misterearl wrote:Would Chris Paul and Carmelo Anthony be a problem? This is a NON issue manufactured to sell newspapers. Notice how Marc Berman mentions the salary of the two stars to stir the pot. I smell resentment.

Chris Paul is not leaving LA and besides with the inflated contract we gave Chandler we can't afford him now anyway unless Melo and someone else are willing to restructure their deals... Your point is moot since we'll never see them play together anyway

Theotherheath wrote:Melo is not a fit in NY period.

How can you come to an absolute conclusion yet? Melo is definitely not a point forward in the LeBron role and it's clear that he does not fit this role, which the Knicks have been forced into because of lack of PG. Last season Melo and Chauncy came into NY without practice time and with Chauncey almost immediately getting hurt. Was there really a chance for Melo, Chauncey, Amare to gel within that time? Bosh, LeBron, Wade couldn't do it at the beginning of the season after full training camp and preseason. I think the expectation that our big 3 would succeed and fit together would be rather small. And this season? No PG and the whole team looks like caca; so is it Melo or the PG/system? Seems like Lin has the system going, so one can certainly point to lack of PG being at least one of the problems.

Theotherheath wrote:I love how Chandler is playing but we need to sweeten the deal and paying a guy 54 Mill to come off the bench would be stupid. Trading the ball hog for Howard gives us the best center in the league, a man that can score twenty a night without demanding the ball, and dominates on the defensive end. Amare will be able to return to his game because even though Howard is a force inside he's willing to clear out for amare and then ballhawk the offensive board for put backs. 

Howard willing to clear out for Amare? No. Howard is a post player. He will not clear out for anyone. How does a PnR PF player and post player without wing skills work together? Amare will be regulated to jump shooting. I think Melo-Amare compliment each of better; Melo has an outside game, a slashing game.

Next, let's check out an few article from this past week:

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/12/dwight-howard-goes-on-rant-about-fourth-quarter-touches-even-after-the-magic-win/

The crux of this article: even after a win Howard is complaining because someone else on his team got the ball when he was struggling and got points.

Howard is complaining… after a win! His team won! Jason Richardson won the game for the Magic by going nutso in the second half! Howard talks all this year about how he needs help, he just wants to win, he wants to have better teammates. Now he’s mad because he didn’t get the ball enough in the fourth quarter, when they won, and his teammates step up.

Theotherheath wrote:Getting rid of Melo and Chandler's bulky contracts would clear room to pick up both Wilson Chandler and JR Smith - at least for the remainder of the season! Imagine a starting five of Dwight Howard, Amar'e Stoudamire, Wilson Chandler, JR Smith, and Jeremy Lin! Davis, Douglas, fields, Shumpert, etc. all available off the bench.

This is factually incorrect. Blatantly false. If you trade Melo, Chandler, you have to take back as much contract $'s. So, TurkeyGlue coming back. Signing anyone outside of JR Smith with the room exception is not possible. Also, if you knew how restricted free agency worked, you would know that Wilson Chandler's right are owned by Denver.

Theotherheath wrote:And the final reason to get Howard for mister offensive black hole is because if Lin ends up being a flash in the pan there's always Deron Williams available at the end of the year. Another player seeking the NY stage, and a team rocking Howard and Amar'e would be difficult to pass up.

Nope, can't do Deron either, especially if you consider TurkeyGlue coming to Knicks. The Knicks would be over the cap.

Theotherheath wrote:Bottom line Melo needs to go! His inflated ego forced the Knicks to trade away everything they were missing this season. A starting point guard that was a maestro at directing d'antoni's offense, a solid scorer that could play the two or three, an Italian sharp shooter, and a back up center with huge potential. He forced the Knicks to trade away the core of the team when he KNEW he'd be a Knick anyway at the end of the year. He could've joined a team that had all the parts in place, but instead he demanded the limelight - fed off the drama of the trade - and forced the Knick's hand. Why would you cripple the team you want to play for?? Can anyone fathom that? 

Melo destroyed the Knicks long before stepping on the hardwood floor at the Garden. We should've seen his inability to be a team player when he dismantled the Knicks single handedly. He's a one man show. Just ask Denver! The only reason Orlando will take him is because they'd be getting two all stars under long term deals to put people in the seats.

Do the deal!!!

Melo's ego is only eclipsed by Howard's ego. You see how he is treating both his teammates as well his organization?

Bonn1997 wrote:

MaTT4281 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

WindsorPl wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:Thread is pure comedy.

Bulls are like 5-1 without Derrick Rose. Doesn't mean the Bulls don't need Rose.

