson placed a phone call to one of the greatest centers in NBA history, Hakeem Olajuwon, with whom he played on the Rockets from 1988 to 1991. After discussing Stoudemire's goal, Olajuwon, who manages a big-man offseason camp at his home in Houston, booked STAT in his training schedule, which includes only a few players each summer.

"Coach really is the one who made it happen," said Travis King, Stoudemire's longtime training adviser. "Mike Woodson himself said he wants the ball to go through Amare in the post more, taking advantage of Amare and Tyson (Chandler), and even Carmelo Anthony. The Knicks' frontcourt has got to be one of the most experienced and best ones in the league. The games are decided inside most of the time. Amare has been one of the best bigs in the league for the past 10 years, really without any of the stuff that Hakeem has taught him."

Along with Nuggets center JaVale McGee, Stoudemire has been learning "Dream Shake" moves and defensive skills. Woodson has even stopped by to observe. - Jared Zwerling, ESPN

Yes, there are more important things than x's and O's. Relationships matter.

How can anyone NOT like how Woodson challenged Amar'e?

How many coaches have the respect of an all star to motivate them to work during the summer like this?

Hmmmm....

MDA so focused on making Melo a cough role player cough I mean "complete player". Yet had Amare for like 85% of his career and never cared about Amare developing a back to basket game, or passing ability out of the post.

All MDA knows is "COME ON, LET'S GOOOOO!!!"

knicks1248 wrote:But you can put your house, land, car and children on the line, THAT MDA will get a Flock of offers from every available HEAD COACHING position..HOW many offers did WOODY get when he was fired...

knicks1248 - where or when D'Antoni lands next is of no consequence to the Knicks. He is a member of the coaching fraternity so he will get another shot. Maybe he can chart deflections like Scott Layden. Last checked, Mike D'Antoni is still unemployed.

Mike Woodson works here now. Despite multiple injuries to rotation players - and barely ambulatory point guards - he drove the bus to an 18-6 record.

How cool is that?

knicks1248 wrote:You guys are hilarious..Amare was a All star under MDA with the suns and knicks, had his best seasons as a pro under mike..Amare came in to this town as one of the hardest working knicks on the roster.he didn't need woody to motivate him..

Amare is already a suspect defender, and had his worst year (defensively if then can happen) under woodson last season..

Whats even more suspect, your giving AMARE to much credit for going to work on his post moves when he should really be going to work out with motumbo on his post defense..I know hakeem was a very ggood defender, but all I keep hering about is this dream shake, and foot work...

Hey buddy, YOUR DEFENSIVE IQ is yellow short bus status..I love Amare and his work ethic, but It's come a time in players career, where you have to prioritize defense in your game..sitting down for a month with TYSON and Woodson breaking down tape would be a start in the right direction.

MDA turn Amare into one of the best offensive big man in the league, even with the injuries, he's still regarded has an elite scoring big man..

You see, you guys are GIVING MDA the run-of-the-mill coaching status without regards to having a elite pg to run his sysytem. Now were watching the knicks aquire all these defensive players, and want to praise WOODSON for his defensive schemes..

I want to stress that I don't dislike woodson, but IMO he hasn't done anything in this league, and was FIRED for it already..MDA on the other hand is a bit of a bitch himself, cause this is the 2nd position he left when things didn't go in his favor..

But you can put your house, land, car and children on the line, THAT MDA will get a Flock of offers from every available HEAD COACHING position..HOW many offers did WOODY get when he was fired...

MDA turned Amare to one of the best offensive big men in the league?? Amare is talented if he didn't do that then he was truly a bum coach. You would have to be retarded to not turn Amare into one of the best offensive big men.

"Here coach I've got this 6'10 Power Forward with a 40 inch vertical, Long Arms, Quick as a Cat with the speed of a Small Forward. I know this is a hard coaching job but we trust u MDA"

Also He isn't only going to Olajuwon for Post Moves. It's been reported he is working on Amare's defensive technique too.

I think we are giving MDA too much credit for the Suns history. those teams were stacked with talent and a great PG. Look at Mike brown's record with Cleveland and Lakers. Is he a great coach or just has been blessed with great talent?