Bippity10 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:So if D'Antoni is supposedly known for not changing his style(even though our offense looks nothing like 7 seconds or less), then why would you hire him if you are going in a differetn direction. And if you are not going in a different direction then why wouldn't you get him the types of players that he was successful with in Phoenix? the reality is taht Walsh thought he could win with his style. Walsh went out and got players that fit his style. We had a young squad that started to gel and was on the way up. The owner and new managemetn decided that wasn't a good plan and decided to gut the team and get players that now don't match the coach. Thus continuing the neverending NY Knicks, never going to win a championship, plan of pitting front office against coach. Why do so many Knick fans love this perpetual losing approach?

Stop comparing D'Antoni to Riley etc. Riley was a hall of fame coach. We don't have a hall of fame coach. If we fire that coach we most likely are not going to hire a hall of fame coach. So our job is to hire a good/great coach(like Lenny Wilkens was, like LB was, like D'Antoni is) and provide them with as much support as we can. To get them the players they want to build their teams. Why would we not do that? Hirign a coach, and then signing players that don't match his style and then demanding that the coach change his approach is a ridiculously stupid approach. Why is no one up in arms at management for doing so. In my view, they are the ones that should be on the hot seat. It's a stupid approach and they better have Phil Jackson in their back pocket. IF not you will see this cycle continue. Next coach will be hired. When we start losing again and firings are expected the front office will again throw the next coach under the bus and end the next coaching career

As for Mike Fratello. Who cares if he adjusted. He hasn't won more than 50 games since 1989, was 2-18 in his last 20 playoff games and has a career playoff winning percentage of .323. My advice to Fratello would have been to stick with one style that works instead of trying to be like Pat Riley. You aren't Pat Riley so don't try to be like him. I don't want' D'Antoni to try to be like him either. I want my front office to support him and get him the players he needs or to be patient while he learns a new style or fire him, bring in a new coach that mathces the players we have and then for once, support him and get him the players he needs. Stop this ridiculous front office vs. coach nonsense

Lastly, Phil Jackson has not changed his style. He has however always had the leagues best player and great management that bends over backwards to get him what he needs. How would Phil do if we hired him, then gutted his roster 3 times in 3 year snad finally settled on a all 25 and under line-up of non passing athletes taht can't grasp the triangle?

I don't think anyone is comparing D'Antoni to Riley. I think the Riley's name comes up because he went from coaching Showtime to the Knicks and didn't try and have the Knicks play Showtime ball. It was in response to this from Knicks1248.

I want you to name me one coach in this league( as far back as i could remember) that doesn't mold he's team into his style..

That is also why Fratello was brought up. He coached a totally different style in Atlanta as opposed to Cleveland.

I think you missed my point. I know why they were brought up, I'm explaining why it's not relevant. Pat Riley adjusted because he is one of the greatest coaches of all-time and he had the ability to do so. Not everyone is Pat Riley and has the ability to switch on a dime. You can still win with those coaches if you support them and get them the players you need. We know D'Antoni is not Riley so why would we not get him the players he needs. Why would we fill his roster iwth guys that do not fit his style and then demand he change? What type of organization does that? Answer, a bad one.

As for fratello. Fratello switched his style. He was also not as successful as D'Antoni and had a horrendous playoff record(losing 18 of his 20 playoff games), so why does it matter if he changed his style?

I guess it matters if someone says no one does it. My initial response also noted that D'Antoni chose the job where he wasn't being asked to change but where he also would have the roster that was least suited to his style.

I'm confused. D'Antoni chose a job where he knew they would have to gut the team and then would be given a roster that would fit his style (We can't prove this but judging by the roster Walsh gave him and the amount of input he had in to decisions this was the case). That team with Chandler and Gallo and Stoudemire was exactly suited for D'Antoni. D'Antoni had direct repsonsibility for some of those moves. Then Dolan stepped in, cleared the trade for Melo and gutted the team again. Then Walsh quit. Now we are back to doing the exact same things we did before Walsh got here, and as long as D'Antoni is fired all the fans will be satisfied until it's time to fire and ruin the reputation of the next jerkoff coach. Rinse, cycle, repeat.