Melo is the Knicks best player. Suggesting Melo adjust is like telling Lebron to adjust his game for Norris Cole.

Knicks are not the Bulls nor the Heat. Look at the records. If they were, we would not be having this discussion.
Being best player on 8-15 team is not much to brag about.

Miami won six straight without Wade...Maybe they should release him

Yeah, but they win a lot of games *with* him too (same with the Bulls and Rose, Anu). It's not Wade or Rose went down and then the trajectory of their franchise turned around.

So in your mind, the recent win streak is a result of Melo sitting instead of the emergence of Jeremy Lin?

Why are you presenting them as mutually exclusive explanations?

He's kind of a big variable to ignore. His addition alone balances out our roster significantly. Think we have success with a roster of:

Shump/Bibby/TD
Fields
Walker/Novak
JJ
Tyson

Hell, throw Amar'e in there too if you'd like. We don't win this many with the same roster sans Melo. Lin gives us a leg to stand on. Doesn't mean Melo doesn't fill other needs.

Theotherheath wrote:

MaTT4281 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

WindsorPl wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:Thread is pure comedy.

Bulls are like 5-1 without Derrick Rose. Doesn't mean the Bulls don't need Rose.

Melo is the Knicks best player. Suggesting Melo adjust is like telling Lebron to adjust his game for Norris Cole.

Knicks are not the Bulls nor the Heat. Look at the records. If they were, we would not be having this discussion.
Being best player on 8-15 team is not much to brag about.

Miami won six straight without Wade...Maybe they should release him

Yeah, but they win a lot of games *with* him too (same with the Bulls and Rose, Anu). It's not Wade or Rose went down and then the trajectory of their franchise turned around.

So in your mind, the recent win streak is a result of Melo sitting instead of the emergence of Jeremy Lin?

It's an obvious culmination of both... Lin wouldn't have emerged with Melo in the lineup... Amar'e has already proven he can let a great point guard make his game better... Anyone hear of a guard named Steve Nash?

Lin didn't emerge in the NJ game? Melo played 35 minutes that game.

Lin has something in common with Steve Nash, he's been making his teammates better. Why do so many people think he can't make Melo better? This isn't about Lin controlling the offense vs. Melo controlling the offense. This is about Lin and Melo playing together and playing off each other. These guys are a TEAM in every sense of the word, and they want to win. Melo included.

Theotherheath wrote:

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:The OP is asking "God" to make a trade.

Dolan made the trade to bring him in.

We must deduct that "God" is Dolan and he is asking Dolan to make another deal?

God spelled backwards is "Dog", and Dolan Backwards is "Nalod".

Just saying........

Dolan is the worst owner ever!! See the isaih years and every coaching decision since van gundy. He hired Walsh because he's a basketball genius than refused to listen to him about not pulling off the Melo trade... Walsh is laughing his ass off at Dolan and the Knicks.

why are you dodging martin's post as well as the one where gymkata asked you to provide quotes where amear said he was unhappy about the melo acquisition?

Theotherheath wrote:

Gymkata wrote:

Theotherheath wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:Thread is pure comedy.

Bulls are like 5-1 without Derrick Rose. Doesn't mean the Bulls don't need Rose.

Melo is the Knicks best player. Suggesting Melo adjust is like telling Lebron to adjust his game for Norris Cole.

Amar'e is the best all around player... He already proved it last year by carrying the Knicks on his back. Something Melo brought to an end once he cane over.

I love Amare, but what's the standard for "proving it" again? Carrying a team on his back...to a record of two games over .500? Did Melo bring that to an end or did the fact that we lost half our team have something to do with it? An argument can certainly be made that too much was given up in the trade, but I just can't understand this thinking that once Carmelo showed up the world imploded.

I'm sorry did you watch the nicks before Amar'e came? He rejuvenated an entire city, and a franchise that was great even when it was losing before Ewing and before Isaih destroyed it. And yes we gave up too much because we didn't have to give up ANYTHING!! Why is no one seeing this point? Melo forced that trade!! He and he alone forced us to send away a nucleus that Walsh put together and had HUGE potential when Melo was coming here regardless.. It's insane how dense you "knick's fans" are when half of you won't concede that glaringly obvious point

My man, you move more goalposts than the ground crew at MetLife Stadium. You said:

Theotherheath wrote:Amar'e is the best all around player... He already proved it last year by carrying the Knicks on his back. Something Melo brought to an end once he cane over.

I simply asked you to define what "proving it" meant to you because, if you recall, the Amare-centric Knicks were barely over .500 when the trade went down, and that was with Amare --who, again, I am giant fan of--playing absolutely out of his mind.

