SupremeCommander wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

fishmike wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

fishmike wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Vmart wrote:No one is going to hand the championship to Amare he has to earn it. By that I mean bring it on defense and rebound better than an SF. I don't doubt Amare's ability to score he is very good at it. What I do doubt with Amare is his commitment to defense and rebounding. You can say you want a championship or whatever for that matter but what is he doing to get that championship. Commitment to defense is where it is at with Amare.

That's what I keep saying about Amare playing the "Garnet" role, but the Amare defenders want to focus on him returing to 25 pts and game and 54% FG. I don't care if Amare averages 17 pts a game, as long as he grabs 10 boards, gets close to 2 blocks and 1 steal a game, and doesn't let offensive players go by him like it's doorbusters on Black Friday. It's all about the little things, man forget about scoring you Amare apologists. Play D, box out, help off your man on drives, dive for loose balls, don't be a cardboard stiff out there. MOVE YOUR FUCKING FEET! The little things. Like David in Prometheus says, "Big Things Have Small Beginnings."

if this is what you think you have no idea what wins games in the NBA. Im sorry man.

Amare apologists? Garnett? What are you talking about? Garnett plays his role because he's one of the leagues best defenders and always has been.

"Amare defenders want to focus on him returing to 25 pts and game and 54% FG."

Yes.. because teams with scorers that score at that rate are the elite teams that advance year after year in the playoffs. Thats why I want to see that return.

Lets say it all together now.... scoring at a higher FG% is better than a lower one. Do you understand that concept? Do you understand the value of a scorer that does so at a rate of over 50% Pretty obvious you dont.

What makes a winning team? When players are put in the roles that best suit their games. You have one of the elite frontcourt scores in the game and you want to take the ball out of his hands. It just doesnt make sense. You can throw around Amare apologist or Melo haters or any crap you want. This is fundamental basketball and the player's history on this roster suggests this.

I'm with you but would like to add I wish it was that easy to tell a guy to be the next KG. On top of why you said it would be nice for Amar'e to get 25 on 54%, I'd like to see him revert to prior form because that's the player he is when he's performing at his best. But, then again, it would be really nice if Amar'e would play like Dirk. We could use a stretch 4

2 years ago I think most of us were pretty suprised by the range of Amare's jumper. That is the thing that will expand his offense. Just like it did for Ewing. That will continue to get better. Another example is Kurt Thomas...

KG is an MVP (2 time?). Before last year Amare was a top 10 player, but not an MVP caliber. Lets just call it like we see it shall we?

Its as simple as this: If you want to maximize the impact of this roster you feed Amare the ball. Having him play better D and doing the little things is great, for Knick opponents. Please.. If I am playing the Knicks PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE lets see Amare get 17 points and "do the little things." What a joke. Lets see the guy who dropped 25 on you.

Lets put this in perspective. Here are the players who have scored 20ppg on 50% shooting or greater:
2011 - Lebron, Aldridge, Blake Griffin, David Lee
2010 - Lebron, Amare, Dirk, Wade, Griffin, Dwight, Aldridge, Zach
2009 - Lebron, Amare, Bosh, David Lee
2008 - Chris Paul, Tony Parker
2007 - Amare, Boozer, Al Jefferson, Dwight
2006 - Dirk, Amare, Boozer, Brand, Duncan
2005 - Brand, Bosh, Marion, KG, Gasol
2004 - Amare, Shaq, KG, Brand
2003 - Duncan, Shaq
2002 - Shaq, Duncan, KG

Its been done 40 times in the last 10 years. In those 40 times only 3 of them came from players on losing teams (Lee x2 and Al Jefferson).

This type of scoring = winning basketball. The math should be that hard to digest

I agree with you 100 percent. I was just trying to highlight the absurdity of saying that player X should be "the next KG" or "the next Dirk" or player Y should become "the next Duncan"

I mean, Amar'e hitting that three to beat Boston that left his hand after time expired so the Knicks didn't win is a great example of his range being far greater than anticipated. that shot came out of nowhere

Supreme forget about offense for a second. Amare is a terrific scorer. It's in his DNA. Focus on D.

fair enough... I'm with you on the premise that we need Amar'e's D and rebounding to be better. i would just phrase it differently because there's only one KG

I'd settle for Amar'e reinventing himself the way Larry Johnson reinvented himself. Timely offense and a pitbull on D

Not comparing him to KG, just in the sacrifice it takes to win in this league. Bosh was the man scoring 24/gm in Toronto. Now he's in the high teens, sometimes, literally the 3rd or 4th option it seems on offense. We need Amare not to get frustrated if the offense doesn't run through him. Bosh is known as a poor shot blocker for his career, but in the NBA Finals you see him block Kevin Durant and Nick Collison consecutively in a key sequence in the 4th quarter. It's all about sacrifice. And forget about Amare fitting with Tyson and vice versa, let Woodson and Kidd worry about that on offense. If memory serves me right, KG was able to win a chip with Kendrick Perkins, Duncan with Robinson, Pau with Bynum, Dirk with Tyson. That whole argument of them playing together is moot, unless you're worried about offensive stats.