Let me ask it this way. Do you think that Phil Jackson is going to ever sign here, if he is not guaranteed to get the type of team he wants?????? Do you think if we turn to PJ and say "We are going to fill the roster with who we want. YOu shut up and accept it. If we give you a bunch of idiots taht can't run the triangle offense then you need to scrap it and come up with a new style like Pat Riley and Mike Fratello would do". Do you think he would ever come here under those circumsstances??? Isn't that exactly what we just did to Mike?

The thing is that PJax might actually have the clout to get Dolan to make the correct moves for his type of personel.

If PJax was the coach and he did NOT want the Melo trade, do you think it gets done? I think not. Maybe I am giving Dolan (or Jax) too much credit but I actually believe this. PJax has a don't mess with me personality. And, I think that is what we need here.

There is only 2 guys in this league and that is Riley and Jackson.

Bippity10 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:So if D'Antoni is supposedly known for not changing his style(even though our offense looks nothing like 7 seconds or less), then why would you hire him if you are going in a differetn direction. And if you are not going in a different direction then why wouldn't you get him the types of players that he was successful with in Phoenix? the reality is taht Walsh thought he could win with his style. Walsh went out and got players that fit his style. We had a young squad that started to gel and was on the way up. The owner and new managemetn decided that wasn't a good plan and decided to gut the team and get players that now don't match the coach. Thus continuing the neverending NY Knicks, never going to win a championship, plan of pitting front office against coach. Why do so many Knick fans love this perpetual losing approach?

Stop comparing D'Antoni to Riley etc. Riley was a hall of fame coach. We don't have a hall of fame coach. If we fire that coach we most likely are not going to hire a hall of fame coach. So our job is to hire a good/great coach(like Lenny Wilkens was, like LB was, like D'Antoni is) and provide them with as much support as we can. To get them the players they want to build their teams. Why would we not do that? Hirign a coach, and then signing players that don't match his style and then demanding that the coach change his approach is a ridiculously stupid approach. Why is no one up in arms at management for doing so. In my view, they are the ones that should be on the hot seat. It's a stupid approach and they better have Phil Jackson in their back pocket. IF not you will see this cycle continue. Next coach will be hired. When we start losing again and firings are expected the front office will again throw the next coach under the bus and end the next coaching career

As for Mike Fratello. Who cares if he adjusted. He hasn't won more than 50 games since 1989, was 2-18 in his last 20 playoff games and has a career playoff winning percentage of .323. My advice to Fratello would have been to stick with one style that works instead of trying to be like Pat Riley. You aren't Pat Riley so don't try to be like him. I don't want' D'Antoni to try to be like him either. I want my front office to support him and get him the players he needs or to be patient while he learns a new style or fire him, bring in a new coach that mathces the players we have and then for once, support him and get him the players he needs. Stop this ridiculous front office vs. coach nonsense

Lastly, Phil Jackson has not changed his style. He has however always had the leagues best player and great management that bends over backwards to get him what he needs. How would Phil do if we hired him, then gutted his roster 3 times in 3 year snad finally settled on a all 25 and under line-up of non passing athletes taht can't grasp the triangle?

I don't think anyone is comparing D'Antoni to Riley. I think the Riley's name comes up because he went from coaching Showtime to the Knicks and didn't try and have the Knicks play Showtime ball. It was in response to this from Knicks1248.

I want you to name me one coach in this league( as far back as i could remember) that doesn't mold he's team into his style..

That is also why Fratello was brought up. He coached a totally different style in Atlanta as opposed to Cleveland.

I think you missed my point. I know why they were brought up, I'm explaining why it's not relevant. Pat Riley adjusted because he is one of the greatest coaches of all-time and he had the ability to do so. Not everyone is Pat Riley and has the ability to switch on a dime. You can still win with those coaches if you support them and get them the players you need. We know D'Antoni is not Riley so why would we not get him the players he needs. Why would we fill his roster iwth guys that do not fit his style and then demand he change? What type of organization does that? Answer, a bad one.

As for fratello. Fratello switched his style. He was also not as successful as D'Antoni and had a horrendous playoff record(losing 18 of his 20 playoff games), so why does it matter if he changed his style?