And, sorry are you saying that Patrick Ewing destroyed the Knicks? Please tell me that's just your spastic sentence structure...

Theotherheath wrote:Look at Amar'e in every interview before we got Melo. It's not hard to read a smile from ear to ear! Then look post Melo... It doesn't take a psych major to recognize he wasn't as happy... He was the man before the trade with the entire city if new York chanting MVP! Of course he's not going to outright say it... Why would he do that.. I believe his play since getting Melo speaks for itself. He might as well be herb Williams since Melo got here. And the only reason the market dictated we pay Chandler so much considering he was basically a straight up defensive player until this season was because Golden state drove up the price. Dallas, the team he just helped win a title weren't even willing to match that price, but Dolan throws money around at players because he thinks he's Steinbrenner... See Jerome James!!!

nixluva wrote:

Theotherheath wrote:Lin is a surprise to everyone... Before he played LA Kobe admitted he'd never even heard of him... What happens when teams can actually prepare for him, and everyone knows his game... Are you all truly expecting someone that was cut by countless teams to still perform when teams know what's coming? I pray that Lin can rise to the occasion and be consistent, but I don't want to put my hopes on a guy that was barely a twelfth man before last week.

Defenses have already been adjusting to what Lin does. It's more a function of Lin and this system creating a very hard to stop offensive attack. It's not impossible to take away a PG's penetration but you will sacrifice something in the process and that's why it's so hard to stop this offense when you have a PG that can read it and make a smart counter to what they're doing.

Also MDA keeps adding more twists to what Lin can do out there. Now that MDA has a PG that can learn and run his plays. He doesn't have to hold back. We haven't seen ANYTHING yet. There are over 100 plays in his system and we've only seen rudimentary stuff cuz we didn't have a PG!!! Remember when TD forgot the play coming at the end of a game off a time out. Then compare that to what Lin did getting the ball to Novak for the 3 in the last game!!!

Theotherheath wrote:Also, everyone seems to be missing the other pieces we'd be able to add without Melo. Namely JR Smith and Wilson Chandler (who never should've traded in the first place). ALSO how is no one holding Melo accountable for ripping the Knicks apart when he knew he was coming here anyway!!! See his wife's reality show negotiations prior to the trade if you don't believe it.

This is really not important anymore. The deal is done and this is the team we have. The Knicks have drafted well and our young players are getting better. The guys we gave up are not as good as Melo. Melo is here to give us a proven Closer. No one is better at closing a game than Melo. This is a fact!!!

Theotherheath wrote:If he can prove himself a team player... Great!! Otherwise the only other way Melo, stat, and Lin can co-exist is if you bring in Phil Jackson and put those three in the triangle. Melo is a one trick pony... Great offense, average rebounder, and poor defender. If you disagree you should check your mancrush at the door.

This is a difficult thing for me to refute since we haven't really had them play together much. Still when they did play together, it looked pretty good!!! They haven't had a chance to practice together, but that will happen and you have no idea how that will develop since you haven't seen what they look like after working on it together either!!! So let's see how they mesh over time. We've got a good amount of game left to see them work together.

Their one game together against the Nets with Lin off the bench.

STARTERS 	      MIN 	FGM-A 	3PM-A 	FTM-A 	REB 	AST 	STL 	BLK	+/- 	PTS
C Anthony, SF	      35	3-15	1-3	4-4	3	3	1	1	-2	11
A Stoudemire, PF      25	6-11	0-0	5-5	5	0	0	1       +11	17
T Chandler, C	      36	7-9	0-0	3-4	9	2	0	1	-1	17
L Fields, G	      22	3-8	0-2	0-0	5	1	1	0	-13	6
I Shumpert, G	      25	1-5	0-0	0-0	5	2	0	0	+5	2
Jared Jeffries, PF    31	4-10	0-1	1-1	10	2	0       1       +6	9
Renaldo Balkman, PF    2	0-0	0-0	0-0	1	0	0       0       -1	0
Toney Douglas, PG     13	2-5	0-3	1-1	4	2	0       0       +9	5
Jeremy Lin, PG	      36	10-19	0-4	5-7	5	7	2	0       +13	25
Bill Walker, SG	      15	1-1	1-1	4-4	1	1	1	1       +8	7

Your stat sheet helps make my point since Melo shot the ball 3-15... Wouldn't an allstar and team leader taken a few less shots and gotten the ball to people that were hitting at a better clip? According to your stats both Chandler and Amar'e were shooting better yet Melo took more shots... If these numbers are correct Amar'e was 5-5 on threes! Why the hell wouldn't you give him more shots if your game is off? That's Melo's problem in a nutshell. The inability to make his teammates better. Do you think Jordan or bird would've forced up shots if someone else was shooing better? Winners do what it takes to win; even if that means taking the back seat when someone is hot!