ChuckBuck wrote:

fishmike wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

fishmike wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Vmart wrote:No one is going to hand the championship to Amare he has to earn it. By that I mean bring it on defense and rebound better than an SF. I don't doubt Amare's ability to score he is very good at it. What I do doubt with Amare is his commitment to defense and rebounding. You can say you want a championship or whatever for that matter but what is he doing to get that championship. Commitment to defense is where it is at with Amare.

That's what I keep saying about Amare playing the "Garnet" role, but the Amare defenders want to focus on him returing to 25 pts and game and 54% FG. I don't care if Amare averages 17 pts a game, as long as he grabs 10 boards, gets close to 2 blocks and 1 steal a game, and doesn't let offensive players go by him like it's doorbusters on Black Friday. It's all about the little things, man forget about scoring you Amare apologists. Play D, box out, help off your man on drives, dive for loose balls, don't be a cardboard stiff out there. MOVE YOUR FUCKING FEET! The little things. Like David in Prometheus says, "Big Things Have Small Beginnings."

if this is what you think you have no idea what wins games in the NBA. Im sorry man.

Amare apologists? Garnett? What are you talking about? Garnett plays his role because he's one of the leagues best defenders and always has been.

"Amare defenders want to focus on him returing to 25 pts and game and 54% FG."

Yes.. because teams with scorers that score at that rate are the elite teams that advance year after year in the playoffs. Thats why I want to see that return.

Lets say it all together now.... scoring at a higher FG% is better than a lower one. Do you understand that concept? Do you understand the value of a scorer that does so at a rate of over 50% Pretty obvious you dont.

What makes a winning team? When players are put in the roles that best suit their games. You have one of the elite frontcourt scores in the game and you want to take the ball out of his hands. It just doesnt make sense. You can throw around Amare apologist or Melo haters or any crap you want. This is fundamental basketball and the player's history on this roster suggests this.

Sorry to burst your bubble, Fishmike, but you if you don't know Defense wins Championships, then you don't know basketball. Nowitzki wasn't a great defender, slow of foot as they come, but he helped box his man out in Dallas Zone matchup scheme vs Miami. Bosh played the best defense I've ever seen him play in this recent Finals, and he and Amare are a pretty close comparison. When are you going to bring defense to the discussion with Amare? Never? Apologist.

when logic fails insert big stupid picture right chuckbuck?

Who's talking about winning a title? A playoff series would be nice.

Is Bosh a superior defender to Amare? He isnt... so how did the Heat win a title?

And who is apologizing? Amare isnt a good defender. With Lin/Amare/Melo on the floor the Knicks are not a great defensive unit, but you can still win just fine when you are scoring effeciently.

Before the Knicks Amare was 28-25 in the playoffs. Because when you give your team 25/10/55% in the playoffs (Amare's rebounding for his carer is 10 in the playoffs) your going to win a lot of games. Its hard to keep pace with that scoring effeciency.

Are you understanding now?

So you'd rather Amare average 25/8/54FG% than the Knicks win a title. Got it. For the Knicks to win anything of substance, the whole team has to commit to defense. Before 2010, I'd say Amare was a superior defender to Bosh, just for all those volleyball blocks he used to do in Phoenix. After this Finals run, I'd have to give the edge defensively to Bosh. He has bought in completely and is doing the little things. Previous to this season, you could say both Bosh and Amare were similiar type finesse players that weren't really bangers in the true PF sense. They had similiar numbers and were considered 1 and 1a in the PF pool during the summer of 2010 free agency. Bosh has now distanced himself from Amare, not in the numbers, but in that he sacrificed his game for the greater good, and without even a single peep. He has concentrated on rebounding, playing excellent help D, and defense, and become a decent shot blocker. Something Amare has the capability to do, but either refuses to put the effort, lacks the desire, or is more focused on 25/8/54FG%.

ChuckBuck wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

fishmike wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

fishmike wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Vmart wrote:No one is going to hand the championship to Amare he has to earn it. By that I mean bring it on defense and rebound better than an SF. I don't doubt Amare's ability to score he is very good at it. What I do doubt with Amare is his commitment to defense and rebounding. You can say you want a championship or whatever for that matter but what is he doing to get that championship. Commitment to defense is where it is at with Amare.

That's what I keep saying about Amare playing the "Garnet" role, but the Amare defenders want to focus on him returing to 25 pts and game and 54% FG. I don't care if Amare averages 17 pts a game, as long as he grabs 10 boards, gets close to 2 blocks and 1 steal a game, and doesn't let offensive players go by him like it's doorbusters on Black Friday. It's all about the little things, man forget about scoring you Amare apologists. Play D, box out, help off your man on drives, dive for loose balls, don't be a cardboard stiff out there. MOVE YOUR FUCKING FEET! The little things. Like David in Prometheus says, "Big Things Have Small Beginnings."

if this is what you think you have no idea what wins games in the NBA. Im sorry man.

Amare apologists? Garnett? What are you talking about? Garnett plays his role because he's one of the leagues best defenders and always has been.

"Amare defenders want to focus on him returing to 25 pts and game and 54% FG."

Yes.. because teams with scorers that score at that rate are the elite teams that advance year after year in the playoffs. Thats why I want to see that return.

Lets say it all together now.... scoring at a higher FG% is better than a lower one. Do you understand that concept? Do you understand the value of a scorer that does so at a rate of over 50% Pretty obvious you dont.