I guess it matters if someone says no one does it. My initial response also noted that D'Antoni chose the job where he wasn't being asked to change but where he also would have the roster that was least suited to his style.

I'm confused. D'Antoni chose a job where he knew they would have to gut the team and then would be given a roster that would fit his style (We can't prove this but judging by the roster Walsh gave him and the amount of input he had in to decisions this was the case). That team with Chandler and Gallo and Stoudemire was exactly suited for D'Antoni. D'Antoni had direct repsonsibility for some of those moves. Then Dolan stepped in, cleared the trade for Melo and gutted the team again. Then Walsh quit. Now we are back to doing the exact same things we did before Walsh got here, and as long as D'Antoni is fired all the fans will be satisfied until it's time to fire and ruin the reputation of the next jerkoff coach. Rinse, cycle, repeat.

Let me ask it this way. Do you think that Phil Jackson is going to ever sign here, if he is not guaranteed to get the type of team he wants?????? Do you think if we turn to PJ and say "We are going to fill the roster with who we want. YOu shut up and accept it. If we give you a bunch of idiots taht can't run the triangle offense then you need to scrap it and come up with a new style like Pat Riley and Mike Fratello would do". Do you think he would ever come here under those circumsstances??? Isn't that exactly what we just did to Mike?

I am sure Walsh shared his rebuilding plan but it wasn't to get Amare. However, I still think the Chicago situation was a much better one and in addition to already having a lot of talent, they also would be in position to pursue the same guy Walsh was after. If you are saying D'Antoni had the rug pulled out from under him by Dolan with the Melo trade and then the amnestying of Billups I agree. If you are saying the current roster wasn't built to support this coach I agree with that also. I guess the question is do you want to try and make trades and rebuild again around this coach or do you move on and see if someone with a different approach can find an effective way to get this frontline to dominate and win some games.

CrushAlot wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:So if D'Antoni is supposedly known for not changing his style(even though our offense looks nothing like 7 seconds or less), then why would you hire him if you are going in a differetn direction. And if you are not going in a different direction then why wouldn't you get him the types of players that he was successful with in Phoenix? the reality is taht Walsh thought he could win with his style. Walsh went out and got players that fit his style. We had a young squad that started to gel and was on the way up. The owner and new managemetn decided that wasn't a good plan and decided to gut the team and get players that now don't match the coach. Thus continuing the neverending NY Knicks, never going to win a championship, plan of pitting front office against coach. Why do so many Knick fans love this perpetual losing approach?

Stop comparing D'Antoni to Riley etc. Riley was a hall of fame coach. We don't have a hall of fame coach. If we fire that coach we most likely are not going to hire a hall of fame coach. So our job is to hire a good/great coach(like Lenny Wilkens was, like LB was, like D'Antoni is) and provide them with as much support as we can. To get them the players they want to build their teams. Why would we not do that? Hirign a coach, and then signing players that don't match his style and then demanding that the coach change his approach is a ridiculously stupid approach. Why is no one up in arms at management for doing so. In my view, they are the ones that should be on the hot seat. It's a stupid approach and they better have Phil Jackson in their back pocket. IF not you will see this cycle continue. Next coach will be hired. When we start losing again and firings are expected the front office will again throw the next coach under the bus and end the next coaching career

As for Mike Fratello. Who cares if he adjusted. He hasn't won more than 50 games since 1989, was 2-18 in his last 20 playoff games and has a career playoff winning percentage of .323. My advice to Fratello would have been to stick with one style that works instead of trying to be like Pat Riley. You aren't Pat Riley so don't try to be like him. I don't want' D'Antoni to try to be like him either. I want my front office to support him and get him the players he needs or to be patient while he learns a new style or fire him, bring in a new coach that mathces the players we have and then for once, support him and get him the players he needs. Stop this ridiculous front office vs. coach nonsense

Lastly, Phil Jackson has not changed his style. He has however always had the leagues best player and great management that bends over backwards to get him what he needs. How would Phil do if we hired him, then gutted his roster 3 times in 3 year snad finally settled on a all 25 and under line-up of non passing athletes taht can't grasp the triangle?