People are missing the ultimate point which is if Melo can change his game to fit the system.. Great!!! If he comes back and we're horrible again why not improve the team with great role players - and I date anyone to say Wilson wasn't great for us when we were atrocious. And throw in the best 15-20 guy since Barkley or Malone.

martin wrote:so it's time to set this topic and opening post straight

Theotherheath wrote:Melo is not a fit in NY period.

How can you come to an absolute conclusion yet? Melo is definitely not a point forward in the LeBron role and it's clear that he does not fit this role, which the Knicks have been forced into because of lack of PG. Last season Melo and Chauncy came into NY without practice time and with Chauncey almost immediately getting hurt. Was there really a chance for Melo, Chauncey, Amare to gel within that time? Bosh, LeBron, Wade couldn't do it at the beginning of the season after full training camp and preseason. I think the expectation that our big 3 would succeed and fit together would be rather small. And this season? No PG and the whole team looks like caca; so is it Melo or the PG/system? Seems like Lin has the system going, so one can certainly point to lack of PG being at least one of the problems.

Theotherheath wrote:I love how Chandler is playing but we need to sweeten the deal and paying a guy 54 Mill to come off the bench would be stupid. Trading the ball hog for Howard gives us the best center in the league, a man that can score twenty a night without demanding the ball, and dominates on the defensive end. Amare will be able to return to his game because even though Howard is a force inside he's willing to clear out for amare and then ballhawk the offensive board for put backs. 

Howard willing to clear out for Amare? No. Howard is a post player. He will not clear out for anyone. How does a PnR PF player and post player without wing skills work together? Amare will be regulated to jump shooting. I think Melo-Amare compliment each of better; Melo has an outside game, a slashing game.

Next, let's check out an few article from this past week:

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/12/dwight-howard-goes-on-rant-about-fourth-quarter-touches-even-after-the-magic-win/

The crux of this article: even after a win Howard is complaining because someone else on his team got the ball when he was struggling and got points.

Howard is complaining… after a win! His team won! Jason Richardson won the game for the Magic by going nutso in the second half! Howard talks all this year about how he needs help, he just wants to win, he wants to have better teammates. Now he’s mad because he didn’t get the ball enough in the fourth quarter, when they won, and his teammates step up.

Theotherheath wrote:Getting rid of Melo and Chandler's bulky contracts would clear room to pick up both Wilson Chandler and JR Smith - at least for the remainder of the season! Imagine a starting five of Dwight Howard, Amar'e Stoudamire, Wilson Chandler, JR Smith, and Jeremy Lin! Davis, Douglas, fields, Shumpert, etc. all available off the bench.

This is factually incorrect. Blatantly false. If you trade Melo, Chandler, you have to take back as much contract $'s. So, TurkeyGlue coming back. Signing anyone outside of JR Smith with the room exception is not possible. Also, if you knew how restricted free agency worked, you would know that Wilson Chandler's right are owned by Denver.

Theotherheath wrote:And the final reason to get Howard for mister offensive black hole is because if Lin ends up being a flash in the pan there's always Deron Williams available at the end of the year. Another player seeking the NY stage, and a team rocking Howard and Amar'e would be difficult to pass up.

Nope, can't do Deron either, especially if you consider TurkeyGlue coming to Knicks. The Knicks would be over the cap.

Theotherheath wrote:Bottom line Melo needs to go! His inflated ego forced the Knicks to trade away everything they were missing this season. A starting point guard that was a maestro at directing d'antoni's offense, a solid scorer that could play the two or three, an Italian sharp shooter, and a back up center with huge potential. He forced the Knicks to trade away the core of the team when he KNEW he'd be a Knick anyway at the end of the year. He could've joined a team that had all the parts in place, but instead he demanded the limelight - fed off the drama of the trade - and forced the Knick's hand. Why would you cripple the team you want to play for?? Can anyone fathom that? 

Melo destroyed the Knicks long before stepping on the hardwood floor at the Garden. We should've seen his inability to be a team player when he dismantled the Knicks single handedly. He's a one man show. Just ask Denver! The only reason Orlando will take him is because they'd be getting two all stars under long term deals to put people in the seats.

Do the deal!!!