What makes a winning team? When players are put in the roles that best suit their games. You have one of the elite frontcourt scores in the game and you want to take the ball out of his hands. It just doesnt make sense. You can throw around Amare apologist or Melo haters or any crap you want. This is fundamental basketball and the player's history on this roster suggests this.

I'm with you but would like to add I wish it was that easy to tell a guy to be the next KG. On top of why you said it would be nice for Amar'e to get 25 on 54%, I'd like to see him revert to prior form because that's the player he is when he's performing at his best. But, then again, it would be really nice if Amar'e would play like Dirk. We could use a stretch 4

2 years ago I think most of us were pretty suprised by the range of Amare's jumper. That is the thing that will expand his offense. Just like it did for Ewing. That will continue to get better. Another example is Kurt Thomas...

KG is an MVP (2 time?). Before last year Amare was a top 10 player, but not an MVP caliber. Lets just call it like we see it shall we?

Its as simple as this: If you want to maximize the impact of this roster you feed Amare the ball. Having him play better D and doing the little things is great, for Knick opponents. Please.. If I am playing the Knicks PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE lets see Amare get 17 points and "do the little things." What a joke. Lets see the guy who dropped 25 on you.

Lets put this in perspective. Here are the players who have scored 20ppg on 50% shooting or greater:
2011 - Lebron, Aldridge, Blake Griffin, David Lee
2010 - Lebron, Amare, Dirk, Wade, Griffin, Dwight, Aldridge, Zach
2009 - Lebron, Amare, Bosh, David Lee
2008 - Chris Paul, Tony Parker
2007 - Amare, Boozer, Al Jefferson, Dwight
2006 - Dirk, Amare, Boozer, Brand, Duncan
2005 - Brand, Bosh, Marion, KG, Gasol
2004 - Amare, Shaq, KG, Brand
2003 - Duncan, Shaq
2002 - Shaq, Duncan, KG

Its been done 40 times in the last 10 years. In those 40 times only 3 of them came from players on losing teams (Lee x2 and Al Jefferson).

This type of scoring = winning basketball. The math should be that hard to digest

I agree with you 100 percent. I was just trying to highlight the absurdity of saying that player X should be "the next KG" or "the next Dirk" or player Y should become "the next Duncan"

I mean, Amar'e hitting that three to beat Boston that left his hand after time expired so the Knicks didn't win is a great example of his range being far greater than anticipated. that shot came out of nowhere

Supreme forget about offense for a second. Amare is a terrific scorer. It's in his DNA. Focus on D.

fair enough... I'm with you on the premise that we need Amar'e's D and rebounding to be better. i would just phrase it differently because there's only one KG

I'd settle for Amar'e reinventing himself the way Larry Johnson reinvented himself. Timely offense and a pitbull on D

Not comparing him to KG, just in the sacrifice it takes to win in this league. Bosh was the man scoring 24/gm in Toronto. Now he's in the high teens, sometimes, literally the 3rd or 4th option it seems on offense. We need Amare not to get frustrated if the offense doesn't run through him. Bosh is known as a poor shot blocker for his career, but in the NBA Finals you see him block Kevin Durant and Nick Collison consecutively in a key sequence in the 4th quarter. It's all about sacrifice. And forget about Amare fitting with Tyson and vice versa, let Woodson and Kidd worry about that on offense. If memory serves me right, KG was able to win a chip with Kendrick Perkins, Duncan with Robinson, Pau with Bynum, Dirk with Tyson. That whole argument of them playing together is moot, unless you're worried about offensive stats.

Sorry dude.. Amare brings something to the table thats just as important as ANY other aspect of the game. Keep ignoring it

and why wouldn't you? amar'e is a dynamic scorer (when healthy and hopefully he is) we all would like it if he played more defense but if he does what he does offensively, i'll happily just take that. i don't think it's that difficult really.

fishmike wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

fishmike wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

fishmike wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

fishmike wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Vmart wrote:No one is going to hand the championship to Amare he has to earn it. By that I mean bring it on defense and rebound better than an SF. I don't doubt Amare's ability to score he is very good at it. What I do doubt with Amare is his commitment to defense and rebounding. You can say you want a championship or whatever for that matter but what is he doing to get that championship. Commitment to defense is where it is at with Amare.

That's what I keep saying about Amare playing the "Garnet" role, but the Amare defenders want to focus on him returing to 25 pts and game and 54% FG. I don't care if Amare averages 17 pts a game, as long as he grabs 10 boards, gets close to 2 blocks and 1 steal a game, and doesn't let offensive players go by him like it's doorbusters on Black Friday. It's all about the little things, man forget about scoring you Amare apologists. Play D, box out, help off your man on drives, dive for loose balls, don't be a cardboard stiff out there. MOVE YOUR FUCKING FEET! The little things. Like David in Prometheus says, "Big Things Have Small Beginnings."

if this is what you think you have no idea what wins games in the NBA. Im sorry man.

Amare apologists? Garnett? What are you talking about? Garnett plays his role because he's one of the leagues best defenders and always has been.

"Amare defenders want to focus on him returing to 25 pts and game and 54% FG."

Yes.. because teams with scorers that score at that rate are the elite teams that advance year after year in the playoffs. Thats why I want to see that return.