I don't think anyone is comparing D'Antoni to Riley. I think the Riley's name comes up because he went from coaching Showtime to the Knicks and didn't try and have the Knicks play Showtime ball. It was in response to this from Knicks1248.

I want you to name me one coach in this league( as far back as i could remember) that doesn't mold he's team into his style..

That is also why Fratello was brought up. He coached a totally different style in Atlanta as opposed to Cleveland.

I think you missed my point. I know why they were brought up, I'm explaining why it's not relevant. Pat Riley adjusted because he is one of the greatest coaches of all-time and he had the ability to do so. Not everyone is Pat Riley and has the ability to switch on a dime. You can still win with those coaches if you support them and get them the players you need. We know D'Antoni is not Riley so why would we not get him the players he needs. Why would we fill his roster iwth guys that do not fit his style and then demand he change? What type of organization does that? Answer, a bad one.

As for fratello. Fratello switched his style. He was also not as successful as D'Antoni and had a horrendous playoff record(losing 18 of his 20 playoff games), so why does it matter if he changed his style?

I guess it matters if someone says no one does it. My initial response also noted that D'Antoni chose the job where he wasn't being asked to change but where he also would have the roster that was least suited to his style.

I'm confused. D'Antoni chose a job where he knew they would have to gut the team and then would be given a roster that would fit his style (We can't prove this but judging by the roster Walsh gave him and the amount of input he had in to decisions this was the case). That team with Chandler and Gallo and Stoudemire was exactly suited for D'Antoni. D'Antoni had direct repsonsibility for some of those moves. Then Dolan stepped in, cleared the trade for Melo and gutted the team again. Then Walsh quit. Now we are back to doing the exact same things we did before Walsh got here, and as long as D'Antoni is fired all the fans will be satisfied until it's time to fire and ruin the reputation of the next jerkoff coach. Rinse, cycle, repeat.

Let me ask it this way. Do you think that Phil Jackson is going to ever sign here, if he is not guaranteed to get the type of team he wants?????? Do you think if we turn to PJ and say "We are going to fill the roster with who we want. YOu shut up and accept it. If we give you a bunch of idiots taht can't run the triangle offense then you need to scrap it and come up with a new style like Pat Riley and Mike Fratello would do". Do you think he would ever come here under those circumsstances??? Isn't that exactly what we just did to Mike?

So you are not confused that D'Antoni asked to find other employment when Sarver and Kerr asked him to change his approach? Your not confused that though it appeared D'Antoni was goinhg to choose Chicago over NY he balked when he was asked to adjust his style and went with NY where Walsh offered to take him as is? So I don't think you are confused about my response making the point that D'Antoni didn't want to change his style.

I am sure Walsh shared his rebuilding plan but it wasn't to get Amare. However, I still think the Chicago situation was a much better one and in addition to already having a lot of talent, they also would be in position to pursue the same guy Walsh was after. If you are saying D'Antoni had the rug pulled out from under him by Dolan with the Melo trade and then the amnestying of Billups I agree. If you are saying the current roster wasn't built to support this coach I agree with that also. I guess the question is do you want to try and make trades and rebuild again around this coach or do you move on and see if someone with a different approach can find an effective way to get this frontline to dominate and win some games.

#1-That is what I'm saying. Only dumb organizations hire a coach and then ask him to change his style. That's the point of the interview proces. GM has a philosophy of winning. Hires a coach that has the same philosophy and a style that supports that philosoophy. We seem to have no philosophy. Interview a coach. Think he's worht a hire. Hire him. Gut the roster. Replace it with players that don't match that coaches style. Then demand that that coach change his style. What kind of lunacy is that? Yes, I do feel that the rug was pulled out from under him. We knew what we were getting.

#2-We have painted ourselves in a corner. We have two choices. We back him 10000 percent, give him the benefit of finally having a completed roster for more than 4 months. A training camp. And a PG. And show some patience(which of course this organization that wins titles every other year doesn't seem to have). Or we need to do what we are about to do. Fire him. Hire an interim coach. Pray that interim coach is respected. Pray we support that interim coach long enough(without all the Phil Jackson rumors that will undermine him and ruin our season). Pray a PG comes back. Pray that Phil Jackson decides to come here. If he does not, we are stuck with Woodson, who has a career .419 win percentage(great alternative) or some other sucker who hopefully will be supported for once, or in 2 years we will be calling for his head to.