Melo's ego is only eclipsed by Howard's ego. You see how he is treating both his teammates as well his organization?

Melo has played with Miller, inversion, and billups so
Obviously good pg's don't raise his game. Oh yeah and we wouldn't have needed a point guard I he didn't force the trade that sent Felton to Denver. Felton look like an allstar in mda's system... But since he had to play games and force a deal we ended up with no point guard for a third of this season. Again you miss the point that he forced a team HE WAS GOING TO to dismantle for no reason.

The Knicks have stated an interest in signing Chandler and he said "he'd love a return to NY." even if we paid him in chicken gyros he'd be a knick, and no matter where he or smith sign it's going to be for the minimum. Both want to play in new York and the difference between Chandler and Melo's contracts and Howard's would be available. Even if Dolan had to eat a few million their contracts shouldn't count against our cap.

WTH is turkey glue? How couldn't they afford deron when they'd be getting rid of an 83 million dollar contract and a 54 million dollar contract? Plus the millions we gave to one year deal this off season... You're telling me 140 mill wouldn't be enough to sign them?

Gymkata wrote:

Theotherheath wrote:

Gymkata wrote:

Theotherheath wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:Thread is pure comedy.

Bulls are like 5-1 without Derrick Rose. Doesn't mean the Bulls don't need Rose.

Melo is the Knicks best player. Suggesting Melo adjust is like telling Lebron to adjust his game for Norris Cole.

Amar'e is the best all around player... He already proved it last year by carrying the Knicks on his back. Something Melo brought to an end once he cane over.

I love Amare, but what's the standard for "proving it" again? Carrying a team on his back...to a record of two games over .500? Did Melo bring that to an end or did the fact that we lost half our team have something to do with it? An argument can certainly be made that too much was given up in the trade, but I just can't understand this thinking that once Carmelo showed up the world imploded.

I'm sorry did you watch the nicks before Amar'e came? He rejuvenated an entire city, and a franchise that was great even when it was losing before Ewing and before Isaih destroyed it. And yes we gave up too much because we didn't have to give up ANYTHING!! Why is no one seeing this point? Melo forced that trade!! He and he alone forced us to send away a nucleus that Walsh put together and had HUGE potential when Melo was coming here regardless.. It's insane how dense you "knick's fans" are when half of you won't concede that glaringly obvious point

My man, you move more goalposts than the ground crew at MetLife Stadium. You said:

Theotherheath wrote:Amar'e is the best all around player... He already proved it last year by carrying the Knicks on his back. Something Melo brought to an end once he cane over.

I simply asked you to define what "proving it" meant to you because, if you recall, the Amare-centric Knicks were barely over .500 when the trade went down, and that was with Amare --who, again, I am giant fan of--playing absolutely out of his mind.

And, sorry are you saying that Patrick Ewing destroyed the Knicks? Please tell me that's just your spastic sentence structure...

Losing BEFORE EWING ... Read closer... We were awful before Ewing.. Do you disagree, and we we aful after Isaih. Am I wrong... It's a forum... Who worries about proper English in a forum or are you trying to get publishers to follow you? And YES we were a barely above fiv hundred team but that was with Amar'e leading a bunch of good role-players that would've caused some damage against the right team in the playoffs and could've learned to be even better with Melo the next season if he DIDN'T FORCE THEM TO GUT THE TEAM!!!

Theotherheath wrote:Melo has played with Miller, inversion, and billups so
Obviously good pg's don't raise his game. Oh yeah and we wouldn't have needed a point guard I he didn't force the trade that sent Felton to Denver. Felton look like an allstar in mda's system... But since he had to play games and force a deal we ended up with no point guard for a third of this season. Again you miss the point that he forced a team HE WAS GOING TO to dismantle for no reason.

The Knicks have stated an interest in signing Chandler and he said "he'd love a return to NY." even if we paid him in chicken gyros he'd be a knick, and no matter where he or smith sign it's going to be for the minimum. Both want to play in new York and the difference between Chandler and Melo's contracts and Howard's would be available. Even if Dolan had to eat a few million their contracts shouldn't count against our cap.

WTH is turkey glue? How couldn't they afford deron when they'd be getting rid of an 83 million dollar contract and a 54 million dollar contract? Plus the millions we gave to one year deal this off season... You're telling me 140 mill wouldn't be enough to sign them?

right. So it's pretty clear that you may want to read up on a lot of topics and consider your points more closely. Stay tuned, keep up and perhaps back off on being so absolute.

You missed about a dozen points in my post, and you still have too many factual errors and argument errors in your own. I'd suggest reading more and taking your time responding.