Lets say it all together now.... scoring at a higher FG% is better than a lower one. Do you understand that concept? Do you understand the value of a scorer that does so at a rate of over 50% Pretty obvious you dont.

What makes a winning team? When players are put in the roles that best suit their games. You have one of the elite frontcourt scores in the game and you want to take the ball out of his hands. It just doesnt make sense. You can throw around Amare apologist or Melo haters or any crap you want. This is fundamental basketball and the player's history on this roster suggests this.

Sorry to burst your bubble, Fishmike, but you if you don't know Defense wins Championships, then you don't know basketball. Nowitzki wasn't a great defender, slow of foot as they come, but he helped box his man out in Dallas Zone matchup scheme vs Miami. Bosh played the best defense I've ever seen him play in this recent Finals, and he and Amare are a pretty close comparison. When are you going to bring defense to the discussion with Amare? Never? Apologist.

when logic fails insert big stupid picture right chuckbuck?

Who's talking about winning a title? A playoff series would be nice.

Is Bosh a superior defender to Amare? He isnt... so how did the Heat win a title?

And who is apologizing? Amare isnt a good defender. With Lin/Amare/Melo on the floor the Knicks are not a great defensive unit, but you can still win just fine when you are scoring effeciently.

Before the Knicks Amare was 28-25 in the playoffs. Because when you give your team 25/10/55% in the playoffs (Amare's rebounding for his carer is 10 in the playoffs) your going to win a lot of games. Its hard to keep pace with that scoring effeciency.

Are you understanding now?

So you'd rather Amare average 25/8/54FG% than the Knicks win a title. Got it. For the Knicks to win anything of substance, the whole team has to commit to defense. Before 2010, I'd say Amare was a superior defender to Bosh, just for all those volleyball blocks he used to do in Phoenix. After this Finals run, I'd have to give the edge defensively to Bosh. He has bought in completely and is doing the little things. Previous to this season, you could say both Bosh and Amare were similiar type finesse players that weren't really bangers in the true PF sense. They had similiar numbers and were considered 1 and 1a in the PF pool during the summer of 2010 free agency. Bosh has now distanced himself from Amare, not in the numbers, but in that he sacrificed his game for the greater good, and without even a single peep. He has concentrated on rebounding, playing excellent help D, and defense, and become a decent shot blocker. Something Amare has the capability to do, but either refuses to put the effort, lacks the desire, or is more focused on 25/8/54FG%.

so you think Bosh is the best player in the NBA. Got it

If that's what you got out of it, I severely underestimated your reading comprehension. And still nothing from you about Amare's defense...

your garbage: So you'd rather Amare average 25/8/54FG% than the Knicks win a title. Got it.

Mine was in retort to yours. Garbage in garbage out dude. Want to talk about it let talk.

Amare's defense isnt strong. Never has been, and it doesnt have to be for the Knicks to be an elite team. why? Because when you drop 25 at 55% your destroying your opponent.

Of course defense is importat. I creamed myself when we got Tyson Chandler, because I understand the importance of defense. I hate the Melo trade because we already had a forward who was a great scorer and below average defender, we didnt need two. Both Melo and Amare need to improve on defense. Its a big concern for Lin also.

I dont need to apologize for the weak parts of Amare's game. He's shown he can win. He's shown his game translate to PLAYOFF WINS. Your just talking. Your statements are farts in the wind. A little noise, maybe a whiff of something then poof its gone. Your just a hater. Keep ignoring the facts. Its just hate and noise your making man

I'll fart all I want it's a free country!

P.S. - Amare's game hasn't translated to much wins minus Steve Nash.

ChuckBuck wrote:

fishmike wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

fishmike wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

fishmike wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Vmart wrote:No one is going to hand the championship to Amare he has to earn it. By that I mean bring it on defense and rebound better than an SF. I don't doubt Amare's ability to score he is very good at it. What I do doubt with Amare is his commitment to defense and rebounding. You can say you want a championship or whatever for that matter but what is he doing to get that championship. Commitment to defense is where it is at with Amare.

That's what I keep saying about Amare playing the "Garnet" role, but the Amare defenders want to focus on him returing to 25 pts and game and 54% FG. I don't care if Amare averages 17 pts a game, as long as he grabs 10 boards, gets close to 2 blocks and 1 steal a game, and doesn't let offensive players go by him like it's doorbusters on Black Friday. It's all about the little things, man forget about scoring you Amare apologists. Play D, box out, help off your man on drives, dive for loose balls, don't be a cardboard stiff out there. MOVE YOUR FUCKING FEET! The little things. Like David in Prometheus says, "Big Things Have Small Beginnings."

if this is what you think you have no idea what wins games in the NBA. Im sorry man.

Amare apologists? Garnett? What are you talking about? Garnett plays his role because he's one of the leagues best defenders and always has been.

"Amare defenders want to focus on him returing to 25 pts and game and 54% FG."

Yes.. because teams with scorers that score at that rate are the elite teams that advance year after year in the playoffs. Thats why I want to see that return.

Lets say it all together now.... scoring at a higher FG% is better than a lower one. Do you understand that concept? Do you understand the value of a scorer that does so at a rate of over 50% Pretty obvious you dont.