#3-If we keep doing this, no one is going to want to coach here and we will be lucky to get the also ran coaches.

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:So if D'Antoni is supposedly known for not changing his style(even though our offense looks nothing like 7 seconds or less), then why would you hire him if you are going in a differetn direction. And if you are not going in a different direction then why wouldn't you get him the types of players that he was successful with in Phoenix? the reality is taht Walsh thought he could win with his style. Walsh went out and got players that fit his style. We had a young squad that started to gel and was on the way up. The owner and new managemetn decided that wasn't a good plan and decided to gut the team and get players that now don't match the coach. Thus continuing the neverending NY Knicks, never going to win a championship, plan of pitting front office against coach. Why do so many Knick fans love this perpetual losing approach?

Stop comparing D'Antoni to Riley etc. Riley was a hall of fame coach. We don't have a hall of fame coach. If we fire that coach we most likely are not going to hire a hall of fame coach. So our job is to hire a good/great coach(like Lenny Wilkens was, like LB was, like D'Antoni is) and provide them with as much support as we can. To get them the players they want to build their teams. Why would we not do that? Hirign a coach, and then signing players that don't match his style and then demanding that the coach change his approach is a ridiculously stupid approach. Why is no one up in arms at management for doing so. In my view, they are the ones that should be on the hot seat. It's a stupid approach and they better have Phil Jackson in their back pocket. IF not you will see this cycle continue. Next coach will be hired. When we start losing again and firings are expected the front office will again throw the next coach under the bus and end the next coaching career

As for Mike Fratello. Who cares if he adjusted. He hasn't won more than 50 games since 1989, was 2-18 in his last 20 playoff games and has a career playoff winning percentage of .323. My advice to Fratello would have been to stick with one style that works instead of trying to be like Pat Riley. You aren't Pat Riley so don't try to be like him. I don't want' D'Antoni to try to be like him either. I want my front office to support him and get him the players he needs or to be patient while he learns a new style or fire him, bring in a new coach that mathces the players we have and then for once, support him and get him the players he needs. Stop this ridiculous front office vs. coach nonsense

Lastly, Phil Jackson has not changed his style. He has however always had the leagues best player and great management that bends over backwards to get him what he needs. How would Phil do if we hired him, then gutted his roster 3 times in 3 year snad finally settled on a all 25 and under line-up of non passing athletes taht can't grasp the triangle?

I don't think anyone is comparing D'Antoni to Riley. I think the Riley's name comes up because he went from coaching Showtime to the Knicks and didn't try and have the Knicks play Showtime ball. It was in response to this from Knicks1248.

I want you to name me one coach in this league( as far back as i could remember) that doesn't mold he's team into his style..

That is also why Fratello was brought up. He coached a totally different style in Atlanta as opposed to Cleveland.

I think you missed my point. I know why they were brought up, I'm explaining why it's not relevant. Pat Riley adjusted because he is one of the greatest coaches of all-time and he had the ability to do so. Not everyone is Pat Riley and has the ability to switch on a dime. You can still win with those coaches if you support them and get them the players you need. We know D'Antoni is not Riley so why would we not get him the players he needs. Why would we fill his roster iwth guys that do not fit his style and then demand he change? What type of organization does that? Answer, a bad one.

As for fratello. Fratello switched his style. He was also not as successful as D'Antoni and had a horrendous playoff record(losing 18 of his 20 playoff games), so why does it matter if he changed his style?

I guess it matters if someone says no one does it. My initial response also noted that D'Antoni chose the job where he wasn't being asked to change but where he also would have the roster that was least suited to his style.

I'm confused. D'Antoni chose a job where he knew they would have to gut the team and then would be given a roster that would fit his style (We can't prove this but judging by the roster Walsh gave him and the amount of input he had in to decisions this was the case). That team with Chandler and Gallo and Stoudemire was exactly suited for D'Antoni. D'Antoni had direct repsonsibility for some of those moves. Then Dolan stepped in, cleared the trade for Melo and gutted the team again. Then Walsh quit. Now we are back to doing the exact same things we did before Walsh got here, and as long as D'Antoni is fired all the fans will be satisfied until it's time to fire and ruin the reputation of the next jerkoff coach. Rinse, cycle, repeat.