What makes a winning team? When players are put in the roles that best suit their games. You have one of the elite frontcourt scores in the game and you want to take the ball out of his hands. It just doesnt make sense. You can throw around Amare apologist or Melo haters or any crap you want. This is fundamental basketball and the player's history on this roster suggests this.

I'm with you but would like to add I wish it was that easy to tell a guy to be the next KG. On top of why you said it would be nice for Amar'e to get 25 on 54%, I'd like to see him revert to prior form because that's the player he is when he's performing at his best. But, then again, it would be really nice if Amar'e would play like Dirk. We could use a stretch 4

2 years ago I think most of us were pretty suprised by the range of Amare's jumper. That is the thing that will expand his offense. Just like it did for Ewing. That will continue to get better. Another example is Kurt Thomas...

KG is an MVP (2 time?). Before last year Amare was a top 10 player, but not an MVP caliber. Lets just call it like we see it shall we?

Its as simple as this: If you want to maximize the impact of this roster you feed Amare the ball. Having him play better D and doing the little things is great, for Knick opponents. Please.. If I am playing the Knicks PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE lets see Amare get 17 points and "do the little things." What a joke. Lets see the guy who dropped 25 on you.

Lets put this in perspective. Here are the players who have scored 20ppg on 50% shooting or greater:
2011 - Lebron, Aldridge, Blake Griffin, David Lee
2010 - Lebron, Amare, Dirk, Wade, Griffin, Dwight, Aldridge, Zach
2009 - Lebron, Amare, Bosh, David Lee
2008 - Chris Paul, Tony Parker
2007 - Amare, Boozer, Al Jefferson, Dwight
2006 - Dirk, Amare, Boozer, Brand, Duncan
2005 - Brand, Bosh, Marion, KG, Gasol
2004 - Amare, Shaq, KG, Brand
2003 - Duncan, Shaq
2002 - Shaq, Duncan, KG

Its been done 40 times in the last 10 years. In those 40 times only 3 of them came from players on losing teams (Lee x2 and Al Jefferson).

This type of scoring = winning basketball. The math should be that hard to digest

I agree with you 100 percent. I was just trying to highlight the absurdity of saying that player X should be "the next KG" or "the next Dirk" or player Y should become "the next Duncan"

I mean, Amar'e hitting that three to beat Boston that left his hand after time expired so the Knicks didn't win is a great example of his range being far greater than anticipated. that shot came out of nowhere

Supreme forget about offense for a second. Amare is a terrific scorer. It's in his DNA. Focus on D.

fair enough... I'm with you on the premise that we need Amar'e's D and rebounding to be better. i would just phrase it differently because there's only one KG

I'd settle for Amar'e reinventing himself the way Larry Johnson reinvented himself. Timely offense and a pitbull on D

Not comparing him to KG, just in the sacrifice it takes to win in this league. Bosh was the man scoring 24/gm in Toronto. Now he's in the high teens, sometimes, literally the 3rd or 4th option it seems on offense. We need Amare not to get frustrated if the offense doesn't run through him. Bosh is known as a poor shot blocker for his career, but in the NBA Finals you see him block Kevin Durant and Nick Collison consecutively in a key sequence in the 4th quarter. It's all about sacrifice. And forget about Amare fitting with Tyson and vice versa, let Woodson and Kidd worry about that on offense. If memory serves me right, KG was able to win a chip with Kendrick Perkins, Duncan with Robinson, Pau with Bynum, Dirk with Tyson. That whole argument of them playing together is moot, unless you're worried about offensive stats.

Dirk won a title with Tyson? Gee... I wonder if Rick Carlisle said "Dirk... stop scoring and focus on D. What I really need you to do is the little things."

Sorry dude.. Amare brings something to the table thats just as important as ANY other aspect of the game. Keep ignoring it

Listen, we all know Amare can score. That isn't a question. The real question is are you going to continue to ignore Amare's defense or lack of? They played a great defensive scheme in Dallas, played alot of zone against Miami, which hid alot of Dirk's defensive deficiencies. If that's what they have to do to cover up Amare on D, then I'm all for it. But until then, I'm pretty sure Woody is more into holding each and every player accountable for their man on defense. So, are you going to continue giving Amare a free pass, or will you look at the big picture instead?

The big picture is ALL Im looking at.

Every player has deficiencies. If you have a scorer who can give you 20+ppg and shoot over 50% that is a very rare commodity, and you build AROUND that commodity.

The list of players who score 20ppg at over 50% is very small. If you add good defense to that you have a list of the best players in NBA history. Shaq, Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson, Duncan (only did it twice), etc etc

I do not expect that from Amare. Does that make me an apologist? No.. it makes you a hater which is pretty clear.

I do know that team with Amare as the featured scorer was 28-25 in the playoffs in the West and that was NOBODY playing defense except Marion and Raja Bell.

So no... no apologies needed. Before talking about a title lets win a playoff series first yea?

fishmike wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

fishmike wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

fishmike wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

fishmike wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Vmart wrote:No one is going to hand the championship to Amare he has to earn it. By that I mean bring it on defense and rebound better than an SF. I don't doubt Amare's ability to score he is very good at it. What I do doubt with Amare is his commitment to defense and rebounding. You can say you want a championship or whatever for that matter but what is he doing to get that championship. Commitment to defense is where it is at with Amare.

That's what I keep saying about Amare playing the "Garnet" role, but the Amare defenders want to focus on him returing to 25 pts and game and 54% FG. I don't care if Amare averages 17 pts a game, as long as he grabs 10 boards, gets close to 2 blocks and 1 steal a game, and doesn't let offensive players go by him like it's doorbusters on Black Friday. It's all about the little things, man forget about scoring you Amare apologists. Play D, box out, help off your man on drives, dive for loose balls, don't be a cardboard stiff out there. MOVE YOUR FUCKING FEET! The little things. Like David in Prometheus says, "Big Things Have Small Beginnings."

if this is what you think you have no idea what wins games in the NBA. Im sorry man.

Amare apologists? Garnett? What are you talking about? Garnett plays his role because he's one of the leagues best defenders and always has been.

"Amare defenders want to focus on him returing to 25 pts and game and 54% FG."

Yes.. because teams with scorers that score at that rate are the elite teams that advance year after year in the playoffs. Thats why I want to see that return.

Lets say it all together now.... scoring at a higher FG% is better than a lower one. Do you understand that concept? Do you understand the value of a scorer that does so at a rate of over 50% Pretty obvious you dont.

What makes a winning team? When players are put in the roles that best suit their games. You have one of the elite frontcourt scores in the game and you want to take the ball out of his hands. It just doesnt make sense. You can throw around Amare apologist or Melo haters or any crap you want. This is fundamental basketball and the player's history on this roster suggests this.

I'm with you but would like to add I wish it was that easy to tell a guy to be the next KG. On top of why you said it would be nice for Amar'e to get 25 on 54%, I'd like to see him revert to prior form because that's the player he is when he's performing at his best. But, then again, it would be really nice if Amar'e would play like Dirk. We could use a stretch 4

2 years ago I think most of us were pretty suprised by the range of Amare's jumper. That is the thing that will expand his offense. Just like it did for Ewing. That will continue to get better. Another example is Kurt Thomas...

KG is an MVP (2 time?). Before last year Amare was a top 10 player, but not an MVP caliber. Lets just call it like we see it shall we?

Its as simple as this: If you want to maximize the impact of this roster you feed Amare the ball. Having him play better D and doing the little things is great, for Knick opponents. Please.. If I am playing the Knicks PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE lets see Amare get 17 points and "do the little things." What a joke. Lets see the guy who dropped 25 on you.

Lets put this in perspective. Here are the players who have scored 20ppg on 50% shooting or greater:
2011 - Lebron, Aldridge, Blake Griffin, David Lee
2010 - Lebron, Amare, Dirk, Wade, Griffin, Dwight, Aldridge, Zach
2009 - Lebron, Amare, Bosh, David Lee
2008 - Chris Paul, Tony Parker
2007 - Amare, Boozer, Al Jefferson, Dwight
2006 - Dirk, Amare, Boozer, Brand, Duncan
2005 - Brand, Bosh, Marion, KG, Gasol
2004 - Amare, Shaq, KG, Brand
2003 - Duncan, Shaq
2002 - Shaq, Duncan, KG

Its been done 40 times in the last 10 years. In those 40 times only 3 of them came from players on losing teams (Lee x2 and Al Jefferson).

This type of scoring = winning basketball. The math should be that hard to digest

I agree with you 100 percent. I was just trying to highlight the absurdity of saying that player X should be "the next KG" or "the next Dirk" or player Y should become "the next Duncan"

I mean, Amar'e hitting that three to beat Boston that left his hand after time expired so the Knicks didn't win is a great example of his range being far greater than anticipated. that shot came out of nowhere

Supreme forget about offense for a second. Amare is a terrific scorer. It's in his DNA. Focus on D.

fair enough... I'm with you on the premise that we need Amar'e's D and rebounding to be better. i would just phrase it differently because there's only one KG

I'd settle for Amar'e reinventing himself the way Larry Johnson reinvented himself. Timely offense and a pitbull on D

Not comparing him to KG, just in the sacrifice it takes to win in this league. Bosh was the man scoring 24/gm in Toronto. Now he's in the high teens, sometimes, literally the 3rd or 4th option it seems on offense. We need Amare not to get frustrated if the offense doesn't run through him. Bosh is known as a poor shot blocker for his career, but in the NBA Finals you see him block Kevin Durant and Nick Collison consecutively in a key sequence in the 4th quarter. It's all about sacrifice. And forget about Amare fitting with Tyson and vice versa, let Woodson and Kidd worry about that on offense. If memory serves me right, KG was able to win a chip with Kendrick Perkins, Duncan with Robinson, Pau with Bynum, Dirk with Tyson. That whole argument of them playing together is moot, unless you're worried about offensive stats.

Dirk won a title with Tyson? Gee... I wonder if Rick Carlisle said "Dirk... stop scoring and focus on D. What I really need you to do is the little things."

Sorry dude.. Amare brings something to the table thats just as important as ANY other aspect of the game. Keep ignoring it

Listen, we all know Amare can score. That isn't a question. The real question is are you going to continue to ignore Amare's defense or lack of? They played a great defensive scheme in Dallas, played alot of zone against Miami, which hid alot of Dirk's defensive deficiencies. If that's what they have to do to cover up Amare on D, then I'm all for it. But until then, I'm pretty sure Woody is more into holding each and every player accountable for their man on defense. So, are you going to continue giving Amare a free pass, or will you look at the big picture instead?