Let me ask it this way. Do you think that Phil Jackson is going to ever sign here, if he is not guaranteed to get the type of team he wants?????? Do you think if we turn to PJ and say "We are going to fill the roster with who we want. YOu shut up and accept it. If we give you a bunch of idiots taht can't run the triangle offense then you need to scrap it and come up with a new style like Pat Riley and Mike Fratello would do". Do you think he would ever come here under those circumsstances??? Isn't that exactly what we just did to Mike?

The thing is that PJax might actually have the clout to get Dolan to make the correct moves for his type of personel.

If PJax was the coach and he did NOT want the Melo trade, do you think it gets done? I think not. Maybe I am giving Dolan (or Jax) too much credit but I actually believe this. PJax has a don't mess with me personality. And, I think that is what we need here.

There is only 2 guys in this league and that is Riley and Jackson.

2 THINGS

#1-This is Dolan we are talking about so how do you know Jackson will have the clout?

#2-Jackson will have choices. How do you know he is going to want to come her to work for a guy that keeps gutting the team and getting players that don't fit. You act as if it's a forgone conclusion that he will come here. He may not. Then what. What happens to the next guy that doesn't have "clout". Answer, the same goddamn thing.

Good times. Let's fire that sucker too!!!

#1 - I said "if" - I did not say I know

#2 - I did not say he will come here or that he wants to. Again I said "if". I also said that "I think/believe" - thats a big difference - of course Dolan is a crap shoot

So, if he wants to come here and if he comes here, you don't think he is a better choice? To better deal with the ego's? He should at least have a bit more clout since he's effin PHIL JACKSON, no? maybe not. Would love to see ...

That's the whole point. Jackson will not come here unless he has exactly what he needs and drives the process. But it's no secret what Dolan is like. We have ignored the pleas of coaches for a decade and ignored the advice of one of the best GM's around and run him out of town. Phil Jackson is no dummy. He sees what's going on. Good chance he will not want to be a part of it. We have to hope that someone can convince Dolan to step aside and let Phil be in charge. Otherwise we are going to have to hire someone that will have as many flaws as D'Antoni, because that is all that's left. So when that flawed coach gets here are we going to support him, or are we going to gut his team, ignore his style and then call for his head like we do with every coach. Our decade of history since JVG says we will do exactly as I fear and 3 years from now you and I. Or me and someone else will be having this same conversation I had when we did this to Chaney, Wilkens, LB and now D'Antoni. It never seems to change. That's why it has been almost 40 years for us.

Nalod wrote:great thread title. It speaks for itself: "Act like a stable franchise"!

I can't speak for Phil as well as others, but the Lakers were not always a stable front office. Jerrys Son, the idiot who was picked over the smart one (Jenny) is Dolan-like in his manner and I believe keeps Kupchak on a short leash and I saw a by-line saying Mitch might leave.

Naturally this will start some speculation about him being our next GM.

Donnie wanted to pick Mully as it would have some continued stability if Donnie got sick, or stepped down.

Lets be real, Grunwald is an Isiah man as is Woodson. Isiah looms large.

Until he is exercised from bowels of MSG and his stench is removed I am afraid Dolan will be calling the shots.

I agree that there was some movement in the front office in LA. That happens with every organization, even the great ones. But while the front office changed the coaching staff and the roster stayed relatively intact. There were not coach firings or roster gutting. 2 areas stayed stable. Some other organizations have changed the makeup of the team but kept the coaching staff and front office intact(Celtics). We have made changes to all three areas. SInce JVG left we have had what 7 coaching changes?? Seven coaching changes in 10 years. Four or five GM's and countless roster upheavals. And what do we do? We blame this all on the coach. Gotta get the coach. Fire the coach!! Anybody but Lenny, Herb, Don, LB, Isiah, Mike, Herb again!

Phil don't win every year BTW and when his teams implodes he just sits there as if to say " These dump ass players won't listen and know they are all doing it there way!"

He expects them to adjust and figure it out.

He coashes in practice and the players know what to do. They either execute or they don't.