Im not ignoring anything.

The big picture is ALL Im looking at.

Every player has deficiencies. If you have a scorer who can give you 20+ppg and shoot over 50% that is a very rare commodity, and you build AROUND that commodity.

The list of players who score 20ppg at over 50% is very small. If you add good defense to that you have a list of the best players in NBA history. Shaq, Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson, Duncan (only did it twice), etc etc

I do not expect that from Amare. Does that make me an apologist? No.. it makes you a hater which is pretty clear.

I do know that team with Amare as the featured scorer was 28-25 in the playoffs in the West and that was NOBODY playing defense except Marion and Raja Bell.

So no... no apologies needed. Before talking about a title lets win a playoff series first yea?

How can we if Amare keeps letting his guy and the other 4 guys on the other team score?

knicks1248 wrote:It's alarming how ppl question his wrk ethic....how come no one ever really sweated the fact that players like dikembe and rodman had no offensive game..

Amare is not here because of his defense.as soon as some you can understand that you'll apprciate him more..n stop trying to turn him into EWING

Nobody's trying to turn Amare into Ewing, just want to see more effort in other areas besides scoring. This guy pretty much breaks down my frustration with Amare:

Vmart wrote:Fish, you have always been an advocate of defense win championships. What I don't understand is why you are letting Amare off the hook for poor defense. Yes it's really good that Amare shoots 54%, but what good is that if his opponent is right there with him or close to the same percentage. It's a wash, whatever advantage that Amare gives you is taken away by his poor defense. How often do the poor scoring PF get off on Amare and have their best games vs him. You can't just do offense and hope you out score your opponent and go right back on defense and let the other team score without resistance. The great ones bring it on both sides of the floor. Amare claims to be a beast, but he is soft. Now he is damaged goods his defense is gonna suffer even more. The lack of effort on defense, it's pathetic. There is no one who could defend Amare and his defense. There is no pass on defense, I don't care what the numbers are offensively it's the defensive side of the floor that determines whether you win a chip.

Im not letting any player off the hook for anything. All Im saying is the offense should be run with Amare being the first scoring option.

I never ever anywhere ever said Amare doesnt need to put effort in on defense or improve there. I did say he didnt need to dramatically change his offensive game.

Im also talking about impact and effort, and Amare getting back to the player he was his first year here will translate into wins, far more than him scoring less and and being a better defender.

we have a dilema right? We have yet to see Amare/Melo be a potent combo for any prolonged stretch of time. So whats the solution? What will make them a potent combo?

Well, you have to look at what they do best as players. What Amare does best is score the ball at a high rate, which I have documented with proof to be among the best of his era. He's a servicable rebounder and a below average defender. So you surround that scoring with guys who can cover for him. Chandler is certainly that player. Why do you cover for him? Because >20ppg and >50% is an asset proven to yield postseason wins Amare is 28-25 in the playoffs pre-Knicks).

Next you have MElo. Another great scorer, but a volume scorer and ball stopper. This is where the bigger change needs to happen. Having a 46% shooter hold the ball and survey the defense isnt winning you games. Certainly not in the playoffs (16-30 in playoffs pre-Knicks). But Melo is still a gifted scorer, can post up, iso and has probably the best midrange game in the NBA. What he needs to do is score in the flow of the offense except when the shot clock is dying or its a hold the ball for last shot scenario.

Neither of these players will ever be great defenders, but there is no reason they both cant improve. Neither gets a pass, and BOTH players bring assets worthy of having their poor defense "covered for."

People here want Amare kicked to the curb, which is so outlandish and stupid its headscratching.

ChuckBuck wrote:

fishmike wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

fishmike wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

fishmike wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

fishmike wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Vmart wrote:No one is going to hand the championship to Amare he has to earn it. By that I mean bring it on defense and rebound better than an SF. I don't doubt Amare's ability to score he is very good at it. What I do doubt with Amare is his commitment to defense and rebounding. You can say you want a championship or whatever for that matter but what is he doing to get that championship. Commitment to defense is where it is at with Amare.

That's what I keep saying about Amare playing the "Garnet" role, but the Amare defenders want to focus on him returing to 25 pts and game and 54% FG. I don't care if Amare averages 17 pts a game, as long as he grabs 10 boards, gets close to 2 blocks and 1 steal a game, and doesn't let offensive players go by him like it's doorbusters on Black Friday. It's all about the little things, man forget about scoring you Amare apologists. Play D, box out, help off your man on drives, dive for loose balls, don't be a cardboard stiff out there. MOVE YOUR FUCKING FEET! The little things. Like David in Prometheus says, "Big Things Have Small Beginnings."

if this is what you think you have no idea what wins games in the NBA. Im sorry man.

Amare apologists? Garnett? What are you talking about? Garnett plays his role because he's one of the leagues best defenders and always has been.

"Amare defenders want to focus on him returing to 25 pts and game and 54% FG."

Yes.. because teams with scorers that score at that rate are the elite teams that advance year after year in the playoffs. Thats why I want to see that return.

Lets say it all together now.... scoring at a higher FG% is better than a lower one. Do you understand that concept? Do you understand the value of a scorer that does so at a rate of over 50% Pretty obvious you dont.

What makes a winning team? When players are put in the roles that best suit their games. You have one of the elite frontcourt scores in the game and you want to take the ball out of his hands. It just doesnt make sense. You can throw around Amare apologist or Melo haters or any crap you want. This is fundamental basketball and the player's history on this roster suggests this.

I'm with you but would like to add I wish it was that easy to tell a guy to be the next KG. On top of why you said it would be nice for Amar'e to get 25 on 54%, I'd like to see him revert to prior form because that's the player he is when he's performing at his best. But, then again, it would be really nice if Amar'e would play like Dirk. We could use a stretch 4

2 years ago I think most of us were pretty suprised by the range of Amare's jumper. That is the thing that will expand his offense. Just like it did for Ewing. That will continue to get better. Another example is Kurt Thomas...

KG is an MVP (2 time?). Before last year Amare was a top 10 player, but not an MVP caliber. Lets just call it like we see it shall we?

Its as simple as this: If you want to maximize the impact of this roster you feed Amare the ball. Having him play better D and doing the little things is great, for Knick opponents. Please.. If I am playing the Knicks PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE lets see Amare get 17 points and "do the little things." What a joke. Lets see the guy who dropped 25 on you.

Lets put this in perspective. Here are the players who have scored 20ppg on 50% shooting or greater:
2011 - Lebron, Aldridge, Blake Griffin, David Lee
2010 - Lebron, Amare, Dirk, Wade, Griffin, Dwight, Aldridge, Zach
2009 - Lebron, Amare, Bosh, David Lee
2008 - Chris Paul, Tony Parker
2007 - Amare, Boozer, Al Jefferson, Dwight
2006 - Dirk, Amare, Boozer, Brand, Duncan
2005 - Brand, Bosh, Marion, KG, Gasol
2004 - Amare, Shaq, KG, Brand
2003 - Duncan, Shaq
2002 - Shaq, Duncan, KG

Its been done 40 times in the last 10 years. In those 40 times only 3 of them came from players on losing teams (Lee x2 and Al Jefferson).

This type of scoring = winning basketball. The math should be that hard to digest

I agree with you 100 percent. I was just trying to highlight the absurdity of saying that player X should be "the next KG" or "the next Dirk" or player Y should become "the next Duncan"

I mean, Amar'e hitting that three to beat Boston that left his hand after time expired so the Knicks didn't win is a great example of his range being far greater than anticipated. that shot came out of nowhere

Supreme forget about offense for a second. Amare is a terrific scorer. It's in his DNA. Focus on D.

fair enough... I'm with you on the premise that we need Amar'e's D and rebounding to be better. i would just phrase it differently because there's only one KG

I'd settle for Amar'e reinventing himself the way Larry Johnson reinvented himself. Timely offense and a pitbull on D

Not comparing him to KG, just in the sacrifice it takes to win in this league. Bosh was the man scoring 24/gm in Toronto. Now he's in the high teens, sometimes, literally the 3rd or 4th option it seems on offense. We need Amare not to get frustrated if the offense doesn't run through him. Bosh is known as a poor shot blocker for his career, but in the NBA Finals you see him block Kevin Durant and Nick Collison consecutively in a key sequence in the 4th quarter. It's all about sacrifice. And forget about Amare fitting with Tyson and vice versa, let Woodson and Kidd worry about that on offense. If memory serves me right, KG was able to win a chip with Kendrick Perkins, Duncan with Robinson, Pau with Bynum, Dirk with Tyson. That whole argument of them playing together is moot, unless you're worried about offensive stats.

Dirk won a title with Tyson? Gee... I wonder if Rick Carlisle said "Dirk... stop scoring and focus on D. What I really need you to do is the little things."

Sorry dude.. Amare brings something to the table thats just as important as ANY other aspect of the game. Keep ignoring it

Listen, we all know Amare can score. That isn't a question. The real question is are you going to continue to ignore Amare's defense or lack of? They played a great defensive scheme in Dallas, played alot of zone against Miami, which hid alot of Dirk's defensive deficiencies. If that's what they have to do to cover up Amare on D, then I'm all for it. But until then, I'm pretty sure Woody is more into holding each and every player accountable for their man on defense. So, are you going to continue giving Amare a free pass, or will you look at the big picture instead?

Im not ignoring anything.

The big picture is ALL Im looking at.

Every player has deficiencies. If you have a scorer who can give you 20+ppg and shoot over 50% that is a very rare commodity, and you build AROUND that commodity.

The list of players who score 20ppg at over 50% is very small. If you add good defense to that you have a list of the best players in NBA history. Shaq, Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson, Duncan (only did it twice), etc etc

I do not expect that from Amare. Does that make me an apologist? No.. it makes you a hater which is pretty clear.

I do know that team with Amare as the featured scorer was 28-25 in the playoffs in the West and that was NOBODY playing defense except Marion and Raja Bell.

So no... no apologies needed. Before talking about a title lets win a playoff series first yea?

How can we if Amare keeps letting his guy and the other 4 guys on the other team score?